Gun Control - What's the Problem?

[Rigby5]

You misunderstand.
Rights are inherent for what is right to humans.
If the country is invaded or criminals take over some other way, what is right remains right.
The fact you may no longer have government backing up your rights changes nothing as far as what is right and what rights you will fight for.
The fact you may be killed, does not alter what is right and what rights all humans should inherently have.
Having rights does not mean they necessarily can't be violated.
We have the right to life now in the US, but some one can still murder you.
That does not change your right to life.
You can tell because the murderer will be prosecuted if caught.
Governments or criminals can not change what is right or what rights are.

No, because the Constitution refers to the government violating your rights, not another individual.

A convicted felon cannot buy or be in possession of a firearm. The right to be in possession of a firearm is guaranteed in the Constitution. The people who took that right away from you was the government. Same thing with voting.

The right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is also guaranteed. But if you are arrested, imprisoned, and even sentenced to execution, all those rights are taken away from you by the government. If you are imprisoned, you lose the right to liberty by the government. If you are imprisoned, you are denied the right to happiness by the government. If you are imprisoned and executed for a capital crime, your right to life has been eliminated by the government.

And what got you there in the first place? You violated others right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

So where in the Constitution does it say if "I" violate somebody's rights, the government has the right to violate mine?

As I stated, rights were granted so that government could not violate them. As an individual, I have no mandate to do the same. The Constitution doesn't prohibit me from violating your rights, it prohibits the government from violating those rights.

In other words, government cannot stop me from free speech, but if I go to work and call my boss a MF, and tell him to go to hell, he can fire me because he's not bound by the Constitution of allowing free speech. Only the government is. So I can call my Congress person a MF, and tell him or her to go to hell with no repercussions, but I can't do the same with my employer.

So you say that you can go into a school, murder 40 school children, wouldn't a couple of hundred and you can't lose any of your "Rights" even though you terrorized the whole community and murdered and maimed many? We should just look at you and say, shame, shame and go on with our lives, or at least those of us still alive.

I don't understand what you're getting at.

I clearly stated that government does have the ability to remove rights from people. The Constitution does not guarantee rights if you choose to surrender them by violating law.

If I am a convicted felon, the government has the ability to not allow me to exercise my right of firearm ownership. I made that choice when I thtdecided to become a felon.

It is not that simple.
For example, convicted felons have been known to have used a firearm in defense, and been let off by appeals court.
That is because you can prevent a felon from having firearms only because you do not trust them.
That does not mean you can punish them for an action that can be clearly demonstrated to have been legal and necessary.
There is no right of firearm ownership exactly, but one of defense, of oneself, home, family, tribe, municipality, state, and country.
You do not have to decide to become a felon in order to be one. It can be obscure laws, mistaken identity, a frame up, etc.

 

[Rigby5]

I don't understand what you're getting at.

I clearly stated that government does have the ability to remove rights from people. The Constitution does not guarantee rights if you choose to surrender them by violating law.

If I am a convicted felon, the government has the ability to not allow me to exercise my right of firearm ownership. I made that choice when I decided to become a felon.

But it wasn't your choice. I know of a number of convicted felons on Parole that certainly don't have that choice. It's not the person that removes those "Rights", it's the Government. And guess why?

The government removes rights based on your actions. The felons you know did make that choice when they committed their crimes and got caught. Ask anyone of them if they knew they wouldn't be able to ever possess a firearm again, vote in most states, and have difficulty finding a decent paying job.

They knew all of these things before committing the crime, so they made that choice. Nobody forced them to rob a convenience store.

Yet you say that the Government can't take anyone's rights. You even said it applied to Felons. Your goal post must be Quantum powered. Now, who grants you those rights in the first place. And don't say it's God Given. If a person is an Athiest does that mean they have no rights?

My entire argument is that rights are given to us by the government. How could government take something away they didn't give you in the first place?

So now we are on the same page. God didn't give you the "Rights". The Government did. And Rights cannot be taken away, right? it works out this way, you call them rights but when a right affects others in a negative fashion, they become privileges. And Privileges can be taken away as long as it's done using Due Process.

Now, revisit the 2nd amendment.

