Fair Tax vs. Flat Tax: Why Income Taxes destroys US jobs

[kaz]

This topic has come up in discussions, so I decided to start a threat to explain it. It's sad that government schools teach government, they don't teach capitalism. Capitalism is just a term for economic freedom.

Let’s say we have two employees, one is worth Three times as much as the other Joe is worth $10 an hour, Steve is worth $30. Worth is determined by the marketplace. If an employer pays them less than their value, they are unhappy, their work quality drops and they eventually leave for an employer who recognizes their value. Pay them more and they are happy, but their employer is unhappy because they are not getting their money’s worth. They push them more, raise the bar and if they can’t cut it they eventually replace them.

So now Obama comes along and says he isn’t going to tax Joe, he doesn’t make enough. But he is going to tax Steve 25% of his earnings. Steve is only taking home $22.50 an hour, but he’s worth three times as much as Joe who is taking home $10. So what happens?
.

According to fairtax.org, once the fairtax 'prebate' is applied, Steve's tax rate is zero (or less, depending on family size etc.),

and Joe's is 11.5%.

I think you're still reversing Joe and Steve. Joe is worth $10 an hour, Steve is worth $30.

I wasn't demonstrating the fair tax, I was demonstrating income tax.

 

[Freemason9]

Stupid right wingers.

Progressive tax policy has never, EVER discouraged me from seeking and accepting a higher wage.

You know what? The "Flat Tax" people are only looking for a way to continue Reagan's policy of pushing taxation downward toward lower income groups. They want to lower the top rates and raise the bottom ones. That's all it means.

 

[The Rabbi]

Stupid right wingers.

Progressive tax policy has never, EVER discouraged me from seeking and accepting a higher wage.

You know what? The "Flat Tax" people are only looking for a way to continue Reagan's policy of pushing taxation downward toward lower income groups. They want to lower the top rates and raise the bottom ones. That's all it means.

That's because you've only worked min wage jobs. Who cares about your experience?

Yes, we need to push taxation downward. Lower income people are getting a free ride, thus voting themselves more and more with fewer and fewer people paying for it. That has to stop.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

This topic has come up in discussions, so I decided to start a threat to explain it. It's sad that government schools teach government, they don't teach capitalism. Capitalism is just a term for economic freedom.

Let’s say we have two employees, one is worth Three times as much as the other Joe is worth $10 an hour, Steve is worth $30. Worth is determined by the marketplace. If an employer pays them less than their value, they are unhappy, their work quality drops and they eventually leave for an employer who recognizes their value. Pay them more and they are happy, but their employer is unhappy because they are not getting their money’s worth. They push them more, raise the bar and if they can’t cut it they eventually replace them.

So now Obama comes along and says he isn’t going to tax Joe, he doesn’t make enough. But he is going to tax Steve 25% of his earnings. Steve is only taking home $22.50 an hour, but he’s worth three times as much as Joe who is taking home $10. So what happens?
.

According to fairtax.org, once the fairtax 'prebate' is applied, Steve's tax rate is zero (or less, depending on family size etc.),

and Joe's is 11.5%.

I think you're still reversing Joe and Steve. Joe is worth $10 an hour, Steve is worth $30.

I wasn't demonstrating the fair tax, I was demonstrating income tax.

We know how income tax works.

 

[kaz]

According to fairtax.org, once the fairtax 'prebate' is applied, Steve's tax rate is zero (or less, depending on family size etc.),

and Joe's is 11.5%.

I think you're still reversing Joe and Steve. Joe is worth $10 an hour, Steve is worth $30.

I wasn't demonstrating the fair tax, I was demonstrating income tax.

We know how income tax works.

Do you? Prove it. I doubt you do.

 

[NYcarbineer]

This topic has come up in discussions, so I decided to start a threat to explain it. It's sad that government schools teach government, they don't teach capitalism. Capitalism is just a term for economic freedom.

Let’s say we have two employees, one is worth Three times as much as the other Joe is worth $10 an hour, Steve is worth $30. Worth is determined by the marketplace. If an employer pays them less than their value, they are unhappy, their work quality drops and they eventually leave for an employer who recognizes their value. Pay them more and they are happy, but their employer is unhappy because they are not getting their money’s worth. They push them more, raise the bar and if they can’t cut it they eventually replace them.

So now Obama comes along and says he isn’t going to tax Joe, he doesn’t make enough. But he is going to tax Steve 25% of his earnings. Steve is only taking home $22.50 an hour, but he’s worth three times as much as Joe who is taking home $10. So what happens?
.

According to fairtax.org, once the fairtax 'prebate' is applied, Steve's tax rate is zero (or less, depending on family size etc.),

and Joe's is 11.5%.

I think you're still reversing Joe and Steve. Joe is worth $10 an hour, Steve is worth $30.

I wasn't demonstrating the fair tax, I was demonstrating income tax.

Whatever. You support the fair tax. The fair tax is net negative to lower income families.

IOW, Some get more in so-called 'prebates' than they are expected to spend in taxes.

That's different from the current system how, exactly?

