Gun Debate Illustrates Two Different Americas

[Brain357]

Are you involved in criminal activity? If not you won't be attacked by several people, grow up.

Smaller magazines will allow you to practice your reload more often.

Again, the worst mass shootings have been done with high capacity magazines for a reason. They allow the shooter to fire many more rounds without having to reload. The are made for mass killing.

Agree - The AR is a weapon of war. Am I for banning them? Nope - too many out there. But they are indeed the weapon of choice for those hellbent on carnage and their ability to do so is well documented by ER physicians:

What I Saw Treating the Victims From Parkland Should Change the Debate on Guns

Tighten up the rules, databases, BG checks AND the ability of cops to take them away from kooks like Nikolas Cruz who had over 50 reports to law enforcement yet, in the Gunshine State - they were powerless.

Newtown - the same heart wrenching story:

High capacity magazines should be banned. Let them keep the guns.

 

[2aguy]

Are you involved in criminal activity? If not you won't be attacked by several people, grow up.

Smaller magazines will allow you to practice your reload more often.

Again, the worst mass shootings have been done with high capacity magazines for a reason. They allow the shooter to fire many more rounds without having to reload. The are made for mass killing.

Agree - The AR is a weapon of war. Am I for banning them? Nope - too many out there. But they are indeed the weapon of choice for those hellbent on carnage and their ability to do so is well documented by ER physicians:

What I Saw Treating the Victims From Parkland Should Change the Debate on Guns

Tighten up the rules, databases, BG checks AND the ability of cops to take them away from kooks like Nikolas Cruz who had over 50 reports to law enforcement yet, in the Gunshine State - they were powerless.

Newtown - the same heart wrenching story:

The AR-15 is not a weapon of war, it has never been used by the military has never been used in combat....

And most mass shootings...dumb ass, are done with pistols....the worst mass shooting was Virginia Tech....32 people killed with 2 pistols...you dumb ass.

 

[2aguy]

You don't think the cops would have gotten clear description of the suspect, before arriving at the school ?

Nope - the school resource officer may know the teacher, but this shit happens too fast for cops arriving on the scene to have any sort of accurate description of the perp, OR know the armed teacher.

And that is why MOST law enforcement associations oppose.

And yet, in actual mass public shootings where you actually had civiians with guns, out and in many cases having shot the attacker, the police never make that mistake.....it is a fantasy that you guys conjure up to scare people...

Gabby Giffords shooting......2 men, with concealed carry pistols out in the open.....nothing happened.

Black Lives Matter shooter in Texas.....he starts shooting at cops during a march where civilians have AR-15 rifles slung over their shoulders and pistols on their hips, the civilians got out of the way and the cops dealt with the black lives matter shooter.

The Texas church shooter....the NRA Instructor who shot the attacker...saving 26 lives and likely more, was at the scene of the killer when he pulled over, and waited for the police to arrive, pointing his AR-15 civilian rifle at the attackers car...when the police arrived, they provided the NRA instructor cover with their car so he could retreat...


Nothing you posted is born out by actual real world events.....

And more...

Defensive Gun Use of the Day: LA CCW Stops Mass Shooting - The Truth About Guns

On the afternoon of 31 January, 2016, some ten ATVs were getting gas at the intersection of Claiborne and Esplanade Avenues in New Orleans, Louisiana. Richard Macklin pulled up in a white Volvo. Police said Macklin became upset; the ATV riders were blocking the gas pumps. He pulled out a firearm and opened fire, sending more than a dozen rounds into the crowd. Three were wounded.


One of the wounded was armed . . .

He drew his legally carried weapon and fired at Macklin, hitting him in the head and stopping the attack. During the initial investigation, officers concluded that the person who fired back did so in legitimate defense of self and others

And these mass shootings stopped by armed civilians.......the cops did not shoot them..


Deputies Osceola pastor shot church janitor in self-defense ( 0 dead)

6 Shot At New Life Church Gunman 2 Churchgoers Dead - 7NEWS Denver TheDenverChannel.com ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

Remember This SC Concealed Carrier Stops Mass Shooting During Church Service. No Casualties. ( 0 dead)

**********

No guns: 41 dead

Sikh temple ( 6 dead, 4 wounded)

Charleston ( 9 dead)

Texas church shooting (26 dead)


Parishioners with guns: 2 dead

Osceola ( 0 dead )

New life ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

South Carolina shotgun guy ( 0 dead)

Countries with strong gun control don't have a mass shooting problem.

And that is a lie.....Britain, France, Norway, Belgium .....they have mass shootings, they have fewer, but that is due to culture and values not gun control...you know this, you lie about knowing it...you are a troll.

Sure they have them, very rarely. Having one every few years isn't a problem. We have them regularly. Only the US with the most guns and the weakest laws has them regularly. And they are getting worse.

The actual number of mass public shootings since 1982......

US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation


2017: 11 ( 5 according to the old standard)

2016....6

2015....4 ( obama's new standard....7)

2014....2 (4)

2013....5

2012....7

2011....3

2010....1

2009....4

2008....3

2007....4

2006....3

2005...2

2004....1

2003...1

2002 not listed so more than likely 0

2001....1

2000....1

1999....5

1998...3

1997....2

1996....1

1995...1

1994...1

1993...4

1992...2

1991...3

1990...1

1989...2

1988....1

1987...1

1986...1

1985... not listed so probably 0

1984...2

1983...not listed so probably 0

1982...1
US

 

[Brain357]

And yet, in actual mass public shootings where you actually had civiians with guns, out and in many cases having shot the attacker, the police never make that mistake.....it is a fantasy that you guys conjure up to scare people...

Gabby Giffords shooting......2 men, with concealed carry pistols out in the open.....nothing happened.

Black Lives Matter shooter in Texas.....he starts shooting at cops during a march where civilians have AR-15 rifles slung over their shoulders and pistols on their hips, the civilians got out of the way and the cops dealt with the black lives matter shooter.

The Texas church shooter....the NRA Instructor who shot the attacker...saving 26 lives and likely more, was at the scene of the killer when he pulled over, and waited for the police to arrive, pointing his AR-15 civilian rifle at the attackers car...when the police arrived, they provided the NRA instructor cover with their car so he could retreat...


Nothing you posted is born out by actual real world events.....

And more...

Defensive Gun Use of the Day: LA CCW Stops Mass Shooting - The Truth About Guns

On the afternoon of 31 January, 2016, some ten ATVs were getting gas at the intersection of Claiborne and Esplanade Avenues in New Orleans, Louisiana. Richard Macklin pulled up in a white Volvo. Police said Macklin became upset; the ATV riders were blocking the gas pumps. He pulled out a firearm and opened fire, sending more than a dozen rounds into the crowd. Three were wounded.


One of the wounded was armed . . .

He drew his legally carried weapon and fired at Macklin, hitting him in the head and stopping the attack. During the initial investigation, officers concluded that the person who fired back did so in legitimate defense of self and others

And these mass shootings stopped by armed civilians.......the cops did not shoot them..


Deputies Osceola pastor shot church janitor in self-defense ( 0 dead)

6 Shot At New Life Church Gunman 2 Churchgoers Dead - 7NEWS Denver TheDenverChannel.com ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

Remember This SC Concealed Carrier Stops Mass Shooting During Church Service. No Casualties. ( 0 dead)

**********

No guns: 41 dead

Sikh temple ( 6 dead, 4 wounded)

Charleston ( 9 dead)

Texas church shooting (26 dead)


Parishioners with guns: 2 dead

Osceola ( 0 dead )

New life ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

South Carolina shotgun guy ( 0 dead)

Wow, did you strain anything cutting and pasting all this propaganda?

With regard to at least one of the concealed carriers at Giffords shooting there is THIS regarding the good guy with the gun who nearly shot the wrong dude who had actually just wrestled the gun away from Mr Loughner:

The man with the gun wasn't the shooter. He had wrested the gun away from the shooter. "Had you shot that guy, it would have been a big, fat mess," the interviewer pointed out.

Zamudio agreed:

"I was very lucky. Honestly, it was a matter of seconds. Two, maybe three seconds between when I came through the doorway and when I was laying on top of [the real shooter, holding him down. So, I mean, in that short amount of time I made a lot of really big decisions really fast. … I was really lucky."​

Armed Giffords hero nearly shot wrong man

It is a great example of why we need a ban on high capacity magazines:
Loughner proceeded to fire apparently randomly at other members of the crowd.[1][21] He reportedly used a 9×19mm Glock 19 semi-automatic pistol with a 33-round magazine.[22][23] A nearby store employee said he heard "15 to 20 gunshots".[24] Loughner stopped to reload, but dropped the loaded magazine from his pocket to the sidewalk, from where bystander Patricia Maisch grabbed it.[25] Another bystander clubbed the back of the assailant's head with a folding chair, injuring his elbow in the process, representing the fourteenth injury.

Fewer would have been shot if he needed to reload sooner. Look at that Ray, he dropped the magazine trying to reload.

You are such a moron....you know that he chose that isn't how it happened.....he shot a gun in the head, and walked up and past that guy...the guy who was shot was merely wounded instead of having his brains blown out, got up behind the guy and tackled him...the old lady laid on the ground as the killer approached hoping he wouldn't shoot her....and he was tackled within arms reach of her, so she reached out and grabbed the dropped magazine...

Dumb luck....but there was a concealed carry permit holder there ready to shoot the guy....

YOu know this story, and you pretend you don't...you are a troll...

The Tucson Atrocity: Joe Zamudio’s StoryAmerican Handgunner | American Handgunner

And from this...he wasn't tackled during a magazine change, he shot a guy, Bill Badger, and thought he killed him...he let badger get behind him and that is when he was tackled, then the old lady got the magazine after she laid on the ground in front of loughner trying to be a small target.....

Brain is wrong....

from the article...

And another point for you brain and for you bfgrn...the only reason they were able to wrestle him....just plain, stupid luck........otherwise, he would have reloaded and kept shooting...he missed this guy....

Joe adds, “Bill Badger was bleeding profusely from his head. He told me as Loughner was shooting everyone, (Loughner approached him and) pointed the gun at Bill’s head. Bill reflexively turned his head away, and when Loughner fired, the bullet took skin off down to the skull but did no real damage. Bill went down. When the gun stopped firing, Bill raised back up and Loughner was right in front of him. That was when the wrestling started.

Not rushing the guy during a magazine change brain, and Bfgrn...he thought the guy was dead....after he shot him...and let Bill Badger get behind him.......you are wrong again brain....

And what did the old lady do....

Woman Stopped Tucson Shooter From Reloading



She considered trying to run away, she said, but thought that would make her more of a target, so she laid down on the ground. But then something unexpected happened.

"Then he was next to me on the ground," she said. "The gentleman knocked him down.

"I kneeled over him. He was pulling a magazine [to reload] and I grabbed the magazine and secured that. I think the men got the gun, and I was able to get the magazine," she said.





The story as I put it in my post....



no one rushed the guy as he was changing magazines....

The shooter shot one guy in the head...but instead of killing him he grazed him and he fell to the ground. Thinking he had killed the guy, named Bill.....the shooter advanced up to where the guy had fallen.....the guy said he was able to then rise up and grab the shooter.....it was an instance of pure, dumb luck...had the shooter hit the guy in the head and killed him...no one would have stopped him...had he just stayed in place or moved in another direction, no one would have stopped him by charging him....

And the woman, who allegedly grabbed the magazine out of his hand...another myth.....

The woman saw the shooter advancing on her....she didn't think she could run away so she decided to just lay down and hoped he would just pass her by.....as she was laying on the ground, the guy who was shot in the head tackled the shooter...and they fell right in front of the woman.....so close she just had to extend her arm and grab his magazine........

another instance of dumb luck....

And...oh yeah....the magazine apparently malfunctioned...which is why he was changing it....he didn't run out of ammo...had the magazine not failed he would have kept shooting too....

the 3rd instance of dumb luck at the shooting....

And by the way....there were two concealed carry permit holders ready to shoot the guy....but by then he had been tackled and dealt with...no one mentions that, do they.....?

Here is the story from the actual participants....the video from ABC news has an interview with the guy who was shot in the head......

The Tucson Atrocity: Joe Zamudio’s StoryAmerican Handgunner | American Handgunner


from the article...


Joe adds, “Bill Badger was bleeding profusely from his head. He told me as Loughner was shooting everyone, (Loughner approached him and) pointed the gun at Bill’s head. Bill reflexively turned his head away, and when Loughner fired, the bullet took skin off down to the skull but did no real damage. Bill went down. When the gun stopped firing, Bill raised back up and Loughner was right in front of him. That was when the wrestling started.

----Aftermath/Afterthoughts
Joe was prepared to stop the killer with gunfire if he had to. He says today, “I was just truly blessed I didn’t have to pull my firearm. I didn’t have to go to that place




And what did the old lady do....

in this link there is a pop up video of the interview with the guy named Bill, who was shot in the head...but just grazed.....

Bill Badger, the guy who initially tackled him states the shooter was right next to him as he got up....he got up off of the ground and the shooter had walked right up close to him, allowing him to grab him....

Woman Stopped Tucson Shooter From Reloading



She considered trying to run away, she said, but thought that would make her more of a target, so she laid down on the ground. But then something unexpected happened.

"Then he was next to me on the ground," she said. "The gentleman knocked him down.

"I kneeled over him. He was pulling a magazine [to reload] and I grabbed the magazine and secured that. I think the men got the gun, and I was able to get the magazine," she said.



The Gifford's shooting was not stopped by heroic people rushing the shooter as he changed magzines because he ran out of bullets......it was stopped by 3 incidents of dumb luck that came together that allowed heroic people to take the guy down.....otherwise the concealed carrier would have shot him.....

He stopped firing and dropped his reload magazine.

Loughner proceeded to fire apparently randomly at other members of the crowd.[1][21] He reportedly used a 9×19mm Glock 19 semi-automatic pistol with a 33-round magazine.[22][23] A nearby store employee said he heard "15 to 20 gunshots".[24] Loughner stopped to reload, but dropped the loaded magazine from his pocket to the sidewalk, from where bystander Patricia Maisch grabbed it.[25] Another bystander clubbed the back of the assailant's head with a folding chair, injuring his elbow in the process, representing the fourteenth injury.

 

[2aguy]

Are you involved in criminal activity? If not you won't be attacked by several people, grow up.

Smaller magazines will allow you to practice your reload more often.

Again, the worst mass shootings have been done with high capacity magazines for a reason. They allow the shooter to fire many more rounds without having to reload. The are made for mass killing.

Agree - The AR is a weapon of war. Am I for banning them? Nope - too many out there. But they are indeed the weapon of choice for those hellbent on carnage and their ability to do so is well documented by ER physicians:

What I Saw Treating the Victims From Parkland Should Change the Debate on Guns

Tighten up the rules, databases, BG checks AND the ability of cops to take them away from kooks like Nikolas Cruz who had over 50 reports to law enforcement yet, in the Gunshine State - they were powerless.

Newtown - the same heart wrenching story:

High capacity magazines should be banned. Let them keep the guns.