We create government, not the other way around.
So it it an impossible contradiction to claim government creates rights or can legally take them away.
Those incarcerated still do have rights that can not legally be abused.
Government can restrict rights, but never take them away, and even restrictions have to be required in order to protect the rights of others.

The authority to restrict rights comes from the need to protect the rights of others, NOT from government.
Government is not the source of any authority at all.
That should be obvious, since WE create government.
Government is just a hired agent we delegate some of our authority to.

 

[dblack]

We create government, not the other way around.
So it it an impossible contradiction to claim government creates rights or can legally take them away.
Those incarcerated still do have rights that can not legally be abused.
Government can restrict rights, but never take them away, and even restrictions have to be required in order to protect the rights of others.

What usually gets lost in these discussions is that saying unalienable rights can't be taken away is an existential claim. It's not saying government isn't allowed to take them away, it's saying that government literally can't take them away. It's not a rule. It's merely an observation about the nature of unalienable rights. They are an inherent part of being a creature with free will. Government can violate, or as you say "restrict", our rights. But short of killing someone, it can't take away their rights. Their rights are simply part of being conscious.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

No, because the Constitution refers to the government violating your rights, not another individual.

A convicted felon cannot buy or be in possession of a firearm. The right to be in possession of a firearm is guaranteed in the Constitution. The people who took that right away from you was the government. Same thing with voting.

The right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is also guaranteed. But if you are arrested, imprisoned, and even sentenced to execution, all those rights are taken away from you by the government. If you are imprisoned, you lose the right to liberty by the government. If you are imprisoned, you are denied the right to happiness by the government. If you are imprisoned and executed for a capital crime, your right to life has been eliminated by the government.

And what got you there in the first place? You violated others right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

So where in the Constitution does it say if "I" violate somebody's rights, the government has the right to violate mine?

As I stated, rights were granted so that government could not violate them. As an individual, I have no mandate to do the same. The Constitution doesn't prohibit me from violating your rights, it prohibits the government from violating those rights.

In other words, government cannot stop me from free speech, but if I go to work and call my boss a MF, and tell him to go to hell, he can fire me because he's not bound by the Constitution of allowing free speech. Only the government is. So I can call my Congress person a MF, and tell him or her to go to hell with no repercussions, but I can't do the same with my employer.

So you say that you can go into a school, murder 40 school children, wouldn't a couple of hundred and you can't lose any of your "Rights" even though you terrorized the whole community and murdered and maimed many? We should just look at you and say, shame, shame and go on with our lives, or at least those of us still alive.

I don't understand what you're getting at.

I clearly stated that government does have the ability to remove rights from people. The Constitution does not guarantee rights if you choose to surrender them by violating law.

If I am a convicted felon, the government has the ability to not allow me to exercise my right of firearm ownership. I made that choice when I thtdecided to become a felon.

It is not that simple.
For example, convicted felons have been known to have used a firearm in defense, and been let off by appeals court.
That is because you can prevent a felon from having firearms only because you do not trust them.
That does not mean you can punish them for an action that can be clearly demonstrated to have been legal and necessary.
There is no right of firearm ownership exactly, but one of defense, of oneself, home, family, tribe, municipality, state, and country.
You do not have to decide to become a felon in order to be one. It can be obscure laws, mistaken identity, a frame up, etc.

It can be but seldom is. The point being made is that government does take away rights under certain conditions. You may not like it, may think it's unconstitutional, but it happens every day.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Technically traffic laws are voluntary contractual obligations when you accept the license. That is because driving itself, is not really a right.
But government has no authority of its own.
So government can only act in the defense of the rights of others.
That means that it can incarcerate you when you harm others, in order to protect others.
But once out, there no longer is a legal valid justification for harming the convicted felon.
Government does not have that authority, as it defends no one.
In fact, by denying the right to vote, government is committing the crime of taxation without representation,

Ironically we need 'license' to exercise our 2nd. Which is a right. And we have to involuntarily relinquish our 1st and 5th amendment rights in order to apply for license to require a gun.

Good grief. That's a 10th amendment violation itself. I don't recall that requirement to be a power of the federal government in the constitution either.

Wrong.

License and permit requirement have been upheld by the courts with regard to citizens exercising their First Amendment rights; the Second Amendment right is no different.

Licensing and permit requirements violate neither the First nor Fifth Amendment – the notion is utter nonsense.

