Conservatives and Liberals: A little more civility please

[toomuchtime_]

Oh, you're right, I did typo. I meant "Loser", but you know that.

Yes, I just told you that.

This is not a Democracy, the popular vote, even if it was accurate, doesn't matter, since we are a Republic. The Electoral College was designed to give equal representation. I, personally, love the Electoral College, regardless of which candidate wins.

The electoral college has nothing to do with use being a republic or a direct democracy. If we ditched the electoral college we would still very much be a republic where we elect individuals to represent us

Seriously, read a book.

The electoral college gives a voice to the small states which would otherwise be effectively governed from Sacramento. That is also the reason the Senate gives Delaware and California the same number of representatives. Without these measures there would have been no United States, and these reasons are still strong enough to prevent a Constitutional amendment to get rid of the electoral college so why make a fool of yourself whining about it?

No it doesn't. Wyoming, Alaska and Rhode Island had zero voice and they will continue to be ignored after the election because nobody lives there, nobody campaigns there. That is a farce.

You know who doesn't get a voice? Conservatives in California, millions of voters, about 40% of the state, they don't have a single electoral college vote to share. While half a million in Wyoming get 4. There is nothing democratic about that.

Anyway, you really don't need a constitutional amendment. If enough states pass laws to give their electoral college votes to the winner of the popular vote then the EC is for all purposes non functional. You really only need enough states to equal 270 electoral votes to get there and that is possibly attainable.

In fact, as much as you and Clinton might want to ignore these states, they are not ignored because they have at least 3 electoral votes and two Senate votes.

Trump kind of ignored them too, what are you talking about? Just because a state has a low population is really no reason to give them more electoral power, there is no reason for it. Also, if you go to a popular vote system then there is more incentive for people to vote in elections where the other party outnumbers their own. it's an incentive to vote where as the EC can have the effect of killing turnout because many will rightfully believe that their vote doesn't count.

The only states that would agree to vote for the winner of the national popular vote would some of the be blue states, because the electoral system is advantageous to the mostly Republican smaller states. Instead of whining about the electoral college, why don't you try to figure out why Clinton lost blue states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin? It is these states that cost her the election, not the electoral college.

Maybe it would only be blue states, if so, traditionally we are pretty close to being there. Nothing is easy but the EC is undemocratic.

In fact, you are close to nothing because you seem to have no understanding why Clinton lost the election.

 

[deltex1]

Conservatives and Liberals: The election is over. I think both sides need to stop inflaming this situation. Democrats need to stop the protests, show business tours, and accept the results of the election. Republicans need to stop the name calling, trash talking and other "in your face" behavior. I know it's too much to ask for American voters to behave like civilized people, but hope springs eternal.

Both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton displayed good manners and respect in their speeches immediately after the election. Maybe American voters should do the same.

Well the display of 'good manners' ended after election night. Didn't you hear? Trump totally won the popular vote and he didn't scapegoat brown people at all for his over 2 million vote loss.

Civility, sure. Who doesn't want that? However this place is poison and it's never going to happen at USMB.

You mean the Trump landslide?

There's no such thing. He won the election on a technicality, just like Bush the first time.

It's not a technicality, Mona...it's the constitution.

 

[HappyJoy]

Yes, I just told you that.

The electoral college has nothing to do with use being a republic or a direct democracy. If we ditched the electoral college we would still very much be a republic where we elect individuals to represent us

Seriously, read a book.

The electoral college gives a voice to the small states which would otherwise be effectively governed from Sacramento. That is also the reason the Senate gives Delaware and California the same number of representatives. Without these measures there would have been no United States, and these reasons are still strong enough to prevent a Constitutional amendment to get rid of the electoral college so why make a fool of yourself whining about it?

No it doesn't. Wyoming, Alaska and Rhode Island had zero voice and they will continue to be ignored after the election because nobody lives there, nobody campaigns there. That is a farce.

You know who doesn't get a voice? Conservatives in California, millions of voters, about 40% of the state, they don't have a single electoral college vote to share. While half a million in Wyoming get 4. There is nothing democratic about that.

