Christianity, and Ethics

[Czernobog]

You keep wanting to talk about the culture, history, and language of the "people of that time", as if there is some point in history when genocide would have been considered ethical, and moral. Except that no such time, exists. You cannot point to a single point in history when Genocide was ever considered to be a morally correct thing to do.

You will like this: Prove that it happened.

Isn't it just as likely (given further mention of the tribe and the problems that were cropping up when the two tribes became neighbors) that there was a little hyperbole in use--reminding the Israelites that God's intent was for the Israelites to be a people set apart.

Uh, no. You don't get to do that. You don't get to insist that the Bible is the true, and accurate word of God, until it becomes uncomfortable to do so, then suddenly decide, "Oh, well, the stuff that happened in the Bible, didn't really happen, and you can't prove it did,"

Well...I mean you can. But, then you're just a hypocrite, and you might as well just admit that you know that Bible is bullshit, your religion is bullshit, and you're really just an agnostic at heart.

 

[Czernobog]

It is my opinion it is your interpretation that changes the Bible into nothing more than fables or fairy tales. But then, isn't that your intent?

Why do people on both sides seem to think that a story being a fairy tale somehow disqualifies it from having value, even great value?

How else could the Jewish people hide the wealth of the nation and safeguard the treasures of the Temple from being defiled or plundered by illiterate and superstitious people even after being defeated?

No one is saying that fairy tales have no value; just that one does not build a religion around them, and they are not evidence of divinity.

 

[Czernobog]

Why do people on both sides seem to think that a story being a fairy tale somehow disqualifies it from having value, even great value?

How else could the Jewish people hide their wealth and the treasures of the Temple from illiterate and superstitious people?

Ah, but no one said a fairy tale or a fable is disqualified from having great value--particularly moral value. It's just not considered scripture.

Wow. Something we can actually agree on.

 

[Meriweather]

Because. You. Do. And you act like this believe in the "Christian God", somehow, makes you morally superior to those who do not. Except it doesn't. Because in order to accept that the Bible is true, and accurate, you must accept that you worship a God that is the author, directly, of genocide, and the slaughter of children, and infants.

And, as soon as you acknowledge, and accept that, then you lose any moral high ground you think you have.

Is this what this is all about? You believe Christians think they are morally superior? And, you wish to show it is you who has the moral high ground? You are welcome to it, you know. No one is going to throw you down, and you might even enjoy the view.

 

[Meriweather]

Why do people on both sides seem to think that a story being a fairy tale somehow disqualifies it from having value, even great value?

How else could the Jewish people hide their wealth and the treasures of the Temple from illiterate and superstitious people?

Ah, but no one said a fairy tale or a fable is disqualified from having great value--particularly moral value. It's just not considered scripture.

Wow. Something we can actually agree on.

I just knew it would happen!

 

[Czernobog]

Because. You. Do. And you act like this believe in the "Christian God", somehow, makes you morally superior to those who do not. Except it doesn't. Because in order to accept that the Bible is true, and accurate, you must accept that you worship a God that is the author, directly, of genocide, and the slaughter of children, and infants.

And, as soon as you acknowledge, and accept that, then you lose any moral high ground you think you have.

Is this what this is all about? You believe Christians think they are morally superior? And, you wish to show it is you who has the moral high ground? You are welcome to it, you know. No one is going to throw you down, and you might even enjoy the view.

To the Bold: No. I wish everyone to quit pretending they have some secret formula to moral superiority, and to simply accept that morality, and ethics is a personal choice, and decision. If I want to have an abortion, then it is no one else's business but mine. It is not yours. It is not your place to tell me how evil I am. It is not your place to tell me how much God is going to hate me. It is not your place to judge me in any way, whatsoever.

If my grandmother is old, and sick, and doesn't even recognise her own face, or my wife is in agony every day suffering a disease that has no cure, and I choose to help them die with dignity, and end their suffering, it is not your place to call me a murderer. It is not your place to tell me how quickly I am going to hell. Mind your own fucking business.

If I choose to make a commitment to, and spend the rest of my life with the man that I fell in love with, it is not your place to tell me how much God hates fags. It is not your right to refuse to provide me the services of your business. It is not your right to judge me in any way. Bake my fucking cake, and mind your own gaddamned business.

The list goes on, and on. I don't pretend to be morally superior to anyone, because no one is morally superior to anyone. This is because morality, and ethics are a matter of personal choice, and what is right for one may not be right for another.