Magazine capacity has nothing to do with mass shootings dumb ass...the last guy and the guy in Santa Barbara used 10 round magazines....you are such a moron...

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1525107116674926

Large-Capacity Magazines and the Casualty Counts in Mass Shootings: The Plausibility of Linkages by Gary Kleck :: SSRN

Do bans on large-capacity magazines (LCMs) for semiautomatic firearms have significant potential for reducing the number of deaths and injuries in mass shootings?
The most common rationale for an effect of LCM use is that they allow mass killers to fire many rounds without reloading.
LCMs are used is less than 1/3 of 1% of mass shootings.
News accounts of 23 shootings in which more than six people were killed or wounded and LCMs were used, occurring in the U.S. in 1994-2013, were examined.
There was only one incident in which the shooter may have been stopped by bystander intervention when he tried to reload.
In all of these 23 incidents the shooter possessed either multiple guns or multiple magazines, meaning that the shooter, even if denied LCMs, could have continued firing without significant interruption by either switching loaded guns or by changing smaller loaded magazines with only a 2-4 second delay for each magazine change.
Finally, the data indicate that mass shooters maintain slow enough rates of fire such that the time needed to reload would not increase the time between shots and thus the time available for prospective victims to escape.

--------

We did not employ the oft-used definition of “mass murder” as a homicide in which four or more victims were killed, because most of these involve just four to six victims (Duwe 2007), which could therefore have involved as few as six rounds fired, a number that shooters using even ordinary revolvers are capable of firing without reloading.

LCMs obviously cannot help shooters who fire no more rounds than could be fired without LCMs, so the inclusion of “nonaffectable” cases with only four to six victims would dilute the sample, reducing the percent of sample incidents in which an LCM might have affected the number of casualties.

Further, had we studied only homicides with four or more dead victims, drawn from the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Reports, we would have missed cases in which huge numbers of people were shot, and huge numbers of rounds were fired, but three or fewer of the victims died.


For example, in one widely publicized shooting carried out in Los Angeles on February 28, 1997, two bank robbers shot a total of 18 people - surely a mass shooting by any reasonable standard (Table 1).

Yet, because none of the people they shot died, this incident would not qualify as a mass murder (or even murder of any kind).

Exclusion of such incidents would bias the sample against the proposition that LCM use increases the number of victims by excluding incidents with large numbers of victims. We also excluded shootings in which more than six persons were shot over the entire course of the incident but shootings occurred in multiple locations with no more than six people shot in any one of the locations, and substantial periods of time intervened between episodes of shooting. An example is the series of killings committed by Rodrick Dantzler on July 7, 2011.

Once eligible incidents were identified, we searched through news accounts for details related to whether the use of LCMs could have influenced the casualty counts.

Specifically, we searched for

(1) the number of magazines in the shooter’s immediate possession,

(2) the capacity of the largest magazine,

(3) the number of guns in the shooter’s immediate possession during the incident,

(4) the types of guns possessed,

(5) whether the shooter reloaded during the incident,

(6) the number of rounds fired,

(7) the duration of the shooting from the first shot fired to the last, and (8) whether anyone intervened to stop the shooter.

Findings How Many Mass Shootings were Committed Using LCMs?

We identified 23 total incidents in which more than six people were shot at a single time and place in the U.S. from 1994 through 2013 and that were known to involve use of any magazines with capacities over ten rounds.


Table 1 summarizes key details of the LCMinvolved mass shootings relevant to the issues addressed in this paper.

(Table 1 about here) What fraction of all mass shootings involve LCMs?

There is no comprehensive listing of all mass shootings available for the entire 1994-2013 period, but the most extensive one currently available is at the Shootingtracker.com website, which only began its coverage in 2013.

-----

How Often Have Bystanders Intervened While a Mass Shooter Was Trying to Reload?

First, we consider the issue of how many times people have disrupted a mass shooting while the shooter was trying to load a detachable magazine into a semiautomatic gun.

Note that 16 it is irrelevant whether interveners have stopped a shooter while trying to reload some other type of gun, using other kinds of magazines, since we are addressing the potential significance of restrictions on the capacity of detachable magazines which are used only with semiautomatic firearms.

Thus, bystander intervention directed at shooters using other types of guns that take much longer to reload than a semiautomatic gun using detachable magazines could not provide any guidance as to the likelihood of bystander intervention when the shooter was using a semiautomatic gun equipped with detachable magazines that can be reloaded very quickly.

Prospective interveners would presumably be more likely to tackle a shooter who took a long time to reload than one who took only 2-4 seconds to do so.

Likewise, bystander interventions that occurred at a time when the shooter was not reloading (e.g., when he was struggling with a defective gun or magazine) are irrelevant, since that kind of intervention could occur regardless of what kinds of magazines or firearms the shooter was using.


It is the need to reload detachable magazines sooner and more often that differentiates shooters using smaller detachable magazines from those using larger ones.

For the period 1994-2013 inclusive, we identified three mass shooting incidents in which it was claimed that interveners disrupted the shooting by tackling the shooter while he was trying to reload.

In only one of the three cases, however, did interveners actually tackle the shooter while he may have been reloading a semiautomatic firearm.

In one of the incidents, the weapon in question was a shotgun that had to be reloaded by inserting one shotshell at a time into the weapon (Knoxville News Sentinel “Takedown of Alleged Shooter Recounted” July 29, 2008, regarding a shooting in Knoxville, TN on July 27, 2008), and so the incident is irrelevant to the effects of detachable LCMs.


In another incident, occurring in Springfield, Oregon on May 21, 1998, the shooter, Kip Kinkel, was using a semiautomatic gun, and he was tackled by bystanders, but not while he was reloading.

After exhausting the ammunition in one gun, the shooter started 17 firing another loaded gun, one of three firearms he had with him.

The first intervener was shot in the hand in the course of wresting this still-loaded gun away from the shooter (The (Portland) Oregonian, May 23, 1998).


The final case occurred in Tucson, AZ on January 8, 2011.

This is the shooting in which Jared Loughner attempted to assassinate Representative Gabrielle Giffords.

The shooter was using a semiautomatic firearm and was tackled by bystanders, purportedly while trying to reload a detachable magazine.

Even in this case, however, there were important uncertainties.

According to one news account, one bystander “grabbed a full magazine” that the shooter dropped, and two others helped subdue him (Associated Press, January 9, 2011).

It is not, however, clear whether this bystander intervention was facilitated because

(1) the shooter was reloading, or because

(2) the shooter stopping firing when his gun or magazine failed to function properly.

Eyewitness testimony, including that of the interveners, was inconsistent as to exactly why or how the intervention transpired in Giffords shooting.

One intervener insisted that he was sure the shooter had exhausted the ammunition in the first magazine (and thus was about to reload) because he saw the gun’s slide locked back – a condition he believed could only occur with this particular firearm after the last round is fired.

In fact, this can also happen when the guns jams, i.e. fails to chamber the next round (Salzgeber 2014; Morrill 2014).

Complicating matters further, the New York Times reported that the spring on the second magazine was broken, presumably rendering it incapable of functioning.

Their story’s headline and text characterized this mechanical failure as “perhaps the only fortunate event of the day” (New York Times “A Single, Terrifying Moment: Shots, Scuffle, Some Luck,” January 10, 2011, p. A1)

. If the New York Times account was accurate, the shooter would not have been able to continue shooting with that magazine even if no one had stopped him from loading it into his gun.

Detachable magazines of any size can malfunction, which would at least temporarily stop a prospective mass shooter from firing, and thereby provide an opportunity for bystanders to stop the shooter.
It is possible that the bystander intervention in the Tucson case could have occurred regardless of what size magazines the shooter possessed, since a shooter struggling with a defective small-capacity magazine would be just as vulnerable to disruption as one struggling with a defective large-capacity magazine. Thus, it remains unclear whether the shooter was reloading when the bystanders tackled him.
-----
The offenders in LCM-involved mass shootings were also known to have reloaded during 14 of the 23 (61%) incidents with magazine holding over 10 rounds.

The shooters were known to have not reloaded in another two of these 20 incidents and it could not be determined if they reloaded in the remaining seven incidents.

Thus, even if the shooters had been denied LCMs, we know that most of them definitely would have been able to reload smaller detachable magazines without interference from bystanders since they in fact did change magazines.

The fact that this percentage is less than 100% should not, however, be interpreted to mean that the shooters were unable to reload in the other nine incidents.

It is possible that the shooters could also have reloaded in many of these nine shootings, but chose not to do so, or did not need to do so in order to fire all the rounds they wanted to fire. This is consistent with the fact that there has been at most only one mass shootings in twenty years in which reloading a semiautomatic firearm might have been blocked by bystanders intervening and thereby stopping the shooter from doing all the shooting he wanted to do. All we know is that in two incidents the shooter did not reload, and news accounts of seven other incidents did not mention whether the offender reloaded.

----

For example, a story in the Hartford Courant about the Sandy Hook elementary school killings in 2012 was headlined “Shooter Paused, and Six Escaped,” the text asserting that as many as six children may have survived because the shooter paused to reload (December 23, 2012). ''

The author of the story, however, went on to concede that this was just a speculation by an unnamed source, and that it was also possible that some children simply escaped when the killer was shooting other children.

There was no reliable evidence that the pauses were due to the shooter reloading, rather than his guns jamming or the shooter simply choosing to pause his shooting while his gun was still loaded.

The plausibility of the “victims escape” rationale depends on the average rates of fire that shooters in mass shootings typically maintain.

If they fire very fast, the 2-4 seconds it takes to change box-type detachable magazines could produce a slowing of the rate of fire that the shooters otherwise would have maintained without the magazine changes, increasing the average time between rounds fired and potentially allowing more victims to escape during the betweenshot intervals.

On the other hand, if mass shooters fire their guns with the average interval between shots lasting more than 2-4 seconds, the pauses due to additional magazine changes would be no longer than the pauses the shooter typically took between shots even when not reloading.

In that case, there would be no more opportunity for potential victims to escape than there would have been without the additional magazine changes

-----

In sum, in nearly all LCM-involved mass shootings, the time it takes to reload a detachable magazine is no greater than the average time between shots that the shooter takes anyway when not reloading.

Consequently, there is no affirmative evidence that reloading detachable magazines slows mass shooters’ rates of fire, and thus no affirmative evidence that the number of victims who could escape the killers due to additional pauses in the shooting is increased by the shooter’s need to change magazines.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

1. I think your numbers are off on arming teachers - From your link:

Forty-four percent of Americans say they’d support arming more teachers, while 50 percent oppose the move.

In addition, law enforcement is opposed:
https://www.usnews.com/news/politic...dvocacy-group-says-it-opposes-arming-teachers

Even in Florida:
Florida sheriff comes out against arming teachers: 'Teachers should teach'

I noticed that number oddity too. We couldn't have 104%. But the poll (Politico) at least has the arming teacher supporters in the majority.

As for cops opposing arming teachers, what else is new ? All my life, I've known that cops don't like citizens having guns. They don't like arming teachers, don't like CCW, etc. They would like the only ones to have guns be THEM. Nothing special or new there.

So what would be the problem with adding one or two highly trained law enforcement professionals (number dependent on size of school) ???

You distrust a cop with years of training but embrace an armed neophyte? Don't get it.

A uniformed armed guard is easy to spot. If some kid in school decided to create a plot, he could find a way to disarm the guard.

One of the best things of a CCW is the C......concealed. Meaning you don't know if or who has a gun. It would make things much more confusing and difficult on somebody who was planning a mass murder in school or otherwise. That's why most shooters prefer gun-free zones. In a gun-free zone, they at least know what they are dealing with.

 

[Brain357]

Nope - the school resource officer may know the teacher, but this shit happens too fast for cops arriving on the scene to have any sort of accurate description of the perp, OR know the armed teacher.

And that is why MOST law enforcement associations oppose.

And yet, in actual mass public shootings where you actually had civiians with guns, out and in many cases having shot the attacker, the police never make that mistake.....it is a fantasy that you guys conjure up to scare people...

Gabby Giffords shooting......2 men, with concealed carry pistols out in the open.....nothing happened.

Black Lives Matter shooter in Texas.....he starts shooting at cops during a march where civilians have AR-15 rifles slung over their shoulders and pistols on their hips, the civilians got out of the way and the cops dealt with the black lives matter shooter.

The Texas church shooter....the NRA Instructor who shot the attacker...saving 26 lives and likely more, was at the scene of the killer when he pulled over, and waited for the police to arrive, pointing his AR-15 civilian rifle at the attackers car...when the police arrived, they provided the NRA instructor cover with their car so he could retreat...


Nothing you posted is born out by actual real world events.....

And more...

Defensive Gun Use of the Day: LA CCW Stops Mass Shooting - The Truth About Guns

On the afternoon of 31 January, 2016, some ten ATVs were getting gas at the intersection of Claiborne and Esplanade Avenues in New Orleans, Louisiana. Richard Macklin pulled up in a white Volvo. Police said Macklin became upset; the ATV riders were blocking the gas pumps. He pulled out a firearm and opened fire, sending more than a dozen rounds into the crowd. Three were wounded.


One of the wounded was armed . . .

He drew his legally carried weapon and fired at Macklin, hitting him in the head and stopping the attack. During the initial investigation, officers concluded that the person who fired back did so in legitimate defense of self and others

And these mass shootings stopped by armed civilians.......the cops did not shoot them..


Deputies Osceola pastor shot church janitor in self-defense ( 0 dead)

6 Shot At New Life Church Gunman 2 Churchgoers Dead - 7NEWS Denver TheDenverChannel.com ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

Remember This SC Concealed Carrier Stops Mass Shooting During Church Service. No Casualties. ( 0 dead)

**********

No guns: 41 dead

Sikh temple ( 6 dead, 4 wounded)

Charleston ( 9 dead)

Texas church shooting (26 dead)


Parishioners with guns: 2 dead

Osceola ( 0 dead )

New life ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

South Carolina shotgun guy ( 0 dead)

Countries with strong gun control don't have a mass shooting problem.

And that is a lie.....Britain, France, Norway, Belgium .....they have mass shootings, they have fewer, but that is due to culture and values not gun control...you know this, you lie about knowing it...you are a troll.

Sure they have them, very rarely. Having one every few years isn't a problem. We have them regularly. Only the US with the most guns and the weakest laws has them regularly. And they are getting worse.

The actual number of mass public shootings since 1982......

US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation


2017: 11 ( 5 according to the old standard)

2016....6

2015....4 ( obama's new standard....7)

2014....2 (4)

2013....5

2012....7

2011....3

2010....1

2009....4

2008....3

2007....4

2006....3

2005...2

2004....1

2003...1

2002 not listed so more than likely 0

2001....1

2000....1

1999....5

1998...3

1997....2

1996....1

1995...1

1994...1

1993...4

1992...2

1991...3

1990...1

1989...2

1988....1

1987...1

1986...1

1985... not listed so probably 0

1984...2

1983...not listed so probably 0

1982...1
US

Nope - the school resource officer may know the teacher, but this shit happens too fast for cops arriving on the scene to have any sort of accurate description of the perp, OR know the armed teacher.

