Creationists

[daws101]

Already answered you many times and you still don't get it.

I get it since you have no proof you make shit up or believe made up shit ......

You have some nerve, considering the baloney you believe, that you can't make an argument to support. You have never given me anything that I was not taught in school. Can you think for yourself ?

Because your copy and paste jobs do not answer my questions nor refute my theories I present. Example how all mutations do damage over time if they are allowed to accumlate in the gene pool.

Thank your creator for the mechanisms he created to limit the mutation accumulation.

if by nerve you mean tenacity,then thank you.
as for the rest .nothing could be more baloney then a sky god.
I've made many arguments supporting "my" pov (not the same as belief, your willful ignorance keeps you from seeing the difference)
you are either unable or un willing to to accept them.
I, on the other hand accept that you deeply believe in your no evidence, false premise, supernatural conjecture filled fairy tales.

once again you have no proof that god exists so any so called control of genes or anything else is specious speculation.

" You have never given me anything that I was not taught in school." ywc.
it's glaringly apparent from you posts and smug hubris that school was the last time you learned anything real.


"Can you think for yourself ?" YWC.

what the fuck does that even mean?
it's obvious that you don't judging from you total lack of even the smallest bit of originality .

 

[daws101]

Put your dunce hat on the universe had a beginning,that means time had a beginning.Motion is change in location over time. Space cannot exist without time, without time there is no space, and nothing for matter to exist in.

I love putting you in your place. So where did the matter come from since time did not exist ?

what place do you think you put me in.?
since you answerd a question I never asked that makes you the dunce and an asshole with reading comp troubles.

Read your post to Irish Ram and your assertion, then maybe you will understand my response or not

your response was meaingless, my first answer stands you an asshole with reading comp problems ...if it wasn't so hilarious ,it would be sad.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Hollie, would you prefer our founding fathers conducted themselves like Arafat, or Mohammed?
They thought lying about peace while preparing for slaughter was an honorable thing.
Here is Arafat backtracking on his signing of a peace treaty, equating his actions with what Mohammad did:
"This agreement, I am not considering it more than the agreement which had been signed between our prophet Mohammed and Koraish....."
(The agreement with Koraish allowed Mohammed to pray in Mecca, which was under Koraish control, for ten years. When Mohamed grew stronger two years later, he abrogated the agreement, slaughtered the tribe of Koraish and conquered Mecca.)

 

[Hollie]

Right after you answer the question about stonings of homosexuals by Christians. In fact, please find even one example in the last 2000 years.

I think you will find that secular laws are far more fair than the laws of the Christian gods.

No need to whine like a petulant child. There are no references to Christian principles in the constitution.

No surprise. Your behavior remains unchanged in the 5 years since the Islam. forums.

You STILL dodged the question and even a 3rd grader reading this could see why. Because there are no incidences that you can find. Your references to Old Testament teachings regarding the Law of Moses don't jive with AD reality. Nice try though. We don't really need for you to answer because your silence reveals your trickery.

Oh you like dear. You have decided to sidestep your being taken to task for your false claim and you continue to carry on with nonsensical claims about Christian stoning as punishment.

Did you realize that I made no claim about Christians enforcing that punishment?

 

[The Irish Ram]

When you can predict the future with accuracy, the way SkyGod has, then I'll accept your opinion.
Until then, SkyGod rules.

 

[daws101]

I can't think of anyone able to design them here on this planet

another no answer you have no evidence god either..just a wish.

Where did these complex molecular machines come from ?

first your use of the term "complex molecular machines" is false in the sense that you are ascribing:" as·crib·ing
Definition of ASCRIBE
transitive verb
: to refer to a supposed cause, source, or author
— as·crib·able \-ˈskrī-bə-bəl\ adjective"
their existence to non quantifiable source (god) .
that in itself makes it an erroneous assumption.
the honest answer is we don't really know.
as there is no evidence of intentional design.
their existence alone is no indicator of intentional design.
so logically there must be another process at work .

 

[Hollie]

Hollie, your conviction on Christianity comes through loud and clear in your writings.
Our founding father's convictions were also loud and clear:

Samuel Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Father of the American Revolution

"And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the scepter of Him who is Prince of Peace."
--As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797.

