Disagree with 'liberals' on anything any you are thrown out

[Billy_Kinetta]

Everyone is liberal and conservative, the thing is the words often have no real meaning especially in online discussions. They get defined as the user sees fit and often have no connection even to the debate. I call myself liberal mostly because everyone who has lived a full life realizes very quickly empathy, compassion, and flexibility. Look at gays or transgender people and the nonacceptance by some. Hardly a realistic point of view but you probably know by now how stones are thrown. I've been on this site a long time and it seems the same stuff is put forward as truth so I'll simply link and post a few earlier thoughts and a parable.

A Conservative Wakes Up

LOL More bizarre word salad, up is really down, and down is sideways or so it seems sometimes. I find it fascinating that the right can only define itself in reaction to a made up bogeyman - the left. One could easily change things around and say this is the right. Proof friends is still in the pudding, when the right can point to some accomplishment other than word salad about their imaginary left, then maybe they would be taken seriously.

Use this handy parable to understand American politics

Conservatism in a Nutshell

A man is lost in the woods and it starts snowing, off in the distance he sees a cabin. Slowly he makes his way only to find a locked gate, he rings the bell and a voice asks what he wants. He tells the voice his plight and is told by the voice that there is a church down the road and that they will pray for him.

Libertarianism in a Nutshell

The snow continues and growing more tired and cold, the man sees another cabin, struggling he barely makes it, he knocks and finally opens the door to warm himself. There is a full kettle of hot soup, he helps himself. Soon out of a back room comes a man, he scolds the man and tells him to leave as this is private property. The man stumbles out the door.

Liberalism in a Nutshell

Nearly exhausted the man sees a third cabin. Slowly he makes his way, opens the door and warms himself. There is soup in a kettle and he helps himself. From a back room a woman enters, she sits down next to him and they talk. He sleeps the night on the floor and the next morning goes on his way.

"What is conservatism? Is it not adherence to the old and tried, against the new and untried?" Abraham Lincoln Source: February 27, 1860 Cooper Union

"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid." President Dwight Eisenhower

"President Eisenhower describes his administration's political philosophy as 'dynamic conservatism,' then as 'progressive, dynamic conservatism,' then as 'progressive moderation,' then as 'moderate progressivism,' and then as 'positive progressivism.'" William Manchester quote from 'The Power and the Glory'

How the Right Hijacked the Magic Words. How the Right Hijacked the Magic Words

To understand the conservative mind check this book out, the fellows above are simply contemporary versions. 'The Rhetoric of Reaction: Perversity, Futility, Jeopardy' Albert O. Hirschman

I have two other posts in this thread [link below], that it is still active demonstrates a level of partisanship that exists in America today and says lots about why we are declining as a nation. No longer is debate over ideas or policies, it is rather finger pointing paid for by powers that benefit from the confusion. Agitprop rules the mind of too many.

Why do people hate Liberals? post# 114
Why do people hate Liberals? post# 1604

"If by a 'Liberal' they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people -their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties -- someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a 'Liberal,' then I'm proud to say I'm a 'Liberal.'" President John F Kennedy on September 14, 1960

 

[Disir]

This started many years ago and I considered myself quite liberal when I compared myself to many conservatives but the minute I happen to defend anything that sounded remotely conservative for even the slightest reason I was immediately thrown out of the group. They didn't hold a vote or anything but more just started labeling me as 'conservative' simply because I had no issue with creationist themselves. I didn't agree with them but I didn't care if they believed what they believed. I came to the conclusion that 'liberals' only care about one thing and that is the socialist agenda in this country and the more they did the less tolerant they became. I don't know if anyone else has had this experience of being expelled from the democratic party simply because you disagreed with them on anything at all.

Those are progressives you're describing. We liberals don't care. We just want everyone to do well, for all to have good health, and make a fair wage. Whatever someone chooses to believe is their business so long as they don't try and make me believe it. Progressives on the other hand are about power, the collection of it, and the abuse of it against those they don't like.

Progressives are scum.

Interesting westwall I've been using liberals to mean the ones following along with the politicized corporate Democrats,
and progressives to mean the independent Democrats and Greens trying to set up the right programs directly instead of relying on govt which isn't happening.