So, I hope by exposing the morally corrupt base of Christian worship, I will help Christians to come to understand that they have no grounds to consider themselves morally superior to anyone. You want to worship your baby-killing, genocidal God? Woohoo. Just keep it to your fucking selves, and quit trying to make the rest of us behave like we agree with you, and your moral positions.

 

[ding]

Who cares? There is no acceptable rationale for genocide. And anyone who suggests that there is has lost any right to claim any moral high ground over anyone else. Ever.

There is always rationale. What rationale was given for the action? Was it carried out? Was there debate? When the passage reads, "God said," is it reasonable to ascertain that the priestly party was on one side of a debate, whereas the more secular side had another side?

I've said before, we cannot read the Old Testament (in particular) and understand it properly if we insist on reading it solely through the lens of 21st century modern Western world. The language and thought patterns are entirely different.

I don't care what language, and thought patterns you want to use, genocide is genocide. You either agree that genocide is, or ever was, reasonable, or you do not. Do you believe that genocide is ever reasonable?

Since you don't believe in God, you don't believe that God ordered a genocide, right?

Which militant atheist website did you get your latest argument from?

Let's assume God gave the order, ok? Did the Jews actually commit genocide? Did they really do it?

Because. You. Do. And you act like this believe in the "Christian God", somehow, makes you morally superior to those who do not. Except it doesn't. Because in order to accept that the Bible is true, and accurate, you must accept that you worship a God that is the author, directly, of genocide, and the slaughter of children, and infants.

And, as soon as you acknowledge, and accept that, then you lose any moral high ground you think you have.

Moral high ground? Where have I claimed moral high ground? That is all in your head. I don't claim moral high ground. In fact quite the opposite. I am no saint. I am a sinner.

So getting back to my assertion. You don't believe the argument you are making and you are the one who is trying to claim moral high ground.

 

[ding]

Let's just put this to bed, once and for all. You can claim that Christianity is responsible for whatever you like, one glaring fact remains:

If you read the Bible, and believe it is true, then you know that you God kills babies.

Let us reiterate that: You worship a God who Kills. Babies.

Now, you can rationalise this any way you wish, but so long as you insist that the God of the New Testament is the same God, as the God of the Old Testament, then you worship a God who ordered genocide, and killed Babies. Period. Full stop.

So long as you worship a genocidal, baby killing God, and pretend that he isn't just that, and even call him a loving God, then you get to question the ethics, and morals of no one.

It's that simple.

Babies? You want to talk about babies? 1 million babies a year end up this way in our country alone. Where is your outrage over this, doctor? I bet if you could blame Christians for it you would be outraged. Your false piety makes me sick.

Warning Graphic Image.... Warning Morbid Image

You should revel in that photograph. After all, you worship a God who delights in genocide, and the slaughter OF INFANTS, AND CHILDREN. See, Ding? So, long as you worship a God that commands genocide, you have no moral high ground.

Now you are claiming God delights in genocide? I don't claim moral high ground. That is what you are doing while you look the other way while genocide of babies are occurring.

 

[hobelim]

Why do people on both sides seem to think that a story being a fairy tale somehow disqualifies it from having value, even great value?

How else could the Jewish people hide their wealth and the treasures of the Temple from illiterate and superstitious people?

Ah, but no one said a fairy tale or a fable is disqualified from having great value--particularly moral value. It's just not considered scripture.

I see.

Let me help you this much.

A story that starts with 'in the beginning", just like, 'once upon a time', that features a talking serpent in paradise tricking the first human beings, its a fairy tale.

 

[Meriweather]

So, I hope by exposing the morally corrupt base of Christian worship, I will help Christians to come to understand that they have no grounds to consider themselves morally superior to anyone. You want to worship your baby-killing, genocidal God? Woohoo. Just keep it to your fucking selves, and quit trying to make the rest of us behave like we agree with you, and your moral positions.

Christians don't consider themselves morally superior. What Christians try to remember is that there is a moral ideal that should be at least recognized and acknowledged. Even if you as an atheist, wish to take God completely out of the picture, the ideal doesn't change.

Is it more ideal to give life or to take that life? Is it more ideal to love and care for someone until natural death--or until either care giver or care receiver decides to give up? What is the ideal...and what is Good Enough?

Should I tear down Hillary and Norgay for reaching the summit of Mount Everest, lest their accomplishment seem superior to my climbing a local hill?

Perhaps the question that should be posed is how close to the ideal should government policy--or law--be?

 

[hobelim]

It is my opinion it is your interpretation that changes the Bible into nothing more than fables or fairy tales. But then, isn't that your intent?