James Madison
4th U.S. President

"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."

Please analyze these 2 statements and and see if their convictions agree with yours, or are diametrically the opposite of what you believe.
The men that shaped this country did so with their belief in Almighty God steadfast. You won't find Madison's quote in the constitution, but you will find it in the hands that penned the criteria for this nation to thrive on.

We were a blessed nation until we asked God to depart from us.
So, how's it goin?

Here is some knowledge I can impart to you.

Benjamin Franklin

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." - Benjamin Franklin, in a letter to Richard Price. October 9, 1790.

Pro

"I am fully of your Opinion respecting religious Tests; but, tho' the People of Massachusetts have not in their new Constitution kept quite clear of them, yet, if we consider what that People were 100 Years ago, we must allow they have gone great Lengths in Liberality of Sentiment on religious Subjects; and we may hope for greater Degrees of Perfection, when their Constitution, some years hence, shall be revised. If Christian Preachers had continued to teach as Christ and his Apostles did, without Salaries, and as the Quakers now do, I imagine Tests would never have existed; for I think they were invented, not so much to secure Religion itself, as the Emoluments of it. When a Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." (Benjamin Franklin, 1706-1790, American statesman, diplomat, scientist, and printer, from a letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780 http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...uotations.html

Con "In this situation of this Assembly, groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when present to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings?....I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth - that God governs in the affairs of men." (Catherine Drinker Bowen. Miracle at Phaladelphia: The Story of the Constitutional Convention, May to September 1787. New York: Book-of-the-Month Club, 1966, pp. 125-126)

It is rarely noted that Franklin presented his motion after "four or five weeks" of deliberation, during which they had never once opened in prayer. More significantly, it is never mentioned that Franklin's motion was voted down! Fine Christians, these founding fathers. Furthermore, the context is usually ignored, too. He made the motion during an especially trying week of serious disagreement, when the convention was in danger of breaking up. Cathrine Drinker Bowen comments:

Yet whether the Doctor had spoken from policy or from faith, his suggestion had been salutary, calling an assembly of doubting minds to a realization that destiny herself sat as guest and witness in this room. Franklin had made solemn reminder that a republic of thirteen united states - venture novel and daring - could not be achieved without mutual sacrifice and a summoning up of men's best, most difficult and most creative efforts. (Bowen, p. 127) Quartz Hill School of Theology

A Parting Note.

About March 1, 1790, he wrote the following in a letter to Ezra Stiles, president of Yale, who had asked him his views on religion. His answer would indicate that he remained a Deist, not a Christian, to the end:

"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble...." (Carl Van Doren. Benjamin Franklin. New York: The Viking Press, 1938, p. 777.)

He died just over a month later on April 17. Quartz Hill School of Theology

Thomas Jefferson

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

SIX HISTORIC AMERICANS, by John E. Remsburg, letter to William Short

Regarding Government Meddling With Religion

"I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment or free exercise of religion, but from that also which reserves to the states the powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise or to assume authority in religious discipline has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the states, as far as it can be in any human authority." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Miller, 1808. ME 11:428

"In matters of religion, I have considered that its free exercise is placed by the Constitution independent of the powers of the general government. I have therefore undertaken on no occasion to prescribe the religious exercises suited to it; but have left them as the Constitution found them, under the direction and discipline of State or Church authorities acknowledged by the several religious societies." --Thomas Jefferson: 2nd Inaugural Address, 1805. ME 3:378

"To suffer the civil magistrate to intrude his powers into the field of opinion and to restrain the profession or propagation of principles on supposition of their ill tendency is a dangerous fallacy which at once destroys all religious liberty, because he being of course judge of that tendency will make his opinions the rule of judgment and approve or condemn the sentiments of others only as they shall square with or differ from his own." --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2: 546

"It is proposed that I should recommend, not prescribe, a day of fasting and prayer. That is, that I should indirectly assume to the United States an authority over religious exercises which the Constitution has directly precluded them from. It must be meant, too, that this recommendation is to carry some authority and to be sanctioned by some penalty on those who disregard it; not indeed of fine and imprisonment, but of some degree of proscription, perhaps in public opinion. And does the change in the nature of the penalty make the recommendation less a law of conduct for those to whom it is directed?... Civil powers alone have been given to the President of the United States, and no authority to direct the religious exercises of his constituents." --Thomas Jefferson to Samuel Miller, 1808. ME 11:428

