Confederate Flag: Symbol of ?

[rightwinger]

Missourian does make a good point with many in the north having contempt for us southerners.
I have many relatives up north and many have moved down here over the last 30 years.
"Where is a good butcher" "Where is a good laundry" and all kinds of bitching and moaning.
But they keep coming in droves because union shop states, corrupt politicians up north and falling apart infrastructure up north send them here.
And they love our beautiful women, new and kept roads, affordable cost of living and weather down here.
But we love folks from the north down here when they show up with their football teams as we normally beat them.
We accept and welcome everyone here. However, when we go up north not the case with them accepting us all the time.
Okay for them to butcher the hell out of the English language yet when one of us does it we are hicks.
Add in liberal media and TV where they always depict us southerners as dumb asses.

But for those that keep bitching and moaning Delta is ready when you are.

It's not the butcher

It's the god damn Pizza

 

[Missourian]

Yea...

Next thing ya know they will be banning country music, rotgut beer, Waffle Houses and marrying your cousin.

I see you didn't waste any time proving my point.

I sincerely appreciate your expeditiousness .

Listen Goober

We get tired of your victimization

Just because the rest of the country looks at you as backwoods, dimwitted and uncultured

Honey Boo Boo anyone?

Ah, ah, ah, be careful RW...your bigotry is showing.

Hate to to burst your superiority bubble...in order to be victims, we'd have to care what you...I mean...uh..."they"....thought.

So, does out make you feel like a big man to demean, and insult people because they are different than you.

Looks like you have more in common with the KKK you've been railing against in this thread than you previously supposed.

 

[Gadawg73]

Missourian does make a good point with many in the north having contempt for us southerners.
I have many relatives up north and many have moved down here over the last 30 years.
"Where is a good butcher" "Where is a good laundry" and all kinds of bitching and moaning.
But they keep coming in droves because union shop states, corrupt politicians up north and falling apart infrastructure up north send them here.
And they love our beautiful women, new and kept roads, affordable cost of living and weather down here.
But we love folks from the north down here when they show up with their football teams as we normally beat them.
We accept and welcome everyone here. However, when we go up north not the case with them accepting us all the time.
Okay for them to butcher the hell out of the English language yet when one of us does it we are hicks.
Add in liberal media and TV where they always depict us southerners as dumb asses.

But for those that keep bitching and moaning Delta is ready when you are.

It's not the butcher

It's the god damn Pizza

LOL, yes, hard to find good pizza here but who cares.
We have BBQ hog sammiches!

 

[rightwinger]

Missourian does make a good point with many in the north having contempt for us southerners.
I have many relatives up north and many have moved down here over the last 30 years.
"Where is a good butcher" "Where is a good laundry" and all kinds of bitching and moaning.
But they keep coming in droves because union shop states, corrupt politicians up north and falling apart infrastructure up north send them here.
And they love our beautiful women, new and kept roads, affordable cost of living and weather down here.
But we love folks from the north down here when they show up with their football teams as we normally beat them.
We accept and welcome everyone here. However, when we go up north not the case with them accepting us all the time.
Okay for them to butcher the hell out of the English language yet when one of us does it we are hicks.
Add in liberal media and TV where they always depict us southerners as dumb asses.

But for those that keep bitching and moaning Delta is ready when you are.

It's not the butcher

It's the god damn Pizza

LOL, yes, hard to find good pizza here but who cares.
We have BBQ hog sammiches!

I do crave southern BBQ

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

It's not the butcher

It's the god damn Pizza

LOL, yes, hard to find good pizza here but who cares.
We have BBQ hog sammiches!

I do crave southern BBQ

Mmmmm. Which kind? My own preference is for Memphis style.

 

[William Joyce]

how many people still alive in the kkk actually participate in a lynching?

Actually a pretty good question. In the 50's, 60's, and early 70's white resistance in the South was led by White Citizen's Councils where "respectable" segregationists in public office and the business community tried to slow or reverse desegregation. The local muscle to rough up Freedom Riders and shoot into occupied houses and burn churches was delegated to the Klan. In a typical Southern county the White Citizens Council normally included the Sheriff, Chief of Police, Mayor, President of the Bank, County Superintendent of Schools and so forth. The Chief Deputy was often the Klan head, supported by all the good ol' boys he went to school with.