And there’s nothing in the 10th Amendment that prohibits the Federal government from enacting firearm regulatory measures consistent with Second Amendment case law.

Ridiculous.
No right has ever required or allowed licensing or permits.
The only time permits of licensing has ever been upheld in courts are when it harms others, like taking over a street for a political parade.

The 10 amendment specifically says the federal government can ONLY legislate where it is specifically granted jurisdiction by an article in the constitution. There is no such article allowing the federal government any authority at all over any weapons at all.
None!
There is not a single federal firearms or drug law that is even remotely legal.

lol

It's not 'ridiculous,' it's a fact of law.

What's ridiculous is shooting the messenger.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

I don't understand what you're getting at.

I clearly stated that government does have the ability to remove rights from people. The Constitution does not guarantee rights if you choose to surrender them by violating law.

If I am a convicted felon, the government has the ability to not allow me to exercise my right of firearm ownership. I made that choice when I decided to become a felon.

But it wasn't your choice. I know of a number of convicted felons on Parole that certainly don't have that choice. It's not the person that removes those "Rights", it's the Government. And guess why?

The government removes rights based on your actions. The felons you know did make that choice when they committed their crimes and got caught. Ask anyone of them if they knew they wouldn't be able to ever possess a firearm again, vote in most states, and have difficulty finding a decent paying job.

They knew all of these things before committing the crime, so they made that choice. Nobody forced them to rob a convenience store.

Yet you say that the Government can't take anyone's rights. You even said it applied to Felons. Your goal post must be Quantum powered. Now, who grants you those rights in the first place. And don't say it's God Given. If a person is an Athiest does that mean they have no rights?

My entire argument is that rights are given to us by the government. How could government take something away they didn't give you in the first place?

So now we are on the same page. God didn't give you the "Rights". The Government did. And Rights cannot be taken away, right? it works out this way, you call them rights but when a right affects others in a negative fashion, they become privileges. And Privileges can be taken away as long as it's done using Due Process.

Now, revisit the 2nd amendment.

Rights don't become privileges. Rights are rights and privileges are privileges. They don't become anything than what they are.

Like I said, government does take away rights. They do it to us truck drivers every single day. Those rights don't apply to us because we did get a CDL and did pursue that line of work. In other words we surrendered specific rights when we entered that career.

Whether you want to use the words suspend, restricted, removed, it's all the same thing when you no longer have that right(s) for whatever reason.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

So you say that you can go into a school, murder 40 school children, wouldn't a couple of hundred and you can't lose any of your "Rights" even though you terrorized the whole community and murdered and maimed many? We should just look at you and say, shame, shame and go on with our lives, or at least those of us still alive.

I don't understand what you're getting at.

I clearly stated that government does have the ability to remove rights from people. The Constitution does not guarantee rights if you choose to surrender them by violating law.

If I am a convicted felon, the government has the ability to not allow me to exercise my right of firearm ownership. I made that choice when I decided to become a felon.

But it wasn't your choice. I know of a number of convicted felons on Parole that certainly don't have that choice. It's not the person that removes those "Rights", it's the Government. And guess why?

The government removes rights based on your actions. The felons you know did make that choice when they committed their crimes and got caught. Ask anyone of them if they knew they wouldn't be able to ever possess a firearm again, vote in most states, and have difficulty finding a decent paying job.

They knew all of these things before committing the crime, so they made that choice. Nobody forced them to rob a convenience store.

Yet you say that the Government can't take anyone's rights. You even said it applied to Felons. Your goal post must be Quantum powered. Now, who grants you those rights in the first place. And don't say it's God Given. If a person is an Athiest does that mean they have no rights?

I also don’t recall any right to bear arms in any scripture.

The people grant rights through the government.

Sorry, no.

Our rights are inalienable, they can be neither taken nor bestowed by any government, constitution, or man.

 

[Blues Man]

So you say that you can go into a school, murder 40 school children, wouldn't a couple of hundred and you can't lose any of your "Rights" even though you terrorized the whole community and murdered and maimed many? We should just look at you and say, shame, shame and go on with our lives, or at least those of us still alive.

I don't understand what you're getting at.

I clearly stated that government does have the ability to remove rights from people. The Constitution does not guarantee rights if you choose to surrender them by violating law.