"No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor... otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief... All men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain their opinions in matters of religion, and... the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities." --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2:546

Regarding Religion Meddling with Government

"Whenever... preachers, instead of a lesson in religion, put [their congregation] off with a discourse on the Copernican system, on chemical affinities, on the construction of government, or the characters or conduct of those administering it, it is a breach of contract, depriving their audience of the kind of service for which they are salaried, and giving them, instead of it, what they did not want, or, if wanted, would rather seek from better sources in that particular art of science." --Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:281

"I do not know that it is a duty to disturb by missionaries the religion and peace of other countries, who may think themselves bound to extinguish by fire and fagot the heresies to which we give the name of conversions, and quote our own example for it. Were the Pope, or his holy allies, to send in mission to us some thousands of Jesuit priests to convert us to their orthodoxy, I suspect that we should deem and treat it as a national aggression on our peace and faith." --Thomas Jefferson to Michael Megear, 1823. ME 15:434

"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man." --Thomas Jefferson to Jeremiah Moor, 1800.

"I am for freedom of religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendency of one sect over another." --Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799. ME 10:78

"The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion." --Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 1800. ME 10:173

"Believing... that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." --Thomas Jefferson to Danbury Baptists, 1802. ME 16:281

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes." --Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, 1813. ME 14:21

Regarding Criminal Acts

"The declaration that religious faith shall be unpunished does not give immunity to criminal acts dictated by religious error." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1788. ME 7:98

"If anything pass in a religious meeting seditiously and contrary to the public peace, let it be punished in the same manner and no otherwise than as if it had happened in a fair or market." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers 1:548

"It is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government, for its officers to interfere [in the propagation of religious teachings] when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order." --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2:546

"Whatsoever is lawful in the Commonwealth or permitted to the subject in the ordinary way cannot be forbidden to him for religious uses; and whatsoever is prejudicial to the Commonwealth in their ordinary uses and, therefore, prohibited by the laws, ought not to be permitted to churches in their sacred rites. For instance, it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children. It is ordinarily lawful (or temporarily lawful) to kill calves or lambs; they may, therefore, be religiously sacrificed. But if the good of the State required a temporary suspension of killing lambs, as during a siege, sacrifices of them may then be rightfully suspended also. This is the true extent of toleration." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers 1:547

Primary Source of Quotations

James Madison

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." --James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance

Regarding State Meddling with Church

"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together." --James Madison in a letter to Edward Livingston in 1822

"It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will best be guarded against by an entire abstinence of the Government from interference in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect against trespasses on its legal rights by others."--James Madison, "James Madison on Religious Liberty"

"To the Baptist Churches on Neal's Greek on Black Creek, North Carolina I have received, fellow-citizens, your address, approving my objection to the Bill containing a grant of public land to the Baptist Church at Salem Meeting House, Mississippi Territory. Having always regarded the practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government as essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, I could not have otherwise discharged my duty on the occasion which presented itself." --James Madison, Letter to Baptist Churches in North Carolina, June 3, 1811

"Congress should not establish a religion and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contary to their conscience, or that one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combined together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform." --James Madison, Annals of Congress, Sat Aug 15th, 1789 pages 730 - 731.

Regarding Church Meddling with State

"The Civil Government, though bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions with complete success, whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the state." --James Madison

"Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and & Gov't in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history." --James Madison, 1820

"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." --James Madison

"The number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the state." --James Madison, 1819

"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries." --James Madison, 1803

Sources Little-Known U.S. Document Proclaims America's Government is Secular - The Early America Review, Summer 1997 Madison on church and state http://atheism.about.com/library/quo...q_JMadison.htm

Thomas Paine

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church." (Richard Emery Roberts, ed. "Excerpts from The Age of Reason". Selected Writings of Thomas Paine.

