Are Christians Political Chumps for voting Republican?

[JoeB131]

[

When was the First Awakening again? The early 1700s? Isn't that about the time the Age of Enlightenment began?

Do you try to look this stupid on purpose?

Do you stop taking your meds when reality intrudes.

The First Great Awakening ENDED when European Enlightenment Ideas started making it to these wonderful shores.

And for just a bright shining Moment, Americans stopped being stupid.

It was breif... but it was amazing.

Does that mean the enlightenment only lasted 35 years?

Seriously dude, stop drinking.

• First (c. 1731–1755)
• Second (c. 1790–1840)
• Third (c. 1850–1900)
• Fourth (c. 1960–1980)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Awakening

Wow, guy, even using the MOST GENEROUS dates for the Awakenings, you STILL end up with the Revolution in that period when we were using our brains instead of our bibles.

In short. Smart Deists rejected Religious Stupid and set up a government based on EUROPEAN Enlightenment principles.

Then we got stupid and went back to the fucking Bible.

 

[rdean]

Think about it.

Assume for a moment that you are red state Christian who isn't rich or a CEO or has a stock portfolio.

You just vote for the Republicans because they are right with Jesus.

So what do you have to show for your efforts?

Abortion - Still legal after 41 years.
Creationism - Still not being taught in the Schools.
Gay Marriage- 16 states and counting
Prayer In Schools - Still ain't gonna happen.

What you did get were free trade treaties that sent your job to China and a Bank Deregulation taht left you with an underwater mortgage, but you didn't get any of those things that make Baby Jesus Cry repealled.

Look at what right wingers support:

Anti women's rights, women's libido won't let them control their bodies. GOP men need to step in.
Anti science
Anti minority, not just gay
Trying to force others to bow down to a religion clearly the "let him die" crowd don't even believe in.

You have to have policies that help the country, not take it down.

 

[hangover]

Are Christians Political Chumps for voting Republican?

Fake christians....as in antichristians.....liars smearing the word of Jesus....like screw the elderly, and fuck the poor, and greed is good.

Bump challenge for the cons...

 

[Truthmatters]

and still the dems gave us the 2 worst presidents in recent history

Reagan and Bush were(are) Republicans.

Reagan is no longer with us. Unfortunately Carter and Obama are. I'd be tickled pink to live under Reaganomics and have no idea how anyone can justify Obamanomics at this point. What more do you need to see?

Reagan raised taxes like 9 times.

you don't even know what reganomics were

 

[hangover]

Reagan and Bush were(are) Republicans.

Reagan is no longer with us. Unfortunately Carter and Obama are. I'd be tickled pink to live under Reaganomics and have no idea how anyone can justify Obamanomics at this point. What more do you need to see?

Reagan raised taxes like 9 times.

you don't even know what reganomics were

...and had $200 billion deficits every year, almost tripling the national debt. And he PROMISED to balance the budget in his first four years. That's how much cons really care about deficit spending.

 

[Iceweasel]

Reagan raised taxes like 9 times.

you don't even know what reganomics were

That's good. Now look at what the rate was when he took office and when he left and get back to us. The left clings to that as if it was meaningful.

I'll do some homework for you since you aren't honest enough to.

Ronald Reagan raised taxes 11 times? The real story | The Daily Caller
Ronald Reagan may have presided over the most significant tax reform effort in our nation’s history, yet historical revisionists are attempting to besmirch that legacy — while using him as a straw man against modern Republicans.

Saying Ronald Reagan raised taxes is like saying Michael Jordan was a guy who struck out a lot — or that he was a failed baseball player: It’s factually correct, but misleading, nonetheless.
When Democrats or media embrace Reagan for “raising taxes X number of times,” they are usually engaging in willful obfuscation. This is because they know that when most people hear the words, “tax hike,” they naturally assume you mean raising income taxes. But tax rates (both nominal and effective) dropped dramatically across-the-board during Reagan’s tenure.

Not only did the top individual income tax rate go from 70 to 28 percent! — but the tax code was also indexed for inflation (this is a big deal, because inflation had heretofore pushed people into higher tax brackets — a double whammy.)
Make no mistake, these were real tax increases — in some cases, “regressive” taxation — but they pale in comparison to the scale of the income tax cuts that defined the Reagan era. Again, it’s important to put things in context. When inaugurated, Reagan inherited a nation with 16 tax brackets — ranging from marginal rates of 14 percent to 70 percent. By 1989, that was down to two brackets — with marginal rates of 15 percent and 28 percent. (Those rates — and brackets — were short lived. By the time Clinton left office, the top marginal rate was back up to 39.6 percent. But you can’t blame Reagan for tax increases that came after his tenure. That’d be like President Obama blaming George W. Bush for tax cuts passed in 2011…)

Read more: Ronald Reagan raised taxes 11 times? The real story | The Daily Caller

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Do you stop taking your meds when reality intrudes.