Why do people on both sides seem to think that a story being a fairy tale somehow disqualifies it from having value, even great value?

How else could the Jewish people hide the wealth of the nation and safeguard the treasures of the Temple from being defiled or plundered by illiterate and superstitious people even after being defeated?

No one is saying that fairy tales have no value; just that one does not build a religion around them, and they are not evidence of divinity.

Says who? Whats wrong with pillars of the community building a religion around the story of the three little pigs and then, in spite of reality, focus all their energy on believing with all their might that it is a historical document?

Whats so terrible if instead of thinking when things get tough and the enemy is at the gates, they read the story over and over again searching for a clue and then pray to the wise pig for guidance?

What could possibly go wrong?

 

[Czernobog]

So, I hope by exposing the morally corrupt base of Christian worship, I will help Christians to come to understand that they have no grounds to consider themselves morally superior to anyone. You want to worship your baby-killing, genocidal God? Woohoo. Just keep it to your fucking selves, and quit trying to make the rest of us behave like we agree with you, and your moral positions.

Christians don't consider themselves morally superior. What Christians try to remember is that there is a moral ideal that should be at least recognized and acknowledged. Even if you as an atheist, wish to take God completely out of the picture, the ideal doesn't change.

Is it more ideal to give life or to take that life? Is it more ideal to love and care for someone until natural death--or until either care giver or care receiver decides to give up? What is the ideal...and what is Good Enough?

Should I tear down Hillary and Norgay for reaching the summit of Mount Everest, lest their accomplishment seem superior to my climbing a local hill?

Perhaps the question that should be posed is how close to the ideal should government policy--or law--be?

Funny. For people who don't consider themselves morally superior, they certainly do seem to spend an awful lot of time trying to use the US government to dictate that everyone in the country behave in accordance with the moral strictures of their religious beliefs. That seems to me to be the behaviour of a group of people who think their moral code is morally superior to everyone else.

In fact, I notice you cut out all of the examples from my post that you replied to of Christians doing exactly what you claim in your response that Christians don't do.

I wonder why that might be...

I might even point out one of your "humble Christians", who does not think himself to be morally superior to anyone, right on this very thread, self-righteously equating the abortion of fetuses to "murdering millions of babies every day", because of his religious beliefs, all while continuing to ignore the genocidal god that he worships.

 

[Czernobog]

It is my opinion it is your interpretation that changes the Bible into nothing more than fables or fairy tales. But then, isn't that your intent?

Why do people on both sides seem to think that a story being a fairy tale somehow disqualifies it from having value, even great value?

How else could the Jewish people hide the wealth of the nation and safeguard the treasures of the Temple from being defiled or plundered by illiterate and superstitious people even after being defeated?

No one is saying that fairy tales have no value; just that one does not build a religion around them, and they are not evidence of divinity.

Says who? Whats wrong with pillars of the community building a religion around the story of the three little pigs and then, in spite of reality, focus all their energy on believing with all their might that it is a historical document?

Whats so terrible if instead of thinking when things get tough and the enemy is at the gates, they read the story over and over again searching for a clue and then pray to the wise pig for guidance?

What could possibly go wrong?

I really hope that was sarcasm...

 

[hobelim]

It is my opinion it is your interpretation that changes the Bible into nothing more than fables or fairy tales. But then, isn't that your intent?

Why do people on both sides seem to think that a story being a fairy tale somehow disqualifies it from having value, even great value?

How else could the Jewish people hide the wealth of the nation and safeguard the treasures of the Temple from being defiled or plundered by illiterate and superstitious people even after being defeated?

No one is saying that fairy tales have no value; just that one does not build a religion around them, and they are not evidence of divinity.

Says who? Whats wrong with pillars of the community building a religion around the story of the three little pigs and then, in spite of reality, focus all their energy on believing with all their might that it is a historical document?

Whats so terrible if instead of thinking when things get tough and the enemy is at the gates, they read the story over and over again searching for a clue and then pray to the wise pig for guidance?

What could possibly go wrong?

I really hope that was sarcasm...

lol, If you aren't sure, you are not qualified to be at the helm either.

 

[Czernobog]

It is my opinion it is your interpretation that changes the Bible into nothing more than fables or fairy tales. But then, isn't that your intent?

Why do people on both sides seem to think that a story being a fairy tale somehow disqualifies it from having value, even great value?

How else could the Jewish people hide the wealth of the nation and safeguard the treasures of the Temple from being defiled or plundered by illiterate and superstitious people even after being defeated?