And that is why MOST law enforcement associations oppose.

And yet, in actual mass public shootings where you actually had civiians with guns, out and in many cases having shot the attacker, the police never make that mistake.....it is a fantasy that you guys conjure up to scare people...

Gabby Giffords shooting......2 men, with concealed carry pistols out in the open.....nothing happened.

Black Lives Matter shooter in Texas.....he starts shooting at cops during a march where civilians have AR-15 rifles slung over their shoulders and pistols on their hips, the civilians got out of the way and the cops dealt with the black lives matter shooter.

The Texas church shooter....the NRA Instructor who shot the attacker...saving 26 lives and likely more, was at the scene of the killer when he pulled over, and waited for the police to arrive, pointing his AR-15 civilian rifle at the attackers car...when the police arrived, they provided the NRA instructor cover with their car so he could retreat...


Nothing you posted is born out by actual real world events.....

And more...

Defensive Gun Use of the Day: LA CCW Stops Mass Shooting - The Truth About Guns

On the afternoon of 31 January, 2016, some ten ATVs were getting gas at the intersection of Claiborne and Esplanade Avenues in New Orleans, Louisiana. Richard Macklin pulled up in a white Volvo. Police said Macklin became upset; the ATV riders were blocking the gas pumps. He pulled out a firearm and opened fire, sending more than a dozen rounds into the crowd. Three were wounded.


One of the wounded was armed . . .

He drew his legally carried weapon and fired at Macklin, hitting him in the head and stopping the attack. During the initial investigation, officers concluded that the person who fired back did so in legitimate defense of self and others

And these mass shootings stopped by armed civilians.......the cops did not shoot them..


Deputies Osceola pastor shot church janitor in self-defense ( 0 dead)

6 Shot At New Life Church Gunman 2 Churchgoers Dead - 7NEWS Denver TheDenverChannel.com ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

Remember This SC Concealed Carrier Stops Mass Shooting During Church Service. No Casualties. ( 0 dead)

**********

No guns: 41 dead

Sikh temple ( 6 dead, 4 wounded)

Charleston ( 9 dead)

Texas church shooting (26 dead)


Parishioners with guns: 2 dead

Osceola ( 0 dead )

New life ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

South Carolina shotgun guy ( 0 dead)

Countries with strong gun control don't have a mass shooting problem.

And that is a lie.....Britain, France, Norway, Belgium .....they have mass shootings, they have fewer, but that is due to culture and values not gun control...you know this, you lie about knowing it...you are a troll.

Sure they have them, very rarely. Having one every few years isn't a problem. We have them regularly. Only the US with the most guns and the weakest laws has them regularly. And they are getting worse.

The actual number of mass public shootings since 1982......

US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation


2017: 11 ( 5 according to the old standard)

2016....6

2015....4 ( obama's new standard....7)

2014....2 (4)

2013....5

2012....7

2011....3

2010....1

2009....4

2008....3

2007....4

2006....3

2005...2

2004....1

2003...1

2002 not listed so more than likely 0

2001....1

2000....1

1999....5

1998...3

1997....2

1996....1

1995...1

1994...1

1993...4

1992...2

1991...3

1990...1

1989...2

1988....1

1987...1

1986...1

1985... not listed so probably 0

1984...2

1983...not listed so probably 0

1982...1
US

And Orlando was the worst ever, oh wait then Vegas was quickly the worst ever. More people are dying and semi auto rifles with high capacity magazines are being used to kill them really quickly.

 

[2aguy]

And yet, in actual mass public shootings where you actually had civiians with guns, out and in many cases having shot the attacker, the police never make that mistake.....it is a fantasy that you guys conjure up to scare people...

Gabby Giffords shooting......2 men, with concealed carry pistols out in the open.....nothing happened.

Black Lives Matter shooter in Texas.....he starts shooting at cops during a march where civilians have AR-15 rifles slung over their shoulders and pistols on their hips, the civilians got out of the way and the cops dealt with the black lives matter shooter.

The Texas church shooter....the NRA Instructor who shot the attacker...saving 26 lives and likely more, was at the scene of the killer when he pulled over, and waited for the police to arrive, pointing his AR-15 civilian rifle at the attackers car...when the police arrived, they provided the NRA instructor cover with their car so he could retreat...


Nothing you posted is born out by actual real world events.....

And more...

Defensive Gun Use of the Day: LA CCW Stops Mass Shooting - The Truth About Guns

On the afternoon of 31 January, 2016, some ten ATVs were getting gas at the intersection of Claiborne and Esplanade Avenues in New Orleans, Louisiana. Richard Macklin pulled up in a white Volvo. Police said Macklin became upset; the ATV riders were blocking the gas pumps. He pulled out a firearm and opened fire, sending more than a dozen rounds into the crowd. Three were wounded.


One of the wounded was armed . . .

He drew his legally carried weapon and fired at Macklin, hitting him in the head and stopping the attack. During the initial investigation, officers concluded that the person who fired back did so in legitimate defense of self and others

And these mass shootings stopped by armed civilians.......the cops did not shoot them..


Deputies Osceola pastor shot church janitor in self-defense ( 0 dead)

6 Shot At New Life Church Gunman 2 Churchgoers Dead - 7NEWS Denver TheDenverChannel.com ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

Remember This SC Concealed Carrier Stops Mass Shooting During Church Service. No Casualties. ( 0 dead)

**********

No guns: 41 dead

Sikh temple ( 6 dead, 4 wounded)

Charleston ( 9 dead)

Texas church shooting (26 dead)


Parishioners with guns: 2 dead

Osceola ( 0 dead )

New life ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

South Carolina shotgun guy ( 0 dead)

Wow, did you strain anything cutting and pasting all this propaganda?

With regard to at least one of the concealed carriers at Giffords shooting there is THIS regarding the good guy with the gun who nearly shot the wrong dude who had actually just wrestled the gun away from Mr Loughner:

The man with the gun wasn't the shooter. He had wrested the gun away from the shooter. "Had you shot that guy, it would have been a big, fat mess," the interviewer pointed out.

Zamudio agreed:

"I was very lucky. Honestly, it was a matter of seconds. Two, maybe three seconds between when I came through the doorway and when I was laying on top of [the real shooter, holding him down. So, I mean, in that short amount of time I made a lot of really big decisions really fast. … I was really lucky."​

Armed Giffords hero nearly shot wrong man

It is a great example of why we need a ban on high capacity magazines:
Loughner proceeded to fire apparently randomly at other members of the crowd.[1][21] He reportedly used a 9×19mm Glock 19 semi-automatic pistol with a 33-round magazine.[22][23] A nearby store employee said he heard "15 to 20 gunshots".[24] Loughner stopped to reload, but dropped the loaded magazine from his pocket to the sidewalk, from where bystander Patricia Maisch grabbed it.[25] Another bystander clubbed the back of the assailant's head with a folding chair, injuring his elbow in the process, representing the fourteenth injury.

Fewer would have been shot if he needed to reload sooner. Look at that Ray, he dropped the magazine trying to reload.

You are such a moron....you know that he chose that isn't how it happened.....he shot a gun in the head, and walked up and past that guy...the guy who was shot was merely wounded instead of having his brains blown out, got up behind the guy and tackled him...the old lady laid on the ground as the killer approached hoping he wouldn't shoot her....and he was tackled within arms reach of her, so she reached out and grabbed the dropped magazine...

Dumb luck....but there was a concealed carry permit holder there ready to shoot the guy....

YOu know this story, and you pretend you don't...you are a troll...

The Tucson Atrocity: Joe Zamudio’s StoryAmerican Handgunner | American Handgunner

And from this...he wasn't tackled during a magazine change, he shot a guy, Bill Badger, and thought he killed him...he let badger get behind him and that is when he was tackled, then the old lady got the magazine after she laid on the ground in front of loughner trying to be a small target.....

Brain is wrong....

from the article...

And another point for you brain and for you bfgrn...the only reason they were able to wrestle him....just plain, stupid luck........otherwise, he would have reloaded and kept shooting...he missed this guy....



Joe adds, “Bill Badger was bleeding profusely from his head. He told me as Loughner was shooting everyone, (Loughner approached him and) pointed the gun at Bill’s head. Bill reflexively turned his head away, and when Loughner fired, the bullet took skin off down to the skull but did no real damage. Bill went down. When the gun stopped firing, Bill raised back up and Loughner was right in front of him. That was when the wrestling started.
Not rushing the guy during a magazine change brain, and Bfgrn...he thought the guy was dead....after he shot him...and let Bill Badger get behind him.......you are wrong again brain....

And what did the old lady do....

Woman Stopped Tucson Shooter From Reloading



She considered trying to run away, she said, but thought that would make her more of a target, so she laid down on the ground. But then something unexpected happened.

"Then he was next to me on the ground," she said. "The gentleman knocked him down.

"I kneeled over him. He was pulling a magazine [to reload] and I grabbed the magazine and secured that. I think the men got the gun, and I was able to get the magazine," she said.





The story as I put it in my post....



no one rushed the guy as he was changing magazines....

The shooter shot one guy in the head...but instead of killing him he grazed him and he fell to the ground. Thinking he had killed the guy, named Bill.....the shooter advanced up to where the guy had fallen.....the guy said he was able to then rise up and grab the shooter.....it was an instance of pure, dumb luck...had the shooter hit the guy in the head and killed him...no one would have stopped him...had he just stayed in place or moved in another direction, no one would have stopped him by charging him....

And the woman, who allegedly grabbed the magazine out of his hand...another myth.....

The woman saw the shooter advancing on her....she didn't think she could run away so she decided to just lay down and hoped he would just pass her by.....as she was laying on the ground, the guy who was shot in the head tackled the shooter...and they fell right in front of the woman.....so close she just had to extend her arm and grab his magazine........

another instance of dumb luck....

And...oh yeah....the magazine apparently malfunctioned...which is why he was changing it....he didn't run out of ammo...had the magazine not failed he would have kept shooting too....

the 3rd instance of dumb luck at the shooting....

And by the way....there were two concealed carry permit holders ready to shoot the guy....but by then he had been tackled and dealt with...no one mentions that, do they.....?

Here is the story from the actual participants....the video from ABC news has an interview with the guy who was shot in the head......

The Tucson Atrocity: Joe Zamudio’s StoryAmerican Handgunner | American Handgunner


from the article...


Joe adds, “Bill Badger was bleeding profusely from his head. He told me as Loughner was shooting everyone, (Loughner approached him and) pointed the gun at Bill’s head. Bill reflexively turned his head away, and when Loughner fired, the bullet took skin off down to the skull but did no real damage. Bill went down. When the gun stopped firing, Bill raised back up and Loughner was right in front of him. That was when the wrestling started.

----Aftermath/Afterthoughts
Joe was prepared to stop the killer with gunfire if he had to. He says today, “I was just truly blessed I didn’t have to pull my firearm. I didn’t have to go to that place




And what did the old lady do....

in this link there is a pop up video of the interview with the guy named Bill, who was shot in the head...but just grazed.....

Bill Badger, the guy who initially tackled him states the shooter was right next to him as he got up....he got up off of the ground and the shooter had walked right up close to him, allowing him to grab him....

Woman Stopped Tucson Shooter From Reloading



She considered trying to run away, she said, but thought that would make her more of a target, so she laid down on the ground. But then something unexpected happened.

"Then he was next to me on the ground," she said. "The gentleman knocked him down.

"I kneeled over him. He was pulling a magazine [to reload] and I grabbed the magazine and secured that. I think the men got the gun, and I was able to get the magazine," she said.



The Gifford's shooting was not stopped by heroic people rushing the shooter as he changed magzines because he ran out of bullets......it was stopped by 3 incidents of dumb luck that came together that allowed heroic people to take the guy down.....otherwise the concealed carrier would have shot him.....

He stopped firing and dropped his reload magazine.

Loughner proceeded to fire apparently randomly at other members of the crowd.[1][21] He reportedly used a 9×19mm Glock 19 semi-automatic pistol with a 33-round magazine.[22][23] A nearby store employee said he heard "15 to 20 gunshots".[24] Loughner stopped to reload, but dropped the loaded magazine from his pocket to the sidewalk, from where bystander Patricia Maisch grabbed it.[25] Another bystander clubbed the back of the assailant's head with a folding chair, injuring his elbow in the process, representing the fourteenth injury.

I just posted the entire story....which shows you were lying.......and you still post the lie....you are such a troll...

Joe adds, “Bill Badger was bleeding profusely from his head. He told me as Loughner was shooting everyone, (Loughner approached him and) pointed the gun at Bill’s head. Bill reflexively turned his head away, and when Loughner fired, the bullet took skin off down to the skull but did no real damage. Bill went down. When the gun stopped firing, Bill raised back up and Loughner was right in front of him. That was when the wrestling started.

------


Woman Stopped Tucson Shooter From Reloading



She considered trying to run away, she said, but thought that would make her more of a target, so she laid down on the ground. But then something unexpected happened.

"Then he was next to me on the ground," she said. "The gentleman knocked him down.

"I kneeled over him. He was pulling a magazine [to reload] and I grabbed the magazine and secured that. I think the men got the gun, and I was able to get the magazine," she said.

 

[Brain357]

Are you involved in criminal activity? If not you won't be attacked by several people, grow up.

Smaller magazines will allow you to practice your reload more often.

Again, the worst mass shootings have been done with high capacity magazines for a reason. They allow the shooter to fire many more rounds without having to reload. The are made for mass killing.

Agree - The AR is a weapon of war. Am I for banning them? Nope - too many out there. But they are indeed the weapon of choice for those hellbent on carnage and their ability to do so is well documented by ER physicians:

What I Saw Treating the Victims From Parkland Should Change the Debate on Guns

Tighten up the rules, databases, BG checks AND the ability of cops to take them away from kooks like Nikolas Cruz who had over 50 reports to law enforcement yet, in the Gunshine State - they were powerless.

Newtown - the same heart wrenching story:

High capacity magazines should be banned. Let them keep the guns.

Magazine capacity has nothing to do with mass shootings dumb ass...the last guy and the guy in Santa Barbara used 10 round magazines....you are such a moron...

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1525107116674926

Large-Capacity Magazines and the Casualty Counts in Mass Shootings: The Plausibility of Linkages by Gary Kleck :: SSRN

Do bans on large-capacity magazines (LCMs) for semiautomatic firearms have significant potential for reducing the number of deaths and injuries in mass shootings?
The most common rationale for an effect of LCM use is that they allow mass killers to fire many rounds without reloading.
LCMs are used is less than 1/3 of 1% of mass shootings.
News accounts of 23 shootings in which more than six people were killed or wounded and LCMs were used, occurring in the U.S. in 1994-2013, were examined.
There was only one incident in which the shooter may have been stopped by bystander intervention when he tried to reload.
In all of these 23 incidents the shooter possessed either multiple guns or multiple magazines, meaning that the shooter, even if denied LCMs, could have continued firing without significant interruption by either switching loaded guns or by changing smaller loaded magazines with only a 2-4 second delay for each magazine change.
Finally, the data indicate that mass shooters maintain slow enough rates of fire such that the time needed to reload would not increase the time between shots and thus the time available for prospective victims to escape.

