Can the Federal Government Constitutionally redistribute wealth?

[Dad2three]

So when was the 16th amended to allow more people to be taxed?

You do realize the 16th was the ABILITY to tax AND the tax fell mainly on the 1%ers till WW 2 right , even post WW2 the rich carried a MUCH larger burden than the avg guy, the opposite of today thanks to the GOP/Reaganomics

 

[saveliberty]

So when was the 16th amended to allow more people to be taxed?

You do realize the 16th was the ABILITY to tax AND the tax fell mainly on the 1%ers till WW 2 right , even post WW2 the rich carried a MUCH larger burden than the avg guy, the opposite of today thanks to the GOP/Reaganomics

No, you clearly stated the 16th taxed only the top 1%. Now you waffle and say it is the ability to tax (income when you finally/ if you decide to be honest). That pretty much negated your point.

 

[Dad2three]

To spend on whatever your heart desires because it's a living document. Isn't that sweet.................

Who's paying the bills..............and who gets to pay it back as we continue to live beyond our means.....................

Kick the can as always.

Weird you don't recognize 90%+ of current debt can be traced backed to Reagan, Bush and Bush POLICIES. I guess 'starving the beast' is working as planned. Dubya took US to Korean war levels of revenues AS he took US to 2 UNFUNDED wars and gave US Medicare expansion that costs as much as Obamacares this decade which was 100% funded


Yep, Obama has US back NEAR Reagan levels of revenues, 18% of GDP, of course Carter/Clinton had US at 20%

 

[Dad2three]

How original.

And relevant.

Only Aselclaps or whatever the hell his name is - rivals you in intellect. Very impressive.

Got it, so again you can't be honest. I'm shocked

 

[Dad2three]

SCOTUS does not interpret the Constitution, it applies it.

lol, MORON

 

[Dad2three]

Ah yes, Hamilton:

“Safety from external danger is the most powerful director of national conduct. Even the ardent love of liberty will, after a time, give way to its dictates. The violent destruction of life and property incident to war, the continual effort and alarm attendant on a state of continual danger, will compel nations the most attached to liberty to resort for repose and security to institutions which have a tendency to destroy their civil and political rights. To be more safe, they at length become willing to run the risk of being less free.”
― Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers

“The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed.”
― Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers

“The complete independence of the courts of justice is peculiarly essential in a limited Constitution. By a limited Constitution, I understand one which contains certain specified exceptions to the legislative authority .... Limitations of this kind can be preserved in practice no other way than through the medium of courts of justice, whose duty it must be to declare all acts contrary to the manifest tenor of the Constitution void. Without this, all the reservations of particular rights or privileges would amount to nothing.”
― Alexander Hamilton

“To all general purposes we have uniformly been one people each individual citizen everywhere enjoying the same national rights, privileges, and protection.”
― Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers

Federalists papers were just propaganda to sell US on the BIG FED GOV'T over the limited Articles you know that right? AND the Big Federal Gov't guys won

 

[Dad2three]

I hear ya....

Is that Rushblo there behind the curtain?

 

[saveliberty]

So when was the 16th amended to allow more people to be taxed?

You do realize the 16th was the ABILITY to tax AND the tax fell mainly on the 1%ers till WW 2 right , even post WW2 the rich carried a MUCH larger burden than the avg guy, the opposite of today thanks to the GOP/Reaganomics

The United States has the third highest general top marginal corporate income tax rate in the world at 39.1 percent, exceeded only by Chad and the United Arab Emirates.
Allocation of the Tax Burden by Income Class Tax Foundation


Middle-class households that earned between $34,300 and $141,900 paid 50.5 percent of all federal tax revenues in 2007 (the most recent year analyzed), according to the CBO study released Thursday, and households that earned between $34,300 and $352,900 paid 66.7 percent of all federal taxes.

Households in the top 1 percent for annual income (those earning more than $352,900) paid a healthy 28.1 percent of all federal taxes, but households in the lower income brackets paid relatively little. Those earning less than $34,300 paid only 5.2 percent of all federal taxes, and those earning less than $20,500 carried almost none of the federal tax burden (just 0.8 percent of the total) in 2007.