I was told progressive actually came from conservative types imposing reforms.
Since I align more with Constitutionalists seeking to reform govt by enforcing
common principles to streamline and reorganize resources, I thought this progressive
label better fits me, as most of the active Constitutionalists I find are conservative.
However I don't believe in coercing people either by political or religious groups, but believe in making policies and reforms by consent of parties affected. So that part is more Green.
For the inclusion of diversity and prochoice position, this aligns with Democrats, as well
as helping the poor and disadvantaged "minority interests." With enforcing the Constitution to check govt, that aligns with Libertarians and Republicans. I can't find that with most Democrats.

I am a liberal. And you guys can keep trying to divide us until it is meaningless.............for you. Classification, classification, classification.

OK Disir and westwall so which way are we going to refer to the REAL liberals/progressives and the COMMERCIAL/CORPORATE sellouts?
Since people complain more about "liberals pushing social agenda through govt" I was using Liberal for that type, the Clinton type that's really corporate
but CALLED "liberal" in the media so everyone CALLS them liberals.

Fewer people call the REAL liberal/left movement by progressive which really came from a conservative reform movement that was seen as rather oppressive.
But when I meet "liberal left" activists who are really pushing on the GRASSROOTS level, that is the right way, to set up your own programs
and then it trickles up to the govt by catching with people and spreading by free choice and voluntary adoption of better solutions.
So I was using "progressive" to mean the REAL left.

Disir if you object to dividing people by "denomination" what do you call the two groups:
1. one is like how the Conservatives complain about -- the sheep who follow the leader who imposes liberal BELIEFS through govt as MANDATES FORCED ON the Public
2. the other are the REAL meaning and purpose, but it's not done by imposing unconstitutionally, it's implemented by consensus and INCLUSION where
people of all diverse groups CHOOSE to collaborate by free will and reason, by proving SECULARLY these solutions work better (not faith based, imposed like a religion)

A. First, do we all agree there are the corporate sell out types that push agenda for power and
it goes against the principles of prochoice and inclusion of diversity by coercion/exclusion
And this is the public image created by imposing liberal BELIEFS on others who disagree and contest these social policies as unconstitutional
B. versus people who LIVE and IMPLEMENT the liberal principles by example (and don't force it on others against their will by bullying)

Do we agree there are two types?
And do we need a term to distinguish these two?
Thanks!

A. Do we agree that people that use divisional tactics to place people in tribes and groups are out to profit and obtain power?
You mean propaganda and shills? You know, like pretending a business is like "artistic expression" to attempt to make it a violation of rights? Like repeating it makes it any true-er. Do you know choosy moms choose Jiff?

We have names for these tactics. It's the same tactic used by the right to label people as unAmerican or pejoratively using the term Socialist and the left uses racist, homophobic and Socialist. It's propaganda, Emily. That's what you call it.

I get it. You're mad. It isn't necessary to reinvent the wheel. The only way to fight it is to follow the money.(Usually to Delaware where there is a plethora of shell companies, but I digress.) You either buy into the propaganda or you don't. The more you try to reclassify individuals the more you play right into their hands. Divide, divide, divide and hide behind a party like the Republicans, Democrats, Libertarians and, apparently, the Constitutional party.

 

[Moonglow]

Both sides are guilty of that. I have been accused of being a liberal or conservative so many times on this board that I just laugh it off anymore.

anyone ever accuse you of being a xenophobic misogynist cis-gendered shitlord? that's the politically correct terminology for ''white man'' on some college campuses these days. blacks men are still privileged enough to be called african-americans.

Yes. And I respond, "I'm not cis-gendered."

I'm definitely NOT cis-party!

All my conservative friends tell me I'm "not really a Democrat"
And someday I'll come out as a conservative Republican, but I don't think so.
When I tell them I'm prochoice and I have voted for Sheila Jackson Lee.
That sorta gives me away, no Republican I know would do THAT!

My friends who are Democrats/Greens ie Peace and Justice/KPFT types
do not question I am on that side, mostly because I respect diversity and inclusion to reach consensus.

When it won't make a difference, being clear Texas is going to give all the votes to the GOP anyway,
I will vote Green to help work toward their goals of growing as a party.
Since it will take a combination of contributions, leadership and model solutions
from ALL parties, the Green idea of "proportional representation" and decisions by consensus
make the best template I have found to piece together people and platforms from the other parties.

I vote for green also...

She was talking about the party.

It works in both cases..

