Are atheists materialists?

[WinterBorn]

I am not taking any of this personally. I am secure in my beliefs. You are trying to make it personal. I suspect that soon you will bow out of this thread.

I am trying to understand the logic of the atheist position that they aren't materialists when their belief system does not allow for any consciousness outside of material beings.

Pardon me, but if I answer this comment you will accuse me of making this all about me.

Who says an atheist belief system does not allow for any consciousness outside of material beings.

The answer to that question lies in your answers to a few questions.

Where does that consciousness come from?

I don't know.

Has it always existed?

Do you believe all spirits are God?

I believe there is only one spirit and it is God. What you would call a Life Force.

Anything beyond that gets complicated for three dimensional beings to understand. I wouldn't expect a two dimensional being to understand a three dimensional being any better than a three dimensional being can understand a multi dimensional being.

I believe there are incorporeal things that do not originate from corporeal things.

I have no problem with your beliefs. But you seem to take issue with mine.

Where exactly do they originate from, if not from the corporeal?

As I have said, several times, I do not know.

How do you know it didn't originate from the corporeal then?

I believe it did not. That is the essence of this discussion. What we believe.

 

[WinterBorn]

No, it is about your disagreeing with a few people's stated beliefs. But I am one of the people you were talking about when you said you thought the discussion deserved its own thread. I have not tried to make it about me. I have simply answered statements made about me and my beliefs.

No. It is about the incongruity of their beliefs. Can you explain how it makes sense for an atheist to believe in a Life Force?

The term "atheist" means someone who does not believe in god. For you, god is everything incorporeal. For me it is not. It is called a difference in beliefs.

That didn't answer the question. I am looking for you to reconcile where the Life Force resides.

And I am not looking to reconcile where it resides. I believe it exists. Which, for the purposes of this discussion, is enough.

How do you know it exists?

I believe it exists.

 

[ding]

I am trying to understand the logic of the atheist position that they aren't materialists when their belief system does not allow for any consciousness outside of material beings.

Pardon me, but if I answer this comment you will accuse me of making this all about me.

Who says an atheist belief system does not allow for any consciousness outside of material beings.

The answer to that question lies in your answers to a few questions.

Where does that consciousness come from?

I don't know.

Has it always existed?

I believe there is only one spirit and it is God. What you would call a Life Force.

Anything beyond that gets complicated for three dimensional beings to understand. I wouldn't expect a two dimensional being to understand a three dimensional being any better than a three dimensional being can understand a multi dimensional being.

I believe there are incorporeal things that do not originate from corporeal things.

I have no problem with your beliefs. But you seem to take issue with mine.

Where exactly do they originate from, if not from the corporeal?

As I have said, several times, I do not know.

How do you know it didn't originate from the corporeal then?

I believe it did not. That is the essence of this discussion. What we believe.

I asked how do you know it didn't originate from the corporeal?

 

[ding]

No. It is about the incongruity of their beliefs. Can you explain how it makes sense for an atheist to believe in a Life Force?

The term "atheist" means someone who does not believe in god. For you, god is everything incorporeal. For me it is not. It is called a difference in beliefs.

That didn't answer the question. I am looking for you to reconcile where the Life Force resides.

And I am not looking to reconcile where it resides. I believe it exists. Which, for the purposes of this discussion, is enough.

How do you know it exists?

I believe it exists.

Why?

 

[WinterBorn]

Pardon me, but if I answer this comment you will accuse me of making this all about me.

Who says an atheist belief system does not allow for any consciousness outside of material beings.

The answer to that question lies in your answers to a few questions.

Where does that consciousness come from?

I don't know.

Has it always existed?

I believe there are incorporeal things that do not originate from corporeal things.

I have no problem with your beliefs. But you seem to take issue with mine.

Where exactly do they originate from, if not from the corporeal?

As I have said, several times, I do not know.

How do you know it didn't originate from the corporeal then?

I believe it did not. That is the essence of this discussion. What we believe.

I asked how do you know it didn't originate from the corporeal?

And I answered.