If I am a convicted felon, the government has the ability to not allow me to exercise my right of firearm ownership. I made that choice when I decided to become a felon.

But it wasn't your choice. I know of a number of convicted felons on Parole that certainly don't have that choice. It's not the person that removes those "Rights", it's the Government. And guess why?

The government removes rights based on your actions. The felons you know did make that choice when they committed their crimes and got caught. Ask anyone of them if they knew they wouldn't be able to ever possess a firearm again, vote in most states, and have difficulty finding a decent paying job.

They knew all of these things before committing the crime, so they made that choice. Nobody forced them to rob a convenience store.

Yet you say that the Government can't take anyone's rights. You even said it applied to Felons. Your goal post must be Quantum powered. Now, who grants you those rights in the first place. And don't say it's God Given. If a person is an Athiest does that mean they have no rights?

My entire argument is that rights are given to us by the government. How could government take something away they didn't give you in the first place?

The government does not take rights away it prevents a person who has by due process of law been denied the free exercise of those rights from engaging in the behavior of exercising a right.

Rights are not given or taken away because rights are said to exist within each individual

The state cannot grant rights it can only grant privileges

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

I don't understand what you're getting at.

I clearly stated that government does have the ability to remove rights from people. The Constitution does not guarantee rights if you choose to surrender them by violating law.

If I am a convicted felon, the government has the ability to not allow me to exercise my right of firearm ownership. I made that choice when I decided to become a felon.

But it wasn't your choice. I know of a number of convicted felons on Parole that certainly don't have that choice. It's not the person that removes those "Rights", it's the Government. And guess why?

The government removes rights based on your actions. The felons you know did make that choice when they committed their crimes and got caught. Ask anyone of them if they knew they wouldn't be able to ever possess a firearm again, vote in most states, and have difficulty finding a decent paying job.

They knew all of these things before committing the crime, so they made that choice. Nobody forced them to rob a convenience store.

Yet you say that the Government can't take anyone's rights. You even said it applied to Felons. Your goal post must be Quantum powered. Now, who grants you those rights in the first place. And don't say it's God Given. If a person is an Athiest does that mean they have no rights?

My entire argument is that rights are given to us by the government. How could government take something away they didn't give you in the first place?

The government does not take rights away it prevents a person who has by due process of law been denied the free exercise of those rights from engaging in the behavior of exercising a right.

Rights are not given or taken away because rights are said to exist within each individual

The state cannot grant rights it can only grant privileges

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

They can say what they like. The fact is rights are taken away regardless how you frame it being suspended, restricted, whatever. If you no longer have a right, it doesn't matter what word you use for that right no longer existing in your situation.

 

[Rigby5]

I don't understand what you're getting at.

I clearly stated that government does have the ability to remove rights from people. The Constitution does not guarantee rights if you choose to surrender them by violating law.

If I am a convicted felon, the government has the ability to not allow me to exercise my right of firearm ownership. I made that choice when I decided to become a felon.

But it wasn't your choice. I know of a number of convicted felons on Parole that certainly don't have that choice. It's not the person that removes those "Rights", it's the Government. And guess why?

The government removes rights based on your actions. The felons you know did make that choice when they committed their crimes and got caught. Ask anyone of them if they knew they wouldn't be able to ever possess a firearm again, vote in most states, and have difficulty finding a decent paying job.

They knew all of these things before committing the crime, so they made that choice. Nobody forced them to rob a convenience store.

Yet you say that the Government can't take anyone's rights. You even said it applied to Felons. Your goal post must be Quantum powered. Now, who grants you those rights in the first place. And don't say it's God Given. If a person is an Athiest does that mean they have no rights?

I also don’t recall any right to bear arms in any scripture.

The people grant rights through the government.

If that is the case, it's done and undone through due process. Is everyone learning something?

Due process is how we restrict or uphold rights, but not how they are granted.
They have to exist first, before government is created by us, so can not be the result of government in any way.
You can say rights are inherent to human nature, created by divine inspiration, or whatever you want.
But clearly everyone has always recognized their existence,
They just do not always want to uphold them to others.
The proof everyone knows rights exists is what they anticipate.
For example, they know slaves are going to want their freedom, so the plantation owner will use chains,
Anyone claiming rights are somehow invented by government recently, has no knowledge of history or human nature.