The Tuskegee Institute has recorded 3,446 blacks and 1,297 whites were lynched between 1882 and 1968. The last full public lynching in the South was probably Emmett Till in Mississippi in 1955. After that, people were killed (Goodman, Chaney, and Schwerner in 1964 for example) in racially motivated slayings, but these more nearly resembled assassinations or mob hits rather than traditional lynchings. In the decade from 2000 to 2009 a number of high profile cases which had ended in hung juries were retried and convictions obtained.

So to answer, there are probably two or three dozen inmates in prison today serving long sentences for racially motivated murder, attempted murder, arson, and similar violent
crimes. I believe six of them are there for trying to kill Morris Dees. To the best of my knowledge, all of them were members of the KKK or a successor white supremacy organization such as Aryan Nation, or had close ties to such organizations. The traditional meeting place is the Stormfront.org website.

And today, the victims of racial violence are WHITES, not blacks.

But since the media doesn't report on that, and the left doesn't care, and the Holder Justice Dept. never heard of the Black Panthers, it's all down the memory hole...

 

[Aristotle]

Ah, here we go poor whites are the victims of racism. Well let me tell you this. If you're white, and your a victim of racism welcome to my world, and my parents world, and my grandparents world, and my great great parents world and my great great great parents world, and my great great great great great........

The confederacy was anything but a symbol of rejecting tyranny and if it was, it was an inherent contradictory symbol. Why should you defend a flag used against supposed tyranny when white southerners were tyrants themselves against blacks?

 

[oldfart]

And today, the victims of racial violence are WHITES, not blacks.

But since the media doesn't report on that, and the left doesn't care, and the Holder Justice Dept. never heard of the Black Panthers, it's all down the memory hole...

Piffle. You just admitted you have no numbers to back up your false assertion. You have no reports from the Bush administration Justice Department? No statistics from liberal bastions like Texas?

 

[longknife]

Let's first put some things in perspective:

The Civil War DID NOT start over slavery!!! It was a matter of certain states angry over the federal government's telling them what they could and could not do, mostly in matters of selling their goods. Slavery was used as nothing but a political ploy to raise emotions and recruits for the North.

Second, the KKK did not start as just a racist organization but was initially formed to oust the Carpetbaggers who were raping their economy and trying to take their political choices away. They DID become a very racist group - as well as being quite anti-Semite and Catholic. And don't forget, His Royal Highness Robert Byrd, D-WVA, who served longer than any other Senator was a member of the KKK!

The Battle Flag is nothing more than a symbol of one's pride in The South, a special section of this nation that has suffered great poverty for decades but where people still work hard and are proud of their efforts. I do not think the majority of Southerners are racists.

Now, if you want a truly racist symbol, check out this -

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

Ah, here we go poor whites are the victims of racism. Well let me tell you this. If you're white, and your a victim of racism welcome to my world, and my parents world, and my grandparents world, and my great great parents world and my great great great parents world, and my great great great great great........

The confederacy was anything but a symbol of rejecting tyranny and if it was, it was an inherent contradictory symbol. Why should you defend a flag used against supposed tyranny when white southerners were tyrants themselves against blacks?


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Now you are just posting inflammatory drivel meant to imply that the Confederate flag is akin to the Nazi flag in what it represents. I am not a southerner, but I have known many, from different parts of the south, and I have known them to be much more culturally complex than you may acknowledge, and for many, the flag is a cultural symbol rather than a political or dogmatic one, and thus symbolic of something that is difficult for those outside of the south to understand. My ancestors are from Kentucky and the lower mid-west, so I suppose I have some mild cultural tie to it, and perhaps that is why I am a little more empathetic.

If you want to post pictures of Klansmen holding a Confederate flag while giving the Bellamy salute nobody can stop you, but your limited perspective and your agenda are pretty transparent, to me at least. Clearly you view the Confederate flag as no different than the Nazi flag. Nobody can stop you from feeling that way, but it is not an appropriate comparison. The Nazi flag had zero cultural significance, and was every bit a political symbol. In fact, it did much to erase or marginalize German culture, which was very unfortunate for all of us because of many of the wonderful things about German culture. The Confederate flag is a much more complex symbol than the Nazi flag, and to suggest such a comparison is silly.

 

[oldfart]

The Civil War DID NOT start over slavery!!! It was a matter of certain states angry over the federal government's telling them what they could and could not do, mostly in matters of selling their goods. Slavery was used as nothing but a political ploy to raise emotions and recruits for the North.