Anyway, you really don't need a constitutional amendment. If enough states pass laws to give their electoral college votes to the winner of the popular vote then the EC is for all purposes non functional. You really only need enough states to equal 270 electoral votes to get there and that is possibly attainable.

In fact, as much as you and Clinton might want to ignore these states, they are not ignored because they have at least 3 electoral votes and two Senate votes.

Trump kind of ignored them too, what are you talking about? Just because a state has a low population is really no reason to give them more electoral power, there is no reason for it. Also, if you go to a popular vote system then there is more incentive for people to vote in elections where the other party outnumbers their own. it's an incentive to vote where as the EC can have the effect of killing turnout because many will rightfully believe that their vote doesn't count.

The only states that would agree to vote for the winner of the national popular vote would some of the be blue states, because the electoral system is advantageous to the mostly Republican smaller states. Instead of whining about the electoral college, why don't you try to figure out why Clinton lost blue states like Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin? It is these states that cost her the election, not the electoral college.

Maybe it would only be blue states, if so, traditionally we are pretty close to being there. Nothing is easy but the EC is undemocratic.

In fact, you are close to nothing because you seem to have no understanding why Clinton lost the election.

She lost the election mostly because of the electoral college. I mean, if you want to look at in who got the most votes.

Other than that you have a lot of anger in white communities who feel they've been ignored, specifically in the rust belt and they wanted change. It was a relatively low voter turnout presidential election and that's a shame.

 

[HenryBHough]

The election was over in 2008, too.

Now conservatives are exhibiting the same civility practiced by liberals at that time.

Suck it up buttercups!

What does around doesn't just come around. it HAS come around and you need to get used to it.

 

[peach174]

Democrats win = EC good
Democrats lose = EC bad

The EC is bad, unnecessary and the only thing it is guaranteed to do is change the appearance of the election results for no good reason at all.

Yet it was Ok when Obama played the super delagates game better than Hillary did in 2008.
Trump played the game better than Hillary did in 2016 so now its get rid of the E.C. Go for it and see how hard it it to get amendments added.
There is a reason for that too.

 

[Papageorgio]

Conservatives and Liberals: The election is over. I think both sides need to stop inflaming this situation. Democrats need to stop the protests, show business tours, and accept the results of the election. Republicans need to stop the name calling, trash talking and other "in your face" behavior. I know it's too much to ask for American voters to behave like civilized people, but hope springs eternal.

Both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton displayed good manners and respect in their speeches immediately after the election. Maybe American voters should do the same.

Well the display of 'good manners' ended after election night. Didn't you hear? Trump totally won the popular vote and he didn't scapegoat brown people at all for his over 2 million vote loss.

Civility, sure. Who doesn't want that? However this place is poison and it's never going to happen at USMB.

You mean the Trump landslide?

There's no such thing. He won the election on a technicality, just like Bush the first time.

Technicality? The Electoral College is not a technicality, it is how every President has been elected. It is that kind of dishonesty that creates the division.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Conservatives and Liberals: The election is over. I think both sides need to stop inflaming this situation. Democrats need to stop the protests, show business tours, and accept the results of the election. Republicans need to stop the name calling, trash talking and other "in your face" behavior. I know it's too much to ask for American voters to behave like civilized people, but hope springs eternal.

Both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton displayed good manners and respect in their speeches immediately after the election. Maybe American voters should do the same.

Well the display of 'good manners' ended after election night. Didn't you hear? Trump totally won the popular vote and he didn't scapegoat brown people at all for his over 2 million vote loss.

Civility, sure. Who doesn't want that? However this place is poison and it's never going to happen at USMB.

You mean the Trump landslide?

There's no such thing. He won the election on a technicality, just like Bush the first time.

It's not a technicality, Mona...it's the constitution.

Yeah, darn that Article 2!!!

 

[HappyJoy]

Conservatives and Liberals: The election is over. I think both sides need to stop inflaming this situation. Democrats need to stop the protests, show business tours, and accept the results of the election. Republicans need to stop the name calling, trash talking and other "in your face" behavior. I know it's too much to ask for American voters to behave like civilized people, but hope springs eternal.

Both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton displayed good manners and respect in their speeches immediately after the election. Maybe American voters should do the same.