The First Great Awakening ENDED when European Enlightenment Ideas started making it to these wonderful shores.

And for just a bright shining Moment, Americans stopped being stupid.

It was breif... but it was amazing.

Does that mean the enlightenment only lasted 35 years?

Seriously dude, stop drinking.

• First (c. 1731–1755)
• Second (c. 1790–1840)
• Third (c. 1850–1900)
• Fourth (c. 1960–1980)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Awakening

Wow, guy, even using the MOST GENEROUS dates for the Awakenings, you STILL end up with the Revolution in that period when we were using our brains instead of our bibles.

In short. Smart Deists rejected Religious Stupid and set up a government based on EUROPEAN Enlightenment principles.

Then we got stupid and went back to the fucking Bible.

When did we move the goal posts? I could have sworn the discussion is about the fact that the enlightenment was led just as much by religious belief as it was a new understanding of science. I n fact, I specifically made that point earlier, now all you can blather about is your sudden desperate attempt to argue that the people that argued that God wanted people to be free fought a war when you think reason triumphed over religion.

News flash, reasonable people don't fight wars over abstract ideals.

 

[JoeB131]

[q

When did we move the goal posts? I could have sworn the discussion is about the fact that the enlightenment was led just as much by religious belief as it was a new understanding of science. I n fact, I specifically made that point earlier, now all you can blather about is your sudden desperate attempt to argue that the people that argued that God wanted people to be free fought a war when you think reason triumphed over religion.

News flash, reasonable people don't fight wars over abstract ideals.

You could have sworn a lot of things, but that's probably because you need your meds adjusted.

Point was, the Founders rejected Christianity. They rejected its notions of Kings, and its ideas of state and church being one. The emulated Voltaire and Rosseau and Paine and the voices of reason.

 

[TemplarKormac]

[q

When did we move the goal posts? I could have sworn the discussion is about the fact that the enlightenment was led just as much by religious belief as it was a new understanding of science. I n fact, I specifically made that point earlier, now all you can blather about is your sudden desperate attempt to argue that the people that argued that God wanted people to be free fought a war when you think reason triumphed over religion.

News flash, reasonable people don't fight wars over abstract ideals.

You could have sworn a lot of things, but that's probably because you need your meds adjusted.

Point was, the Founders rejected Christianity. They rejected its notions of Kings, and its ideas of state and church being one. The emulated Voltaire and Rosseau and Paine and the voices of reason.

Geez, read up on your history before you profane the truth.

Upon my arrival in the United States, the religious aspect of the country was the first thing that struck my attention.

--Alexis de Tocqueville

You also forget that Benjamin Franklin rebuked the Constitutional Convention for not praying.

Mr. President
The small progress we have made after 4 or five weeks close attendance & continual reasonings with each other-our different sentiments on almost every question, several of the last producing as many noes as ays, is methinks a melancholy proof of the imperfection of the Human Understanding. We indeed seem to feel our own want of political wisdom, since we have been running about in search of it. We have gone back to ancient history for models of Government, and examined the different forms of those Republics which having been formed with the seeds of their own dissolution now no longer exist. And we have viewed Modern States all round Europe, but find none of their Constitutions suitable to our circumstances.

In this situation of this Assembly, groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when presented to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings? In the beginning of the Contest with G. Britain, when we were sensible of danger we had daily prayer in this room for the divine protection.- Our prayers, Sir, were heard, & they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? or do we imagine that we no longer need his assistance? I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth- that God Governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that "except the Lord build the House they labour in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by Human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

I therefore beg leave to move-that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the Clergy of this City be requested to officiate in that Service-

Benjamin Franklin

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/debates_628.asp

 

[natstew]

Think about it.

Assume for a moment that you are red state Christian who isn't rich or a CEO or has a stock portfolio.

You just vote for the Republicans because they are right with Jesus.

So what do you have to show for your efforts?

Abortion - Still legal after 41 years.
Creationism - Still not being taught in the Schools.
Gay Marriage- 16 states and counting
Prayer In Schools - Still ain't gonna happen.

What you did get were free trade treaties that sent your job to China and a Bank Deregulation taht left you with an underwater mortgage, but you didn't get any of those things that make Baby Jesus Cry repealled.

Democrats gave us all those things. What's your point?

 

[emilynghiem]

Are Christians Political Chumps for voting Republican?

Every day, working class Americans are chumps for voting Republican.

