Do Works Really Count?

[frigidweirdo]

Why would you say that if only that person and God can decide?

Cause actions tend to reflect the attitude of a person.

So? A Christian is only someone who follows the Bible 100%? Or what percent of the Bible would you have to follow for Potterhead to label someone "a Christian"?

Confess your sins to Christ, ask for his forgiveness, and be baptized in water. Obey the Ten Commandments. It's not that complicated. God knows your heart. Talk to him.

How do you confess your sins to Christ?

Being baptized is easy, even I was baptized and I'm no Christian.

Obey the ten commandments? Ignore the rest of the book?

 

[Clyde 154]

Grailhunter had this really interesting theory and I was wondering if he could publicly share it. I say that works are important but they don't save you otherwise Christ's death upon the cross would be rather pointless. However, if somebody is a Christian but all they do is lie, steal, and cheat that's questionable. Yet, I don't think that they are actually a Christian though. I think they just claim to be so they can feel like they can do whatever they want and get away with it,.. but that's just my own personal opinion.

It takes both faith and works, they do not oppose one another they complement each other. One void of the other is DEAD.

James asks the question? "What does it prophet, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?" -- James 2:14

The inspired writer answers his own question in short order. James first demonstrates that faith alone is a dead faith (James 2:14-20. He concludes that it does no good to wish a needy person well unless we ACT and do something to relieve those needs (15-17). Next he declares it takes more than belief, Even Demons believe but yet are still condemned by their actions (19). Thus faith without works is DEAD FAITH. (20).

He uses 2 examples from the Old Testament as a teaching moment to prove his point. He points to the example of Abraham (21-25) Abraham was a Hebrew, a godly man, a child of God and the friend of God. He was justified by faith (a belief) verse (23) when he quoted from Genesis 15:6, but points out that his faith had to be justified through works (acts) of obedience to God. The greatest act of faith being his willingness to offer up his son Isaac upon an alter. (Genesis 21:1-18).

James makes a declaration, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead." (James 2:26).

The very subject that James is discussing is SALVATION. (James 2:21) He referenced from Genesis 22:3, 5, and 12.

 

[whoisit]

Potterhead2021 your a woman?

 

[Road Runner]

Potterhead2021 your a woman?

Yes.

 

[whoisit]

Potterhead2021

Thats good. So am I.

 

[Road Runner]

Potterhead2021

Thats good. So am I.

Seriously? I didn't know that lol sorry if I referenced you as he before.

 

[whoisit]

Potterhead2021

No worry. I thought you were a male also.

 

[ding]

So? A Christian is only someone who follows the Bible 100%? Or what percent of the Bible would you have to follow for Potterhead to label someone "a Christian"?

I wouldn't know for sure, I would only go by what they were showing me with their actions.

Doesn't really matter, does it? Seeing how it's God and themselves that decide if they're Christians or not.

Christianity is the most violent religion out there. Maybe being violent and then going to church and being told they've been forgiven if part of being a Christian.

You are kidding, right?

 

[onefour1]

Without the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ nobody will be saved. However, with the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, Jesus then gets to decide who will go to heaven and who won't in the judgment.

Matthew 7:21-22​

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 19:17​

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

John 5:22-23​

22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Revelation 20:12-13​

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

[ninja007]

works dont save you, but they prove to the outside world you ARE saved.

 

[Nuthin' Fancy]

works dont save you, but they prove to the outside world you ARE saved.

Really?
If it isn't "works"?
So it must be when a preacher say's you are "saved" you're saved?
OR does god tell you?

 

[onefour1]

Jesus ultimately saves but he does have his requirements before saving you into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[SweetSue92]

Grailhunter had this really interesting theory and I was wondering if he could publicly share it. I say that works are important but they don't save you otherwise Christ's death upon the cross would be rather pointless. However, if somebody is a Christian but all they do is lie, steal, and cheat that's questionable. Yet, I don't think that they are actually a Christian though. I think they just claim to be so they can feel like they can do whatever they want and get away with it,.. but that's just my own personal opinion.

We cannot save ourselves. The Bible calls all of our works "filthy rags" compared to the glory of Christ--and they are. God needs nothing and there is nothing we can do to "earn" our salvation. So you are right there.

However.

When we are saved, good works are a natural outgrowth of the Holy Spirit in our lives. The fruits of the Spirit should manifest to some degree: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, self control, gentleness and faithfulness.

When in the book of James, he says, "faith without works is dead", he most likely means if you see someone who professes faith but has no indication of it in their life, that is probably not a true confession they're making. BTW, I do not mean that person does not sin. I mean does that person show evidence of a growing relationship with Jesus, which includes good works.

 

[SweetSue92]

Jesus ultimately saves but he does have his requirements before saving you into the kingdom of heaven.

Was His salvation then insufficient?

 

[justinacolmena]

I say that works are important but they don't save you

Sure you go to work earn a living just like everyone else, but one day, you're laid off, fired, evicted, served with divorce papers after they blackmailed you.

What's that defense attorney going to plead you down to now, after you gave up all your rights in a collective bargaining agreement?

 

[onefour1]

Jesus ultimately saves but he does have his requirements before saving you into the kingdom of heaven.

