Atmospheric CO2 radiation

[CrusaderFrank]

HE debunked NOTHING.. He made an assumption that is not based in observed fact.

It's not debatable that molecules almost never lose vibrational energy in collisions.

Thus, your PSI cult physics is debunked.

Can you find a single actual physicist who supports your kook fantasy physics? No, you can't. That would be because you just made everything up.

You have lab work that shows this additional 95 watts? What? You don't?

 

[Billy_Bob]

HE debunked NOTHING.. He made an assumption that is not based in observed fact.

It's not debatable that molecules almost never lose vibrational energy in collisions.

Thus, your PSI cult physics is debunked.

Can you find a single actual physicist who supports your kook fantasy physics? No, you can't. That would be because you just made everything up.

You have lab work that shows this additional 95 watts? What? You don't?

IF the atmosphere were 1,500 deg K his 1m^2 could radiate at 95W/s. Right from the start the whole premise falls apart..

 

[Wuwei]

So why don't we make internal combustion engine that run on the heat trapped by CO2? Why isn't there one single , repeatable lab experiment that replicates your "theory"?

The CO2 laser is a tube filled with gases. The vibration states of some of the gases must be long-lived otherwise the laser would not work. The laser is hot with a plethora of collisions. Yet the collisions don't quench those vibration states. The literature is full of CO2 laser analysis both empirical and theoretical that demonstrate that almost all collisions are elastic.

Carbon dioxide laser - Wikipedia
The filling gas within the discharge tube consists of around 10–0% carbon dioxide (CO2), around 10–20% nitrogen (N2), a few percent hydrogen (H2) and/or xenon (Xe) (usually only used in a sealed tube), and the remainder of the gas mixture helium (He)

.

 

[Wuwei]

IF the atmosphere were 1,500 deg K his 1m^2 could radiate at 95W/s. Right from the start the whole premise falls apart..

The major reason that CO2 maintains it's vibration modes is that at 15 C the air is not energetic enough to quench vibrations by collisions. At 1500 K the entire calculation changes. Inelastic collision probabilities are much higher and quenching is more probable.

Look at the "REACTION" column in the table in your post #10. You will see that it refers to an entirely different vibration state than the 15 micron.

You will also see that at 1500K Einsteins "A" coefficient is 34.8/sec The reciprocal is the life time which is 0.029 sec. That is already an order of magnitude less than that at 15C.

You should pay more attention to what the tables mean when you cite them.

.

 

[SSDD]

So why don't we make internal combustion engine that run on the heat trapped by CO2? Why isn't there one single , repeatable lab experiment that replicates your "theory"?

The CO2 laser is a tube filled with gases. The vibration states of some of the gases must be long-lived otherwise the laser would not work. The laser is hot with a plethora of collisions. Yet the collisions don't quench those vibration states. The literature is full of CO2 laser analysis both empirical and theoretical that demonstrate that almost all collisions are elastic.

Carbon dioxide laser - Wikipedia
The filling gas within the discharge tube consists of around 10–0% carbon dioxide (CO2), around 10–20% nitrogen (N2), a few percent hydrogen (H2) and/or xenon (Xe) (usually only used in a sealed tube), and the remainder of the gas mixture helium (He)

.

Dr Happer explains that...of course you have been shown this before, but being a liar who will say anything in an attempt to make a point, you would certainly omit the truth...even though you know it...

[YES, THE AMOUNT OF RADIATION EMITTED BY GREENHOUSE MOLECULES DEPENDS ALMOST ENTIRELY ON THEIR TEMPERATURE. THE PERTRUBATION BY RADIATION COMING FROM THE GROUND OR OUTER SPACE IS NEGLIGIBLE. CO2 LASER BUILDERS GO OUT OF THEIR WAY WITH CUNNING DISCHARE PHYSICS TO GET THE CO2 MOLECULES OUT OF THERMAL EQUILIBRIUM SO THEY CAN AMPLIFY RADIATION.]

Certainly nothing that happens out in the atmosphere...