Regarding State Meddling with Church

"As to religion, I hold it to be the indispensable duty of all government, to protect all conscientious professors thereof, and I know of no other business which government hath to do therewith. . . ." ---Thomas Paine, "Common Sense", 1776

Regarding Church Meddling with State

"Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all law-religions, or religions established by law." --Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man, 1791

"Soon after I had published the pamphlet COMMON SENSE, in America, I saw the exceeding probability that a revolution in the system of government would be followed by a revolution in the system of religion. The adulterous connection of church and state, wherever it had taken place, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, had so effectually prohibited, by pains and penalties, every discussion upon established creeds, and upon first principles of religion, that until the system of government should be changed, those subjects could not be brought fairly and openly before the world; but that whenever this should be done, a revolution in the system of religion would follow. Human inventions and priest-craft would be detected; and man would return to the pure, unmixed, and unadulterated belief of one God, and no more." --Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794

"EVERY national church or religion has established itself by pretending some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals. The Jews have their Moses; the Christians their Jesus Christ, their apostles and saints; and the Turks their Mahomet; as if the way to God was not open to every man alike.

"Each of those churches shows certain books, which they call revelation, or the Word of God. The Jews say that their Word of God was given by God to Moses face to face; the Christians say, that their Word of God came by divine inspiration; and the Turks say, that their Word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from heaven. Each of those churches accuses the other of unbelief; and, for my own part, I disbelieve them all." --Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794

"The Church was resolved to have a New Testament, and as, after the lapse of more than three hundred years, no handwriting could be proved or disproved, the Church, which like former impostors had then gotten possession of the State, had everything its own way. It invented creeds, such as that called the Apostle's Creed, the Nicean Creed, the Athanasian Creed, and out of the loads of rubbish that were presented it voted four to be Gospels, and others to be Epistles, as we now find them arranged." --Thomas Paine

But Hey, Don't Hold Back.

"The age of ignorance commenced with the Christian system."--Thomas Paine, 2000 Years of Disbelief

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, not by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church." --Thomas Paine, Excerpts from The Age of Reason: Selected Writings of Thomas Paine, edited by Richard Emery Robers, NY Everybody's Vacation Publishing Co, 1945, p.342

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." --Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

"People in general do not know what wickedness there is in this pretended word of God. Brought up in habits of superstition, they take it for granted that the Bible is true, and that it is good; they permit themselves not to doubt of it, and they carry the ideas they form of the benevolence of the Almighty to the book which they have been taught to believe was written by his authority. Good heavens! it is quite another thing; it is a book of lies, wickedness, and blasphemy; for what can be greater blasphemy than to ascribe the wickedness of man to the orders of the Almighty?" ---Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

"There is scarcely any part of science, or anything in nature, which those imposters and blasphemers of science, called priests, as well Christians as Jews, have not, at some time or other, perverted, or sought to pervert to the purpose of superstition and falsehood." -- Thomas Paine

"Yet this is trash that the Church imposes upon the world as the Word of God; this is the collection of lies and contradictions called the Holy Bible! this is the rubbish called Revealed Religion!" -- Thomas Paine

Sources

http://www.thomaspaine.org/Archives/AOR1.html http://www.atheism.org/~godlessheathen/Founders.html Thomas Paine - Wikiquote http://www.thomaspaine.org/contents.html http://paganinfo.50g.com/quotes.htm

 

[daws101]

explain ? what does your response have to do with molecular machines ?

What do your gods have to do with biological mechanisms?

You claim they exhibit "design", yet only incompetent gods could have designed so many failures.

YAHWEH created everything perfect and sin brought forth entropy,we are living in man's world not YAHWEH'S world. The imperfections we see in this world was the result of man's rebellion.

wow! how convenient ! it's a nice line of bullshit though!
totally unfounded in reality , it a classic dodge.
appealing to a non existent authority when your ass in in a crack !

 

[daws101]

explain ? what does your response have to do with molecular machines ?

What do your gods have to do with biological mechanisms?

You claim they exhibit "design", yet only incompetent gods could have designed so many failures.

Maybe its the power of your close personal friend, Satan.

another good one bring up another non existent deity to explain your lack of an answer!

 

[Youwerecreated]

what place do you think you put me in.?
since you answerd a question I never asked that makes you the dunce and an asshole with reading comp troubles.