Middle Class--Not the Rich or the Poor--Pay Majority of Federal Taxes Says CBO Data CNS News

Guess you have to define rich.

 

[saveliberty]

Ah yes, Hamilton:

“Safety from external danger is the most powerful director of national conduct. Even the ardent love of liberty will, after a time, give way to its dictates. The violent destruction of life and property incident to war, the continual effort and alarm attendant on a state of continual danger, will compel nations the most attached to liberty to resort for repose and security to institutions which have a tendency to destroy their civil and political rights. To be more safe, they at length become willing to run the risk of being less free.”
― Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers

“The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed.”
― Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers

“The complete independence of the courts of justice is peculiarly essential in a limited Constitution. By a limited Constitution, I understand one which contains certain specified exceptions to the legislative authority .... Limitations of this kind can be preserved in practice no other way than through the medium of courts of justice, whose duty it must be to declare all acts contrary to the manifest tenor of the Constitution void. Without this, all the reservations of particular rights or privileges would amount to nothing.”
― Alexander Hamilton

“To all general purposes we have uniformly been one people each individual citizen everywhere enjoying the same national rights, privileges, and protection.”
― Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers

Federalists papers were just propaganda to sell US on the BIG FED GOV'T over the limited Articles you know that right? AND the Big Federal Gov't guys won

You were around back then huh? lol

Troll or buffoon, still trying to decide where dad2three falls.

 

[dcraelin]

According to that ruling the feds can hit everyone with a federal use tax on anything not permanently connected to the ground. It is a great exercise in circular reasoning, now I know where Roberts got it for the ACA. It can't be apportioned so it can't be a direct tax. Give me a freaking break.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/3/171/case.html

 

[dcraelin]

NOw I cant type unless I erase the original quote....great great new system.

THis is in reply to a post by oktexas

It is not circular reasoning at all.

If the framers were logical they wouldnt say direct taxes have to be apportioned if they couldnt be apportioned.

If they wanted to outlaw a certain type of tax they would have just said so.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

unfunded wars may the most asinine thing every written

 

[Dad2three]

The United States has the third highest general top marginal corporate income tax rate in the world at 39.1 percent, exceeded only by Chad and the United Arab Emirates.
Allocation of the Tax Burden by Income Class Tax Foundation


Middle-class households that earned between $34,300 and $141,900 paid 50.5 percent of all federal tax revenues in 2007 (the most recent year analyzed), according to the CBO study released Thursday, and households that earned between $34,300 and $352,900 paid 66.7 percent of all federal taxes.

Households in the top 1 percent for annual income (those earning more than $352,900) paid a healthy 28.1 percent of all federal taxes, but households in the lower income brackets paid relatively little. Those earning less than $34,300 paid only 5.2 percent of all federal taxes, and those earning less than $20,500 carried almost none of the federal tax burden (just 0.8 percent of the total) in 2007.

Middle Class--Not the Rich or the Poor--Pay Majority of Federal Taxes Says CBO Data CNS News

Guess you have to define rich.

DIDN'T SEE THIS:

"even post WW2 the rich carried a MUCH larger burden than the avg guy, the opposite of today thanks to the GOP/Reaganomics"


Can the Federal Government Constitutionally redistribute wealth Page 18 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

WHO GIVES A FUCK ABOUT MARGINAL RATES???

Congressional Research Service Report On Tax Cuts For Wealthy


However, the top tax rate reductions appear to be associated with the increasing concentration of income at the top of the income distribution. As measured by IRS data, the share of income accruing to the top 0.1% of U.S. families increased from 4.2% in 1945 to 12.3% by 2007 before falling to 9.2% due to the 2007-2009 recession. At the same time, the average tax rate paid by the top 0.1% fell from over 50% in 1945 to about 25% in 2009. Tax policy could have a relation to how the economic pie is sliced—lower top tax rates may be associated with greater income disparities.