This is just one more shiny object that you grasp on to like a drowning man grasps a piece of flotsam in yet another attempt to rationalize your belief in magic...

 

[CrusaderFrank]

So why don't we make internal combustion engine that run on the heat trapped by CO2? Why isn't there one single , repeatable lab experiment that replicates your "theory"?

The CO2 laser is a tube filled with gases. The vibration states of some of the gases must be long-lived otherwise the laser would not work. The laser is hot with a plethora of collisions. Yet the collisions don't quench those vibration states. The literature is full of CO2 laser analysis both empirical and theoretical that demonstrate that almost all collisions are elastic.

Carbon dioxide laser - Wikipedia
The filling gas within the discharge tube consists of around 10–0% carbon dioxide (CO2), around 10–20% nitrogen (N2), a few percent hydrogen (H2) and/or xenon (Xe) (usually only used in a sealed tube), and the remainder of the gas mixture helium (He)

.

I read the article and it continues:

"The population inversion in the laser is achieved by the following sequence: electron impact excites the {v1(1)} vibrational mode quantum state of the nitrogen. Because nitrogen is a homonuclear molecule, it cannot lose this energy by photon emission, and its excited vibrational modes are therefore metastable and relatively long-lived. N
2{v1(1)} and CO2{v3(1)} being nearly perfectly resonant (total molecular energy differential is within 3 cm-1 when accounting for N2 anharmonicity, centrifugal distortion and vibro-rotational interaction, which is more than made up for by the Maxwell speed distribution of translational-mode energy), N2 collisionally de-excites by transferring its vibrational mode energy to the CO2 molecule, causing the carbon dioxide to excite to its {v3(1)} (asymmetric stretch) vibrational mode quantum state"

It reads to me that it's Nitrogen that traps the energy, not CO2.

Please advise.

 

[SSDD]

So why don't we make internal combustion engine that run on the heat trapped by CO2? Why isn't there one single , repeatable lab experiment that replicates your "theory"?

The CO2 laser is a tube filled with gases. The vibration states of some of the gases must be long-lived otherwise the laser would not work. The laser is hot with a plethora of collisions. Yet the collisions don't quench those vibration states. The literature is full of CO2 laser analysis both empirical and theoretical that demonstrate that almost all collisions are elastic.

Carbon dioxide laser - Wikipedia
The filling gas within the discharge tube consists of around 10–0% carbon dioxide (CO2), around 10–20% nitrogen (N2), a few percent hydrogen (H2) and/or xenon (Xe) (usually only used in a sealed tube), and the remainder of the gas mixture helium (He)

.

I read the article and it continues:

"The population inversion in the laser is achieved by the following sequence: electron impact excites the {v1(1)} vibrational mode quantum state of the nitrogen. Because nitrogen is a homonuclear molecule, it cannot lose this energy by photon emission, and its excited vibrational modes are therefore metastable and relatively long-lived. N
2{v1(1)} and CO2{v3(1)} being nearly perfectly resonant (total molecular energy differential is within 3 cm-1 when accounting for N2 anharmonicity, centrifugal distortion and vibro-rotational interaction, which is more than made up for by the Maxwell speed distribution of translational-mode energy), N2 collisionally de-excites by transferring its vibrational mode energy to the CO2 molecule, causing the carbon dioxide to excite to its {v3(1)} (asymmetric stretch) vibrational mode quantum state"

It reads to me that it's Nitrogen that traps the energy, not CO2.

Please advise.

A more complete description of Dr. Happer's cursory statement regarding the workings of CO2 lasers when questioned on the topic...


" YES, THE AMOUNT OF RADIATION EMITTED BY GREENHOUSE MOLECULES DEPENDS ALMOST ENTIRELY ON THEIR TEMPERATURE. THE PERTRUBATION BY RADIATION COMING FROM THE GROUND OR OUTER SPACE IS NEGLIGIBLE. CO2 LASER BUILDERS GO OUT OF THEIR WAY WITH CUNNING DISCHARGE PHYSICS TO GET THE CO2 MOLECULES OUT OF THERMAL EQUILIBRIUM SO THEY CAN AMPLIFY RADIATION."