--------

We did not employ the oft-used definition of “mass murder” as a homicide in which four or more victims were killed, because most of these involve just four to six victims (Duwe 2007), which could therefore have involved as few as six rounds fired, a number that shooters using even ordinary revolvers are capable of firing without reloading.

LCMs obviously cannot help shooters who fire no more rounds than could be fired without LCMs, so the inclusion of “nonaffectable” cases with only four to six victims would dilute the sample, reducing the percent of sample incidents in which an LCM might have affected the number of casualties.

Further, had we studied only homicides with four or more dead victims, drawn from the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Reports, we would have missed cases in which huge numbers of people were shot, and huge numbers of rounds were fired, but three or fewer of the victims died.


For example, in one widely publicized shooting carried out in Los Angeles on February 28, 1997, two bank robbers shot a total of 18 people - surely a mass shooting by any reasonable standard (Table 1).

Yet, because none of the people they shot died, this incident would not qualify as a mass murder (or even murder of any kind).

Exclusion of such incidents would bias the sample against the proposition that LCM use increases the number of victims by excluding incidents with large numbers of victims. We also excluded shootings in which more than six persons were shot over the entire course of the incident but shootings occurred in multiple locations with no more than six people shot in any one of the locations, and substantial periods of time intervened between episodes of shooting. An example is the series of killings committed by Rodrick Dantzler on July 7, 2011.

Once eligible incidents were identified, we searched through news accounts for details related to whether the use of LCMs could have influenced the casualty counts.

Specifically, we searched for

(1) the number of magazines in the shooter’s immediate possession,

(2) the capacity of the largest magazine,

(3) the number of guns in the shooter’s immediate possession during the incident,

(4) the types of guns possessed,

(5) whether the shooter reloaded during the incident,

(6) the number of rounds fired,

(7) the duration of the shooting from the first shot fired to the last, and (8) whether anyone intervened to stop the shooter.

Findings How Many Mass Shootings were Committed Using LCMs?

We identified 23 total incidents in which more than six people were shot at a single time and place in the U.S. from 1994 through 2013 and that were known to involve use of any magazines with capacities over ten rounds.


Table 1 summarizes key details of the LCMinvolved mass shootings relevant to the issues addressed in this paper.

(Table 1 about here) What fraction of all mass shootings involve LCMs?

There is no comprehensive listing of all mass shootings available for the entire 1994-2013 period, but the most extensive one currently available is at the Shootingtracker.com website, which only began its coverage in 2013.

-----

How Often Have Bystanders Intervened While a Mass Shooter Was Trying to Reload?

First, we consider the issue of how many times people have disrupted a mass shooting while the shooter was trying to load a detachable magazine into a semiautomatic gun.

Note that 16 it is irrelevant whether interveners have stopped a shooter while trying to reload some other type of gun, using other kinds of magazines, since we are addressing the potential significance of restrictions on the capacity of detachable magazines which are used only with semiautomatic firearms.

Thus, bystander intervention directed at shooters using other types of guns that take much longer to reload than a semiautomatic gun using detachable magazines could not provide any guidance as to the likelihood of bystander intervention when the shooter was using a semiautomatic gun equipped with detachable magazines that can be reloaded very quickly.

Prospective interveners would presumably be more likely to tackle a shooter who took a long time to reload than one who took only 2-4 seconds to do so.

Likewise, bystander interventions that occurred at a time when the shooter was not reloading (e.g., when he was struggling with a defective gun or magazine) are irrelevant, since that kind of intervention could occur regardless of what kinds of magazines or firearms the shooter was using.


It is the need to reload detachable magazines sooner and more often that differentiates shooters using smaller detachable magazines from those using larger ones.

For the period 1994-2013 inclusive, we identified three mass shooting incidents in which it was claimed that interveners disrupted the shooting by tackling the shooter while he was trying to reload.

In only one of the three cases, however, did interveners actually tackle the shooter while he may have been reloading a semiautomatic firearm.

In one of the incidents, the weapon in question was a shotgun that had to be reloaded by inserting one shotshell at a time into the weapon (Knoxville News Sentinel “Takedown of Alleged Shooter Recounted” July 29, 2008, regarding a shooting in Knoxville, TN on July 27, 2008), and so the incident is irrelevant to the effects of detachable LCMs.


In another incident, occurring in Springfield, Oregon on May 21, 1998, the shooter, Kip Kinkel, was using a semiautomatic gun, and he was tackled by bystanders, but not while he was reloading.

After exhausting the ammunition in one gun, the shooter started 17 firing another loaded gun, one of three firearms he had with him.

The first intervener was shot in the hand in the course of wresting this still-loaded gun away from the shooter (The (Portland) Oregonian, May 23, 1998).


The final case occurred in Tucson, AZ on January 8, 2011.

This is the shooting in which Jared Loughner attempted to assassinate Representative Gabrielle Giffords.

The shooter was using a semiautomatic firearm and was tackled by bystanders, purportedly while trying to reload a detachable magazine.

Even in this case, however, there were important uncertainties.

According to one news account, one bystander “grabbed a full magazine” that the shooter dropped, and two others helped subdue him (Associated Press, January 9, 2011).

It is not, however, clear whether this bystander intervention was facilitated because

(1) the shooter was reloading, or because

(2) the shooter stopping firing when his gun or magazine failed to function properly.

Eyewitness testimony, including that of the interveners, was inconsistent as to exactly why or how the intervention transpired in Giffords shooting.

One intervener insisted that he was sure the shooter had exhausted the ammunition in the first magazine (and thus was about to reload) because he saw the gun’s slide locked back – a condition he believed could only occur with this particular firearm after the last round is fired.

In fact, this can also happen when the guns jams, i.e. fails to chamber the next round (Salzgeber 2014; Morrill 2014).

Complicating matters further, the New York Times reported that the spring on the second magazine was broken, presumably rendering it incapable of functioning.

Their story’s headline and text characterized this mechanical failure as “perhaps the only fortunate event of the day” (New York Times “A Single, Terrifying Moment: Shots, Scuffle, Some Luck,” January 10, 2011, p. A1)

. If the New York Times account was accurate, the shooter would not have been able to continue shooting with that magazine even if no one had stopped him from loading it into his gun.

Detachable magazines of any size can malfunction, which would at least temporarily stop a prospective mass shooter from firing, and thereby provide an opportunity for bystanders to stop the shooter.
It is possible that the bystander intervention in the Tucson case could have occurred regardless of what size magazines the shooter possessed, since a shooter struggling with a defective small-capacity magazine would be just as vulnerable to disruption as one struggling with a defective large-capacity magazine. Thus, it remains unclear whether the shooter was reloading when the bystanders tackled him.
-----
The offenders in LCM-involved mass shootings were also known to have reloaded during 14 of the 23 (61%) incidents with magazine holding over 10 rounds.

The shooters were known to have not reloaded in another two of these 20 incidents and it could not be determined if they reloaded in the remaining seven incidents.

Thus, even if the shooters had been denied LCMs, we know that most of them definitely would have been able to reload smaller detachable magazines without interference from bystanders since they in fact did change magazines.

The fact that this percentage is less than 100% should not, however, be interpreted to mean that the shooters were unable to reload in the other nine incidents.

It is possible that the shooters could also have reloaded in many of these nine shootings, but chose not to do so, or did not need to do so in order to fire all the rounds they wanted to fire. This is consistent with the fact that there has been at most only one mass shootings in twenty years in which reloading a semiautomatic firearm might have been blocked by bystanders intervening and thereby stopping the shooter from doing all the shooting he wanted to do. All we know is that in two incidents the shooter did not reload, and news accounts of seven other incidents did not mention whether the offender reloaded.

----

For example, a story in the Hartford Courant about the Sandy Hook elementary school killings in 2012 was headlined “Shooter Paused, and Six Escaped,” the text asserting that as many as six children may have survived because the shooter paused to reload (December 23, 2012). ''

The author of the story, however, went on to concede that this was just a speculation by an unnamed source, and that it was also possible that some children simply escaped when the killer was shooting other children.

There was no reliable evidence that the pauses were due to the shooter reloading, rather than his guns jamming or the shooter simply choosing to pause his shooting while his gun was still loaded.

The plausibility of the “victims escape” rationale depends on the average rates of fire that shooters in mass shootings typically maintain.

If they fire very fast, the 2-4 seconds it takes to change box-type detachable magazines could produce a slowing of the rate of fire that the shooters otherwise would have maintained without the magazine changes, increasing the average time between rounds fired and potentially allowing more victims to escape during the betweenshot intervals.

On the other hand, if mass shooters fire their guns with the average interval between shots lasting more than 2-4 seconds, the pauses due to additional magazine changes would be no longer than the pauses the shooter typically took between shots even when not reloading.

In that case, there would be no more opportunity for potential victims to escape than there would have been without the additional magazine changes

-----

In sum, in nearly all LCM-involved mass shootings, the time it takes to reload a detachable magazine is no greater than the average time between shots that the shooter takes anyway when not reloading.

Consequently, there is no affirmative evidence that reloading detachable magazines slows mass shooters’ rates of fire, and thus no affirmative evidence that the number of victims who could escape the killers due to additional pauses in the shooting is increased by the shooter’s need to change magazines.

Funny, was Vegas and Orlando in this "study"?

 

[Brain357]

And yet, in actual mass public shootings where you actually had civiians with guns, out and in many cases having shot the attacker, the police never make that mistake.....it is a fantasy that you guys conjure up to scare people...

Gabby Giffords shooting......2 men, with concealed carry pistols out in the open.....nothing happened.

Black Lives Matter shooter in Texas.....he starts shooting at cops during a march where civilians have AR-15 rifles slung over their shoulders and pistols on their hips, the civilians got out of the way and the cops dealt with the black lives matter shooter.

The Texas church shooter....the NRA Instructor who shot the attacker...saving 26 lives and likely more, was at the scene of the killer when he pulled over, and waited for the police to arrive, pointing his AR-15 civilian rifle at the attackers car...when the police arrived, they provided the NRA instructor cover with their car so he could retreat...


Nothing you posted is born out by actual real world events.....

And more...

Defensive Gun Use of the Day: LA CCW Stops Mass Shooting - The Truth About Guns

On the afternoon of 31 January, 2016, some ten ATVs were getting gas at the intersection of Claiborne and Esplanade Avenues in New Orleans, Louisiana. Richard Macklin pulled up in a white Volvo. Police said Macklin became upset; the ATV riders were blocking the gas pumps. He pulled out a firearm and opened fire, sending more than a dozen rounds into the crowd. Three were wounded.


One of the wounded was armed . . .

He drew his legally carried weapon and fired at Macklin, hitting him in the head and stopping the attack. During the initial investigation, officers concluded that the person who fired back did so in legitimate defense of self and others

And these mass shootings stopped by armed civilians.......the cops did not shoot them..


Deputies Osceola pastor shot church janitor in self-defense ( 0 dead)

6 Shot At New Life Church Gunman 2 Churchgoers Dead - 7NEWS Denver TheDenverChannel.com ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

Remember This SC Concealed Carrier Stops Mass Shooting During Church Service. No Casualties. ( 0 dead)

**********

No guns: 41 dead

Sikh temple ( 6 dead, 4 wounded)

Charleston ( 9 dead)

Texas church shooting (26 dead)


Parishioners with guns: 2 dead

Osceola ( 0 dead )

New life ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

South Carolina shotgun guy ( 0 dead)

Wow, did you strain anything cutting and pasting all this propaganda?

With regard to at least one of the concealed carriers at Giffords shooting there is THIS regarding the good guy with the gun who nearly shot the wrong dude who had actually just wrestled the gun away from Mr Loughner:

The man with the gun wasn't the shooter. He had wrested the gun away from the shooter. "Had you shot that guy, it would have been a big, fat mess," the interviewer pointed out.

Zamudio agreed:

"I was very lucky. Honestly, it was a matter of seconds. Two, maybe three seconds between when I came through the doorway and when I was laying on top of [the real shooter, holding him down. So, I mean, in that short amount of time I made a lot of really big decisions really fast. … I was really lucky."​

Armed Giffords hero nearly shot wrong man

It is a great example of why we need a ban on high capacity magazines:
Loughner proceeded to fire apparently randomly at other members of the crowd.[1][21] He reportedly used a 9×19mm Glock 19 semi-automatic pistol with a 33-round magazine.[22][23] A nearby store employee said he heard "15 to 20 gunshots".[24] Loughner stopped to reload, but dropped the loaded magazine from his pocket to the sidewalk, from where bystander Patricia Maisch grabbed it.[25] Another bystander clubbed the back of the assailant's head with a folding chair, injuring his elbow in the process, representing the fourteenth injury.

Fewer would have been shot if he needed to reload sooner. Look at that Ray, he dropped the magazine trying to reload.

You are such a moron....you know that he chose that isn't how it happened.....he shot a gun in the head, and walked up and past that guy...the guy who was shot was merely wounded instead of having his brains blown out, got up behind the guy and tackled him...the old lady laid on the ground as the killer approached hoping he wouldn't shoot her....and he was tackled within arms reach of her, so she reached out and grabbed the dropped magazine...

Dumb luck....but there was a concealed carry permit holder there ready to shoot the guy....

YOu know this story, and you pretend you don't...you are a troll...

The Tucson Atrocity: Joe Zamudio’s StoryAmerican Handgunner | American Handgunner

And from this...he wasn't tackled during a magazine change, he shot a guy, Bill Badger, and thought he killed him...he let badger get behind him and that is when he was tackled, then the old lady got the magazine after she laid on the ground in front of loughner trying to be a small target.....

Brain is wrong....

from the article...

And another point for you brain and for you bfgrn...the only reason they were able to wrestle him....just plain, stupid luck........otherwise, he would have reloaded and kept shooting...he missed this guy....



Joe adds, “Bill Badger was bleeding profusely from his head. He told me as Loughner was shooting everyone, (Loughner approached him and) pointed the gun at Bill’s head. Bill reflexively turned his head away, and when Loughner fired, the bullet took skin off down to the skull but did no real damage. Bill went down. When the gun stopped firing, Bill raised back up and Loughner was right in front of him. That was when the wrestling started.
Not rushing the guy during a magazine change brain, and Bfgrn...he thought the guy was dead....after he shot him...and let Bill Badger get behind him.......you are wrong again brain....

And what did the old lady do....

Woman Stopped Tucson Shooter From Reloading



She considered trying to run away, she said, but thought that would make her more of a target, so she laid down on the ground. But then something unexpected happened.

"Then he was next to me on the ground," she said. "The gentleman knocked him down.

"I kneeled over him. He was pulling a magazine [to reload] and I grabbed the magazine and secured that. I think the men got the gun, and I was able to get the magazine," she said.





The story as I put it in my post....



no one rushed the guy as he was changing magazines....