Well the display of 'good manners' ended after election night. Didn't you hear? Trump totally won the popular vote and he didn't scapegoat brown people at all for his over 2 million vote loss.

Civility, sure. Who doesn't want that? However this place is poison and it's never going to happen at USMB.

You mean the Trump landslide?

There's no such thing. He won the election on a technicality, just like Bush the first time.

It's not a technicality, Mona...it's the constitution.

Yes, it's in the Constitution and I'm not saying Trump didn't win. I'm saying it's time to end the EC. It's two different things.

 

[HappyJoy]

Conservatives and Liberals: The election is over. I think both sides need to stop inflaming this situation. Democrats need to stop the protests, show business tours, and accept the results of the election. Republicans need to stop the name calling, trash talking and other "in your face" behavior. I know it's too much to ask for American voters to behave like civilized people, but hope springs eternal.

Both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton displayed good manners and respect in their speeches immediately after the election. Maybe American voters should do the same.

Well the display of 'good manners' ended after election night. Didn't you hear? Trump totally won the popular vote and he didn't scapegoat brown people at all for his over 2 million vote loss.

Civility, sure. Who doesn't want that? However this place is poison and it's never going to happen at USMB.

You mean the Trump landslide?

There's no such thing. He won the election on a technicality, just like Bush the first time.

Technicality? The Electoral College is not a technicality, it is how every President has been elected. It is that kind of dishonesty that creates the division.

No, this doesn't create any division, I'm not saying Trump isn't going to be president.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Conservatives and Liberals: The election is over. I think both sides need to stop inflaming this situation. Democrats need to stop the protests, show business tours, and accept the results of the election. Republicans need to stop the name calling, trash talking and other "in your face" behavior. I know it's too much to ask for American voters to behave like civilized people, but hope springs eternal.

Both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton displayed good manners and respect in their speeches immediately after the election. Maybe American voters should do the same.

Well the display of 'good manners' ended after election night. Didn't you hear? Trump totally won the popular vote and he didn't scapegoat brown people at all for his over 2 million vote loss.

Civility, sure. Who doesn't want that? However this place is poison and it's never going to happen at USMB.

You mean the Trump landslide?

There's no such thing. He won the election on a technicality, just like Bush the first time.

It's not a technicality, Mona...it's the constitution.

Yes, it's in the Constitution and I'm not saying Trump didn't win. I'm saying it's time to end the EC. It's two different things.

It isn't going away... it is there for a reason and it works well. There is no way in hell you're going to get a majority of the states to amend the constitution over this.

 

[HappyJoy]

Democrats win = EC good
Democrats lose = EC bad

The EC is bad, unnecessary and the only thing it is guaranteed to do is change the appearance of the election results for no good reason at all.

Yet it was Ok when Obama played the super delagates game better than Hillary did in 2008.
Trump played the game better than Hillary did in 2016 so now its get rid of the E.C. Go for it and see how hard it it to get amendments added.
There is a reason for that too.

No, I hate the idea of super delegates, I hope the Dems kill that soon.

 

[HappyJoy]

Well the display of 'good manners' ended after election night. Didn't you hear? Trump totally won the popular vote and he didn't scapegoat brown people at all for his over 2 million vote loss.

Civility, sure. Who doesn't want that? However this place is poison and it's never going to happen at USMB.

You mean the Trump landslide?

There's no such thing. He won the election on a technicality, just like Bush the first time.

It's not a technicality, Mona...it's the constitution.

Yes, it's in the Constitution and I'm not saying Trump didn't win. I'm saying it's time to end the EC. It's two different things.

It isn't going away... it is there for a reason and it works well. There is no way in hell you're going to get a majority of the states to amend the constitution over this.

You still can't really explain the reason though. And you don't need a constitutional amendment to render the EC meaningless.

Not an easy task, not impossible either.

 

[Papageorgio]

Conservatives and Liberals: The election is over. I think both sides need to stop inflaming this situation. Democrats need to stop the protests, show business tours, and accept the results of the election. Republicans need to stop the name calling, trash talking and other "in your face" behavior. I know it's too much to ask for American voters to behave like civilized people, but hope springs eternal.

Both Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton displayed good manners and respect in their speeches immediately after the election. Maybe American voters should do the same.