 

[Billy_Bob]

N2 collisionally de-excites by transferring its vibrational mode energy to the CO2 molecule, causing the carbon dioxide to excite to its {v3(1)} (asymmetric stretch) vibrational mode quantum state"

Here is the key.. The N2 loses its energy by collision with CO2, not emission. The energy is then transferred to CO2 kinetically which can do nothing with it, except emit it. That is why a CO2 laser can create the energy output it does. Without N2 to cause the reaction nothing happens..

The experiment clearly shows that CO2 is driven by collisions, not by emissions. The Stretching Mode of transmission does not allow for warming of the CO2 molecule. Everything the OP states is contradicted in his cited paper and shows his premise to be an abject failure.

 

[Wuwei]

Dr Happer explains that...of course you have been shown this before, but being a liar who will say anything in an attempt to make a point, you would certainly omit the truth...even though you know it...

[YES, THE AMOUNT OF RADIATION EMITTED BY GREENHOUSE MOLECULES DEPENDS ALMOST ENTIRELY ON THEIR TEMPERATURE. THE PERTRUBATION BY RADIATION COMING FROM THE GROUND OR OUTER SPACE IS NEGLIGIBLE. CO2 LASER BUILDERS GO OUT OF THEIR WAY WITH CUNNING DISCHARE PHYSICS TO GET THE CO2 MOLECULES OUT OF THERMAL EQUILIBRIUM SO THEY CAN AMPLIFY RADIATION.]

Certainly nothing that happens out in the atmosphere...

Yes, the atmosphere certainly isn't a laser. My point was that long lived vibrations states are not easily quenched by collisions. CO2 lasers also illustrate that point.

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[Wuwei]

A more complete description of Dr. Happer's cursory statement regarding the workings of CO2 lasers when questioned on the topic...

" YES, THE AMOUNT OF RADIATION EMITTED BY GREENHOUSE MOLECULES DEPENDS ALMOST ENTIRELY ON THEIR TEMPERATURE. THE PERTRUBATION BY RADIATION COMING FROM THE GROUND OR OUTER SPACE IS NEGLIGIBLE. CO2 LASER BUILDERS GO OUT OF THEIR WAY WITH CUNNING DISCHARGE PHYSICS TO GET THE CO2 MOLECULES OUT OF THERMAL EQUILIBRIUM SO THEY CAN AMPLIFY RADIATION."

Yes, the CO2 molecules are hard to get out of equilibrium.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

A more complete description of Dr. Happer's cursory statement regarding the workings of CO2 lasers when questioned on the topic...

" YES, THE AMOUNT OF RADIATION EMITTED BY GREENHOUSE MOLECULES DEPENDS ALMOST ENTIRELY ON THEIR TEMPERATURE. THE PERTRUBATION BY RADIATION COMING FROM THE GROUND OR OUTER SPACE IS NEGLIGIBLE. CO2 LASER BUILDERS GO OUT OF THEIR WAY WITH CUNNING DISCHARGE PHYSICS TO GET THE CO2 MOLECULES OUT OF THERMAL EQUILIBRIUM SO THEY CAN AMPLIFY RADIATION."

Yes, the CO2 molecules are hard to get out of equilibrium.

They don't trap heat either apparently

 

[SSDD]

A more complete description of Dr. Happer's cursory statement regarding the workings of CO2 lasers when questioned on the topic...

" YES, THE AMOUNT OF RADIATION EMITTED BY GREENHOUSE MOLECULES DEPENDS ALMOST ENTIRELY ON THEIR TEMPERATURE. THE PERTRUBATION BY RADIATION COMING FROM THE GROUND OR OUTER SPACE IS NEGLIGIBLE. CO2 LASER BUILDERS GO OUT OF THEIR WAY WITH CUNNING DISCHARGE PHYSICS TO GET THE CO2 MOLECULES OUT OF THERMAL EQUILIBRIUM SO THEY CAN AMPLIFY RADIATION."