 

[Rigby5]

I don't understand what you're getting at.

I clearly stated that government does have the ability to remove rights from people. The Constitution does not guarantee rights if you choose to surrender them by violating law.

If I am a convicted felon, the government has the ability to not allow me to exercise my right of firearm ownership. I made that choice when I decided to become a felon.

But it wasn't your choice. I know of a number of convicted felons on Parole that certainly don't have that choice. It's not the person that removes those "Rights", it's the Government. And guess why?

The government removes rights based on your actions. The felons you know did make that choice when they committed their crimes and got caught. Ask anyone of them if they knew they wouldn't be able to ever possess a firearm again, vote in most states, and have difficulty finding a decent paying job.

They knew all of these things before committing the crime, so they made that choice. Nobody forced them to rob a convenience store.

Yet you say that the Government can't take anyone's rights. You even said it applied to Felons. Your goal post must be Quantum powered. Now, who grants you those rights in the first place. And don't say it's God Given. If a person is an Athiest does that mean they have no rights?

I also don’t recall any right to bear arms in any scripture.

The people grant rights through the government.

No, they don't. You clearly don't understand the meaning of the word "rights", or the difference between them and privileges.

Correct!
Rights can not be granted or taken away like privileges can.
The fact rights can be restricted due to the needs of the rights of others, is not by or for government, and does not mean government can take rights away.

 

[Rigby5]

But it wasn't your choice. I know of a number of convicted felons on Parole that certainly don't have that choice. It's not the person that removes those "Rights", it's the Government. And guess why?

The government removes rights based on your actions. The felons you know did make that choice when they committed their crimes and got caught. Ask anyone of them if they knew they wouldn't be able to ever possess a firearm again, vote in most states, and have difficulty finding a decent paying job.

They knew all of these things before committing the crime, so they made that choice. Nobody forced them to rob a convenience store.

Yet you say that the Government can't take anyone's rights. You even said it applied to Felons. Your goal post must be Quantum powered. Now, who grants you those rights in the first place. And don't say it's God Given. If a person is an Athiest does that mean they have no rights?

I also don’t recall any right to bear arms in any scripture.

The people grant rights through the government.

No, they don't. You clearly don't understand the meaning of the word "rights", or the difference between them and privileges.

Easy answer. A Right is only a Right as long as it doesn't negatively affect another person or persons. And at that point it becomes a Privilege.

Wrong. A right is inherent, so can not be taken away. A restriction is not taking the right away.
Privileges can be arbitrarily given or taken away, without due process.

 

[Rigby5]

But it wasn't your choice. I know of a number of convicted felons on Parole that certainly don't have that choice. It's not the person that removes those "Rights", it's the Government. And guess why?

The government removes rights based on your actions. The felons you know did make that choice when they committed their crimes and got caught. Ask anyone of them if they knew they wouldn't be able to ever possess a firearm again, vote in most states, and have difficulty finding a decent paying job.

They knew all of these things before committing the crime, so they made that choice. Nobody forced them to rob a convenience store.

Yet you say that the Government can't take anyone's rights. You even said it applied to Felons. Your goal post must be Quantum powered. Now, who grants you those rights in the first place. And don't say it's God Given. If a person is an Athiest does that mean they have no rights?

My entire argument is that rights are given to us by the government. How could government take something away they didn't give you in the first place?

The government does not take rights away it prevents a person who has by due process of law been denied the free exercise of those rights from engaging in the behavior of exercising a right.

Rights are not given or taken away because rights are said to exist within each individual

The state cannot grant rights it can only grant privileges

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

They can say what they like. The fact is rights are taken away regardless how you frame it being suspended, restricted, whatever. If you no longer have a right, it doesn't matter what word you use for that right no longer existing in your situation.

Wrong.
If you lost rights when convicted of a crime, then they would not have to feed, cloth, amuse, or do anything for you.
You would have no right to watch TV, make phone calls, conjugal visits, be protected from other violent inmates or guards, etc.
No one can freely rob, murder, or rape a prisoner.
Prisoners clearly have rights.
The fact there are limits on freedoms is due to the need to protect others, not because government has any authority over your rights.