Read your post to Irish Ram and your assertion, then maybe you will understand my response or not

your response was meaingless, my first answer stands you an asshole with reading comp problems ...if it wasn't so hilarious ,it would be sad.

Truth hurts don't it.

The universe had a beginning. Time and space had a beginning. That means matter had a beginning. Where did the matter come from to form the universe and life ?

 

[Youwerecreated]

another no answer you have no evidence god either..just a wish.

Where did these complex molecular machines come from ?

first your use of the term "complex molecular machines" is false in the sense that you are ascribing:" as·crib·ing
Definition of ASCRIBE
transitive verb
: to refer to a supposed cause, source, or author
— as·crib·able \-ˈskrī-bə-bəl\ adjective"
their existence to non quantifiable source (god) .
that in itself makes it an erroneous assumption.
the honest answer is we don't really know.
as there is no evidence of intentional design.
their existence alone is no indicator of intentional design.
so logically there must be another process at work .

The erroneous assumtion is that the first molecular machines came about through evolution. They had to be designed,could not come about by chance.

 

[daws101]

YWC, more info on left-handed amino acids. Presented in honor of Daws, who never responded to your questions to him on this topic.

CEH: Left-Handed Amino Acid Puzzle Remains

when you post a credible actual scientific study of the so called puzzle.
then I'll answer.
this how ever is not even close.
it's more like a movie review written by an actor not cast in the film!


How Handedness Arises
Source: University of California - Los Angeles press release






Origin & Evolution of Life
Posted: 05/13/12

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Summary: A new study is helping scientists understand how chirality, or 'handedness,' occurs in the majority of proteins and functional molecules in living organisms on Earth.







Most proteins and functional molecules in our bodies are present in 'left-handed' and 'right-handed' forms. Compounds with this property are known as chiral, and exist as mirror images of each other. This chirality may have played an important role in life's origin and evolution. For instance, life as we know it makes and uses only 'left-handed' amino acids. Credit: NASA

The overwhelming majority of proteins and other functional molecules in our bodies display a striking molecular characteristic: They can exist in two distinct forms that are mirror images of each other, like your right hand and left hand. Surprisingly, each of our bodies prefers only one of these molecular forms.

This mirror-image phenomenon — known as chirality or "handedness" — has captured the imagination of a UCLA research group led by Thomas G. Mason, a professor of chemistry and physics and a member of the California NanoSystems Institute at UCLA.

Mason has been exploring how and why chirality arises, and his newest findings on the physical origins of the phenomenon were published May 1 in the journal Nature Communications.

"Objects like our hands are chiral, while objects like regular triangles are achiral, meaning they don't have a handedness to them," said Mason, the senior author of the study. "Achiral objects can be easily superimposed on top of one another."

Why many of the important functional molecules in our bodies almost always occur in just one chiral form when they could potentially exist in either is a mystery that has confounded researchers for years.

"Our bodies contain important molecules like proteins that overwhelmingly have one type of chirality," Mason said. "The other chiral form is essentially not found. I find that fascinating. We asked, 'Could this biological preference of a particular chirality possibly have a physical origin?'"

In addressing this question, Mason and his team sought to discover how chirality occurs in the first place. Their findings offer new insights into how the phenomenon can arise spontaneously, even with achiral building-blocks.

Mason and his colleagues used a manufacturing technique called lithography, which is the basis for making computer chips, to make millions of microscale particles in the shape of achiral triangles. In the past, Mason has used this technique to "print" particles in a wide variety of shapes, and even in the form of letters of the alphabet.


Colored patches represent parallelogram outlines around pairs of triangles that have formed chiral super-structures. Parallelograms having different "handedness" and orientations are color-coded and superimposed over each other. Credit: Thomas G. Mason and Kun Zhao

Using optical microscopy, the researchers then studied very dense systems of these lithographic triangular particles. To their surprise, they discovered that the achiral triangles spontaneously arranged themselves to form two-triangle "super-structures," with each super-structure exhibiting a particular chirality.

In the image that accompanies this article, the colored outlines in the field of triangles indicate chiral super-structures having particular orientations.