Yes, the CO2 molecules are hard to get out of equilibrium.

They don't trap heat either apparently

He believes that the second law of thermodynamics is merely a recommendation of how energy should behave.

 

[fncceo]

A Joule is equal to one watt of power delivered over 1 second of time

Or... one watt per second.

 

[Wuwei]

He believes that the second law of thermodynamics is merely a recommendation of how energy should behave.

Now, now, don't go spreading lies. I believe that no process ever violates the well known properties of entropy.

.

 

[Wuwei]

BWHAAAAaaaaaaaa..

Oh my gawd.... Not this crap again..

Looks like Bill needs to whip out his crayons and deal with the BS... Lets tear this fallacy apart brick by brick...

I have been waiting for over a week, but as it is you have no credible counterargument. Billy, you seemed so confident that you could “tear the OP fallacy apart.” But you failed. You stated a lot of things which were BS, or that had nothing to do with the OP, or were lies, or had units confused. You have not successfully answered the points that I made. The irony is that you got a lot of approval ratings from SSDD, CrusaderFrank, westwall, Sunsettommy. None of them understood what they were “approving”.

Your posts are replete with Gish Gallop. This is exactly what you did, and your audience fell for it.

Urban Dictionary: Gish Gallop

1) The factual and logical content of the Gish Gallop is pure bullshit and anybody knowledgeable and informed on the subject would recognize it as such almost instantly. That is, the Gish Gallop is designed to appeal to and deceive precisely those sorts of people who are most in need of honest factual education.​

These points you have left unanswered:

Post #6:
You said I was using “down-welling radiation.”
I was using nothing of the sort. I never used the phrase.

You said “you divide your wattage by the total number of seconds it is applied to derive Joules. If you are determining wattage output you multiply.”
That is absolutely wrong. When computing watts from Joules the conversion is Watts = Joules divided by Seconds.

watt

watt - a unit of power equal to 1 joule per second ​

Post #7
You said, “With that number of collisions the energy contained is removed KINETICALLY, not by emission. ”
You think none of the collisions are elastic when the OP gives a reference that says almost all are.

You said, “You make no attempt to even calculate the proper collision rate and bending blunt rate. You make a wild ass assumption and post it as fact.
There was no “wild ass guess” You didn't understand the OP because I indeed included references for that. “blunt rate” is not a physics term. Look it up. It refers to a rolled joint.

Post #9
You said, “The JPL (Air force Jet Propulsion Laboratory) indicted that they did not know CO2's bend blunting rate and were unable to determine it “
In the paragraph you cite, they were never trying to determine the “blunt rate”. Blunt rate is a phrase you made up. They were talking about radiation transfer of around 1500K degrees. That is totally different than anything that can happen at 15C degrees. That is a major confusion.

Post #10
Table IIIb has nothing to do with the OP. That should have been obvious to you. Yet you say, “This is the temperature of rocket exhaust not the earths atmosphere.“ Of course it is. Your reference to that is ludicrous.

Post #11
I explicitly posted data on the collision rate at 15C, and I gave you a reference. So your statement “A wild assumption not supported by your posted data.” is totally wrong.

Post #12
You said the lifetime of the bending mode of the 15 micron radiation is 2.98 per second. That is not a life time! That is a rate! A lifetime has the units of seconds, not 1/seconds. That is the second time you screwed up units. The amazing thing is that you doubled down on that error in a later post.

Post #32
You said, “JPL and Dr Blauer show, by empirical experiment that CO2 was only emitting 1 in 300,000,000 photons in the 14.98um band.”
That was not in their paper at all! You made that up, otherwise tell me the paragraph where that was said.

.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Where's the lab work showing the temperature increase from increasing CO2 from 280 to 400 ppm?

 

[Billy_Bob]

BWHAAAAaaaaaaaa..

Oh my gawd.... Not this crap again..

Looks like Bill needs to whip out his crayons and deal with the BS... Lets tear this fallacy apart brick by brick...

