Do you believe the war on drugs is a failure?

[Huey]

yes and thats all I have to say.

 

[editec]

I'm not nearly knowledgeable enough in medicine to claim an opinion of any of the medical studies, but I will say the idea of marijuana rehab seems ridiculous. I've heard a lot of speculation, but considering how heavily I've used it at times in the past alongside the fact that I've quit, many times, for months at a time, and never experienced any physical cravings or anything that could be called a withdrawal symptom, it's hard for me to buy into there being any significant chemical addiction. There definitely seems to be a well recognized pattern of moodiness when someone first quits marijuana, but that can hardly be definitively called a chemical withdrawal. Quitting something that you enjoy on a regular basis is obviously going to have some degree of an adverse emotional response. For those prone to non chemical addiction, this moodiness can be pretty severe. The same could be said, however, for someone addicted to sex having to go celibate for an extended period, but it can hardly be said that a guy on a cold streak is going through vagina withdrawals. Actually, you could say it, and I would have a pretty good laugh with you. It wouldn't be factual, though.

So, for my money, marijuana rehab would be comparable to sunflower seed rehab, or rehab for playing The Sims. Many of us here on the board would benefit, I'm sure, from Politicoholics Anonymous.

Spot on, Not.

 

[sparky]

The war on drugs again?

wake me up when they confront the #1 moridity / mortality oerp

pharmacuticals.....


~S~

 

[editec]

The war on drugs again?

wake me up when they confront the #1 moridity / mortality oerp

pharmacuticals.....


~S~

If we wait that long you'll be in the running to become Vermont's very own RIP VAN WINKLE.

 

[whitehall]

You gotta wonder if the American left is bi-polar or just stupid. They keep supporting laws that take away the freedom to smoke a (legal) cigarette and on the other hand they want to make a buck by selling drugs to kids.

 

[Katzndogz]

You gotta wonder if the American left is bi-polar or just stupid. They keep supporting laws that take away the freedom to smoke a (legal) cigarette and on the other hand they want to make a buck by selling drugs to kids.

Tobacco doesn't interfere with cognitive ability. Marijuana does. Despite how government puts up this false front of battling drugs, behind it all is that the government would find a drugged society much more compliant than one with their wits about them. It is to the government's interest to shift tobacco smokers to marijuana. The government not only has its war against tobacco, but against e-cigarettes, gum and the patch. Marijuana is still okay.

 

[MikeK]

You gotta wonder if the American left is bi-polar or just stupid. They keep supporting laws that take away the freedom to smoke a (legal) cigarette and on the other hand they want to make a buck by selling drugs to kids.

Support for laws that reduce cigarette smoking address an insidious addiction which is directly and undeniably responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths and millions of degenerate illnesses each year. And the effort to end marijuana prohibition, which is wholly counterproductive and unnecessary, does in no way encourage use by or sale to minors.

So what you've said here is false and misleading.

 

[Katzndogz]

Drugs never hurt or killed anyone. No matter what kind of drug. They are all safe to take in unlimited quantities.

 

[Katzndogz]

You gotta wonder if the American left is bi-polar or just stupid. They keep supporting laws that take away the freedom to smoke a (legal) cigarette and on the other hand they want to make a buck by selling drugs to kids.

Support for laws that reduce cigarette smoking address an insidious addiction which is directly and undeniably responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths and millions of degenerate illnesses each year. And the effort to end marijuana prohibition, which is wholly counterproductive and unnecessary, does in no way encourage use by or sale to minors.

So what you've said here is false and misleading.

You can't get high from smoking marijuana?

And here I thought that's why people did it.

I think that there should be no laws against drug use of ANY KIND. The public should be allowed any and all means to protect themselves against drug users. But the users themselves should have unlimited access.

 

[sparky]

The public should be allowed any and all means to protect themselves against drug users

oh gawd.....

do you realize there are trace amounts of pshycotropics in our major water supplies

i mean, seems we're a happy enough culture not to have any worries....

~S~

 

[MikeK]

Tobacco doesn't interfere with cognitive ability. Marijuana does.

That is a true but (perhaps unintentionally) deceptive statement.

Tobacco doesn't interfere with cognitive ability -- but it is extremely carcinogenic. It is more addictive than heroin, it kills hundreds of thousands of Americans annually and causes millions more serious illnesses. Marijuana does none of that. There is in fact not a single empirically documented example anywhere in the annals of medical science of marijuana causing death or serious illness. Not one.