The shooter shot one guy in the head...but instead of killing him he grazed him and he fell to the ground. Thinking he had killed the guy, named Bill.....the shooter advanced up to where the guy had fallen.....the guy said he was able to then rise up and grab the shooter.....it was an instance of pure, dumb luck...had the shooter hit the guy in the head and killed him...no one would have stopped him...had he just stayed in place or moved in another direction, no one would have stopped him by charging him....

And the woman, who allegedly grabbed the magazine out of his hand...another myth.....

The woman saw the shooter advancing on her....she didn't think she could run away so she decided to just lay down and hoped he would just pass her by.....as she was laying on the ground, the guy who was shot in the head tackled the shooter...and they fell right in front of the woman.....so close she just had to extend her arm and grab his magazine........

another instance of dumb luck....

And...oh yeah....the magazine apparently malfunctioned...which is why he was changing it....he didn't run out of ammo...had the magazine not failed he would have kept shooting too....

the 3rd instance of dumb luck at the shooting....

And by the way....there were two concealed carry permit holders ready to shoot the guy....but by then he had been tackled and dealt with...no one mentions that, do they.....?

Here is the story from the actual participants....the video from ABC news has an interview with the guy who was shot in the head......

The Tucson Atrocity: Joe Zamudio’s StoryAmerican Handgunner | American Handgunner


from the article...


Joe adds, “Bill Badger was bleeding profusely from his head. He told me as Loughner was shooting everyone, (Loughner approached him and) pointed the gun at Bill’s head. Bill reflexively turned his head away, and when Loughner fired, the bullet took skin off down to the skull but did no real damage. Bill went down. When the gun stopped firing, Bill raised back up and Loughner was right in front of him. That was when the wrestling started.

----Aftermath/Afterthoughts
Joe was prepared to stop the killer with gunfire if he had to. He says today, “I was just truly blessed I didn’t have to pull my firearm. I didn’t have to go to that place




And what did the old lady do....

in this link there is a pop up video of the interview with the guy named Bill, who was shot in the head...but just grazed.....

Bill Badger, the guy who initially tackled him states the shooter was right next to him as he got up....he got up off of the ground and the shooter had walked right up close to him, allowing him to grab him....

Woman Stopped Tucson Shooter From Reloading



She considered trying to run away, she said, but thought that would make her more of a target, so she laid down on the ground. But then something unexpected happened.

"Then he was next to me on the ground," she said. "The gentleman knocked him down.

"I kneeled over him. He was pulling a magazine [to reload] and I grabbed the magazine and secured that. I think the men got the gun, and I was able to get the magazine," she said.



The Gifford's shooting was not stopped by heroic people rushing the shooter as he changed magzines because he ran out of bullets......it was stopped by 3 incidents of dumb luck that came together that allowed heroic people to take the guy down.....otherwise the concealed carrier would have shot him.....

He stopped firing and dropped his reload magazine.

Loughner proceeded to fire apparently randomly at other members of the crowd.[1][21] He reportedly used a 9×19mm Glock 19 semi-automatic pistol with a 33-round magazine.[22][23] A nearby store employee said he heard "15 to 20 gunshots".[24] Loughner stopped to reload, but dropped the loaded magazine from his pocket to the sidewalk, from where bystander Patricia Maisch grabbed it.[25] Another bystander clubbed the back of the assailant's head with a folding chair, injuring his elbow in the process, representing the fourteenth injury.

I just posted the entire story....which shows you were lying.......and you still post the lie....you are such a troll...

Joe adds, “Bill Badger was bleeding profusely from his head. He told me as Loughner was shooting everyone, (Loughner approached him and) pointed the gun at Bill’s head. Bill reflexively turned his head away, and when Loughner fired, the bullet took skin off down to the skull but did no real damage. Bill went down. When the gun stopped firing, Bill raised back up and Loughner was right in front of him. That was when the wrestling started.

------


Woman Stopped Tucson Shooter From Reloading



She considered trying to run away, she said, but thought that would make her more of a target, so she laid down on the ground. But then something unexpected happened.

"Then he was next to me on the ground," she said. "The gentleman knocked him down.

"I kneeled over him. He was pulling a magazine [to reload] and I grabbed the magazine and secured that. I think the men got the gun, and I was able to get the magazine," she said.

yes he stopped firing when he dropped his magazine trying to reload.

 

[2aguy]

And yet, in actual mass public shootings where you actually had civiians with guns, out and in many cases having shot the attacker, the police never make that mistake.....it is a fantasy that you guys conjure up to scare people...

Gabby Giffords shooting......2 men, with concealed carry pistols out in the open.....nothing happened.

Black Lives Matter shooter in Texas.....he starts shooting at cops during a march where civilians have AR-15 rifles slung over their shoulders and pistols on their hips, the civilians got out of the way and the cops dealt with the black lives matter shooter.

The Texas church shooter....the NRA Instructor who shot the attacker...saving 26 lives and likely more, was at the scene of the killer when he pulled over, and waited for the police to arrive, pointing his AR-15 civilian rifle at the attackers car...when the police arrived, they provided the NRA instructor cover with their car so he could retreat...


Nothing you posted is born out by actual real world events.....

And more...

Defensive Gun Use of the Day: LA CCW Stops Mass Shooting - The Truth About Guns

On the afternoon of 31 January, 2016, some ten ATVs were getting gas at the intersection of Claiborne and Esplanade Avenues in New Orleans, Louisiana. Richard Macklin pulled up in a white Volvo. Police said Macklin became upset; the ATV riders were blocking the gas pumps. He pulled out a firearm and opened fire, sending more than a dozen rounds into the crowd. Three were wounded.


One of the wounded was armed . . .

He drew his legally carried weapon and fired at Macklin, hitting him in the head and stopping the attack. During the initial investigation, officers concluded that the person who fired back did so in legitimate defense of self and others

And these mass shootings stopped by armed civilians.......the cops did not shoot them..


Deputies Osceola pastor shot church janitor in self-defense ( 0 dead)

6 Shot At New Life Church Gunman 2 Churchgoers Dead - 7NEWS Denver TheDenverChannel.com ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

Remember This SC Concealed Carrier Stops Mass Shooting During Church Service. No Casualties. ( 0 dead)

**********

No guns: 41 dead

Sikh temple ( 6 dead, 4 wounded)

Charleston ( 9 dead)

Texas church shooting (26 dead)


Parishioners with guns: 2 dead

Osceola ( 0 dead )

New life ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

South Carolina shotgun guy ( 0 dead)

Countries with strong gun control don't have a mass shooting problem.

And that is a lie.....Britain, France, Norway, Belgium .....they have mass shootings, they have fewer, but that is due to culture and values not gun control...you know this, you lie about knowing it...you are a troll.

Sure they have them, very rarely. Having one every few years isn't a problem. We have them regularly. Only the US with the most guns and the weakest laws has them regularly. And they are getting worse.

The actual number of mass public shootings since 1982......

US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation


2017: 11 ( 5 according to the old standard)

2016....6

2015....4 ( obama's new standard....7)

2014....2 (4)

2013....5

2012....7

2011....3

2010....1

2009....4

2008....3

2007....4

2006....3

2005...2

2004....1

2003...1

2002 not listed so more than likely 0

2001....1

2000....1

1999....5

1998...3

1997....2

1996....1

1995...1

1994...1

1993...4

1992...2

1991...3

1990...1

1989...2

1988....1

1987...1

1986...1

1985... not listed so probably 0

1984...2

1983...not listed so probably 0

1982...1
US

And yet, in actual mass public shootings where you actually had civiians with guns, out and in many cases having shot the attacker, the police never make that mistake.....it is a fantasy that you guys conjure up to scare people...

Gabby Giffords shooting......2 men, with concealed carry pistols out in the open.....nothing happened.

Black Lives Matter shooter in Texas.....he starts shooting at cops during a march where civilians have AR-15 rifles slung over their shoulders and pistols on their hips, the civilians got out of the way and the cops dealt with the black lives matter shooter.

The Texas church shooter....the NRA Instructor who shot the attacker...saving 26 lives and likely more, was at the scene of the killer when he pulled over, and waited for the police to arrive, pointing his AR-15 civilian rifle at the attackers car...when the police arrived, they provided the NRA instructor cover with their car so he could retreat...


Nothing you posted is born out by actual real world events.....

And more...

Defensive Gun Use of the Day: LA CCW Stops Mass Shooting - The Truth About Guns

On the afternoon of 31 January, 2016, some ten ATVs were getting gas at the intersection of Claiborne and Esplanade Avenues in New Orleans, Louisiana. Richard Macklin pulled up in a white Volvo. Police said Macklin became upset; the ATV riders were blocking the gas pumps. He pulled out a firearm and opened fire, sending more than a dozen rounds into the crowd. Three were wounded.


One of the wounded was armed . . .

He drew his legally carried weapon and fired at Macklin, hitting him in the head and stopping the attack. During the initial investigation, officers concluded that the person who fired back did so in legitimate defense of self and others

And these mass shootings stopped by armed civilians.......the cops did not shoot them..


Deputies Osceola pastor shot church janitor in self-defense ( 0 dead)

6 Shot At New Life Church Gunman 2 Churchgoers Dead - 7NEWS Denver TheDenverChannel.com ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

Remember This SC Concealed Carrier Stops Mass Shooting During Church Service. No Casualties. ( 0 dead)

**********

No guns: 41 dead

Sikh temple ( 6 dead, 4 wounded)

Charleston ( 9 dead)

Texas church shooting (26 dead)


Parishioners with guns: 2 dead

Osceola ( 0 dead )

New life ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

South Carolina shotgun guy ( 0 dead)

Countries with strong gun control don't have a mass shooting problem.

And that is a lie.....Britain, France, Norway, Belgium .....they have mass shootings, they have fewer, but that is due to culture and values not gun control...you know this, you lie about knowing it...you are a troll.

Sure they have them, very rarely. Having one every few years isn't a problem. We have them regularly. Only the US with the most guns and the weakest laws has them regularly. And they are getting worse.

The actual number of mass public shootings since 1982......

US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation


2017: 11 ( 5 according to the old standard)

2016....6

2015....4 ( obama's new standard....7)

2014....2 (4)

2013....5

2012....7

2011....3

2010....1

2009....4

2008....3

2007....4

2006....3

2005...2

2004....1

2003...1

2002 not listed so more than likely 0

2001....1

2000....1

1999....5

1998...3

1997....2

1996....1

1995...1

1994...1

1993...4

1992...2

1991...3

1990...1

1989...2

1988....1

1987...1

1986...1

1985... not listed so probably 0

1984...2

1983...not listed so probably 0

1982...1
US

And Orlando was the worst ever, oh wait then Vegas was quickly the worst ever. More people are dying and semi auto rifles with high capacity magazines are being used to kill them really quickly.

Orlando was a gun free zone.....and if you heard the witnesses from inside the club...had they been allowed to carry guns they could have stopped the shooter.....watch the program Active Shooter......on Showtime......they tell us that the shooter was vulnerable at all times to a civilian with a gun...but it was a gun free zone....so those people died defenseless...

 

[Brain357]

And yet, in actual mass public shootings where you actually had civiians with guns, out and in many cases having shot the attacker, the police never make that mistake.....it is a fantasy that you guys conjure up to scare people...

Gabby Giffords shooting......2 men, with concealed carry pistols out in the open.....nothing happened.

Black Lives Matter shooter in Texas.....he starts shooting at cops during a march where civilians have AR-15 rifles slung over their shoulders and pistols on their hips, the civilians got out of the way and the cops dealt with the black lives matter shooter.

The Texas church shooter....the NRA Instructor who shot the attacker...saving 26 lives and likely more, was at the scene of the killer when he pulled over, and waited for the police to arrive, pointing his AR-15 civilian rifle at the attackers car...when the police arrived, they provided the NRA instructor cover with their car so he could retreat...


Nothing you posted is born out by actual real world events.....

And more...

Defensive Gun Use of the Day: LA CCW Stops Mass Shooting - The Truth About Guns

On the afternoon of 31 January, 2016, some ten ATVs were getting gas at the intersection of Claiborne and Esplanade Avenues in New Orleans, Louisiana. Richard Macklin pulled up in a white Volvo. Police said Macklin became upset; the ATV riders were blocking the gas pumps. He pulled out a firearm and opened fire, sending more than a dozen rounds into the crowd. Three were wounded.


One of the wounded was armed . . .

He drew his legally carried weapon and fired at Macklin, hitting him in the head and stopping the attack. During the initial investigation, officers concluded that the person who fired back did so in legitimate defense of self and others

And these mass shootings stopped by armed civilians.......the cops did not shoot them..


Deputies Osceola pastor shot church janitor in self-defense ( 0 dead)

6 Shot At New Life Church Gunman 2 Churchgoers Dead - 7NEWS Denver TheDenverChannel.com ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

Remember This SC Concealed Carrier Stops Mass Shooting During Church Service. No Casualties. ( 0 dead)

**********

No guns: 41 dead

Sikh temple ( 6 dead, 4 wounded)

Charleston ( 9 dead)

Texas church shooting (26 dead)


Parishioners with guns: 2 dead

Osceola ( 0 dead )

New life ( 2 dead, 3 wounded)

South Carolina shotgun guy ( 0 dead)

Wow, did you strain anything cutting and pasting all this propaganda?

With regard to at least one of the concealed carriers at Giffords shooting there is THIS regarding the good guy with the gun who nearly shot the wrong dude who had actually just wrestled the gun away from Mr Loughner:

The man with the gun wasn't the shooter. He had wrested the gun away from the shooter. "Had you shot that guy, it would have been a big, fat mess," the interviewer pointed out.

Zamudio agreed:

"I was very lucky. Honestly, it was a matter of seconds. Two, maybe three seconds between when I came through the doorway and when I was laying on top of [the real shooter, holding him down. So, I mean, in that short amount of time I made a lot of really big decisions really fast. … I was really lucky."​

Armed Giffords hero nearly shot wrong man

It is a great example of why we need a ban on high capacity magazines:
Loughner proceeded to fire apparently randomly at other members of the crowd.[1][21] He reportedly used a 9×19mm Glock 19 semi-automatic pistol with a 33-round magazine.[22][23] A nearby store employee said he heard "15 to 20 gunshots".[24] Loughner stopped to reload, but dropped the loaded magazine from his pocket to the sidewalk, from where bystander Patricia Maisch grabbed it.[25] Another bystander clubbed the back of the assailant's head with a folding chair, injuring his elbow in the process, representing the fourteenth injury.

Fewer would have been shot if he needed to reload sooner. Look at that Ray, he dropped the magazine trying to reload.

You are such a moron....you know that he chose that isn't how it happened.....he shot a gun in the head, and walked up and past that guy...the guy who was shot was merely wounded instead of having his brains blown out, got up behind the guy and tackled him...the old lady laid on the ground as the killer approached hoping he wouldn't shoot her....and he was tackled within arms reach of her, so she reached out and grabbed the dropped magazine...

Dumb luck....but there was a concealed carry permit holder there ready to shoot the guy....

YOu know this story, and you pretend you don't...you are a troll...