I have been waiting for over a week, but as it is you have no credible counterargument. Billy, you seemed so confident that you could “tear the OP fallacy apart.” But you failed. You stated a lot of things which were BS, or that had nothing to do with the OP, or were lies, or had units confused. You have not successfully answered the points that I made. The irony is that you got a lot of approval ratings from SSDD, CrusaderFrank, westwall, Sunsettommy. None of them understood what they were “approving”.

Your posts are replete with Gish Gallop. This is exactly what you did, and your audience fell for it.

Urban Dictionary: Gish Gallop

1) The factual and logical content of the Gish Gallop is pure bullshit and anybody knowledgeable and informed on the subject would recognize it as such almost instantly. That is, the Gish Gallop is designed to appeal to and deceive precisely those sorts of people who are most in need of honest factual education.​

These points you have left unanswered:

Post #6:
You said I was using “down-welling radiation.”
I was using nothing of the sort. I never used the phrase.

You said “you divide your wattage by the total number of seconds it is applied to derive Joules. If you are determining wattage output you multiply.”
That is absolutely wrong. When computing watts from Joules the conversion is Watts = Joules divided by Seconds.

watt

watt - a unit of power equal to 1 joule per second ​

Post #7
You said, “With that number of collisions the energy contained is removed KINETICALLY, not by emission. ”
You think none of the collisions are elastic when the OP gives a reference that says almost all are.

You said, “You make no attempt to even calculate the proper collision rate and bending blunt rate. You make a wild ass assumption and post it as fact.
There was no “wild ass guess” You didn't understand the OP because I indeed included references for that. “blunt rate” is not a physics term. Look it up. It refers to a rolled joint.

Post #9
You said, “The JPL (Air force Jet Propulsion Laboratory) indicted that they did not know CO2's bend blunting rate and were unable to determine it “
In the paragraph you cite, they were never trying to determine the “blunt rate”. Blunt rate is a phrase you made up. They were talking about radiation transfer of around 1500K degrees. That is totally different than anything that can happen at 15C degrees. That is a major confusion.

Post #10
Table IIIb has nothing to do with the OP. That should have been obvious to you. Yet you say, “This is the temperature of rocket exhaust not the earths atmosphere.“ Of course it is. Your reference to that is ludicrous.

Post #11
I explicitly posted data on the collision rate at 15C, and I gave you a reference. So your statement “A wild assumption not supported by your posted data.” is totally wrong.

Post #12
You said the lifetime of the bending mode of the 15 micron radiation is 2.98 per second. That is not a life time! That is a rate! A lifetime has the units of seconds, not 1/seconds. That is the second time you screwed up units. The amazing thing is that you doubled down on that error in a later post.

Post #32
You said, “JPL and Dr Blauer show, by empirical experiment that CO2 was only emitting 1 in 300,000,000 photons in the 14.98um band.”
That was not in their paper at all! You made that up, otherwise tell me the paragraph where that was said.

.

LOL....

Your ignorance of this subject is stunning... I've given up arguing with idiots..

 

[Wuwei]

LOL....

Your ignorance of this subject is stunning... I've given up arguing with idiots..

So, Gish Gallop it is. I don't blame you for running away. You have nothing left that has any merit; not even your final volley of insults.

.

 

[SSDD]

LOL....

Your ignorance of this subject is stunning... I've given up arguing with idiots..

So, Gish Gallop it is. I don't blame you for running away. You have nothing left that has any merit; not even your final volley of insults.

.

Keep telling yourself that...you and the emperor.....beautiful clothes...

 

[Wuwei]

LOL....

Your ignorance of this subject is stunning... I've given up arguing with idiots..

So, Gish Gallop it is. I don't blame you for running away. You have nothing left that has any merit; not even your final volley of insults.

.

Keep telling yourself that...you and the emperor.....beautiful clothes...

So you want to join Billy in his lack of any cogent response? Go ahead and wear his new emperor's clothes too. It becomes you.

.