Well the display of 'good manners' ended after election night. Didn't you hear? Trump totally won the popular vote and he didn't scapegoat brown people at all for his over 2 million vote loss.

Civility, sure. Who doesn't want that? However this place is poison and it's never going to happen at USMB.

You mean the Trump landslide?

There's no such thing. He won the election on a technicality, just like Bush the first time.

Technicality? The Electoral College is not a technicality, it is how every President has been elected. It is that kind of dishonesty that creates the division.

No, this doesn't create any division, I'm not saying Trump isn't going to be president.

You are intentionally trying to cheapen his victory by calling it a technicality and you know it and that is why you are being dishonest. Now you are pretending to take the high road, only idiots wouldn't realize what you are doing.

 

[HappyJoy]

Well the display of 'good manners' ended after election night. Didn't you hear? Trump totally won the popular vote and he didn't scapegoat brown people at all for his over 2 million vote loss.

Civility, sure. Who doesn't want that? However this place is poison and it's never going to happen at USMB.

You mean the Trump landslide?

There's no such thing. He won the election on a technicality, just like Bush the first time.

Technicality? The Electoral College is not a technicality, it is how every President has been elected. It is that kind of dishonesty that creates the division.

No, this doesn't create any division, I'm not saying Trump isn't going to be president.

You are intentionally trying to cheapen his victory by calling it a technicality and you know it and that is why you are being dishonest. Now you are pretending to take the high road, only idiots wouldn't realize what you are doing.

The victory was cheapened by the fact that he lost the popular vote by 2.5 million. That's where we are.

What made his victory real cheap was him claiming millions voted illegally. That's cheap.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

You mean the Trump landslide?

There's no such thing. He won the election on a technicality, just like Bush the first time.

It's not a technicality, Mona...it's the constitution.

Yes, it's in the Constitution and I'm not saying Trump didn't win. I'm saying it's time to end the EC. It's two different things.

It isn't going away... it is there for a reason and it works well. There is no way in hell you're going to get a majority of the states to amend the constitution over this.

You still can't really explain the reason though. And you don't need a constitutional amendment to render the EC meaningless.

Not an easy task, not impossible either.

It is explained quite elegantly in the Federalist Papers.

 

[EverCurious]

End American Colonialism

"But Alaska is no less a colony than were those thirteen colonies along the Atlantic seaboard in 1775. The colonialism which the United States imposes on us and which we have suffered for 88 years, is no less burdensome, no less unjust, than that against which they poured out their blood and treasure. And while most Alaskans know that full well, we repeat:

"To prove this let the facts be submitted to a candid world."

To begin at the beginning, the Treaty of Cession by which Alaska was annexed, contained a solemn and specific commitment:

"The inhabitants of the ceded territory ... shall be admitted to the enjoyment of all the rights, advantages and immunities of citizens of the United States. . . "

That was the pledge. The United States has not kept that pledge. Yet a treaty is the highest law of the land. And it is made in the clear view of all mankind.

The United States has broken that pledge for 88 years. It has not admitted the inhabitants of Alaska to the enjoyment of "all the rights, advantages and immunities of citizens of the United States.

"All the rights, advantages and immunities of citizens of the United States" would entitle us to vote for President and Vice-President, to representation in the Congress by two Senators and a Representative with a vote, and would free us from the restrictions imposed by the Organic Act of 1912, and the Act of Congress of July 30, 1886. Obviously we have neither the vote, nor the representation, nor the freedom from restrictions.

We suffer taxation without representation, which is no less "tyranny" in 1955 than it was in 1775. Actually it is much worse in 1955 than in 1775 because the idea that it was "tyranny" was then new. Since the Revolutionaries abolished it for the states a century and three-quarters ago, it has become a national synonym for something repulsive and intolerable.

We are subject to military service for the nation--a privilege and obligation we accept gladly--yet we have not voice in the making and ending of the wars into which our young men are drafted. In this respect we are worse off than our colonial forefathers. King George III did not impose conscription upon them. They were not drafted to fight for the mother country. Therefore there was no revolutionary slogan "no conscription without representation." But it is a valid slogan for Alaskans today.