 

[Flopper]

You misunderstand.
Rights are inherent for what is right to humans.
If the country is invaded or criminals take over some other way, what is right remains right.
The fact you may no longer have government backing up your rights changes nothing as far as what is right and what rights you will fight for.
The fact you may be killed, does not alter what is right and what rights all humans should inherently have.
Having rights does not mean they necessarily can't be violated.
We have the right to life now in the US, but some one can still murder you.
That does not change your right to life.
You can tell because the murderer will be prosecuted if caught.
Governments or criminals can not change what is right or what rights are.

No, because the Constitution refers to the government violating your rights, not another individual.

A convicted felon cannot buy or be in possession of a firearm. The right to be in possession of a firearm is guaranteed in the Constitution. The people who took that right away from you was the government. Same thing with voting.

The right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is also guaranteed. But if you are arrested, imprisoned, and even sentenced to execution, all those rights are taken away from you by the government. If you are imprisoned, you lose the right to liberty by the government. If you are imprisoned, you are denied the right to happiness by the government. If you are imprisoned and executed for a capital crime, your right to life has been eliminated by the government.

And what got you there in the first place? You violated others right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

So where in the Constitution does it say if "I" violate somebody's rights, the government has the right to violate mine?

As I stated, rights were granted so that government could not violate them. As an individual, I have no mandate to do the same. The Constitution doesn't prohibit me from violating your rights, it prohibits the government from violating those rights.

In other words, government cannot stop me from free speech, but if I go to work and call my boss a MF, and tell him to go to hell, he can fire me because he's not bound by the Constitution of allowing free speech. Only the government is. So I can call my Congress person a MF, and tell him or her to go to hell with no repercussions, but I can't do the same with my employer.

So you say that you can go into a school, murder 40 school children, wouldn't a couple of hundred and you can't lose any of your "Rights" even though you terrorized the whole community and murdered and maimed many? We should just look at you and say, shame, shame and go on with our lives, or at least those of us still alive.

Since government does not create or grant rights, it can not take them away.
When a person is incarcerated, their rights are restricted, but not by government.
The authority is coming from those others the government is obligated to protect.
And if another inmate murders a prisoner, the other inmate is charged with murder, so you still have rights, even if restricted,

Constitutional guaranteed rights such the 1st and 2nd amendment are not absolute. Government can suspend the guarantee of those rights in certain circumstances. A person is not guaranteed freedom to cry fire in crowded auditorium nor is a convicted felon guaranteed the right to bear arms. Governments have the right and obligation to protect it's people. If that requires suspension of constitutional rights for prisoners, those convicted of felons, and the mentally ill so be it.

 

[Flopper]

But it wasn't your choice. I know of a number of convicted felons on Parole that certainly don't have that choice. It's not the person that removes those "Rights", it's the Government. And guess why?

The government removes rights based on your actions. The felons you know did make that choice when they committed their crimes and got caught. Ask anyone of them if they knew they wouldn't be able to ever possess a firearm again, vote in most states, and have difficulty finding a decent paying job.

They knew all of these things before committing the crime, so they made that choice. Nobody forced them to rob a convenience store.

Yet you say that the Government can't take anyone's rights. You even said it applied to Felons. Your goal post must be Quantum powered. Now, who grants you those rights in the first place. And don't say it's God Given. If a person is an Athiest does that mean they have no rights?

My entire argument is that rights are given to us by the government. How could government take something away they didn't give you in the first place?

So now we are on the same page. God didn't give you the "Rights". The Government did. And Rights cannot be taken away, right? it works out this way, you call them rights but when a right affects others in a negative fashion, they become privileges. And Privileges can be taken away as long as it's done using Due Process.

Now, revisit the 2nd amendment.

We create government, not the other way around.
So it it an impossible contradiction to claim government creates rights or can legally take them away.
Those incarcerated still do have rights that can not legally be abused.
Government can restrict rights, but never take them away, and even restrictions have to be required in order to protect the rights of others.

The authority to restrict rights comes from the need to protect the rights of others, NOT from government.
Government is not the source of any authority at all.
That should be obvious, since WE create government.
Government is just a hired agent we delegate some of our authority to.