 

[Mac1958]

This started many years ago and I considered myself quite liberal when I compared myself to many conservatives but the minute I happen to defend anything that sounded remotely conservative for even the slightest reason I was immediately thrown out of the group. They didn't hold a vote or anything but more just started labeling me as 'conservative' simply because I had no issue with creationist themselves. I didn't agree with them but I didn't care if they believed what they believed. I came to the conclusion that 'liberals' only care about one thing and that is the socialist agenda in this country and the more they did the less tolerant they became. I don't know if anyone else has had this experience of being expelled from the democratic party simply because you disagreed with them on anything at all.

I can relate.

Just remember that the people perpetrating this are not traditional liberals, they're Regressive Leftists. Distortions, perversions of liberalism.

The problem is that their cancer appears to be spreading -- helped in no small part by the absolutist behaviors of the hard Right.
.

So @Mac1950 / SuperDemocrat: what to call that bunch - dogmatic bullies? Regressives?
Billy_Kinetta agrees with me that @C_Clayton's approach is NOT inclusive.
But I find westwall to be workable with, and I do try to remove any barriers preventing mutual inclusion.

What do you call the type that DOES include all people of all views, like some of the Greens and Tea Party?
What do you call the type that kicks out the opposition in order to dominate? bullying by coercion or exclusion?

Regressive sounds like going backwards. But even the bully liberals ARE trying to push forward, not backwards,
but are doing it by imposing beliefs instead of building a consensus and investing in programs by free choice.

I got the term "Regressive Leftist" from three honest liberals: Bill Maher, Richard Dawkins and (the guy who actually coined it) Majiid Nawaz. His description of "Regressive Left" is below.

Traditional, honest liberals such as those above really do welcome all voices, they really do want everyone to be heard, they really don't try to shut people up, and perhaps most importantly, they have an innate humility that says "I really don't have all the answers, let's hear your idea and see what happens if we talk about it".

They are truly CURIOUS.

Anyone who claims that the above represents today's hard Left is either in deep denial or is an abject liar. Or both.

 

[Disir]

Traditional, honest liberals such as those above really do welcome all voices, they really do want everyone to be heard, they really don't try to shut people up, and perhaps most importantly, they have an innate humility that says "I really don't have all the answers, let's hear your idea and see what happens if we talk about it".

They are truly CURIOUS.

You mean they sit down at the dinner table and talk to people because they are people first and not a party? You know, we aren't alien creatures that have never had anything to do with each other. We are the people at the stores, on the streets, neighbors, coworkers, etc. We solve problems all the time and we don't know what political party the other is. The only division is the one someone else plants in your head.

 

[DGS49]

It wasn't until I went to law school as an adult (28-32) that I realized (a) that I automatically "dis-liked" people who disagreed with me, and that (b) this was counterproductive and stupid, and (c) there are not too many people around who can DEFEND their positions with facts and logic against someone who disagrees and can do the same.

Ben Shapiro's first rule of debating with a Liberal is basically, don't waste your time unless the Liberal in question is amenable to logical arguments. But the same rule holds true for Liberals. Don't waste your time arguing with a Conservative who either cannot or will not engage in a rational discussion.

Get a group of Libs together (or Cons), and the person taking positions that run counter to the prevailing ideology will be ostracized. The Herd Mentality. Human Nature.

 

[LoneLaugher]

As usual, Mac equates liberals holding bigots accountable for their bigotry to be an example of intolerance.

I have never made an attempt to shut anyone up or avoid hearing the other side of an argument. I have, however, told people who are bigots that I think they are bigots.

To Mac, that act is "shutting them up". Telling someone that they are a bigot is "intimidation" and "consequences". In fact, the very fear that they will be called a bigot is enough to send a nutbag into a coma. All the while whining about how their freedom of speech is going to be shut down if they say the bigoted thing that is on their mind.

On the other hand, Mac had me on iggy for a couple of years. I suppose that is because he would never "shut anyone up". He really demonstrated a willingness to hear me and try to understand where I was coming from. Classic.

I ask Mac to name names all the time. Who are the people who speak for "regressive lefties"? Obama? Clinton? Sanders? Warren? Biden? Maddow? Oprah? Reiner?

Yes...this is boring as we've covered it literally hundreds of times in the past year.

 

[Mac1958]

Traditional, honest liberals such as those above really do welcome all voices, they really do want everyone to be heard, they really don't try to shut people up, and perhaps most importantly, they have an innate humility that says "I really don't have all the answers, let's hear your idea and see what happens if we talk about it".