Marijuana does affect one's cognitive abilities. But when used responsibly and properly the effect is temporary (in adults) and is no more relevant than is enjoying the effect of a martini or two or a few beers during an appropriate leisure period. Temporary reduction of normal cognitive ability is corollary to recreational relaxation and should not be presumed as negative or undesirable.

The reason for the parenthetic reference to adults above is the effect of marijuana, or alcohol, or any number of psychoactive pharmaceuticals, on the undeveloped brain, as in adolescence, is believed to have a lasting debilitative effect on short-term memory -- which is critical to learning. This short-term memory effect has been observed in adults who use marijuana excessively but the degree of effect is relatively minor compared with that in adolescents.

Despite how government puts up this false front of battling drugs, behind it all is that the government would find a drugged society much more compliant than one with their wits about them. It is to the government's interest to shift tobacco smokers to marijuana. The government not only has its war against tobacco, but against e-cigarettes, gum and the patch. Marijuana is still okay.

That rather Orwellian theorizing presumes the vast majority of Americans would subject themselves to excessive drug use if all drugs were legally available. In the way of a quick response to such an ill-advised notion I will ask if recreational drugs were made legally available today would you rush right out and become a stoner or a junkie? And if your answer is no, then why do you suppose most other people would? Are you that much wiser than most others -- or has drug war propaganda affected you more than you might believe it has?

 

[sparky]

Despite how government puts up this false front of battling drugs, behind it all is that the government would find a drugged society much more compliant than one with their wits about them. It is to the government's interest to shift tobacco smokers to marijuana. The government not only has its war against tobacco, but against e-cigarettes, gum and the patch. Marijuana is still okay.

That rather Orwellian theorizing presumes the vast majority of Americans would subject themselves to excessive drug use if all drugs were legally available. In the way of a quick response to such an ill-advised notion I will ask if recreational drugs were made legally available today would you rush right out and become a stoner or a junkie? And if your answer is no, then why do you suppose most other people would? Are you that much wiser than most others -- or has drug war propaganda affected you more than you might believe it has?

aw c'mon Mike...

your well aware that i (et all) could get a script for having a bad hair day here

heck, you keep havin' them, and your in front of a shrink, social services, and it's drool in front of the tv time if one wants to.....

~S~

 

[Katzndogz]

Tobacco doesn't interfere with cognitive ability. Marijuana does.

That is a true but (perhaps unintentionally) deceptive statement.

Tobacco doesn't interfere with cognitive ability -- but it is extremely carcinogenic. It is more addictive than heroin, it kills hundreds of thousands of Americans annually and causes millions more serious illnesses. Marijuana does none of that. There is in fact not a single empirically documented example anywhere in the annals of medical science of marijuana causing death or serious illness. Not one.

Marijuana does affect one's cognitive abilities. But when used responsibly and properly the effect is temporary (in adults) and is no more relevant than is enjoying the effect of a martini or two or a few beers during an appropriate leisure period. Temporary reduction of normal cognitive ability is corollary to recreational relaxation and should not be presumed as negative or undesirable.

The reason for the parenthetic reference to adults above is the effect of marijuana, or alcohol, or any number of psychoactive pharmaceuticals, on the undeveloped brain, as in adolescence, is believed to have a lasting debilitative effect on short-term memory -- which is critical to learning. This short-term memory effect has been observed in adults who use marijuana excessively but the degree of effect is relatively minor compared with that in adolescents.

Despite how government puts up this false front of battling drugs, behind it all is that the government would find a drugged society much more compliant than one with their wits about them. It is to the government's interest to shift tobacco smokers to marijuana. The government not only has its war against tobacco, but against e-cigarettes, gum and the patch. Marijuana is still okay.

That rather Orwellian theorizing presumes the vast majority of Americans would subject themselves to excessive drug use if all drugs were legally available. In the way of a quick response to such an ill-advised notion I will ask if recreational drugs were made legally available today would you rush right out and become a stoner or a junkie? And if your answer is no, then why do you suppose most other people would? Are you that much wiser than most others -- or has drug war propaganda affected you more than you might believe it has?

Oh heavens no. Certainly not all Americans would use drugs if they were available! There are the ones that will and the ones that won't. Of the ones that will, they should be afforded all the drugs they want. Drug users tend to die young. That means that drug use if left alone, is self-limiting. Sending people to endless and fruitless rehab is a waste of money, time and effort. It serves only to make people who run the rehab centers wealthy. Let the drug users - use!

As my Chinese friends tell me, they are for full drug legalization "for you, not for us". That myself, and many other Americans might adopt that philosophy would do us well. The public needs to be protected, because of the nature of drug use, that means self-defense. So those laws need to be addressed and strengthened.