No one is saying that fairy tales have no value; just that one does not build a religion around them, and they are not evidence of divinity.

Says who? Whats wrong with pillars of the community building a religion around the story of the three little pigs and then, in spite of reality, focus all their energy on believing with all their might that it is a historical document?

Whats so terrible if instead of thinking when things get tough and the enemy is at the gates, they read the story over and over again searching for a clue and then pray to the wise pig for guidance?

What could possibly go wrong?

I really hope that was sarcasm...

lol, If you aren't sure, you are not qualified to be at the helm either.

I've learned not to presume anything on these forums. Just about the time I think that no one could possibly suggest something so irrational, seriously, along cones someone to prove me wrong.

 

[Meriweather]

Funny. For people who don't consider themselves morally superior, they certainly do seem to spend an awful lot of time trying to use the US government to dictate that everyone in the country behave in accordance with the moral strictures of their religious beliefs. That seems to me to be the behaviour of a group of people who think their moral code is morally superior to everyone else.

In fact, I notice you cut out all of the examples from my post that you replied to of Christians doing exactly what you claim in your response that Christians don't do.

I wonder why that might be...

I'm surprised you haven't noticed by now that I always clip out any part of a post(s) I'm not responding to directly. So now you know. Second I never claimed that Christians "don't do" these things. Third, I don't talk about other members when I'm speaking to you.

You might be surprised at who is in favor of government/laws rising to the ideal--and those who are more in favor of government taking a low road and making the law of the land easier than the ideal.

Some Christians argue the law of the land should be lower than the ideal, and that only Christians need to work towards the ideal--without letting their left hand know what their right hand is doing. In other words, the standards for a citizen of an earthly nation and the standards of a citizen of God's kingdom should be different.

 

[RodISHI]

I prayed and asked for many years to understand what the Words actually meant. When the time came I spent over three years writing down what I was shown in the spirit and I confirmed each one I was given by the spirit from what I could find that was written in the books I had.

...and? How do you justify genocide? I can't wait to hear this...

Which genocide are you speaking about? If you are talking about what God planted through the ages seeded, plucked and tilled and replanted until it perfects; again that will be a personal thing you will have to overcome.

You see, you keep wanting to make this about some esoteric theological generality. I'm not talking about esoteric generalities. I'm talking about an actual, direct command to kill an actual race of people, right down to their children, infants, and even livestock. You either believe that the Old Testament is nothing more than a collection of fairy tales, and parables meant to provide "life lessons", in which case it is no more relevant that Aesop's fables, or Grimm's Fairy Tales, or you believe that it is an accurate, historical record of the Jewish people during their first 4,000years of existence, in which case your God commanded genocide.

Those are your only two options available.

What does the name Samuel mean? Do you know what it means to plant something?

Who cares what the man's name means? Either the book of Samuel is a book of History, or it is not. To be clear, is it your contention that none of the Old Testament is factual? Is it your contention that the Entire Old Testament is nothing more than a collection of stories that are not meant to be taken literally? You are contending that not a single part of the Old Testament is to be taken literally? Is that your contention?

The events took place. The plants (hosts for the heavenly portions and the earthly portions) were made and planted by God. Again God planted them in earth on purpose as it is the pattern for what is in humankind. There are terrestrial beings and celestial beings (bodies). Spiritual things (seeds) planted in earth which were grown in God's garden (earth as a whole) for the individual (human-earth) garden where the living soul resides.

Humans have a tough time discerning or understanding that. Many simply live by faith and have hope (for these all things are fulfilled by that which is in them that was planted previously into the earth we live in (here now, this day as we live and speak in the flesh). Another thing which is also explained in the Books is how these things are hidden from those who do not believe and those that rely on their own understanding. There is even hosts (yes already planted into the earth) that were actually planted (as scribes) to keep these things from those who live in, for and to carnally minded exalted religions.

Its all written you will have to search it all out for your self.

Plants??? Plants?!?!?! They. Were. Fucking. PEOPLE! You sociopath!!! Trying to reduce them to nothing more than plants that "needed culling", like a field of fucking wheat makes you just as sociopathic as the God you serve!

I answered your questions. Its too bad you don't like the answers and prefer to accuse. Those people just as today were also allowed to make choices. You make your bed you lay in it.

That's because your answer is as evil as the God you serve. You're answer is nothing more than an attempt to dehumanize an entire race of people, so that you do not have to deal with the reality that you serve a God that commanded the murder of infants, and children. And that's fine. Go ahead. However, do not ever pretend that you have any moral superiority over anyone ever again.