So what is causing this phenomenon to occur? Entropy, says Mason. His group has shown for the first time that chiral structures can originate from physical entropic forces acting on uniform achiral particles.

"It's quite bizarre," Mason said. "You're starting with achiral components — triangles — which undergo Brownian motion and you end up with the spontaneous formation of super-structures that have a handedness or chirality. I would never have anticipated that in a million years."

Entropy is usually thought of as a disordering force, but that doesn't capture its subtler aspects. In this case, when the triangular particles are diffusing and interacting at very high densities on a flat surface, each particle can actually maximize its "wiggle room" by becoming partially ordered into a liquid crystal (a phase of matter between a liquid and a solid) made out of chiral super-structures of triangles.

"We discovered that just two physical ingredients — entropy and particle shape — are enough to cause chirality to appear spontaneously in dense systems," Mason said. "In my 25 years of doing research, I never thought that I would see chirality occur in a system of achiral objects driven by entropic forces."

As for the future of this research, "We are very interested to see what happens with other shapes and if we can eventually control the chiral formations that we see occurring here spontaneously," he said.

"To me, it's intriguing, because I think about the chiral preference in biology," Mason added. "How did this chiral preference happen? What are the minimum ingredients for that to occur? We're learning some new physical rules, but the story in biology is far from complete. We have added another chapter to the story, and I'm amazed by these findings."

To learn more, a message board accompanies the publication in Nature Communications, an online journal, as a forum for interactive discussion.


The right-handed version of carvone smells like caraway seeds, but the left-handed one has a peppermint odor. Credit: National Museum of American History

This research was funded by the University of California. Kun Zhao, a postdoctoral researcher in Mason's laboratory, made many key contributions, including fabricating the triangle particles, creating the two-dimensional system of particles, performing the optical microscopy experiments, carrying out extensive particle-tracking analysis and interpreting the results.

Along with Mason, co-author Robijn Bruinsma, a UCLA professor of theoretical physics and a member of the California NanoSystems Institute at UCLA, contributed to the understanding of the chiral symmetry breaking and the liquid crystal phases.


http://www.astrobio.net/pressrelease/4751/how-handedness-arises

 

[daws101]

Where did these complex molecular machines come from ?

first your use of the term "complex molecular machines" is false in the sense that you are ascribing:" as·crib·ing
Definition of ASCRIBE
transitive verb
: to refer to a supposed cause, source, or author
— as·crib·able \-ˈskrī-bə-bəl\ adjective"
their existence to non quantifiable source (god) .
that in itself makes it an erroneous assumption.
the honest answer is we don't really know.
as there is no evidence of intentional design.
their existence alone is no indicator of intentional design.
so logically there must be another process at work .

The erroneous assumtion is that the first molecular machines came about through evolution. They had to be designed,could not come about by chance.

false! you have no proof of design or a designer so as always you're talking out your ass.
it seems the concept of having actual proof ..befuddles you not surprising

 

[Youwerecreated]

What do your gods have to do with biological mechanisms?

You claim they exhibit "design", yet only incompetent gods could have designed so many failures.

YAHWEH created everything perfect and sin brought forth entropy,we are living in man's world not YAHWEH'S world. The imperfections we see in this world was the result of man's rebellion.

wow! how convenient ! it's a nice line of bullshit though!
totally unfounded in reality , it a classic dodge.
appealing to a non existent authority when your ass in in a crack !

Not convenient,it's reality. If everything is suffering from entropy which it is, How is everything still here after 13 to 20 billion years ? Once a car gets a rust spot it's just a matter of time before the car is ate up by rust.

If the moon had started receding from being in contact with the earth, it would have taken only 1.37 billion years to reach its present distance. This is the maximum possible age far too young for evolution and much younger than the radiometric dating method assigned to moon rocks. What say you ?

 

[Youwerecreated]

YWC, more info on left-handed amino acids. Presented in honor of Daws, who never responded to your questions to him on this topic.

CEH: Left-Handed Amino Acid Puzzle Remains

when you post a credible actual scientific study of the so called puzzle.
then I'll answer.
this how ever is not even close.
it's more like a movie review written by an actor not cast in the film!