The Tucson Atrocity: Joe Zamudio’s StoryAmerican Handgunner | American Handgunner

And from this...he wasn't tackled during a magazine change, he shot a guy, Bill Badger, and thought he killed him...he let badger get behind him and that is when he was tackled, then the old lady got the magazine after she laid on the ground in front of loughner trying to be a small target.....

Brain is wrong....

from the article...

And another point for you brain and for you bfgrn...the only reason they were able to wrestle him....just plain, stupid luck........otherwise, he would have reloaded and kept shooting...he missed this guy....



Joe adds, “Bill Badger was bleeding profusely from his head. He told me as Loughner was shooting everyone, (Loughner approached him and) pointed the gun at Bill’s head. Bill reflexively turned his head away, and when Loughner fired, the bullet took skin off down to the skull but did no real damage. Bill went down. When the gun stopped firing, Bill raised back up and Loughner was right in front of him. That was when the wrestling started.
Not rushing the guy during a magazine change brain, and Bfgrn...he thought the guy was dead....after he shot him...and let Bill Badger get behind him.......you are wrong again brain....

And what did the old lady do....

Woman Stopped Tucson Shooter From Reloading



She considered trying to run away, she said, but thought that would make her more of a target, so she laid down on the ground. But then something unexpected happened.

"Then he was next to me on the ground," she said. "The gentleman knocked him down.

"I kneeled over him. He was pulling a magazine [to reload] and I grabbed the magazine and secured that. I think the men got the gun, and I was able to get the magazine," she said.





The story as I put it in my post....



no one rushed the guy as he was changing magazines....

The shooter shot one guy in the head...but instead of killing him he grazed him and he fell to the ground. Thinking he had killed the guy, named Bill.....the shooter advanced up to where the guy had fallen.....the guy said he was able to then rise up and grab the shooter.....it was an instance of pure, dumb luck...had the shooter hit the guy in the head and killed him...no one would have stopped him...had he just stayed in place or moved in another direction, no one would have stopped him by charging him....

And the woman, who allegedly grabbed the magazine out of his hand...another myth.....

The woman saw the shooter advancing on her....she didn't think she could run away so she decided to just lay down and hoped he would just pass her by.....as she was laying on the ground, the guy who was shot in the head tackled the shooter...and they fell right in front of the woman.....so close she just had to extend her arm and grab his magazine........

another instance of dumb luck....

And...oh yeah....the magazine apparently malfunctioned...which is why he was changing it....he didn't run out of ammo...had the magazine not failed he would have kept shooting too....

the 3rd instance of dumb luck at the shooting....

And by the way....there were two concealed carry permit holders ready to shoot the guy....but by then he had been tackled and dealt with...no one mentions that, do they.....?

Here is the story from the actual participants....the video from ABC news has an interview with the guy who was shot in the head......

The Tucson Atrocity: Joe Zamudio’s StoryAmerican Handgunner | American Handgunner


from the article...


Joe adds, “Bill Badger was bleeding profusely from his head. He told me as Loughner was shooting everyone, (Loughner approached him and) pointed the gun at Bill’s head. Bill reflexively turned his head away, and when Loughner fired, the bullet took skin off down to the skull but did no real damage. Bill went down. When the gun stopped firing, Bill raised back up and Loughner was right in front of him. That was when the wrestling started.

----Aftermath/Afterthoughts
Joe was prepared to stop the killer with gunfire if he had to. He says today, “I was just truly blessed I didn’t have to pull my firearm. I didn’t have to go to that place




And what did the old lady do....

in this link there is a pop up video of the interview with the guy named Bill, who was shot in the head...but just grazed.....

Bill Badger, the guy who initially tackled him states the shooter was right next to him as he got up....he got up off of the ground and the shooter had walked right up close to him, allowing him to grab him....

Woman Stopped Tucson Shooter From Reloading



She considered trying to run away, she said, but thought that would make her more of a target, so she laid down on the ground. But then something unexpected happened.

"Then he was next to me on the ground," she said. "The gentleman knocked him down.

"I kneeled over him. He was pulling a magazine [to reload] and I grabbed the magazine and secured that. I think the men got the gun, and I was able to get the magazine," she said.



The Gifford's shooting was not stopped by heroic people rushing the shooter as he changed magzines because he ran out of bullets......it was stopped by 3 incidents of dumb luck that came together that allowed heroic people to take the guy down.....otherwise the concealed carrier would have shot him.....

He stopped firing and dropped his reload magazine.

Loughner proceeded to fire apparently randomly at other members of the crowd.[1][21] He reportedly used a 9×19mm Glock 19 semi-automatic pistol with a 33-round magazine.[22][23] A nearby store employee said he heard "15 to 20 gunshots".[24] Loughner stopped to reload, but dropped the loaded magazine from his pocket to the sidewalk, from where bystander Patricia Maisch grabbed it.[25] Another bystander clubbed the back of the assailant's head with a folding chair, injuring his elbow in the process, representing the fourteenth injury.

I just posted the entire story....which shows you were lying.......and you still post the lie....you are such a troll...

Joe adds, “Bill Badger was bleeding profusely from his head. He told me as Loughner was shooting everyone, (Loughner approached him and) pointed the gun at Bill’s head. Bill reflexively turned his head away, and when Loughner fired, the bullet took skin off down to the skull but did no real damage. Bill went down. When the gun stopped firing, Bill raised back up and Loughner was right in front of him. That was when the wrestling started.

------


Woman Stopped Tucson Shooter From Reloading



She considered trying to run away, she said, but thought that would make her more of a target, so she laid down on the ground. But then something unexpected happened.

"Then he was next to me on the ground," she said. "The gentleman knocked him down.

"I kneeled over him. He was pulling a magazine [to reload] and I grabbed the magazine and secured that. I think the men got the gun, and I was able to get the magazine," she said.

Patricia Maisch looks like a grandmother, but she is being hailed as a hero today for helping to stop alleged Tucson shooter Jared Loughner by wrestling away a fresh magazine of bullets as he tried to reload.

If only he had to reload sooner...

 

[2aguy]

Wow, did you strain anything cutting and pasting all this propaganda?

With regard to at least one of the concealed carriers at Giffords shooting there is THIS regarding the good guy with the gun who nearly shot the wrong dude who had actually just wrestled the gun away from Mr Loughner:

The man with the gun wasn't the shooter. He had wrested the gun away from the shooter. "Had you shot that guy, it would have been a big, fat mess," the interviewer pointed out.

Zamudio agreed:

"I was very lucky. Honestly, it was a matter of seconds. Two, maybe three seconds between when I came through the doorway and when I was laying on top of [the real shooter, holding him down. So, I mean, in that short amount of time I made a lot of really big decisions really fast. … I was really lucky."​

Armed Giffords hero nearly shot wrong man

It is a great example of why we need a ban on high capacity magazines:
Loughner proceeded to fire apparently randomly at other members of the crowd.[1][21] He reportedly used a 9×19mm Glock 19 semi-automatic pistol with a 33-round magazine.[22][23] A nearby store employee said he heard "15 to 20 gunshots".[24] Loughner stopped to reload, but dropped the loaded magazine from his pocket to the sidewalk, from where bystander Patricia Maisch grabbed it.[25] Another bystander clubbed the back of the assailant's head with a folding chair, injuring his elbow in the process, representing the fourteenth injury.

Fewer would have been shot if he needed to reload sooner. Look at that Ray, he dropped the magazine trying to reload.

You are such a moron....you know that he chose that isn't how it happened.....he shot a gun in the head, and walked up and past that guy...the guy who was shot was merely wounded instead of having his brains blown out, got up behind the guy and tackled him...the old lady laid on the ground as the killer approached hoping he wouldn't shoot her....and he was tackled within arms reach of her, so she reached out and grabbed the dropped magazine...

Dumb luck....but there was a concealed carry permit holder there ready to shoot the guy....

YOu know this story, and you pretend you don't...you are a troll...

The Tucson Atrocity: Joe Zamudio’s StoryAmerican Handgunner | American Handgunner

And from this...he wasn't tackled during a magazine change, he shot a guy, Bill Badger, and thought he killed him...he let badger get behind him and that is when he was tackled, then the old lady got the magazine after she laid on the ground in front of loughner trying to be a small target.....

Brain is wrong....

from the article...

And another point for you brain and for you bfgrn...the only reason they were able to wrestle him....just plain, stupid luck........otherwise, he would have reloaded and kept shooting...he missed this guy....



Joe adds, “Bill Badger was bleeding profusely from his head. He told me as Loughner was shooting everyone, (Loughner approached him and) pointed the gun at Bill’s head. Bill reflexively turned his head away, and when Loughner fired, the bullet took skin off down to the skull but did no real damage. Bill went down. When the gun stopped firing, Bill raised back up and Loughner was right in front of him. That was when the wrestling started.
Not rushing the guy during a magazine change brain, and Bfgrn...he thought the guy was dead....after he shot him...and let Bill Badger get behind him.......you are wrong again brain....

And what did the old lady do....

Woman Stopped Tucson Shooter From Reloading



She considered trying to run away, she said, but thought that would make her more of a target, so she laid down on the ground. But then something unexpected happened.

"Then he was next to me on the ground," she said. "The gentleman knocked him down.

"I kneeled over him. He was pulling a magazine [to reload] and I grabbed the magazine and secured that. I think the men got the gun, and I was able to get the magazine," she said.





The story as I put it in my post....



no one rushed the guy as he was changing magazines....

The shooter shot one guy in the head...but instead of killing him he grazed him and he fell to the ground. Thinking he had killed the guy, named Bill.....the shooter advanced up to where the guy had fallen.....the guy said he was able to then rise up and grab the shooter.....it was an instance of pure, dumb luck...had the shooter hit the guy in the head and killed him...no one would have stopped him...had he just stayed in place or moved in another direction, no one would have stopped him by charging him....

And the woman, who allegedly grabbed the magazine out of his hand...another myth.....

The woman saw the shooter advancing on her....she didn't think she could run away so she decided to just lay down and hoped he would just pass her by.....as she was laying on the ground, the guy who was shot in the head tackled the shooter...and they fell right in front of the woman.....so close she just had to extend her arm and grab his magazine........

another instance of dumb luck....

And...oh yeah....the magazine apparently malfunctioned...which is why he was changing it....he didn't run out of ammo...had the magazine not failed he would have kept shooting too....

the 3rd instance of dumb luck at the shooting....

And by the way....there were two concealed carry permit holders ready to shoot the guy....but by then he had been tackled and dealt with...no one mentions that, do they.....?

Here is the story from the actual participants....the video from ABC news has an interview with the guy who was shot in the head......

The Tucson Atrocity: Joe Zamudio’s StoryAmerican Handgunner | American Handgunner


from the article...


Joe adds, “Bill Badger was bleeding profusely from his head. He told me as Loughner was shooting everyone, (Loughner approached him and) pointed the gun at Bill’s head. Bill reflexively turned his head away, and when Loughner fired, the bullet took skin off down to the skull but did no real damage. Bill went down. When the gun stopped firing, Bill raised back up and Loughner was right in front of him. That was when the wrestling started.

----Aftermath/Afterthoughts
Joe was prepared to stop the killer with gunfire if he had to. He says today, “I was just truly blessed I didn’t have to pull my firearm. I didn’t have to go to that place




And what did the old lady do....

in this link there is a pop up video of the interview with the guy named Bill, who was shot in the head...but just grazed.....

Bill Badger, the guy who initially tackled him states the shooter was right next to him as he got up....he got up off of the ground and the shooter had walked right up close to him, allowing him to grab him....

Woman Stopped Tucson Shooter From Reloading



She considered trying to run away, she said, but thought that would make her more of a target, so she laid down on the ground. But then something unexpected happened.

"Then he was next to me on the ground," she said. "The gentleman knocked him down.

"I kneeled over him. He was pulling a magazine [to reload] and I grabbed the magazine and secured that. I think the men got the gun, and I was able to get the magazine," she said.



The Gifford's shooting was not stopped by heroic people rushing the shooter as he changed magzines because he ran out of bullets......it was stopped by 3 incidents of dumb luck that came together that allowed heroic people to take the guy down.....otherwise the concealed carrier would have shot him.....

He stopped firing and dropped his reload magazine.

Loughner proceeded to fire apparently randomly at other members of the crowd.[1][21] He reportedly used a 9×19mm Glock 19 semi-automatic pistol with a 33-round magazine.[22][23] A nearby store employee said he heard "15 to 20 gunshots".[24] Loughner stopped to reload, but dropped the loaded magazine from his pocket to the sidewalk, from where bystander Patricia Maisch grabbed it.[25] Another bystander clubbed the back of the assailant's head with a folding chair, injuring his elbow in the process, representing the fourteenth injury.

I just posted the entire story....which shows you were lying.......and you still post the lie....you are such a troll...

Joe adds, “Bill Badger was bleeding profusely from his head. He told me as Loughner was shooting everyone, (Loughner approached him and) pointed the gun at Bill’s head. Bill reflexively turned his head away, and when Loughner fired, the bullet took skin off down to the skull but did no real damage. Bill went down. When the gun stopped firing, Bill raised back up and Loughner was right in front of him. That was when the wrestling started.

------


Woman Stopped Tucson Shooter From Reloading



She considered trying to run away, she said, but thought that would make her more of a target, so she laid down on the ground. But then something unexpected happened.

"Then he was next to me on the ground," she said. "The gentleman knocked him down.

"I kneeled over him. He was pulling a magazine [to reload] and I grabbed the magazine and secured that. I think the men got the gun, and I was able to get the magazine," she said.

yes he stopped firing when he dropped his magazine trying to reload.

Troll....it was dumb luck, had he actually killed Bill "badger" he would have kept shooting...

Joe adds, “Bill Badger was bleeding profusely from his head. He told me as Loughner was shooting everyone, (Loughner approached him and) pointed the gun at Bill’s head. Bill reflexively turned his head away, and when Loughner fired, the bullet took skin off down to the skull but did no real damage. Bill went down. When the gun stopped firing, Bill raised back up and Loughner was right in front of him. That was when the wrestling started.

 

[Brain357]

Countries with strong gun control don't have a mass shooting problem.

And that is a lie.....Britain, France, Norway, Belgium .....they have mass shootings, they have fewer, but that is due to culture and values not gun control...you know this, you lie about knowing it...you are a troll.

Sure they have them, very rarely. Having one every few years isn't a problem. We have them regularly. Only the US with the most guns and the weakest laws has them regularly. And they are getting worse.

The actual number of mass public shootings since 1982......

US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation


2017: 11 ( 5 according to the old standard)

2016....6

2015....4 ( obama's new standard....7)

2014....2 (4)

2013....5

2012....7

2011....3

2010....1

2009....4

2008....3

2007....4

2006....3

2005...2

2004....1

2003...1

2002 not listed so more than likely 0

2001....1

2000....1

1999....5

1998...3

1997....2

1996....1

1995...1

1994...1

1993...4

1992...2

1991...3

1990...1

1989...2

1988....1

1987...1

1986...1

1985... not listed so probably 0

1984...2

1983...not listed so probably 0

1982...1
US

Countries with strong gun control don't have a mass shooting problem.