Nonpartisan Study: No Proof That Tax Cuts For Wealthy Lead To Economic Growth -

Nonpartisan Study No Proof That Tax Cuts For Wealthy Lead To Economic Growth Democratic Policy Communications Center


CBO: Fed tax rates hit historic low

The average tax rates for American households reached a historical low in 2009, according to a report issued by the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office.

Indeed, federal taxes for American households averaged 17.4 percent in 2009, a historical low over the 1979 to 2009 period.

WEIRD, WASN'T THAT WHEN THE TP (BIRCHERS) WERE FORMED?


CBO Fed tax rates hit historic low - Tim Mak - POLITICO.com

From 1992 to 2007 the top 400 earners in the U.S. saw their income increase 392% and their average tax rate reduced by 37%

It s the Inequality Stupid Mother Jones


It's the Inequality, Stupid


The fortunate 400

400 tax returns reporting the highest incomes in 2009.

Six American families paid no federal income taxes in 2009 while making something on the order of $200 million each.


another 110 families paid 15 percent or less in federal income taxes.
The fortunate 400 David Cay Johnston Reuters

The 400 richest Americans used to pay 30% of their income on the average to Uncle Sam(but 55% in 1955).



Your taxes are really low, in one chart

The average filer saw her effective tax rate drop from 22 percent in 1979 to 18.1 percent in 2010

Your taxes are really low in one chart - The Washington Post


Tax bills in 2009 at lowest level since 1950


Federal, state and local income taxes consumed 9.2% of all personal income in 2009, the lowest rate since 1950

Tax bills in 2009 at lowest level since 1950 - USATODAY.com

 

[Dad2three]

unfunded wars may the most asinine thing every written

I'm sure the GOPers will come up with a funding mechanism for them soon, right? As soon as they get rid of the UNFUNDED tax cuts they passed or fund the UNFUNDED Medicare expansion they had!

Name ONE nation to EVER cut taxes when you went to war, besides Dubya/GOP's? lol

 

[AntiParty]

The federal government has a constitutional role to set the tax structure.

If it results in a redistribution of wealth......so be it

No shit...it's been redistributed UP for the last 30 or so years...

Are you saying that Rich people are taking advantage of the poor and uneducated through media sources and other ensuring that they don't have to pay workers in America a fair wage so they can hit the top richest in America profiles?

I'm sure Fox News isn't just a medi

The Constitution enumerates the powers of the Federal government. Then to make it clear that those are the only powers the Federal government has, they wrote the 10th amendment, which says anything the Federal government is not authorized to do, it is prohibited from doing. And to go even further, they said any right of the people not protected in the Bill of Rights or other amendments is as important as any right that is protected in the Bill of Rights or other amendments.

Which means, protecting people from having their wealth confiscated and redistributed, which is clearly not in the constitution, is as important as have our speech restricted or our property searched without a warrant.

So, for those of you who consider it to be a legitimate use of Federal force to redistribute wealth, what Constitutional authority is that based on? Be specific.

EDIT: Redistribution of wealth refers specifically to taking money from one citizen and giving it to another. That means, at the Federal level, all forms of welfare including food stamps, AFDC, social security, medicare/medicaid, earmarks. All things which specifically take money from one citizen and place them directly in the hands of another.

It does not include the military, courts, national parks, anything that is for the general welfare, not specific welfare.

I voted "yes" because I unlike you understand the principle we are discussing here.

The PEOPLE have the right to vote yes on taxation no matter what the issue and all taxation is a redistribution of wealth. Sometimes we benefit from it, sometimes we don't. But in balance, we should benefit from it most of the time.

I know the Libertarian and Tea Party bias political noobs want to think we aren't allowed to vote for " 3 meals a day for a blind person" but sorry to burst your bubble, We The People can.

Not it's time for these parties to discuss if they want to vote for the spending on the actual issues, or want to police the people that take advantage of a flawed system driven by bias idiots that are unwilling to close loopholes and want to Nix it instead of Fix it......

MANY Americans along with me voted to provide meals for blind people and deaf people. It's time for you to stop attacking with a blanket approach and understand the American Constitution.