 

[dblack]

All materialists are atheists. Not all atheists are materialists. For example, Thomas Nagel is both an atheist philosopher and famously skeptical of materialist arguments in the philosophy of mind. I think it's generally questions about minds and consciousness that lead some atheists to reject certain materialist or physicalist views. Chalmers is another philosopher of mind who is both an atheist and not exactly a materialist. John Searle is a third.

Atheism is more closely connected to naturalism (both philosophical and methodological) than materialism.

Ultimately, atheism is simply lacking a belief in god. People end up atheists for all kinds of reasons. But let's get back to building ding's strawman!

 

[WinterBorn]

The term "atheist" means someone who does not believe in god. For you, god is everything incorporeal. For me it is not. It is called a difference in beliefs.

That didn't answer the question. I am looking for you to reconcile where the Life Force resides.

And I am not looking to reconcile where it resides. I believe it exists. Which, for the purposes of this discussion, is enough.

How do you know it exists?

I believe it exists.

Why?

Because I believe. And that answer is as valid as your answer of "I can prove it to myself, but I cannot prove it to you" when asked for proof of the existence of God.

 

[ding]

The answer to that question lies in your answers to a few questions.

Where does that consciousness come from?

I don't know.

Has it always existed?

Where exactly do they originate from, if not from the corporeal?

As I have said, several times, I do not know.

How do you know it didn't originate from the corporeal then?

I believe it did not. That is the essence of this discussion. What we believe.

I asked how do you know it didn't originate from the corporeal?

And I answered.

You did not tell me how you knew it did not originate from the corporeal.

 

[WinterBorn]

I don't know.

Has it always existed?

As I have said, several times, I do not know.

How do you know it didn't originate from the corporeal then?

I believe it did not. That is the essence of this discussion. What we believe.

I asked how do you know it didn't originate from the corporeal?

And I answered.

You did not tell me how you knew it did not originate from the corporeal.

Yes, I did. I believe that there are things incorporeal that do not originate from the corporeal.

 

[ding]

That didn't answer the question. I am looking for you to reconcile where the Life Force resides.

And I am not looking to reconcile where it resides. I believe it exists. Which, for the purposes of this discussion, is enough.

How do you know it exists?

I believe it exists.

Why?

Because I believe. And that answer is as valid as your answer of "I can prove it to myself, but I cannot prove it to you" when asked for proof of the existence of God.

So you don't know where the life force resides.

You don't know how you know it doesn't originate from the corporeal.

But you know it doesn't originate from the corporeal.

You don't know why you believe it exists.

You just believe it exists, right?

Do you have complete trust that it exists?

 

[ding]

That didn't answer the question. I am looking for you to reconcile where the Life Force resides.

And I am not looking to reconcile where it resides. I believe it exists. Which, for the purposes of this discussion, is enough.

How do you know it exists?

I believe it exists.

Why?

Because I believe. And that answer is as valid as your answer of "I can prove it to myself, but I cannot prove it to you" when asked for proof of the existence of God.

How do you prove it to yourself?

 

[WinterBorn]

And I am not looking to reconcile where it resides. I believe it exists. Which, for the purposes of this discussion, is enough.

How do you know it exists?

I believe it exists.

Why?

Because I believe. And that answer is as valid as your answer of "I can prove it to myself, but I cannot prove it to you" when asked for proof of the existence of God.

So you don't know where the life force resides.

You don't know how you know it doesn't originate from the corporeal.

But you know it doesn't originate from the corporeal.

You don't know why you believe it exists.

You just believe it exists, right?

Do you have complete trust that it exists?

I believe it exists. Isn't that enough for the purposes of this discussion?

You cannot prove the existence of God, and yet your entire belief system depends on it.

 

[WinterBorn]

And I am not looking to reconcile where it resides. I believe it exists. Which, for the purposes of this discussion, is enough.

How do you know it exists?

I believe it exists.

Why?

Because I believe. And that answer is as valid as your answer of "I can prove it to myself, but I cannot prove it to you" when asked for proof of the existence of God.

How do you prove it to yourself?

I did not say I prove it to myself. I said my belief is as valid as your claim that you can prove the existence of God to yourself but not to me.

 

[ding]

How do you know it exists?

I believe it exists.

Why?