How Handedness Arises
Source: University of California - Los Angeles press release






Origin & Evolution of Life
Posted: 05/13/12

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Summary: A new study is helping scientists understand how chirality, or 'handedness,' occurs in the majority of proteins and functional molecules in living organisms on Earth.







Most proteins and functional molecules in our bodies are present in 'left-handed' and 'right-handed' forms. Compounds with this property are known as chiral, and exist as mirror images of each other. This chirality may have played an important role in life's origin and evolution. For instance, life as we know it makes and uses only 'left-handed' amino acids. Credit: NASA

The overwhelming majority of proteins and other functional molecules in our bodies display a striking molecular characteristic: They can exist in two distinct forms that are mirror images of each other, like your right hand and left hand. Surprisingly, each of our bodies prefers only one of these molecular forms.

This mirror-image phenomenon — known as chirality or "handedness" — has captured the imagination of a UCLA research group led by Thomas G. Mason, a professor of chemistry and physics and a member of the California NanoSystems Institute at UCLA.

Mason has been exploring how and why chirality arises, and his newest findings on the physical origins of the phenomenon were published May 1 in the journal Nature Communications.

"Objects like our hands are chiral, while objects like regular triangles are achiral, meaning they don't have a handedness to them," said Mason, the senior author of the study. "Achiral objects can be easily superimposed on top of one another."

Why many of the important functional molecules in our bodies almost always occur in just one chiral form when they could potentially exist in either is a mystery that has confounded researchers for years.

"Our bodies contain important molecules like proteins that overwhelmingly have one type of chirality," Mason said. "The other chiral form is essentially not found. I find that fascinating. We asked, 'Could this biological preference of a particular chirality possibly have a physical origin?'"

In addressing this question, Mason and his team sought to discover how chirality occurs in the first place. Their findings offer new insights into how the phenomenon can arise spontaneously, even with achiral building-blocks.

Mason and his colleagues used a manufacturing technique called lithography, which is the basis for making computer chips, to make millions of microscale particles in the shape of achiral triangles. In the past, Mason has used this technique to "print" particles in a wide variety of shapes, and even in the form of letters of the alphabet.


Colored patches represent parallelogram outlines around pairs of triangles that have formed chiral super-structures. Parallelograms having different "handedness" and orientations are color-coded and superimposed over each other. Credit: Thomas G. Mason and Kun Zhao

Using optical microscopy, the researchers then studied very dense systems of these lithographic triangular particles. To their surprise, they discovered that the achiral triangles spontaneously arranged themselves to form two-triangle "super-structures," with each super-structure exhibiting a particular chirality.

In the image that accompanies this article, the colored outlines in the field of triangles indicate chiral super-structures having particular orientations.

So what is causing this phenomenon to occur? Entropy, says Mason. His group has shown for the first time that chiral structures can originate from physical entropic forces acting on uniform achiral particles.

"It's quite bizarre," Mason said. "You're starting with achiral components — triangles — which undergo Brownian motion and you end up with the spontaneous formation of super-structures that have a handedness or chirality. I would never have anticipated that in a million years."

Entropy is usually thought of as a disordering force, but that doesn't capture its subtler aspects. In this case, when the triangular particles are diffusing and interacting at very high densities on a flat surface, each particle can actually maximize its "wiggle room" by becoming partially ordered into a liquid crystal (a phase of matter between a liquid and a solid) made out of chiral super-structures of triangles.

"We discovered that just two physical ingredients — entropy and particle shape — are enough to cause chirality to appear spontaneously in dense systems," Mason said. "In my 25 years of doing research, I never thought that I would see chirality occur in a system of achiral objects driven by entropic forces."

As for the future of this research, "We are very interested to see what happens with other shapes and if we can eventually control the chiral formations that we see occurring here spontaneously," he said.

"To me, it's intriguing, because I think about the chiral preference in biology," Mason added. "How did this chiral preference happen? What are the minimum ingredients for that to occur? We're learning some new physical rules, but the story in biology is far from complete. We have added another chapter to the story, and I'm amazed by these findings."

To learn more, a message board accompanies the publication in Nature Communications, an online journal, as a forum for interactive discussion.