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

I think you're still reversing Joe and Steve. Joe is worth $10 an hour, Steve is worth $30.

I wasn't demonstrating the fair tax, I was demonstrating income tax.

We know how income tax works.

Do you? Prove it. I doubt you do.

I have nothing to prove to you. You're a moron.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Stupid right wingers.

Progressive tax policy has never, EVER discouraged me from seeking and accepting a higher wage.

You know what? The "Flat Tax" people are only looking for a way to continue Reagan's policy of pushing taxation downward toward lower income groups. They want to lower the top rates and raise the bottom ones. That's all it means.

Republican tax cuts are the biggest reason that the 47%, or at least those working, pay no taxes.

Republicans want tax cuts for the Rich, but they know that JUST cutting taxes for the Rich is politically impossible, so every time they've passed a big tax cut they've had to include everyone in it,

but since the low income people started from such a lower baseline of taxation in the first place, the Republicans cut many of their taxes to zero...

...now Republicans are in a fix because they can't figure out, politically speaking, how to cut taxes more for the Rich;

unless they agree to push even more than the 47% into the zero tax column.

 

[Freemason9]

Stupid right wingers.

Progressive tax policy has never, EVER discouraged me from seeking and accepting a higher wage.

You know what? The "Flat Tax" people are only looking for a way to continue Reagan's policy of pushing taxation downward toward lower income groups. They want to lower the top rates and raise the bottom ones. That's all it means.

That's because you've only worked min wage jobs. Who cares about your experience?

Yes, we need to push taxation downward. Lower income people are getting a free ride, thus voting themselves more and more with fewer and fewer people paying for it. That has to stop.

Do you think that "lower income people" were getting some kind of "free ride" in the post-WW II economic expansion? The greatest economic expansion in U.S. history?

Why is it that you find it's so important to maintain these huge wealth disparities in the modern U.S.? What's the matter with you, anyway?

 

[freedombecki]

A well-managed flat tax of 4% would force government to run better with fewer people. And it would give businesses an edge over foreign competitors. It would solve the dependency on Middle East Oil catastrophe.

 

[kaz]

We know how income tax works.

Do you? Prove it. I doubt you do.

I have nothing to prove to you. You're a moron.

You're the one who can't write a post that even demonstrates you grasp the discussion much less contributes to it. That's all your posts I've seen, not just the ones here. You just wallow away the day giving Obama blow jobs and believing the media and telling us how lawyers know everything and they can run our lives better than we can.

Whether or not I am a moron is completely beyond your grasp to say.

 

[kaz]

Why is it that you find it's so important to maintain these huge wealth disparities in the modern U.S.? What's the matter with you, anyway?

Yes comrade, the proletariat will rise and overthrow the bourgeoisie.

Right now, 47% of tax filers and well over 50% of people pay no Income taxes. According to the IRS, 1% of filers pay 40% of all taxes and 5% of filers pay 60% of all taxes.

There are two problems with what you are saying:

1) If you're not satisfied that overtaxing the evil rich is enough, then you're probably missing the soviet union more than most of us are.

2) People who don't pay income taxes don't feel any ownership of spending, which is why our spending and deficits are spiraling out of control.

 

[Freemason9]

Why is it that you find it's so important to maintain these huge wealth disparities in the modern U.S.? What's the matter with you, anyway?

Yes comrade, the proletariat will rise and overthrow the bourgeoisie.

Right now, 47% of tax filers and well over 50% of people pay no Income taxes. According to the IRS, 1% of filers pay 40% of all taxes and 5% of filers pay 60% of all taxes.

There are two problems with what you are saying:

1) If you're not satisfied that overtaxing the evil rich is enough, then you're probably missing the soviet union more than most of us are.

2) People who don't pay income taxes don't feel any ownership of spending, which is why our spending and deficits are spiraling out of control.

Fine, then, since you're so terrified of "redistribution:"

I'll go with the "Flat Tax" on income when you agree to a "Flat Tax" that applies to payroll taxes. And Social Security taxes. And a flat per-capita rate on sales taxes. And property taxes. And EVERY OTHER tax.

Why be selective?

You're a dumbshit.

 

[kaz]

I'll go with the "Flat Tax" on income when you agree to a "Flat Tax" that applies to payroll taxes. And Social Security taxes.

Um...do you know what "payroll taxes" are?

 

[zeke]

Why is it that you find it's so important to maintain these huge wealth disparities in the modern U.S.? What's the matter with you, anyway?

Yes comrade, the proletariat will rise and overthrow the bourgeoisie.

Right now, 47% of tax filers and well over 50% of people pay no Income taxes. According to the IRS, 1% of filers pay 40% of all taxes and 5% of filers pay 60% of all taxes.

There are two problems with what you are saying:

1) If you're not satisfied that overtaxing the evil rich is enough, then you're probably missing the soviet union more than most of us are.

2) People who don't pay income taxes don't feel any ownership of spending, which is why our spending and deficits are spiraling out of control.

Ya know that blaming working poor people (whether they qualify for the earned income tax credit or not) for the spending decisions in Congress makes you look.....what was it that Freemason said, makes you a dumbshit, yea that was the word, dumbshit.