And that is a lie.....Britain, France, Norway, Belgium .....they have mass shootings, they have fewer, but that is due to culture and values not gun control...you know this, you lie about knowing it...you are a troll.

Sure they have them, very rarely. Having one every few years isn't a problem. We have them regularly. Only the US with the most guns and the weakest laws has them regularly. And they are getting worse.

The actual number of mass public shootings since 1982......

US Mass Shootings, 1982-2015: Data From Mother Jones' Investigation


2017: 11 ( 5 according to the old standard)

2016....6

2015....4 ( obama's new standard....7)

2014....2 (4)

2013....5

2012....7

2011....3

2010....1

2009....4

2008....3

2007....4

2006....3

2005...2

2004....1

2003...1

2002 not listed so more than likely 0

2001....1

2000....1

1999....5

1998...3

1997....2

1996....1

1995...1

1994...1

1993...4

1992...2

1991...3

1990...1

1989...2

1988....1

1987...1

1986...1

1985... not listed so probably 0

1984...2

1983...not listed so probably 0

1982...1
US

And Orlando was the worst ever, oh wait then Vegas was quickly the worst ever. More people are dying and semi auto rifles with high capacity magazines are being used to kill them really quickly.

Orlando was a gun free zone.....and if you heard the witnesses from inside the club...had they been allowed to carry guns they could have stopped the shooter.....watch the program Active Shooter......on Showtime......they tell us that the shooter was vulnerable at all times to a civilian with a gun...but it was a gun free zone....so those people died defenseless...

They had armed security. He was outgunned because the shooter had a semi auto rifle with high capacity magazines. These need to be banned.

 

[2aguy]

Wow, did you strain anything cutting and pasting all this propaganda?

With regard to at least one of the concealed carriers at Giffords shooting there is THIS regarding the good guy with the gun who nearly shot the wrong dude who had actually just wrestled the gun away from Mr Loughner:

The man with the gun wasn't the shooter. He had wrested the gun away from the shooter. "Had you shot that guy, it would have been a big, fat mess," the interviewer pointed out.

Zamudio agreed:

"I was very lucky. Honestly, it was a matter of seconds. Two, maybe three seconds between when I came through the doorway and when I was laying on top of [the real shooter, holding him down. So, I mean, in that short amount of time I made a lot of really big decisions really fast. … I was really lucky."​

Armed Giffords hero nearly shot wrong man

It is a great example of why we need a ban on high capacity magazines:
Loughner proceeded to fire apparently randomly at other members of the crowd.[1][21] He reportedly used a 9×19mm Glock 19 semi-automatic pistol with a 33-round magazine.[22][23] A nearby store employee said he heard "15 to 20 gunshots".[24] Loughner stopped to reload, but dropped the loaded magazine from his pocket to the sidewalk, from where bystander Patricia Maisch grabbed it.[25] Another bystander clubbed the back of the assailant's head with a folding chair, injuring his elbow in the process, representing the fourteenth injury.

Fewer would have been shot if he needed to reload sooner. Look at that Ray, he dropped the magazine trying to reload.

You are such a moron....you know that he chose that isn't how it happened.....he shot a gun in the head, and walked up and past that guy...the guy who was shot was merely wounded instead of having his brains blown out, got up behind the guy and tackled him...the old lady laid on the ground as the killer approached hoping he wouldn't shoot her....and he was tackled within arms reach of her, so she reached out and grabbed the dropped magazine...

Dumb luck....but there was a concealed carry permit holder there ready to shoot the guy....

YOu know this story, and you pretend you don't...you are a troll...

The Tucson Atrocity: Joe Zamudio’s StoryAmerican Handgunner | American Handgunner

And from this...he wasn't tackled during a magazine change, he shot a guy, Bill Badger, and thought he killed him...he let badger get behind him and that is when he was tackled, then the old lady got the magazine after she laid on the ground in front of loughner trying to be a small target.....

Brain is wrong....

from the article...

And another point for you brain and for you bfgrn...the only reason they were able to wrestle him....just plain, stupid luck........otherwise, he would have reloaded and kept shooting...he missed this guy....



Joe adds, “Bill Badger was bleeding profusely from his head. He told me as Loughner was shooting everyone, (Loughner approached him and) pointed the gun at Bill’s head. Bill reflexively turned his head away, and when Loughner fired, the bullet took skin off down to the skull but did no real damage. Bill went down. When the gun stopped firing, Bill raised back up and Loughner was right in front of him. That was when the wrestling started.
Not rushing the guy during a magazine change brain, and Bfgrn...he thought the guy was dead....after he shot him...and let Bill Badger get behind him.......you are wrong again brain....

And what did the old lady do....

Woman Stopped Tucson Shooter From Reloading



She considered trying to run away, she said, but thought that would make her more of a target, so she laid down on the ground. But then something unexpected happened.

"Then he was next to me on the ground," she said. "The gentleman knocked him down.

"I kneeled over him. He was pulling a magazine [to reload] and I grabbed the magazine and secured that. I think the men got the gun, and I was able to get the magazine," she said.





The story as I put it in my post....



no one rushed the guy as he was changing magazines....

The shooter shot one guy in the head...but instead of killing him he grazed him and he fell to the ground. Thinking he had killed the guy, named Bill.....the shooter advanced up to where the guy had fallen.....the guy said he was able to then rise up and grab the shooter.....it was an instance of pure, dumb luck...had the shooter hit the guy in the head and killed him...no one would have stopped him...had he just stayed in place or moved in another direction, no one would have stopped him by charging him....

And the woman, who allegedly grabbed the magazine out of his hand...another myth.....

The woman saw the shooter advancing on her....she didn't think she could run away so she decided to just lay down and hoped he would just pass her by.....as she was laying on the ground, the guy who was shot in the head tackled the shooter...and they fell right in front of the woman.....so close she just had to extend her arm and grab his magazine........

another instance of dumb luck....

And...oh yeah....the magazine apparently malfunctioned...which is why he was changing it....he didn't run out of ammo...had the magazine not failed he would have kept shooting too....

the 3rd instance of dumb luck at the shooting....

And by the way....there were two concealed carry permit holders ready to shoot the guy....but by then he had been tackled and dealt with...no one mentions that, do they.....?

Here is the story from the actual participants....the video from ABC news has an interview with the guy who was shot in the head......

The Tucson Atrocity: Joe Zamudio’s StoryAmerican Handgunner | American Handgunner


from the article...


Joe adds, “Bill Badger was bleeding profusely from his head. He told me as Loughner was shooting everyone, (Loughner approached him and) pointed the gun at Bill’s head. Bill reflexively turned his head away, and when Loughner fired, the bullet took skin off down to the skull but did no real damage. Bill went down. When the gun stopped firing, Bill raised back up and Loughner was right in front of him. That was when the wrestling started.

----Aftermath/Afterthoughts
Joe was prepared to stop the killer with gunfire if he had to. He says today, “I was just truly blessed I didn’t have to pull my firearm. I didn’t have to go to that place




And what did the old lady do....

in this link there is a pop up video of the interview with the guy named Bill, who was shot in the head...but just grazed.....

Bill Badger, the guy who initially tackled him states the shooter was right next to him as he got up....he got up off of the ground and the shooter had walked right up close to him, allowing him to grab him....

Woman Stopped Tucson Shooter From Reloading



She considered trying to run away, she said, but thought that would make her more of a target, so she laid down on the ground. But then something unexpected happened.

"Then he was next to me on the ground," she said. "The gentleman knocked him down.

"I kneeled over him. He was pulling a magazine [to reload] and I grabbed the magazine and secured that. I think the men got the gun, and I was able to get the magazine," she said.



The Gifford's shooting was not stopped by heroic people rushing the shooter as he changed magzines because he ran out of bullets......it was stopped by 3 incidents of dumb luck that came together that allowed heroic people to take the guy down.....otherwise the concealed carrier would have shot him.....

He stopped firing and dropped his reload magazine.

Loughner proceeded to fire apparently randomly at other members of the crowd.[1][21] He reportedly used a 9×19mm Glock 19 semi-automatic pistol with a 33-round magazine.[22][23] A nearby store employee said he heard "15 to 20 gunshots".[24] Loughner stopped to reload, but dropped the loaded magazine from his pocket to the sidewalk, from where bystander Patricia Maisch grabbed it.[25] Another bystander clubbed the back of the assailant's head with a folding chair, injuring his elbow in the process, representing the fourteenth injury.

I just posted the entire story....which shows you were lying.......and you still post the lie....you are such a troll...

Joe adds, “Bill Badger was bleeding profusely from his head. He told me as Loughner was shooting everyone, (Loughner approached him and) pointed the gun at Bill’s head. Bill reflexively turned his head away, and when Loughner fired, the bullet took skin off down to the skull but did no real damage. Bill went down. When the gun stopped firing, Bill raised back up and Loughner was right in front of him. That was when the wrestling started.

------


Woman Stopped Tucson Shooter From Reloading



She considered trying to run away, she said, but thought that would make her more of a target, so she laid down on the ground. But then something unexpected happened.

"Then he was next to me on the ground," she said. "The gentleman knocked him down.

"I kneeled over him. He was pulling a magazine [to reload] and I grabbed the magazine and secured that. I think the men got the gun, and I was able to get the magazine," she said.

Patricia Maisch looks like a grandmother, but she is being hailed as a hero today for helping to stop alleged Tucson shooter Jared Loughner by wrestling away a fresh magazine of bullets as he tried to reload.

If only he had to reload sooner...

It was just posted....how she laid down to die and he fell right in front of her, within arms reach and she just reached out...dumb luck...again....


Woman Stopped Tucson Shooter From Reloading



She considered trying to run away, she said, but thought that would make her more of a target, so she laid down on the ground. But then something unexpected happened.

"Then he was next to me on the ground," she said. "The gentleman knocked him down.

"I kneeled over him. He was pulling a magazine [to reload] and I grabbed the magazine and secured that. I think the men got the gun, and I was able to get the magazine," she said.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Are you involved in criminal activity? If not you won't be attacked by several people, grow up.

Smaller magazines will allow you to practice your reload more often.

Again, the worst mass shootings have been done with high capacity magazines for a reason. They allow the shooter to fire many more rounds without having to reload. The are made for mass killing.

Agree - The AR is a weapon of war. Am I for banning them? Nope - too many out there. But they are indeed the weapon of choice for those hellbent on carnage and their ability to do so is well documented by ER physicians:

What I Saw Treating the Victims From Parkland Should Change the Debate on Guns

Tighten up the rules, databases, BG checks AND the ability of cops to take them away from kooks like Nikolas Cruz who had over 50 reports to law enforcement yet, in the Gunshine State - they were powerless.

Newtown - the same heart wrenching story:

High capacity magazines should be banned. Let them keep the guns.

And that would solve what exactly????

 

[Brain357]

It is a great example of why we need a ban on high capacity magazines:
Loughner proceeded to fire apparently randomly at other members of the crowd.[1][21] He reportedly used a 9×19mm Glock 19 semi-automatic pistol with a 33-round magazine.[22][23] A nearby store employee said he heard "15 to 20 gunshots".[24] Loughner stopped to reload, but dropped the loaded magazine from his pocket to the sidewalk, from where bystander Patricia Maisch grabbed it.[25] Another bystander clubbed the back of the assailant's head with a folding chair, injuring his elbow in the process, representing the fourteenth injury.

Fewer would have been shot if he needed to reload sooner. Look at that Ray, he dropped the magazine trying to reload.

You are such a moron....you know that he chose that isn't how it happened.....he shot a gun in the head, and walked up and past that guy...the guy who was shot was merely wounded instead of having his brains blown out, got up behind the guy and tackled him...the old lady laid on the ground as the killer approached hoping he wouldn't shoot her....and he was tackled within arms reach of her, so she reached out and grabbed the dropped magazine...

Dumb luck....but there was a concealed carry permit holder there ready to shoot the guy....

YOu know this story, and you pretend you don't...you are a troll...

The Tucson Atrocity: Joe Zamudio’s StoryAmerican Handgunner | American Handgunner

And from this...he wasn't tackled during a magazine change, he shot a guy, Bill Badger, and thought he killed him...he let badger get behind him and that is when he was tackled, then the old lady got the magazine after she laid on the ground in front of loughner trying to be a small target.....

Brain is wrong....

from the article...

And another point for you brain and for you bfgrn...the only reason they were able to wrestle him....just plain, stupid luck........otherwise, he would have reloaded and kept shooting...he missed this guy....



Joe adds, “Bill Badger was bleeding profusely from his head. He told me as Loughner was shooting everyone, (Loughner approached him and) pointed the gun at Bill’s head. Bill reflexively turned his head away, and when Loughner fired, the bullet took skin off down to the skull but did no real damage. Bill went down. When the gun stopped firing, Bill raised back up and Loughner was right in front of him. That was when the wrestling started.
Not rushing the guy during a magazine change brain, and Bfgrn...he thought the guy was dead....after he shot him...and let Bill Badger get behind him.......you are wrong again brain....

And what did the old lady do....

Woman Stopped Tucson Shooter From Reloading



She considered trying to run away, she said, but thought that would make her more of a target, so she laid down on the ground. But then something unexpected happened.

"Then he was next to me on the ground," she said. "The gentleman knocked him down.

"I kneeled over him. He was pulling a magazine [to reload] and I grabbed the magazine and secured that. I think the men got the gun, and I was able to get the magazine," she said.





The story as I put it in my post....



no one rushed the guy as he was changing magazines....

The shooter shot one guy in the head...but instead of killing him he grazed him and he fell to the ground. Thinking he had killed the guy, named Bill.....the shooter advanced up to where the guy had fallen.....the guy said he was able to then rise up and grab the shooter.....it was an instance of pure, dumb luck...had the shooter hit the guy in the head and killed him...no one would have stopped him...had he just stayed in place or moved in another direction, no one would have stopped him by charging him....

And the woman, who allegedly grabbed the magazine out of his hand...another myth.....

The woman saw the shooter advancing on her....she didn't think she could run away so she decided to just lay down and hoped he would just pass her by.....as she was laying on the ground, the guy who was shot in the head tackled the shooter...and they fell right in front of the woman.....so close she just had to extend her arm and grab his magazine........

another instance of dumb luck....

And...oh yeah....the magazine apparently malfunctioned...which is why he was changing it....he didn't run out of ammo...had the magazine not failed he would have kept shooting too....

the 3rd instance of dumb luck at the shooting....

And by the way....there were two concealed carry permit holders ready to shoot the guy....but by then he had been tackled and dealt with...no one mentions that, do they.....?

Here is the story from the actual participants....the video from ABC news has an interview with the guy who was shot in the head......

The Tucson Atrocity: Joe Zamudio’s StoryAmerican Handgunner | American Handgunner


from the article...


Joe adds, “Bill Badger was bleeding profusely from his head. He told me as Loughner was shooting everyone, (Loughner approached him and) pointed the gun at Bill’s head. Bill reflexively turned his head away, and when Loughner fired, the bullet took skin off down to the skull but did no real damage. Bill went down. When the gun stopped firing, Bill raised back up and Loughner was right in front of him. That was when the wrestling started.