Where is the choice to vote for declaring both parties as
political ideologies or political religions, and separating THAT from federal govt
under the Constitution?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Their power, in the utmost bounds of it, is limited to the public good of the society. It is a power, that hath no other end but preservation, and therefore can never* have a right to destroy, enslave, or designedly to impoverish the subjects. The obligations of the law of nature cease not in society, but only in many cases are drawn closer, and have by human laws known penalties annexed to them, to inforce their observation. Thus the law of nature stands as an eternal rule to all men, legislators as well as others. The rules that they make for other men's actions, must, as well as their own and other men's actions, be conformable to the law of nature, i.e. to the will of God, of which that is a declaration, and the fundamental law of nature being the preservation of mankind, no human sanction can be good, or valid against it.

John Locke

John Locke: Second Treatise of Civil Government: Chapter 11

I will further point out, Joe, no student was to enter Yale, Harvard or Princeton without agreeing to the Westminster Confession.

Historic Church Documents at Reformed.org

 

[Quantum Windbag]

[q

When did we move the goal posts? I could have sworn the discussion is about the fact that the enlightenment was led just as much by religious belief as it was a new understanding of science. I n fact, I specifically made that point earlier, now all you can blather about is your sudden desperate attempt to argue that the people that argued that God wanted people to be free fought a war when you think reason triumphed over religion.

News flash, reasonable people don't fight wars over abstract ideals.

You could have sworn a lot of things, but that's probably because you need your meds adjusted.

Point was, the Founders rejected Christianity. They rejected its notions of Kings, and its ideas of state and church being one. The emulated Voltaire and Rosseau and Paine and the voices of reason.

That was your point? No wonder you think i am crazy.

 

[emilynghiem]

1. Abortion - Still legal after 41 years.
by the Constitution, prochoice takes precedent
because this includes both prochoice and prolife as free choices.
If laws were prolife they would preclude prochoice.
But prochoice allows both to be practiced freely so that is Constitutionally inclusive.

The Christian laws require followers to respect civil laws and authority as
legal institutions. So respecting Constitutional law that does not impose religion
is correct within Christian practices, where the teachings are promoted by free choice,
not by law which would be against the Constitution.

2. Creationism - Still not being taught in the Schools.
People have freedom to teach this and it is still taught.
People have freedom to pray in school.
What is not allowed is forcing it by govt imposition.
You can still have these in schools without religious imposition.
it's called teaching First Amendment respect for religious freedom.

I am more concerned with the Constitution being taught.
Obviously the President doesn't agree with half the nation what
the separation of powers, checks and balances, and limitation on federal
government means by reserving rights to the states and to the people.

Where is that being taught in schools, and why aren't govt leaders in agreement?

3. Gay Marriage- 16 states and counting
Marriage as a spiritual ceremony or sacrament belongs in private not the state.
Only civil contracts should be under state jurisdiction.
Both gay and straight marriage under the state violate
separation of church and state, unless people agree on policy.

4. Prayer In Schools - Still ain't gonna happen.

I'm more concerned about reforming prisons into private schools and medical treatment
programs, where people fund their own programs, pay for their own members and
restitution they owe, and take responsibility off the taxpayers and govt for problems
they could better address locally instead of imposing conflicts on the public.

Christians have been working on a LOT of these solutions themselves
through nonprofits and charitable outreach.

You don't need govt to mess up what churches and communities have done to solve their own problems. Why not direct more resources to that, and take the burden off govt?

Think about it.

Assume for a moment that you are red state Christian who isn't rich or a CEO or has a stock portfolio.

You just vote for the Republicans because they are right with Jesus.

So what do you have to show for your efforts?

Abortion - Still legal after 41 years.
Creationism - Still not being taught in the Schools.
Gay Marriage- 16 states and counting
Prayer In Schools - Still ain't gonna happen.

What you did get were free trade treaties that sent your job to China and a Bank Deregulation taht left you with an underwater mortgage, but you didn't get any of those things that make Baby Jesus Cry repealled.

 

[Mr. President]

The bottom line is Christians are getting screwed by both parties. The right uses our morality to get themselves into office to further bureaucratic means, and the left uses the message of love to excuse all kinds of bull and force us to provide social programs the country can't afford. Meh, we haven't had a good President since Eisenhower.

 

[LeftofLeft]

Christian Nation, Founded by Christians. The Founding Fathers should have made the US a Christian State much the same that Israel is a Jewish State, Saudi Arabia a Muslim State, and Cuba, a State- State. The Founding Fathers were so considerate to be inclusive of all Religions and non Religions. What that facilitated was an all out assault against Christians in the US. IMHO, The US should have been officially a Christian state Religion while welcoming all non Christian Religions and atheists.