The treaty obligation of 1867 is an obligation to grant us the full equality of statehood, for which Alaskans did not press in the first 80 years of their subordination, but which now, overdue, they demand as their right.
But that is only a small part of the evidence of our colonialism under the American flag. Let us submit more facts to a candid world.

First, let us ask, what is a colony? And let us answer that question.

A colony has been defined in a standard college text-book by a Columbia University professor as "a geographic area held for political, strategic and economic advantage."

That, as the facts will show, is precisely what the Territory of Alaska is--"a geographic area held for political, strategic and economic advantage." The maintenance and exploitation of those political, strategic and economic advantages by the holding power is colonialism.

The United States is that holding power.

Inherent in colonialism is an inferior political status.

Inherent in colonialism is an inferior economic status.

The inferior economic status is a consequence of the inferior political status.

The inferior economic status results from discriminatory laws and practices imposed upon the colonials through the superior political strength of the colonial power in the interest of its own non-colonial citizens.

The economic disadvantages of Alaskans which in consequence of such laws and practices redound to the advantage of others living in the states who prosper at the expense of Alaskans--these are the hall-marks of colonialism....

- http://www.asdk12.org/staff/miller_roger/pages/Alaska_Studies/Constitution/Let Us Now End American Colonialism excerpts.pdf

Alaska State Constitution, Article XV section 24:

"Ordinance No. 3 outlawed the use of fish traps in commercial salmon fishing. This issue had special significance in territorial Alaska. Fish traps, usually operated by Outside-owned canneries and widely blamed for the near-collapse of the salmon fishery, were seen as a symbol of exploitation of Alaska by absentee commercial interests. Former territorial Governor Ernest Gruening alluded to the issue in his keynote address to the convention:

The people of Alaska have repeatedly and unchangingly manifested their overwhelming opposition to fish traps. But fish trap beneficiaries, residents of the mother country, want to retain their Alaska traps. So the traps are retained. And it is the power and authority of the federal government which retains them. In a clear-cut issue between the few, profiting, non-colonial Americans and the many, seriously damaged, colonial Alaskans, the state-side interest wins hands down.

Ordinance No. 3 passed by 21,285 – 4,004."

 

[HappyJoy]

There's no such thing. He won the election on a technicality, just like Bush the first time.

It's not a technicality, Mona...it's the constitution.

Yes, it's in the Constitution and I'm not saying Trump didn't win. I'm saying it's time to end the EC. It's two different things.

It isn't going away... it is there for a reason and it works well. There is no way in hell you're going to get a majority of the states to amend the constitution over this.

You still can't really explain the reason though. And you don't need a constitutional amendment to render the EC meaningless.

Not an easy task, not impossible either.

It is explained quite elegantly in the Federalist Papers.

Really? Why don't you quote your favorite part and make an argument for keeping it?

 

[TyroneSlothrop]

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

It's not a technicality, Mona...it's the constitution.

Yes, it's in the Constitution and I'm not saying Trump didn't win. I'm saying it's time to end the EC. It's two different things.

It isn't going away... it is there for a reason and it works well. There is no way in hell you're going to get a majority of the states to amend the constitution over this.

You still can't really explain the reason though. And you don't need a constitutional amendment to render the EC meaningless.

Not an easy task, not impossible either.

It is explained quite elegantly in the Federalist Papers.

Really? Why don't you quote your favorite part and make an argument for keeping it?

I don't have a favorite part. I'm sure if you Google it, you can find it and read it.

But I know you won't.

 

[deltex1]

You mean the Trump landslide?

There's no such thing. He won the election on a technicality, just like Bush the first time.

Technicality? The Electoral College is not a technicality, it is how every President has been elected. It is that kind of dishonesty that creates the division.

No, this doesn't create any division, I'm not saying Trump isn't going to be president.

You are intentionally trying to cheapen his victory by calling it a technicality and you know it and that is why you are being dishonest. Now you are pretending to take the high road, only idiots wouldn't realize what you are doing.

The victory was cheapened by the fact that he lost the popular vote by 2.5 million. That's where we are.

What made his victory real cheap was him claiming millions voted illegally. That's cheap.

You have one point I'll admit. The vast majority of morons voted for Hillary....too bad they were all concentrated in ny and Ca...