Because I believe. And that answer is as valid as your answer of "I can prove it to myself, but I cannot prove it to you" when asked for proof of the existence of God.

So you don't know where the life force resides.

You don't know how you know it doesn't originate from the corporeal.

But you know it doesn't originate from the corporeal.

You don't know why you believe it exists.

You just believe it exists, right?

Do you have complete trust that it exists?

I believe it exists. Isn't that enough for the purposes of this discussion?

You cannot prove the existence of God, and yet your entire belief system depends on it.

I can prove it to myself. I can literally explain all the reasons I believe God exists. You will reject each and everyone but I can actually put forth a basis for belief.

So I am asking you to do that for your beliefs. And I promise I won't argue with any of them.

I do not believe you can prove to yourself why you believe a life force exists. Please share with me the basis for your beliefs.

 

[ding]

How do you know it exists?

I believe it exists.

Why?

Because I believe. And that answer is as valid as your answer of "I can prove it to myself, but I cannot prove it to you" when asked for proof of the existence of God.

How do you prove it to yourself?

I did not say I prove it to myself. I said my belief is as valid as your claim that you can prove the existence of God to yourself but not to me.

So are you admitting that you can't even prove it to yourself?

 

[WinterBorn]

I never claimed to be.

Then this isn't about you.

I never claimed it was all about me. I have simply stated what I believe. You seem determined to correct me on what I am.

But you did.

Apparently you are bothered by the fact that I do not fit your idea of what an atheist should be.

No, I did not. I did, however, address things you said. Especially things you said to, and about, me.

So you believe this is all about you then?

In the last 15 minutes you have asked 10 questions specifically aimed at me. If I answer them, based on my own beliefs, will this not be the basis for the next time you decide to accuse me of trying to make this all about me?

 

[ding]

How do you know it exists?

I believe it exists.

Why?

Because I believe. And that answer is as valid as your answer of "I can prove it to myself, but I cannot prove it to you" when asked for proof of the existence of God.

So you don't know where the life force resides.

You don't know how you know it doesn't originate from the corporeal.

But you know it doesn't originate from the corporeal.

You don't know why you believe it exists.

You just believe it exists, right?

Do you have complete trust that it exists?

I believe it exists. Isn't that enough for the purposes of this discussion?

You cannot prove the existence of God, and yet your entire belief system depends on it.

Actually no it's not. My argument is that those beliefs are incongruent.

I don't think they can be logically proven.

If the reasons for that belief cannot even be listed, it literally proves my point.

 

[WinterBorn]

I believe it exists.

Why?

Because I believe. And that answer is as valid as your answer of "I can prove it to myself, but I cannot prove it to you" when asked for proof of the existence of God.

How do you prove it to yourself?

I did not say I prove it to myself. I said my belief is as valid as your claim that you can prove the existence of God to yourself but not to me.

So are you admitting that you can't even prove it to yourself?

I have admitted nothing of the kind. YOu are the one saying that. Just like you are the one trying to make this about me.

 

[ding]

Then this isn't about you.

I never claimed it was all about me. I have simply stated what I believe. You seem determined to correct me on what I am.

But you did.

Apparently you are bothered by the fact that I do not fit your idea of what an atheist should be.

No, I did not. I did, however, address things you said. Especially things you said to, and about, me.

So you believe this is all about you then?

In the last 15 minutes you have asked 10 questions specifically aimed at me. If I answer them, based on my own beliefs, will this not be the basis for the next time you decide to accuse me of trying to make this all about me?

No. At beliefs which I believe are incongruent. They just happen to be your beliefs.

Do you have complete trust that a life force exists?

 

[ding]

Why?

Because I believe. And that answer is as valid as your answer of "I can prove it to myself, but I cannot prove it to you" when asked for proof of the existence of God.

How do you prove it to yourself?

I did not say I prove it to myself. I said my belief is as valid as your claim that you can prove the existence of God to yourself but not to me.

So are you admitting that you can't even prove it to yourself?

I have admitted nothing of the kind. YOu are the one saying that. Just like you are the one trying to make this about me.

Then prove me wrong by listing the basis for your beliefs. Explain to me why you have such complete trust that a life force exists. Can you even name one thing?