They are truly CURIOUS.

You mean they sit down at the dinner table and talk to people because they are people first and not a party? You know, we aren't alien creatures that have never had anything to do with each other. We are the people at the stores, on the streets, neighbors, coworkers, etc. We solve problems all the time and we don't know what political party the other is. The only division is the one someone else plants in your head.

Yes, it's always someone else. I get that from both sides.
.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Westwall is a poster who encourages discussion and disagreement in order to bring forth all the facts.

 

[Disir]

Traditional, honest liberals such as those above really do welcome all voices, they really do want everyone to be heard, they really don't try to shut people up, and perhaps most importantly, they have an innate humility that says "I really don't have all the answers, let's hear your idea and see what happens if we talk about it".

They are truly CURIOUS.

You mean they sit down at the dinner table and talk to people because they are people first and not a party? You know, we aren't alien creatures that have never had anything to do with each other. We are the people at the stores, on the streets, neighbors, coworkers, etc. We solve problems all the time and we don't know what political party the other is. The only division is the one someone else plants in your head.

Yes, it's always someone else. I get that from both sides.
.

Is it? Are you telling me you have no interaction outside of your computer?

 

[Mac1958]

Traditional, honest liberals such as those above really do welcome all voices, they really do want everyone to be heard, they really don't try to shut people up, and perhaps most importantly, they have an innate humility that says "I really don't have all the answers, let's hear your idea and see what happens if we talk about it".

They are truly CURIOUS.

You mean they sit down at the dinner table and talk to people because they are people first and not a party? You know, we aren't alien creatures that have never had anything to do with each other. We are the people at the stores, on the streets, neighbors, coworkers, etc. We solve problems all the time and we don't know what political party the other is. The only division is the one someone else plants in your head.

Yes, it's always someone else. I get that from both sides.
.

Is it? Are you telling me you have no interaction outside of your computer?

I have no idea what that means.

If you have a point to make, make it. I've made mine.
.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Bigots who attack others who hold them accountable for their bigotry are regressives.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Traditional, honest liberals such as those above really do welcome all voices, they really do want everyone to be heard, they really don't try to shut people up, and perhaps most importantly, they have an innate humility that says "I really don't have all the answers, let's hear your idea and see what happens if we talk about it".

They are truly CURIOUS.

You mean they sit down at the dinner table and talk to people because they are people first and not a party? You know, we aren't alien creatures that have never had anything to do with each other. We are the people at the stores, on the streets, neighbors, coworkers, etc. We solve problems all the time and we don't know what political party the other is. The only division is the one someone else plants in your head.

Yes, it's always someone else. I get that from both sides.
.

Is it? Are you telling me you have no interaction outside of your computer?

I have no idea what that means.

If you have a point to make, make it. I've made mine.
.

I never would have predicted that you'd say something like that.

 

[Disir]

Traditional, honest liberals such as those above really do welcome all voices, they really do want everyone to be heard, they really don't try to shut people up, and perhaps most importantly, they have an innate humility that says "I really don't have all the answers, let's hear your idea and see what happens if we talk about it".

They are truly CURIOUS.

You mean they sit down at the dinner table and talk to people because they are people first and not a party? You know, we aren't alien creatures that have never had anything to do with each other. We are the people at the stores, on the streets, neighbors, coworkers, etc. We solve problems all the time and we don't know what political party the other is. The only division is the one someone else plants in your head.

Yes, it's always someone else. I get that from both sides.
.

Is it? Are you telling me you have no interaction outside of your computer?

I have no idea what that means.

If you have a point to make, make it. I've made mine.
.

I think you understand perfectly.

 

[NYcarbineer]

[

Traditional, honest liberals such as those above really do welcome all voices, they really do want everyone to be heard, they really don't try to shut people up, and perhaps most importantly, they have an innate humility that says "I really don't have all the answers, let's hear your idea and see what happens if we talk about it".

Ironically that in no way describes you.

 

[Mac1958]

Traditional, honest liberals such as those above really do welcome all voices, they really do want everyone to be heard, they really don't try to shut people up, and perhaps most importantly, they have an innate humility that says "I really don't have all the answers, let's hear your idea and see what happens if we talk about it".

They are truly CURIOUS.

You mean they sit down at the dinner table and talk to people because they are people first and not a party? You know, we aren't alien creatures that have never had anything to do with each other. We are the people at the stores, on the streets, neighbors, coworkers, etc. We solve problems all the time and we don't know what political party the other is. The only division is the one someone else plants in your head.