The right-handed version of carvone smells like caraway seeds, but the left-handed one has a peppermint odor. Credit: National Museum of American History

This research was funded by the University of California. Kun Zhao, a postdoctoral researcher in Mason's laboratory, made many key contributions, including fabricating the triangle particles, creating the two-dimensional system of particles, performing the optical microscopy experiments, carrying out extensive particle-tracking analysis and interpreting the results.

Along with Mason, co-author Robijn Bruinsma, a UCLA professor of theoretical physics and a member of the California NanoSystems Institute at UCLA, contributed to the understanding of the chiral symmetry breaking and the liquid crystal phases.


How Handedness Arises

You don't understand the functions of right handed and laft handed amino acids even when it was explained to you.

 

[Youwerecreated]

first your use of the term "complex molecular machines" is false in the sense that you are ascribing:" as·crib·ing
Definition of ASCRIBE
transitive verb
: to refer to a supposed cause, source, or author
— as·crib·able \-ˈskrī-bə-bəl\ adjective"
their existence to non quantifiable source (god) .
that in itself makes it an erroneous assumption.
the honest answer is we don't really know.
as there is no evidence of intentional design.
their existence alone is no indicator of intentional design.
so logically there must be another process at work .

The erroneous assumtion is that the first molecular machines came about through evolution. They had to be designed,could not come about by chance.

false! you have no proof of design or a designer so as always you're talking out your ass.
it seems the concept of having actual proof ..befuddles you not surprising

Do you have evidence for the first molecular machines being designed by a random chance process ?without the evidence by your reasoning you are talking out your ass Daws.

 

[daws101]

There is plenty of evidence of God but one has to be open to the possibility of God existing to see the evidence.

Substitute the Easter Bunny for the gods in your comment above.

It makes just as much sense.

OK, but I don't think the easter bunny could have created all we see. Rabbits don't show much intelligence do they ?

since the easter bunny is not a "normal" rabbit there is no reason to assume he or she could not do what you claim god does.
both are the creation of myth, so any thing is possible.
btw your need to believe in god it see evidence story is nonsense.real evidence is there for everyone to see.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Substitute the Easter Bunny for the gods in your comment above.

It makes just as much sense.

OK, but I don't think the easter bunny could have created all we see. Rabbits don't show much intelligence do they ?

since the easter bunny is not a "normal" rabbit there is no reason to assume he or she could not do what you claim god does.
both are the creation of myth, so any thing is possible.
btw your need to believe in god it see evidence story is nonsense.real evidence is there for everyone to see.

Ignoring my questions daws ?

 

[Hollie]

Where did these complex molecular machines come from ?

first your use of the term "complex molecular machines" is false in the sense that you are ascribing:" as·crib·ing
Definition of ASCRIBE
transitive verb
: to refer to a supposed cause, source, or author
— as·crib·able \-ˈskrī-bə-bəl\ adjective"
their existence to non quantifiable source (god) .
that in itself makes it an erroneous assumption.
the honest answer is we don't really know.
as there is no evidence of intentional design.
their existence alone is no indicator of intentional design.
so logically there must be another process at work .

The erroneous assumtion is that the first molecular machines came about through evolution. .They had to be designed,could not come about by chance

The erroneous assumptions (plural), are on your part. "Molecular machines" is not a term of any significance.

Secondly, you make a nonsense claim that "They had to be designed,could not come about by chance". totally unsupported and completely without merit.

Bible thumping is not going to support that claim.

 

[daws101]

The erroneous assumtion is that the first molecular machines came about through evolution. They had to be designed,could not come about by chance.

false! you have no proof of design or a designer so as always you're talking out your ass.
it seems the concept of having actual proof ..befuddles you not surprising

Do you have evidence for the first molecular machines being designed by a random chance process ?without the evidence by your reasoning you are talking out your ass Daws.

NO, but then again YOU have no evidence to prove they had to be designed.
none at all.
you assume that since there is a void in actual scientific data on the subject that your fairy tale fill that void.
that's not only dishonest but it's forcing your belief into an area where objectivity must remain or it's no longer science ,but dogma.
I'd say you were trying to replace science with superstition to help the last days along.
but neither one of you are that smart or that subtle