 

[Intense]

Memorial and Remonstrance
Against Religious Assessments

James Madison

[1785]

Religious Freedom Page: Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, James Madison (1785)

 

[JoeB131]

Their power, in the utmost bounds of it, is limited to the public good of the society. It is a power, that hath no other end but preservation, and therefore can never* have a right to destroy, enslave, or designedly to impoverish the subjects. The obligations of the law of nature cease not in society, but only in many cases are drawn closer, and have by human laws known penalties annexed to them, to inforce their observation. Thus the law of nature stands as an eternal rule to all men, legislators as well as others. The rules that they make for other men's actions, must, as well as their own and other men's actions, be conformable to the law of nature, i.e. to the will of God, of which that is a declaration, and the fundamental law of nature being the preservation of mankind, no human sanction can be good, or valid against it.

John Locke

John Locke: Second Treatise of Civil Government: Chapter 11

I will further point out, Joe, no student was to enter Yale, Harvard or Princeton without agreeing to the Westminster Confession.

Historic Church Documents at Reformed.org

what does that have to do with anything?

 

[JoeB131]

Christian Nation, Founded by Christians. The Founding Fathers should have made the US a Christian State much the same that Israel is a Jewish State, Saudi Arabia a Muslim State, and Cuba, a State- State. The Founding Fathers were so considerate to be inclusive of all Religions and non Religions. What that facilitated was an all out assault against Christians in the US. IMHO, The US should have been officially a Christian state Religion while welcoming all non Christian Religions and atheists.

I love how Xians whine when they can't impose their religion on everyone else. "What, I can't put my Christmas tree in your school and make your kid sing about Jesus? WAR ON CHRISTMAS, I'M CALLING HANNITY!!!!"

You know the main reason why the DEIST founders imposed separation of Church and State on the country?

It's your wonderful habit of Christians to go after each other over petty differences in doctrine. They looked at the previous 300 years of English history and decided they wanted none of that nonsense, and good for them.

 

[JoeB131]

1. Abortion - Still legal after 41 years.
by the Constitution, prochoice takes precedent
because this includes both prochoice and prolife as free choices.
If laws were prolife they would preclude prochoice.
But prochoice allows both to be practiced freely so that is Constitutionally inclusive.

The Christian laws require followers to respect civil laws and authority as
legal institutions. So respecting Constitutional law that does not impose religion
is correct within Christian practices, where the teachings are promoted by free choice,
not by law which would be against the Constitution.

That's all nice, but your side blows up abortion clinics and shoots abortion doctors. And you are reduced to sticking ultrasound wands up a lady's who-ha to try to shame her out of getting an abortion. But really, you don't have that much to show for it.

Except a busted middle class that has probably resulted in more abortions. Good job, everyone.

2. Creationism - Still not being taught in the Schools.
People have freedom to teach this and it is still taught.
People have freedom to pray in school.
What is not allowed is forcing it by govt imposition.
You can still have these in schools without religious imposition.
it's called teaching First Amendment respect for religious freedom.

A few schools in the backwards ass red states are trying to sneak Creationism in, but mostly, it's off the cirriculum. Unfortunately, because Texas buys the most textbooks, we do have textbooks that downplay evolution, so a lot of Americans don't understand it.

And kind of understandable. Evolution means No Adam and Eve. No Adam and Eve means no Original Sin. No Original Sin means no reason for Jesus to be a complete Drama Queen and "Die for our Sins".

I am more concerned with the Constitution being taught.
Obviously the President doesn't agree with half the nation what
the separation of powers, checks and balances, and limitation on federal
government means by reserving rights to the states and to the people.

Where is that being taught in schools, and why aren't govt leaders in agreement?

But, but, but Obama.

Can we try to keep on topic here?

3. Gay Marriage- 16 states and counting
Marriage as a spiritual ceremony or sacrament belongs in private not the state.
Only civil contracts should be under state jurisdiction.
Both gay and straight marriage under the state violate
separation of church and state, unless people agree on policy.

Frankly, you guys had no problem with "Civil Marriage" until the courts and legislatures started telling you that you had to let Gays have them. Now you want to burn down the country club rather than let "those people" join.

4. Prayer In Schools - Still ain't gonna happen.

I'm more concerned about reforming prisons into private schools and medical treatment
programs, where people fund their own programs, pay for their own members and
restitution they owe, and take responsibility off the taxpayers and govt for problems
they could better address locally instead of imposing conflicts on the public.

Actuall, you probably need to pay a bit more attention here. We lock up 2 million people while most industrialized countries lock up less than 100K, because big corporations that really run the GOP have found ways to make prisons into profit centers.

So we end up locking up the kid with the bag of weed in the same cell as a rapist, and wonder why we've made him dysfunctional for life.

Christians have been working on a LOT of these solutions themselves
through nonprofits and charitable outreach.

You don't need govt to mess up what churches and communities have done to solve their own problems. Why not direct more resources to that, and take the burden off govt?

[]

Except that if the Churches were capable of "solving" the problems, you wouldn't need government. A more accurate statement is that Churches do a little bit so it's members feel better about themselves before going home and whining about "them welfare people" and "these taxes".