I see you would rather make accusations to attempt to justify yourself and your own beliefs rather than accept the fact that carnal beings make mistakes while living in their own sins with their own wicked ways.

 

[Czernobog]

Funny. For people who don't consider themselves morally superior, they certainly do seem to spend an awful lot of time trying to use the US government to dictate that everyone in the country behave in accordance with the moral strictures of their religious beliefs. That seems to me to be the behaviour of a group of people who think their moral code is morally superior to everyone else.

In fact, I notice you cut out all of the examples from my post that you replied to of Christians doing exactly what you claim in your response that Christians don't do.

I wonder why that might be...

I'm surprised you haven't noticed by now that I always clip out any part of a post(s) I'm not responding to directly. So now you know. Second I never claimed that Christians "don't do" these things. Third, I don't talk about other members when I'm speaking to you.

You said:

Christians don't consider themselves morally superior.

Presumably you believe yourself to be speaking for Christians, in general, which would include the other Christians on this forum, so, actually, you were making claims about other members on this forum. Further, the examples I provided were of Christian acting morally superior to others. You claim, as I quotted, that Christians don't do thagt, so, yeah, you did claim Christians "don't do" those things.

You might be surprised at who is in favor of government/laws rising to the ideal--and those who are more in favor of government taking a low road and making the law of the land easier than the ideal.

The law shouldn't be about "meeting an ideal", period. The purpose of civil, secular law is not to enforce some moral ideal - it is to protect the citizenry from the violation of their civil rights - either by others, or by the government.

Some Christians argue the law of the land should be lower than the ideal, and that only Christians need to work towards the ideal--without letting their left hand know what their right hand is doing. In other words, the standards for a citizen of an earthly nation and the standards of a citizen of God's kingdom should be different.

Yeah. Those Christians are called Progressives. They recognise that it is not the duty of Christianity to force everyone to agree with them. Unfortunately, they are, by far, the minority. You see, I did not say that every Christian is a self-righteous moralist. Only that Christians, in general, are. And, well...my position is demonstrated again, and again in modern politics, in social media,. and on these very forums.

When Christians who understand that their religion is not the answer to every question, that not everyone is interested in their religion, and that not everyone needs to live as if they agree with Christian morality, then I, and others like me will happily be on our way, and will leave Christians alone. It's real simple. When Christians leave the rest of us alone, we will leave them alone.

Until then, there will always be people like me to remind Christians that they are worshipers of a genocidal, baby-killing God, and have no moral foundation.

 

[Meriweather]

The law shouldn't be about "meeting an ideal", period. The purpose of civil, secular law is not to enforce some moral ideal - it is to protect the citizenry from the violation of their civil rights - either by others, or by the government.

Until then, there will always be people like me to remind Christians that they are worshipers of a genocidal, baby-killing God, and have no moral foundation.

When Christians who understand that their religion is not the answer to every question, that not everyone is interested in their religion, and that not everyone needs to live as if they agree with Christian morality, then I, and others like me will happily be on our way, and will leave Christians alone. It's real simple. When Christians leave the rest of us alone, we will leave them alone.

Then your argument is also with the Fathers of our Country and the Framers of the Constitution--not the Christian Church. The Framers belief was in natural law...that men should not make up their own laws--they should adopt and follow natural laws (i.e., the ideal).

Perhaps when people realize that Christians, too, are citizens of this country, and as such have just as much right to their view of the Constitution as people of any other faith--and people of no faith. You have a Man going here, labeling all those in favor of Natural Law as "Christians", trying to make this a religious debate when it is in reality a political debate. There are Christians on both sides of it.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Let's just put this to bed, once and for all. You can claim that Christianity is responsible for whatever you like, one glaring fact remains:

If you read the Bible, and believe it is true, then you know that you God kills babies.

Let us reiterate that: You worship a God who Kills. Babies.

Now, you can rationalise this any way you wish, but so long as you insist that the God of the New Testament is the same God, as the God of the Old Testament, then you worship a God who ordered genocide, and killed Babies. Period. Full stop.

So long as you worship a genocidal, baby killing God, and pretend that he isn't just that, and even call him a loving God, then you get to question the ethics, and morals of no one.

It's that simple.

The christian god doesn't just KILL babies. He tortures them. He's such a monster that he gives them the most horrendous birth defects and illnesses imaginable.

Actually, any human who could think up what god does to the most innocent among us .... Hmmm ... That human would also be created by their god.


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