You might look at the connection between marijuana use and stroke, but that's up to you. I certainly don't care of potheads have strokes. It's none of my business. Best if they do anyway.

 

[Katzndogz]

The discussion is has the drug war failed?

Yes it has.

Deal with it by recognizing what other methods we can rid ourselves of druggies. One thing is let them.

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

You gotta wonder if the American left is bi-polar or just stupid. They keep supporting laws that take away the freedom to smoke a (legal) cigarette and on the other hand they want to make a buck by selling drugs to kids.

I sort of dig this statement because it illustrates how this issue points out how inconsistent -both- political camps are in their freedom-loving rhetoric. The fact of the matter is that both Democrats and Republicans are all for limiting individual freedoms, even in a manner that is in direct conflict with the Bill of Rights, so long as it suits their ideals of security and/or morality.

The end is pretty disingenuous, though. I'm guessing that as a right winger, Whitehall, you support the right to keep and bear arms? Does that mean you want to sell guns to kids?

People in the current political environment have a bad habit of assuming that everyone who's opposed to their thinking is ill intention'ed.

 

[dblack]

The 'dirty little secret' of recreational drug use, that most of us know from experience even if we don't like to talk about it, is that most people who use drugs don't become addicted. We don't like to talk about it because addiction is a bitch and no one wants to encourage others, especially our children, to take the risk - even if it's a much smaller risk than the hysterical anti-drug people claim.

But ultimately the ridiculous, exaggerated claims are counter-productive as warnings against use. Kids see people using daily and not turning into psychotic idiots. They see valedictorians lighting up and acing their SATs, they see people using drugs casually and not ruining their lives and it causes them to doubt all the warnings they've heard since grade school - which is really unfortunate because many of those warnings were legit.

The 'reefer madness' gripping people who claim that drug users will all become crazed addicts and die young would be proven a farce if drugs were legalized. The 'drug problem' is largely one we've created - by making drug use illegal.

 

[MikeK]

Oh heavens no. Certainly not all Americans would use drugs if they were available! There are the ones that will and the ones that won't. Of the ones that will, they should be afforded all the drugs they want. Drug users tend to die young. That means that drug use if left alone, is self-limiting. Sending people to endless and fruitless rehab is a waste of money, time and effort. It serves only to make people who run the rehab centers wealthy. Let the drug users - use!

I think you would be very surprised at just how many of your fellow Americans use recreational drugs, most typically marijuana. But you should understand the importance of being more specific about which drugs you are talking about and the critical difference between drug use and drug abuse. Because there are major differences at play here.

If you have a serious interest in this topic and you would care to be better informed about it I recommend the following book to you; Marijuana, The Forbidden Medicine, by Dr. Lester Grinspoon, MD, Ph.D., Professor Emeritus of Psychiatric Medicine, Harvard University Medical School. (Available from Amazon.)

In contrast with your theory of natural selection via unconstrained access to recreational drugs, Dr. Grinspoon advances the argument that while stress is known to be the leading cause of early death in America, moreso than any other single factor, the judicious use of certain recreational drugs, mainly marijuana, can significantly reduce the destructive effect of stress, thereby prolonging life. So unless you believe your opinion to be more authoritative than Dr. Grinspoon's it seems your theory is seriously flawed.

As my Chinese friends tell me, they are for full drug legalization "for you, not for us". That myself, and many other Americans might adopt that philosophy would do us well. The public needs to be protected, because of the nature of drug use, that means self-defense. So those laws need to be addressed and strengthened.

Your Chinese friends undoubtedly have been conditioned to think about recreational drug use in the context of smoking raw opium as a national pastime. So it follows that their impressions where the topic of drugs is concerned have been negatively influenced.

You might look at the connection between marijuana use and stroke, but that's up to you. I certainly don't care of potheads have strokes. It's none of my business. Best if they do anyway.

I believe that notion was addressed in response p.3, above. The educated consensus is marijuana use logically reduces the potential for having a stroke. But my guess is you don't want to believe that.

Right?

 

[Bfgrn]

The 'dirty little secret' of recreational drug use, that most of us know from experience even if we don't like to talk about it, is that most people who use drugs don't become addicted. We don't like to talk about it because addiction is a bitch and no one wants to encourage others, especially our children, to take the risk - even if it's a much smaller risk than the hysterical anti-drug people claim.