THE PEOPLE RUN AMERICA, NOT YOU, NOT THE CONSTITUTION. If the people want change, they can Change the Constitution, let's not let it come to that. Let's use some common sense first. ..

(Also, curious why people still don't know the Constitution can change and why people think Government Controls people and not the People controlling government....)

You want the Constitution changed see Article 5, you don't just ignore what it says. You also seem to confuse federal functions, which is to maintain a union of independent States, with State functions, which are to take care of their people.

I never stated I wanted the Constitution changed kiddo. I simply stated it CAN be changed through the correct process.. Also, the Congress works for the people. I know there has been a wave of "small government" types stating the Congress knows what's better for people than the people, guessing you are a part of that wave.

No where did I mention states vs. nation...you just ran off the road on that statement. Especially when you stated "State functions are to take care of their people" which solidifies what I said and puts you on the side of "Yes, you believe in redistribution of wealth".

Thanks...heh

 

[AntiParty]

The Constitution enumerates the powers of the Federal government. Then to make it clear that those are the only powers the Federal government has, they wrote the 10th amendment, which says anything the Federal government is not authorized to do, it is prohibited from doing. And to go even further, they said any right of the people not protected in the Bill of Rights or other amendments is as important as any right that is protected in the Bill of Rights or other amendments.

Which means, protecting people from having their wealth confiscated and redistributed, which is clearly not in the constitution, is as important as have our speech restricted or our property searched without a warrant.

So, for those of you who consider it to be a legitimate use of Federal force to redistribute wealth, what Constitutional authority is that based on? Be specific.

EDIT: Redistribution of wealth refers specifically to taking money from one citizen and giving it to another. That means, at the Federal level, all forms of welfare including food stamps, AFDC, social security, medicare/medicaid, earmarks. All things which specifically take money from one citizen and place them directly in the hands of another.

It does not include the military, courts, national parks, anything that is for the general welfare, not specific welfare.

I voted "yes" because I unlike you understand the principle we are discussing here.

The PEOPLE have the right to vote yes on taxation no matter what the issue and all taxation is a redistribution of wealth. Sometimes we benefit from it, sometimes we don't. But in balance, we should benefit from it most of the time.

I know the Libertarian and Tea Party bias political noobs want to think we aren't allowed to vote for " 3 meals a day for a blind person" but sorry to burst your bubble, We The People can.

Not it's time for these parties to discuss if they want to vote for the spending on the actual issues, or want to police the people that take advantage of a flawed system driven by bias idiots that are unwilling to close loopholes and want to Nix it instead of Fix it......

MANY Americans along with me voted to provide meals for blind people and deaf people. It's time for you to stop attacking with a blanket approach and understand the American Constitution.

THE PEOPLE RUN AMERICA, NOT YOU, NOT THE CONSTITUTION. If the people want change, they can Change the Constitution, let's not let it come to that. Let's use some common sense first. ..

(Also, curious why people still don't know the Constitution can change and why people think Government Controls people and not the People controlling government....)

When did the people vote for higher taxes?

Where in the Constitution does it say the people do not need to follow the Constitution? We are not even talking about the people we are talking about congress and the President. That's just whacked.

So you disagree with all court rulings that laws any law Unconstitutional? That is what you just said. The courts cannot overturn "bans" on gay marriage? In fact in many of those cases, the people voted directly for it much less through elected representatives. The courts have been blocking school vouchers, so that's wrong? The people can ignore the Constitution and Congress is the people?

You didn't think this one through.

Child, The People vote for politicians who have agenda's. Therefor the people vote for higher taxes in some situations. The Constitution says it can be changed, it does not say it doesn't need to be followed and I never stated that small brain.

Your entire reading of my post screams you have no intellect or ability to process information. You stating "Congress is people?" cracks me up at the end because you probably think Corporations are people.

Congress is controlled by the people, not the other way around. It's up to the people to drop their bias brains (you) and start voting smarter and working for a better system to prevent these corporate puppets from getting into office driving up taxes for the corporations they work for.