Second, the KKK did not start as just a racist organization but was initially formed to oust the Carpetbaggers who were raping their economy and trying to take their political choices away. They DID become a very racist group - as well as being quite anti-Semite and Catholic. And don't forget, His Royal Highness Robert Byrd, D-WVA, who served longer than any other Senator was a member of the KKK!

The Battle Flag is nothing more than a symbol of one's pride in The South, a special section of this nation that has suffered great poverty for decades but where people still work hard and are proud of their efforts. I do not think the majority of Southerners are racists.

How did the koolaid taste? Nice cartoon though.

 

[jwoodie]

I am disturbed by the constant references to the Swastika and (neo)Nazis, who are a tiny group of imbeciles who don't even understand the principles (sic) of the Nazi Party. Hitler considered the U.S. to be a "mongrel" nation unfit for Aryan supremacy, so any talk of white purity or superiority in our country is ludicrous.

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

I am disturbed by the constant references to the Swastika and (neo)Nazis, who are a tiny group of imbeciles who don't even understand the principles (sic) of the Nazi Party. Hitler considered the U.S. to be a "mongrel" nation unfit for Aryan supremacy, so any talk of white purity or superiority in our country is ludicrous.

I agree. My post above was meant to address an obvious comparison being made by Aristotle, and to suggest to him that he may be oversimplifying things.

 

[Toronado3800]

A confederate flag is a symbol of loss, lack of education and racism in my eyes. Something about being a Virginian instead of an American I suppose. If you supoort that flag next time you identify your nationality overseas refer to yourself as a Nevadan or Utahanarian or Mississipan.

 

[PaulS1950]

The confederacy was formed in an act of war, illegally begun by Lincoln (without a full vote of congress), to "keep the union intact at all costs". It was a federal mandate that the states did not have the right to leave the union.
Slavery wasn't even brought into it until the war was almost won by the Confederacy.

Slavery was wrong on so many levels but the war started because the southern plantation owners were unable to get a fair price for their goods in the USA and the feds (to protect their source of cotton and tobacco) would not let them trade on the world market. You "believers" that the war was a just fight against slavery need to go back and look at the history. Many land-owners in the north had slaves, including Andrew Jackson.
There may be another war coming on the right to leave the union but this time it will be worse because there will be more states involved. Texas has the right to quit in their constitution and there have been others that have incorporated the right into their constitutions. States rights issues are blossoming again.

 

[zed42]

You do realize that the Civil War was not started to abolish slavery. The Civil War was started over secession, if a State had the right to secede from the Union. In the early part of the war Lincoln wrote a letter that was published in the NY Times. Lincoln said that he would save the Union any way he could. If it could be saved without freeing any slave, by freeing all slaves, or by freeing some and leaving others alone he would do so. As a matter of fact, during the first part of the war, if a Union Officer came across an escaped slave, by law he had to return the slave to the owner. The Emancipation Proclamation was first brought forth by President Lincoln in a speech on Sept 22, 1862 and wasn't effective until Jan 1, 1863. The Civil War basically started Jan 1 1861. So, is the Confederate Flag a symbol of the perceived rights of States or of slavery? Yes, the States that seceded from the Union did so because of the question of slavery. But what did the "Stars & Bars" represent to the Confederate soldier, that is the question.

 

[PaulS1950]

Zed, I understand that you belive that slavery was an issue that started the civil war but that doesn't change the facts. It was begun over states sovereignty issues. Namely the right of a state to sell goods on a world market instead of to the country of origin to make a fair price. To do that the states had to secede. The feds would not allow the export of cotton and tobacco. The war started when Fort Sumter told the Confederate ship that they were going to open fire upon them. In response the ship fired a "first" shot (premptive defense) round from a ten inch mortar that burst 100 feet over the fort - according to an eye-witness (Stephen Lee) on the day of the exchange.
The ships commander had requested a date that the men would leave the fort that was on sovereign state land. The fort commander said that if he waited a few days that the men at the fort would be starved to death. The commander of the fort then sent a message that before that happened the fort would fire on the ship with every gun at its disposal. The fear of that exchange is what prompted the ships captain to fire. If the occupying force of the federal army had left there would never have been a war at all.