But ultimately the ridiculous, exaggerated claims are counter-productive as warnings against use. Kids see people using daily and not turning into psychotic idiots. They see valedictorians lighting up and acing their SATs, they see people using drugs casually and not ruining their lives and it causes them to doubt all the warnings they've heard since grade school - which is really unfortunate because many of those warnings were legit.

The 'reefer madness' gripping people who claim that drug users will all become crazed addicts and die young would be proven a farce if drugs were legalized. The 'drug problem' is largely one we've created - by making drug use illegal.

What you're dealing with is fear, particularly with conservatives. Because conservatism IS fear driven emotion applied to politics and government.

Right wingers like Katzndogz want drug users to die, because they really fear the drug user will attack them. It helps explain why conservatives are so big on 2nd amendment rights.

How could Katzndogz possibly defend himself from crazed reefer madness monsters without a bazooka?

While the moron gets plowed into by a drunk judges kid doing 70 in a 30...


Liberalism is trust of the people, tempered by prudence; conservatism, distrust of people, tempered by fear.
William E. Gladstone

 

[editec]

You gotta wonder if the American left is bi-polar or just stupid. They keep supporting laws that take away the freedom to smoke a (legal) cigarette and on the other hand they want to make a buck by selling drugs to kids.

Only people like you have to wonder. Lad

People who actually know something about the majority of Americans (people who aren't right wing cranks, like you) aren't at all confused.

 

[Katzndogz]

Oh heavens no. Certainly not all Americans would use drugs if they were available! There are the ones that will and the ones that won't. Of the ones that will, they should be afforded all the drugs they want. Drug users tend to die young. That means that drug use if left alone, is self-limiting. Sending people to endless and fruitless rehab is a waste of money, time and effort. It serves only to make people who run the rehab centers wealthy. Let the drug users - use!

I think you would be very surprised at just how many of your fellow Americans use recreational drugs, most typically marijuana. But you should understand the importance of being more specific about which drugs you are talking about and the critical difference between drug use and drug abuse. Because there are major differences at play here.

If you have a serious interest in this topic and you would care to be better informed about it I recommend the following book to you; Marijuana, The Forbidden Medicine, by Dr. Lester Grinspoon, MD, Ph.D., Professor Emeritus of Psychiatric Medicine, Harvard University Medical School. (Available from Amazon.)

In contrast with your theory of natural selection via unconstrained access to recreational drugs, Dr. Grinspoon advances the argument that while stress is known to be the leading cause of early death in America, moreso than any other single factor, the judicious use of certain recreational drugs, mainly marijuana, can significantly reduce the destructive effect of stress, thereby prolonging life. So unless you believe your opinion to be more authoritative than Dr. Grinspoon's it seems your theory is seriously flawed.

As my Chinese friends tell me, they are for full drug legalization "for you, not for us". That myself, and many other Americans might adopt that philosophy would do us well. The public needs to be protected, because of the nature of drug use, that means self-defense. So those laws need to be addressed and strengthened.

Your Chinese friends undoubtedly have been conditioned to think about recreational drug use in the context of smoking raw opium as a national pastime. So it follows that their impressions where the topic of drugs is concerned have been negatively influenced.

You might look at the connection between marijuana use and stroke, but that's up to you. I certainly don't care of potheads have strokes. It's none of my business. Best if they do anyway.

I believe that notion was addressed in response p.3, above. The educated consensus is marijuana use logically reduces the potential for having a stroke. But my guess is you don't want to believe that.

Right?

It's a shame that pro pot propaganda is so strong. You can choose to believe that marijuana use reduces the liklihood of stroke and I'm glad that you do, despite medical evidence to the contrary. Everyone who wants pot should be able to have as much as they want legally.

I was ALL drugs to be legalized and unrestricted. If you limit yourself to just pot, you are being a hypocrite. Why should you just indulge your own desires and leave the others? Legalize it all. Just allow the public to protect themselves with an unrestricted right of self defense.

As far as my fellow Americans go.... Now why would I be interested in what they are doing? Especially if "my fellow Americans" don't share my interests or values. It's a big and very multicultural nation. I am free to pick and choose from among this human banquet who my "fellows" really are. Less and less every day do I find them being Americans. In fact, I'm moving more and more towards the opinion of Americans held by the foreigners I deal with every day. Americans are nothing more than lazy drug addicts who go around with their hands out demanding baksheesh on the street corners and throwing a tantrum when they don't get it. I have come to agree with my Chinese friends "we believe in legalizing drugs, for you, not for us".

Legalize drugs. Americans will either crawl out of their drug induced torpor or they won't. If they don't, they will die, quite young. At least those won't be demanding baksheesh on the street corners.