Was His salvation then insufficient?

The Bible teaches that not everyone will enter into the kingdom of heaven. Why? Because you have to be righteous to live in the kingdom of heaven. Jesus' atonement was plenty sufficient to save all mankind from death and all will be resurrected. It was also sufficient to save all mankind into the kingdom of heaven based upon the principle of repentance.

Matthew 4:17​

17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Jesus was clear on the doctrine of repentance that if we don't repent we will all likewise perish:

Luke 13:1-5
1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilæans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilæans were sinners above all the Galilæans, because they suffered such things?

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Repentance is one of the first principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ. If we don't repent, Jesus tells us that we shall all perish. Jesus is not just a merciful God, but a just God as well. He cannot allow the unrepentant sinner into the kingdom of heaven. For this reason he taught us to repent in order to obtain the kingdom of heaven. Only the just will find their way to the kingdom of heaven. Those who are wicked will not. What does it mean to repent? It means to stop sinning and keep the commandments of God. It is true that no matter how much we repent and keep the commandments of God, without the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ those actions will avail us nothing. But that doesn't mean that we inherit the kingdom of heaven without doing anything.

Jesus requires us to repent before he will grant the mercy to allow us into the kingdom of heaven. Do you suppose that the wicked will inherit the kingdom of heaven? No! They won't because they are unwilling to repent and come unto Jesus so that he can save them. Does this make Jesus' atoning sacrifice insufficient? It has always been insufficient to save the wicked and godless into the kingdom of heaven. Why? Because God is a just God and can only allow those who repent and change their life into a good being. Only the just will inherit the kingdom of heaven. Without the atoning sacrifice of Jesus, no man would rise from the grave. All mankind will rise and be resurrected because of Jesus. However, not all will enter the kingdom of heaven because they are required to repent and change from being evil to being a good being.

Through repentance, the atonement of Jesus Christ can save us into his kingdom. Otherwise we need to be placed elsewhere. Repentance and good works in and of themselves cannot save us. We need the atoning blood of Jesus to be saved. However, Jesus cannot save the wicked into his kingdom unless they repent. Heaven would not be heaven with the unrepentant wicked doing what they do there. For this reason, those who do not repent will be sent elsewhere and will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. It would be unjust for Jesus too allow the wicked into heaven. For this reason, repentance is a requirement of Jesus before he will allow us into his kingdom.

Jesus does not save all into the kingdom of heaven. The difference is whether they repent and follow after him. I don't believe that a person is first saved into the kingdom of heaven before repenting. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that. Repentance comes before one is saved into His kingdom. And that is what we will be judged upon before it is determined if we are allowed into the kingdom or not.

 

[Michael1985]

Grailhunter had this really interesting theory and I was wondering if he could publicly share it. I say that works are important but they don't save you otherwise Christ's death upon the cross would be rather pointless. However, if somebody is a Christian but all they do is lie, steal, and cheat that's questionable. Yet, I don't think that they are actually a Christian though. I think they just claim to be so they can feel like they can do whatever they want and get away with it,.. but that's just my own personal opinion.

I guess we need to define what is meant by "works" first.

 

[Blues Man]

Grailhunter had this really interesting theory and I was wondering if he could publicly share it. I say that works are important but they don't save you otherwise Christ's death upon the cross would be rather pointless. However, if somebody is a Christian but all they do is lie, steal, and cheat that's questionable. Yet, I don't think that they are actually a Christian though. I think they just claim to be so they can feel like they can do whatever they want and get away with it,.. but that's just my own personal opinion.

I'm one who thinks that the only thing that matters is how we comport ourselves in the short time we are alive.

You raise what I find to be an interesting question.

If a person lives a life of compassion and empathy for his fellow humans by his own choice but he never acknowledges any gods then why is that man considered to be less worthy than a person who lives a life that is far less kind and compassionate but is devout considered by the religious as living a better life?

 

[Meriweather]

If a person lives a life of compassion and empathy for his fellow humans by his own choice but he never acknowledges any gods then why is that man considered to be less worthy than a person who lives a life that is far less kind and compassionate but is devout considered by the religious as living a better life?

This calls to mind the parable of the good Pharisee and the despised tax collector. One side is good, while the other side, not so good. The lesson, "God be merciful, for I am a sinner."

Your question would be more apt if both people were presented as living lives of compassion and empathy for his fellow humans. Then the more thoughtful question is "Should either man should be considered less worthy, and if so, why?"

 

[Blues Man]

If a person lives a life of compassion and empathy for his fellow humans by his own choice but he never acknowledges any gods then why is that man considered to be less worthy than a person who lives a life that is far less kind and compassionate but is devout considered by the religious as living a better life?

This calls to mind the parable of the good Pharisee and the despised tax collector. One side is good, while the other side, not so good. The lesson, "God be merciful, for I am a sinner."

Your question would be more apt if both people were presented as living lives of compassion and empathy for his fellow humans. Then the more thoughtful question is "Should either man should be considered less worthy, and if so, why?"

The point was the better person who doesn't worship gods is often deemed as living a less worthy life than the person who does not live as good a life as the nonbeliever and is often deemed to have lived a better life because he worships a god.