 

[PaulS1950]

Jimmy,
Lincoln acted unlawfully and voided the very constitution he swore to uphold and protect by declaring war on the confederacy. He did not have the majority vote of congress to declare war, he had no power to compell the states to remain as part of the union.
The war was a power play by a man who was unwilling to allow free trade or be known as the president that let the union to split up. ALL EGO and GREED.
Any and ALL states that no longer wish to be a part of the USA have and should announce their right to secede. Take the matter to the supreme court and then see how the feds treatment of the states changes.
The USA lost more than soldiers in the war between the states - we lost states sovereignty rights and we have lost more rights and freedoms since. We have been on that slippery slope so long that it seems level to the sheeple in the USA. The USA has become a dictatorship concealed in representative democracy. It was initially a full republic with guaranteed rights and freedoms and the goverment was setup to protect those rights and freedoms. Now we have 10s of millions of unlawfull searches every day in this country, free speech is conditional, people are told to incriminate themselves to insure the safety of LEOs, and the only thing that protects all the rights we have is being terminated one little piece at a time. Once we lose our right to keep and bear arms we will lose everything.
All because one man couldn't allow the constitution to stand and let those states that wanted to secede do so.
The USA has been getting sicker for a very long time. I wonder if we, THE PEOPLE, have what it takes to take it back.

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

Jimmy,
Lincoln acted unlawfully and voided the very constitution he swore to uphold and protect by declaring war on the confederacy. He did not have the majority vote of congress to declare war, he had no power to compell the states to remain as part of the union.
The war was a power play by a man who was unwilling to allow free trade or be known as the president that let the union to split up. ALL EGO and GREED.
Any and ALL states that no longer wish to be a part of the USA have and should announce their right to secede. Take the matter to the supreme court and then see how the feds treatment of the states changes.
The USA lost more than soldiers in the war between the states - we lost states sovereignty rights and we have lost more rights and freedoms since. We have been on that slippery slope so long that it seems level to the sheeple in the USA. The USA has become a dictatorship concealed in representative democracy. It was initially a full republic with guaranteed rights and freedoms and the goverment was setup to protect those rights and freedoms. Now we have 10s of millions of unlawfull searches every day in this country, free speech is conditional, people are told to incriminate themselves to insure the safety of LEOs, and the only thing that protects all the rights we have is being terminated one little piece at a time. Once we lose our right to keep and bear arms we will lose everything.
All because one man couldn't allow the constitution to stand and let those states that wanted to secede do so.
The USA has been getting sicker for a very long time. I wonder if we, THE PEOPLE, have what it takes to take it back.

I'm not getting into a debate over whether or not states should be allowed to secede. While I am certain that in the vast majority of cases a secession would be a detriment to both the nation and the state that secedes, I am not fundamentally opposed to it. My point was that I recognize that the Civil War was not started over slavery. It simply became an issue because it had to be dealt with anyway. Slavery would have been abolished eventually anyway, whether you view Lincoln as tyrannical or not. As you have already pointed out, the only people that stood to lose in the abolition of slavery were the aristocrats of both sides anyway. The soldiers mostly didn't care, and the issue of slavery was indeed pushed by Lincoln.

Anyway, I'm not trying to get into a debate with you over it. I was originally just saying that the Confederate flag is symbolic of a lot of things, and I was accusing Aristotle of oversimplifying things. That's all.

 

[zed42]

Zed, I understand that you belive that slavery was an issue that started the civil war but that doesn't change the facts. It was begun over states sovereignty issues. Namely the right of a state to sell goods on a world market instead of to the country of origin to make a fair price. To do that the states had to secede. The feds would not allow the export of cotton and tobacco. The war started when Fort Sumter told the Confederate ship that they were going to open fire upon them. In response the ship fired a "first" shot (premptive defense) round from a ten inch mortar that burst 100 feet over the fort - according to an eye-witness (Stephen Lee) on the day of the exchange.
The ships commander had requested a date that the men would leave the fort that was on sovereign state land. The fort commander said that if he waited a few days that the men at the fort would be starved to death. The commander of the fort then sent a message that before that happened the fort would fire on the ship with every gun at its disposal. The fear of that exchange is what prompted the ships captain to fire. If the occupying force of the federal army had left there would never have been a war at all.

If you read my post, you will see in the first sentence that I said that the Civil War was not started over slavery. Also,might I suggest a excellent book. "The Man Who Saved the Union" Ulysses Grant in war and peace by H.W. Brands. It covers history from just before the Mexican War though Grant's presidency. There is considerable amount of information on the active players during this period and the politics of the period. Book is a little over 600 pages long (standard type)