Yes, it's always someone else. I get that from both sides.
.

Is it? Are you telling me you have no interaction outside of your computer?

I have no idea what that means.

If you have a point to make, make it. I've made mine.
.

I think you understand perfectly.

Okay, your call.

I'll agree with the following liberals, you think as you wish.

• Obama on Political Correctness: ‘A Recipe for Dogmatism’
• Obama hits 'coddled' liberal college students
• http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/08/opinion/sunday/a-confession-of-liberal-intolerance.html
• Liberals and the Illiberal Left
  
• Can We Start Taking Political Correctness Seriously Now?
  
• The political correctness cops are going to ruin the progressive cause
• Tina Fey Calls Out The Oscars for Political Correctness, Liberal 'Hollywood Bull***t'
  
• Bill Maher Rails Against Crazy Political Correctness From Liberals Tells Media Matters to Shut The F ck Up Video RealClearPolitics
  
• Jerry Seinfeld says political correctness is hurting comedy - CBS News
  
• Don Lemon weighs in on PC culture Liberals are the most easily offended and the least tolerant - Salon.com
  
• Not a Very P.C. Thing to Say -- NYMag
  
• Liberal Turley against political correctness in News Forum
• Political correctness is the enemy of art
  
• Are Liberals Becoming Too Sensitive and Politically Correct
  
• Jim Webb says Democratic Party has lost its way - The Washington Post
  
• John Stuart Mill s Argument Against Political...
  
• Dem Blames Political Correctness for Fort Hood Workplace Violence Controversy - ABC News
  
• Is the New Political Correctness Already Dying -- NYMag
  
• I don t know what to do you guys Fredrik deBoer
  
• http://www.forwardprogressives.com/liberals-becoming-sensitive-politically-correct/
  
• http://www.vox.com/2015/6/3/8706323/college-professor-afraid
  
• http://www.socialmemorycomplex.net/leftlibertarian/2012/06/12/a-leftist-critique-of-political-correctness/
  
• College Students Say Remembering 9/11 Is Offensive to Muslims
  
• How Diversity Police Halt Progress
  
• My view: Political correctness should not inhibit free speech
  
• http://scienceblogs.com/webeasties/2013/05/21/science-racism-and-political-correctness/
  
• http://www.hawkeyelounge.com/threads/liberal-columnist-leonard-pitts-asks-if-weve-overdone-political-correctness.130665/
  
• #CancelColbert and the Return of the Anti-Liberal Left
• I'm a progressive student who's scared my peers have gone off the deep end in killing free speech - The College Fix
• REED: When liberals become illiberal
  
• PC Police Out Of Control In Possibly The Most Absurd Story I've Ever Come Across
  
• “Political Correctness” | The Progressive Professor
  
• How Liberals Ruined College
  
• Rushdie warns of new dangers to free speech in West
  
• Liberals Should Be Deeply Disturbed By Political Correctness Craze Sweeping College Campuses
• Sam Harris Unloads on the Regressive Left | www.splicetoday.com
• Free Speech & the Modern Campus

 

[Mac1958]

Traditional, honest liberals such as those above really do welcome all voices, they really do want everyone to be heard, they really don't try to shut people up, and perhaps most importantly, they have an innate humility that says "I really don't have all the answers, let's hear your idea and see what happens if we talk about it".

Ironically that in no way describes you.

If I were dealing with a normal person, I would invite you to bring up five or ten of the biggest issues we face and I'd provide examples of how my opinions and solutions are quite independent and often draw from both "ends" of the issue.

But I'm not. Believe as you will. You're an obedient Regressive Leftist, that's how you roll.
.

 

[NYcarbineer]

...liberals are advocates of inclusion and practice tolerance...

You see stuff like this, you shake your head, and you realize there is nothing you can say.
.

Are you claiming liberals are less tolerant of gays than conservatives? ...for example?

 

[Mac1958]

...liberals are advocates of inclusion and practice tolerance...

You see stuff like this, you shake your head, and you realize there is nothing you can say.
.

Are you claiming liberals are less tolerant of gays than conservatives? ...for example?

I've made my point. Over and over and over. It's not important to me that you either agree or understand.

But the reactions to my posts by the Regressive Leftists here are always a good sign.
.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Why be tolerant of something you think is wrong?