You are correct that government does not create rights but it does guarantee certain rights and those guarantees are not absolute. They can be suspended depending on the situation. The courts interpretation of the fifth amendment allows government via due process to suspend constitutional guarantees that would result in a threat to life and liberty of others in certain situations. For example, the guarantee of the right of the seriously mentally ill or convicted felons to bear arms can be suspended if the guarantee of those rights would endanger the public.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

But it wasn't your choice. I know of a number of convicted felons on Parole that certainly don't have that choice. It's not the person that removes those "Rights", it's the Government. And guess why?

The government removes rights based on your actions. The felons you know did make that choice when they committed their crimes and got caught. Ask anyone of them if they knew they wouldn't be able to ever possess a firearm again, vote in most states, and have difficulty finding a decent paying job.

They knew all of these things before committing the crime, so they made that choice. Nobody forced them to rob a convenience store.

Yet you say that the Government can't take anyone's rights. You even said it applied to Felons. Your goal post must be Quantum powered. Now, who grants you those rights in the first place. And don't say it's God Given. If a person is an Athiest does that mean they have no rights?

My entire argument is that rights are given to us by the government. How could government take something away they didn't give you in the first place?

So now we are on the same page. God didn't give you the "Rights". The Government did. And Rights cannot be taken away, right? it works out this way, you call them rights but when a right affects others in a negative fashion, they become privileges. And Privileges can be taken away as long as it's done using Due Process.

Now, revisit the 2nd amendment.

Rights don't become privileges. Rights are rights and privileges are privileges. They don't become anything than what they are.

Like I said, government does take away rights. They do it to us truck drivers every single day. Those rights don't apply to us because we did get a CDL and did pursue that line of work. In other words we surrendered specific rights when we entered that career.

Whether you want to use the words suspend, restricted, removed, it's all the same thing when you no longer have that right(s) for whatever reason.

You are tap dancing around the issue. Rights cannot be taken. And the only being that presents rights is God. And He has nothing to do with you driving your truck. Okay, maybe a little with the way some truckers drive.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

I don't understand what you're getting at.

I clearly stated that government does have the ability to remove rights from people. The Constitution does not guarantee rights if you choose to surrender them by violating law.

If I am a convicted felon, the government has the ability to not allow me to exercise my right of firearm ownership. I made that choice when I decided to become a felon.

But it wasn't your choice. I know of a number of convicted felons on Parole that certainly don't have that choice. It's not the person that removes those "Rights", it's the Government. And guess why?

The government removes rights based on your actions. The felons you know did make that choice when they committed their crimes and got caught. Ask anyone of them if they knew they wouldn't be able to ever possess a firearm again, vote in most states, and have difficulty finding a decent paying job.

They knew all of these things before committing the crime, so they made that choice. Nobody forced them to rob a convenience store.

Yet you say that the Government can't take anyone's rights. You even said it applied to Felons. Your goal post must be Quantum powered. Now, who grants you those rights in the first place. And don't say it's God Given. If a person is an Athiest does that mean they have no rights?

I also don’t recall any right to bear arms in any scripture.

The people grant rights through the government.

Sorry, no.

Our rights are inalienable, they can be neither taken nor bestowed by any government, constitution, or man.

Where in the Bible or the Koran or any other major Religious Bible is there a US Constitution of the United States? Or the States Constitutions? Or Municipals?

 

[Rigby5]

So you say that you can go into a school, murder 40 school children, wouldn't a couple of hundred and you can't lose any of your "Rights" even though you terrorized the whole community and murdered and maimed many? We should just look at you and say, shame, shame and go on with our lives, or at least those of us still alive.

I don't understand what you're getting at.

I clearly stated that government does have the ability to remove rights from people. The Constitution does not guarantee rights if you choose to surrender them by violating law.

If I am a convicted felon, the government has the ability to not allow me to exercise my right of firearm ownership. I made that choice when I decided to become a felon.

But it wasn't your choice. I know of a number of convicted felons on Parole that certainly don't have that choice. It's not the person that removes those "Rights", it's the Government. And guess why?

The government removes rights based on your actions. The felons you know did make that choice when they committed their crimes and got caught. Ask anyone of them if they knew they wouldn't be able to ever possess a firearm again, vote in most states, and have difficulty finding a decent paying job.

They knew all of these things before committing the crime, so they made that choice. Nobody forced them to rob a convenience store.