He's right.


And I figure that you think that the ultra rich pay to high a percentage of the tax bill. So you want to cut their percentage? And who will you have pay the difference? Poor people and middle class people? And how will that help the economy? Just curious on that.

And I never hear anyone call the rich "evil" on here. But with 1% of the people paying 40% of the tax bill, do you have any idea how much wealth they control? You figure that they have the best lobbyists and accountants in the world to help them not pay taxes and they STILL pay 40%.

DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA OF HOW MUCH WEALTH THEY MUST CONTROL?
a LOT.

So why you worried about them?

You are either for plutocrats (who you seem to support) or populists. Why do you support plutocrats?

 

[kaz]

Why do you support plutocrats?

Nicely done, a strawman, begging the question and deflection in one five word sentence...

 

[The Rabbi]

Stupid right wingers.

Progressive tax policy has never, EVER discouraged me from seeking and accepting a higher wage.

You know what? The "Flat Tax" people are only looking for a way to continue Reagan's policy of pushing taxation downward toward lower income groups. They want to lower the top rates and raise the bottom ones. That's all it means.

That's because you've only worked min wage jobs. Who cares about your experience?

Yes, we need to push taxation downward. Lower income people are getting a free ride, thus voting themselves more and more with fewer and fewer people paying for it. That has to stop.

Do you think that "lower income people" were getting some kind of "free ride" in the post-WW II economic expansion? The greatest economic expansion in U.S. history?

Why is it that you find it's so important to maintain these huge wealth disparities in the modern U.S.? What's the matter with you, anyway?

Is that supposed to be a response?

 

[PrometheusBound]

This topic has come up in discussions, so I decided to start a threat to explain it. It's sad that government schools teach government, they don't teach capitalism. Capitalism is just a term for economic freedom.

Let’s say we have two employees, one is worth Three times as much as the other Joe is worth $10 an hour, Steve is worth $30. Worth is determined by the marketplace. If an employer pays them less than their value, they are unhappy, their work quality drops and they eventually leave .

I was a National Merit scholar. I was worth millions. Yet your plutocratic dictatorship that creates and absolutely controls your imaginary free marketplace expected me to sacrifice years of my life working without pay in college. I saw what a self-destructive choice that would be and refused to let anyone make money off my talent. It would have been a Negative Sum even for me to make any money for myself by sheepishly submitting to their unfunded mandate.

Business and society needed me more than I needed to be their house slave. Only people like me could have cured cancer, for one thing. So those who impose or support this system, which continues exploiting and humiliating talent even after fools with talent who go to college get a job from that, deserve to die from cancer. Without this insulting and one-sided system, we would have cured cancer 50 years ago. If High IQs weren't emasculated from childhood on, they would use their brains solely to confiscate the wealth that had been stolen from their predecessors. Whenever the unprivileged wake up, the plutocratic parasites will have to face being told, "Pay us or we will make you pay."

 

[kaz]

This topic has come up in discussions, so I decided to start a threat to explain it. It's sad that government schools teach government, they don't teach capitalism. Capitalism is just a term for economic freedom.

Let’s say we have two employees, one is worth Three times as much as the other Joe is worth $10 an hour, Steve is worth $30. Worth is determined by the marketplace. If an employer pays them less than their value, they are unhappy, their work quality drops and they eventually leave .

I was a National Merit scholar. I was worth millions. Yet your plutocratic dictatorship that creates and absolutely controls your imaginary free marketplace expected me to sacrifice years of my life working without pay in college. I saw what a self-destructive choice that would be and refused to let anyone make money off my talent. It would have been a Negative Sum even for me to make any money for myself by sheepishly submitting to their unfunded mandate.

Business and society needed me more than I needed to be their house slave. Only people like me could have cured cancer, for one thing. So those who impose or support this system, which continues exploiting and humiliating talent even after fools with talent who go to college get a job from that, deserve to die from cancer. Without this insulting and one-sided system, we would have cured cancer 50 years ago. If High IQs weren't emasculated from childhood on, they would use their brains solely to confiscate the wealth that had been stolen from their predecessors. Whenever the unprivileged wake up, the plutocratic parasites will have to face being told, "Pay us or we will make you pay."

Maybe if you grew a pair and stopped whining your life would stop sucking so much

 

[zeke]

Why do you support plutocrats?

Nicely done, a strawman, begging the question and deflection in one five word sentence...

You don't think a plutocracy exists in this country? Really? You don't think we have government of the rich, by the rich, for the rich?? When EVERY Congress person that goes to Washington NOT a millionaire, ends up becoming a multi millionaire?? When multi millioniares have CONgress people and Presidents on speed dial?? When a entire different justice system exists for the ultra rich?

What form of government have you been thinking we were living under? A form of populism? A Republic?
Hell since most of the voting districts through out the country have been gerrymandered, unless you live in a so called "swing state" your vote don't even mean shit anymore. They already know who is going to be elected by district now.

Corporations are people now. And who you think runs global corporations? Plutocrats do.

Nope, not a strawman at all. Why you support plutocrats?