 

[AntiParty]

unfunded wars may the most asinine thing every written

I'm sure the GOPers will come up with a funding mechanism for them soon, right? As soon as they get rid of the UNFUNDED tax cuts they passed or fund the UNFUNDED Medicare expansion they had!

Name ONE nation to EVER cut taxes when you went to war, besides Dubya/GOP's? lol

They already have come up with a funding mechanism. They've used bias media to convince certain Americans that we are driving up massive debt because of Welfare, Social Security, Schools etc (Yes, school is an "entitlement" to them) So their entire focus has been to cut food stamps instead of stop unnecessary wars. The Military Industrial Complex is in complete control of the GOP. And Halliburton, Dick Cheney's Corporation that is getting paid to rebuild Iraq, the very Country they convinced us to tear down.

War is not free Cost of National Security Counting How Much the U.S. Spends Per Hour

Yet some are screaming we need war with multiple other Countries lately. Iran, Syria, Libya, Korea, Russia etc....

"The Pen is Mightier than the Sword" = Diplomacy works.

 

[dblack]

Ah yes, Hamilton:

“Safety from external danger is the most powerful director of national conduct. Even the ardent love of liberty will, after a time, give way to its dictates. The violent destruction of life and property incident to war, the continual effort and alarm attendant on a state of continual danger, will compel nations the most attached to liberty to resort for repose and security to institutions which have a tendency to destroy their civil and political rights. To be more safe, they at length become willing to run the risk of being less free.”
― Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers

“The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed.”
― Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers

“The complete independence of the courts of justice is peculiarly essential in a limited Constitution. By a limited Constitution, I understand one which contains certain specified exceptions to the legislative authority .... Limitations of this kind can be preserved in practice no other way than through the medium of courts of justice, whose duty it must be to declare all acts contrary to the manifest tenor of the Constitution void. Without this, all the reservations of particular rights or privileges would amount to nothing.”
― Alexander Hamilton

“To all general purposes we have uniformly been one people each individual citizen everywhere enjoying the same national rights, privileges, and protection.”
― Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers

Federalists papers were just propaganda to sell US on the BIG FED GOV'T over the limited Articles you know that right? AND the Big Federal Gov't guys won

You mentioned this before. But you don't seem willing to follow through. If the Constitution was ratified based on a fraud, then it's null and void as "consent of the governed" and the authority of the federal government is likewise a fraud.

 

[kaz]

The people of England couldn't take care of themselves. Not with that government. That government let the rich rule the serfs. The people of Mexico can't take care of themselves. That government doesn't look out for the masses. The rich rule Mexico.

The only reason you can afford to be so cocky and arrogant is because of the liberal progressive democratic new deal pro labor government you had from FDR to Bush in 2000.

To be honest, Reagan was the first to attack the middle class but GW twisted the knife Reagan put in our backs.

30 years ago the American Middle Class was the best. Today people in Seattle wish they lived in Vancouver. Stupid fucking Americans.

Don't go on any of those free vacations where all you have to do is look at a timeshare. Seriously. I don't think I need government to take care of me, you do think you need it to take care of you. The liberal progressive democratic new deal pro labor government did that, LOL. Actually, I did that for you. By investing my money and growing a business and providing you a job. Government turns around and pummels me for that. You succeed in spite of government, not because of it. You just don't know that because you're not the one fighting the dragon. Your boss is.

 

[kaz]

Obama's tax proposal of 28% was a fools trap, it came with downsides that were way worse than the cut. And it worked, it snared you.

IF 35% rate is bad, why not accept a 28% rate? Oh right, because taking away the loopholes brings in more revenues as their EFFECTIVE rate, the one that matters, is in the teens...lol

Actually, it's a massive new tax on businesses, it's not "closing loopholes" other than to a Marxist like you who thinks any money you allow the corporation to earn and keep is a "loophole."

So is liberal media going to start blasting you to provide details on the plan since you are the one behind the claim? I'm thinking not, he can prove me wrong.