Yet you say that the Government can't take anyone's rights. You even said it applied to Felons. Your goal post must be Quantum powered. Now, who grants you those rights in the first place. And don't say it's God Given. If a person is an Athiest does that mean they have no rights?

My entire argument is that rights are given to us by the government. How could government take something away they didn't give you in the first place?

We the people, created this government, based on what Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence,
{...We hold these truths to be self-evident, ... that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. ...}
That does not imply they are God given, but instead based on the human condition created by our universal DNA.
So it is impossible for rights to have been created by government. Government is subordinate to us, the people.
And we can not create something that has more power than we do.
What you suggest is impossible.
And the reality is that government has no authority of its own at all, and only acts on what little authority we delegate to government, when we want government to do something for us, such as protecting our rights.

And the fact government can not possibly grant rights, is why government also can not take them away.
For example, everyone has the right to smoke if they want, but it does not at all reduce your rights to temporarily have that right restricted while you are in an elevator, for example.

 

[Rigby5]

But it wasn't your choice. I know of a number of convicted felons on Parole that certainly don't have that choice. It's not the person that removes those "Rights", it's the Government. And guess why?

The government removes rights based on your actions. The felons you know did make that choice when they committed their crimes and got caught. Ask anyone of them if they knew they wouldn't be able to ever possess a firearm again, vote in most states, and have difficulty finding a decent paying job.

They knew all of these things before committing the crime, so they made that choice. Nobody forced them to rob a convenience store.

Yet you say that the Government can't take anyone's rights. You even said it applied to Felons. Your goal post must be Quantum powered. Now, who grants you those rights in the first place. And don't say it's God Given. If a person is an Athiest does that mean they have no rights?

I also don’t recall any right to bear arms in any scripture.

The people grant rights through the government.

Sorry, no.

Our rights are inalienable, they can be neither taken nor bestowed by any government, constitution, or man.

Where in the Bible or the Koran or any other major Religious Bible is there a US Constitution of the United States? Or the States Constitutions? Or Municipals?

Constitutions are created by men, so can not be a source of authority that is greater than the individuals who created the Constitution.
The principles of law and ethics are ancient, derived from millions of years of evolution and tens of thousands of years of social experimentation.
Law and the inherent rights of individuals would be much more clear if we had not had a couple thousand years of Roman conquests, Dark Ages, Crusades, Inqusitions, burning witches, conquistadors, etc.
But by now we should understand that only inherent individual rights are the legitimate source of all authority.

 

[Rigby5]

So you say that you can go into a school, murder 40 school children, wouldn't a couple of hundred and you can't lose any of your "Rights" even though you terrorized the whole community and murdered and maimed many? We should just look at you and say, shame, shame and go on with our lives, or at least those of us still alive.

I don't understand what you're getting at.

I clearly stated that government does have the ability to remove rights from people. The Constitution does not guarantee rights if you choose to surrender them by violating law.

If I am a convicted felon, the government has the ability to not allow me to exercise my right of firearm ownership. I made that choice when I decided to become a felon.

But it wasn't your choice. I know of a number of convicted felons on Parole that certainly don't have that choice. It's not the person that removes those "Rights", it's the Government. And guess why?

The government removes rights based on your actions. The felons you know did make that choice when they committed their crimes and got caught. Ask anyone of them if they knew they wouldn't be able to ever possess a firearm again, vote in most states, and have difficulty finding a decent paying job.

They knew all of these things before committing the crime, so they made that choice. Nobody forced them to rob a convenience store.

Yet you say that the Government can't take anyone's rights. You even said it applied to Felons. Your goal post must be Quantum powered. Now, who grants you those rights in the first place. And don't say it's God Given. If a person is an Athiest does that mean they have no rights?

I also don’t recall any right to bear arms in any scripture.

The people grant rights through the government.

Nonsense.
Government is created by the inherent authority and rights all individuals are born with.
That is not just what Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence, but what essentially all philosophers say.
Government can never be the source of any authority or rights because we have to have authority and rights first, if we are to create government,
And what we create can not possibly have more authority than we do.
So it is impossible for us to create government, which then grants us the right to create government. That would be ridiculously circular,
Clearly rights have to be inherent to each and every individual. Through our DNA, God, or what ever. It does not matter where rights come from, but they can not possibly come from something we created, like government.