----Aftermath/Afterthoughts
Joe was prepared to stop the killer with gunfire if he had to. He says today, “I was just truly blessed I didn’t have to pull my firearm. I didn’t have to go to that place




And what did the old lady do....

in this link there is a pop up video of the interview with the guy named Bill, who was shot in the head...but just grazed.....

Bill Badger, the guy who initially tackled him states the shooter was right next to him as he got up....he got up off of the ground and the shooter had walked right up close to him, allowing him to grab him....

Woman Stopped Tucson Shooter From Reloading



She considered trying to run away, she said, but thought that would make her more of a target, so she laid down on the ground. But then something unexpected happened.

"Then he was next to me on the ground," she said. "The gentleman knocked him down.

"I kneeled over him. He was pulling a magazine [to reload] and I grabbed the magazine and secured that. I think the men got the gun, and I was able to get the magazine," she said.



The Gifford's shooting was not stopped by heroic people rushing the shooter as he changed magzines because he ran out of bullets......it was stopped by 3 incidents of dumb luck that came together that allowed heroic people to take the guy down.....otherwise the concealed carrier would have shot him.....

He stopped firing and dropped his reload magazine.

Loughner proceeded to fire apparently randomly at other members of the crowd.[1][21] He reportedly used a 9×19mm Glock 19 semi-automatic pistol with a 33-round magazine.[22][23] A nearby store employee said he heard "15 to 20 gunshots".[24] Loughner stopped to reload, but dropped the loaded magazine from his pocket to the sidewalk, from where bystander Patricia Maisch grabbed it.[25] Another bystander clubbed the back of the assailant's head with a folding chair, injuring his elbow in the process, representing the fourteenth injury.

I just posted the entire story....which shows you were lying.......and you still post the lie....you are such a troll...

Joe adds, “Bill Badger was bleeding profusely from his head. He told me as Loughner was shooting everyone, (Loughner approached him and) pointed the gun at Bill’s head. Bill reflexively turned his head away, and when Loughner fired, the bullet took skin off down to the skull but did no real damage. Bill went down. When the gun stopped firing, Bill raised back up and Loughner was right in front of him. That was when the wrestling started.

------


Woman Stopped Tucson Shooter From Reloading



She considered trying to run away, she said, but thought that would make her more of a target, so she laid down on the ground. But then something unexpected happened.

"Then he was next to me on the ground," she said. "The gentleman knocked him down.

"I kneeled over him. He was pulling a magazine [to reload] and I grabbed the magazine and secured that. I think the men got the gun, and I was able to get the magazine," she said.

yes he stopped firing when he dropped his magazine trying to reload.

Troll....it was dumb luck, had he actually killed Bill "badger" he would have kept shooting...

Joe adds, “Bill Badger was bleeding profusely from his head. He told me as Loughner was shooting everyone, (Loughner approached him and) pointed the gun at Bill’s head. Bill reflexively turned his head away, and when Loughner fired, the bullet took skin off down to the skull but did no real damage. Bill went down. When the gun stopped firing, Bill raised back up and Loughner was right in front of him. That was when the wrestling started.

And you want as many people killed as possible...

He was stopped at reload. Had he needed to reload sooner there would be fewer shot.

 

[2aguy]

Are you involved in criminal activity? If not you won't be attacked by several people, grow up.

Smaller magazines will allow you to practice your reload more often.

Again, the worst mass shootings have been done with high capacity magazines for a reason. They allow the shooter to fire many more rounds without having to reload. The are made for mass killing.

Agree - The AR is a weapon of war. Am I for banning them? Nope - too many out there. But they are indeed the weapon of choice for those hellbent on carnage and their ability to do so is well documented by ER physicians:

What I Saw Treating the Victims From Parkland Should Change the Debate on Guns

Tighten up the rules, databases, BG checks AND the ability of cops to take them away from kooks like Nikolas Cruz who had over 50 reports to law enforcement yet, in the Gunshine State - they were powerless.

Newtown - the same heart wrenching story:

High capacity magazines should be banned. Let them keep the guns.

Magazine capacity has nothing to do with mass shootings dumb ass...the last guy and the guy in Santa Barbara used 10 round magazines....you are such a moron...

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1525107116674926

Large-Capacity Magazines and the Casualty Counts in Mass Shootings: The Plausibility of Linkages by Gary Kleck :: SSRN

Do bans on large-capacity magazines (LCMs) for semiautomatic firearms have significant potential for reducing the number of deaths and injuries in mass shootings?
The most common rationale for an effect of LCM use is that they allow mass killers to fire many rounds without reloading.
LCMs are used is less than 1/3 of 1% of mass shootings.
News accounts of 23 shootings in which more than six people were killed or wounded and LCMs were used, occurring in the U.S. in 1994-2013, were examined.
There was only one incident in which the shooter may have been stopped by bystander intervention when he tried to reload.
In all of these 23 incidents the shooter possessed either multiple guns or multiple magazines, meaning that the shooter, even if denied LCMs, could have continued firing without significant interruption by either switching loaded guns or by changing smaller loaded magazines with only a 2-4 second delay for each magazine change.
Finally, the data indicate that mass shooters maintain slow enough rates of fire such that the time needed to reload would not increase the time between shots and thus the time available for prospective victims to escape.

--------

We did not employ the oft-used definition of “mass murder” as a homicide in which four or more victims were killed, because most of these involve just four to six victims (Duwe 2007), which could therefore have involved as few as six rounds fired, a number that shooters using even ordinary revolvers are capable of firing without reloading.

LCMs obviously cannot help shooters who fire no more rounds than could be fired without LCMs, so the inclusion of “nonaffectable” cases with only four to six victims would dilute the sample, reducing the percent of sample incidents in which an LCM might have affected the number of casualties.

Further, had we studied only homicides with four or more dead victims, drawn from the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Reports, we would have missed cases in which huge numbers of people were shot, and huge numbers of rounds were fired, but three or fewer of the victims died.


For example, in one widely publicized shooting carried out in Los Angeles on February 28, 1997, two bank robbers shot a total of 18 people - surely a mass shooting by any reasonable standard (Table 1).

Yet, because none of the people they shot died, this incident would not qualify as a mass murder (or even murder of any kind).

Exclusion of such incidents would bias the sample against the proposition that LCM use increases the number of victims by excluding incidents with large numbers of victims. We also excluded shootings in which more than six persons were shot over the entire course of the incident but shootings occurred in multiple locations with no more than six people shot in any one of the locations, and substantial periods of time intervened between episodes of shooting. An example is the series of killings committed by Rodrick Dantzler on July 7, 2011.

Once eligible incidents were identified, we searched through news accounts for details related to whether the use of LCMs could have influenced the casualty counts.

Specifically, we searched for

(1) the number of magazines in the shooter’s immediate possession,

(2) the capacity of the largest magazine,

(3) the number of guns in the shooter’s immediate possession during the incident,

(4) the types of guns possessed,

(5) whether the shooter reloaded during the incident,

(6) the number of rounds fired,

(7) the duration of the shooting from the first shot fired to the last, and (8) whether anyone intervened to stop the shooter.

Findings How Many Mass Shootings were Committed Using LCMs?

We identified 23 total incidents in which more than six people were shot at a single time and place in the U.S. from 1994 through 2013 and that were known to involve use of any magazines with capacities over ten rounds.


Table 1 summarizes key details of the LCMinvolved mass shootings relevant to the issues addressed in this paper.

(Table 1 about here) What fraction of all mass shootings involve LCMs?

There is no comprehensive listing of all mass shootings available for the entire 1994-2013 period, but the most extensive one currently available is at the Shootingtracker.com website, which only began its coverage in 2013.

-----

How Often Have Bystanders Intervened While a Mass Shooter Was Trying to Reload?

First, we consider the issue of how many times people have disrupted a mass shooting while the shooter was trying to load a detachable magazine into a semiautomatic gun.

Note that 16 it is irrelevant whether interveners have stopped a shooter while trying to reload some other type of gun, using other kinds of magazines, since we are addressing the potential significance of restrictions on the capacity of detachable magazines which are used only with semiautomatic firearms.

Thus, bystander intervention directed at shooters using other types of guns that take much longer to reload than a semiautomatic gun using detachable magazines could not provide any guidance as to the likelihood of bystander intervention when the shooter was using a semiautomatic gun equipped with detachable magazines that can be reloaded very quickly.

Prospective interveners would presumably be more likely to tackle a shooter who took a long time to reload than one who took only 2-4 seconds to do so.

Likewise, bystander interventions that occurred at a time when the shooter was not reloading (e.g., when he was struggling with a defective gun or magazine) are irrelevant, since that kind of intervention could occur regardless of what kinds of magazines or firearms the shooter was using.


It is the need to reload detachable magazines sooner and more often that differentiates shooters using smaller detachable magazines from those using larger ones.

For the period 1994-2013 inclusive, we identified three mass shooting incidents in which it was claimed that interveners disrupted the shooting by tackling the shooter while he was trying to reload.

In only one of the three cases, however, did interveners actually tackle the shooter while he may have been reloading a semiautomatic firearm.

In one of the incidents, the weapon in question was a shotgun that had to be reloaded by inserting one shotshell at a time into the weapon (Knoxville News Sentinel “Takedown of Alleged Shooter Recounted” July 29, 2008, regarding a shooting in Knoxville, TN on July 27, 2008), and so the incident is irrelevant to the effects of detachable LCMs.


In another incident, occurring in Springfield, Oregon on May 21, 1998, the shooter, Kip Kinkel, was using a semiautomatic gun, and he was tackled by bystanders, but not while he was reloading.

After exhausting the ammunition in one gun, the shooter started 17 firing another loaded gun, one of three firearms he had with him.

The first intervener was shot in the hand in the course of wresting this still-loaded gun away from the shooter (The (Portland) Oregonian, May 23, 1998).


The final case occurred in Tucson, AZ on January 8, 2011.

This is the shooting in which Jared Loughner attempted to assassinate Representative Gabrielle Giffords.

The shooter was using a semiautomatic firearm and was tackled by bystanders, purportedly while trying to reload a detachable magazine.

Even in this case, however, there were important uncertainties.

According to one news account, one bystander “grabbed a full magazine” that the shooter dropped, and two others helped subdue him (Associated Press, January 9, 2011).

It is not, however, clear whether this bystander intervention was facilitated because

(1) the shooter was reloading, or because

(2) the shooter stopping firing when his gun or magazine failed to function properly.

Eyewitness testimony, including that of the interveners, was inconsistent as to exactly why or how the intervention transpired in Giffords shooting.

One intervener insisted that he was sure the shooter had exhausted the ammunition in the first magazine (and thus was about to reload) because he saw the gun’s slide locked back – a condition he believed could only occur with this particular firearm after the last round is fired.

In fact, this can also happen when the guns jams, i.e. fails to chamber the next round (Salzgeber 2014; Morrill 2014).

Complicating matters further, the New York Times reported that the spring on the second magazine was broken, presumably rendering it incapable of functioning.

Their story’s headline and text characterized this mechanical failure as “perhaps the only fortunate event of the day” (New York Times “A Single, Terrifying Moment: Shots, Scuffle, Some Luck,” January 10, 2011, p. A1)

. If the New York Times account was accurate, the shooter would not have been able to continue shooting with that magazine even if no one had stopped him from loading it into his gun.

Detachable magazines of any size can malfunction, which would at least temporarily stop a prospective mass shooter from firing, and thereby provide an opportunity for bystanders to stop the shooter.
It is possible that the bystander intervention in the Tucson case could have occurred regardless of what size magazines the shooter possessed, since a shooter struggling with a defective small-capacity magazine would be just as vulnerable to disruption as one struggling with a defective large-capacity magazine. Thus, it remains unclear whether the shooter was reloading when the bystanders tackled him.
-----
The offenders in LCM-involved mass shootings were also known to have reloaded during 14 of the 23 (61%) incidents with magazine holding over 10 rounds.

The shooters were known to have not reloaded in another two of these 20 incidents and it could not be determined if they reloaded in the remaining seven incidents.

Thus, even if the shooters had been denied LCMs, we know that most of them definitely would have been able to reload smaller detachable magazines without interference from bystanders since they in fact did change magazines.

The fact that this percentage is less than 100% should not, however, be interpreted to mean that the shooters were unable to reload in the other nine incidents.

It is possible that the shooters could also have reloaded in many of these nine shootings, but chose not to do so, or did not need to do so in order to fire all the rounds they wanted to fire. This is consistent with the fact that there has been at most only one mass shootings in twenty years in which reloading a semiautomatic firearm might have been blocked by bystanders intervening and thereby stopping the shooter from doing all the shooting he wanted to do. All we know is that in two incidents the shooter did not reload, and news accounts of seven other incidents did not mention whether the offender reloaded.

----

For example, a story in the Hartford Courant about the Sandy Hook elementary school killings in 2012 was headlined “Shooter Paused, and Six Escaped,” the text asserting that as many as six children may have survived because the shooter paused to reload (December 23, 2012). ''

The author of the story, however, went on to concede that this was just a speculation by an unnamed source, and that it was also possible that some children simply escaped when the killer was shooting other children.

There was no reliable evidence that the pauses were due to the shooter reloading, rather than his guns jamming or the shooter simply choosing to pause his shooting while his gun was still loaded.

The plausibility of the “victims escape” rationale depends on the average rates of fire that shooters in mass shootings typically maintain.

If they fire very fast, the 2-4 seconds it takes to change box-type detachable magazines could produce a slowing of the rate of fire that the shooters otherwise would have maintained without the magazine changes, increasing the average time between rounds fired and potentially allowing more victims to escape during the betweenshot intervals.

On the other hand, if mass shooters fire their guns with the average interval between shots lasting more than 2-4 seconds, the pauses due to additional magazine changes would be no longer than the pauses the shooter typically took between shots even when not reloading.

In that case, there would be no more opportunity for potential victims to escape than there would have been without the additional magazine changes

-----

In sum, in nearly all LCM-involved mass shootings, the time it takes to reload a detachable magazine is no greater than the average time between shots that the shooter takes anyway when not reloading.

Consequently, there is no affirmative evidence that reloading detachable magazines slows mass shooters’ rates of fire, and thus no affirmative evidence that the number of victims who could escape the killers due to additional pauses in the shooting is increased by the shooter’s need to change magazines.

Funny, was Vegas and Orlando in this "study"?

Yes...the actual research shows you are a moron.....

And Vegas....used 2 rifles to murder 58 people.....

Orlando, used a rifle, shotgun and pistol to murder 49 people in a gun free zone...

The muslim terrorist in Nice, France used a rental truck and murdered 86 people in 5 minutes....

Cars are deadlier than rifles...

 

[Brain357]

Are you involved in criminal activity? If not you won't be attacked by several people, grow up.

Smaller magazines will allow you to practice your reload more often.

Again, the worst mass shootings have been done with high capacity magazines for a reason. They allow the shooter to fire many more rounds without having to reload. The are made for mass killing.

Agree - The AR is a weapon of war. Am I for banning them? Nope - too many out there. But they are indeed the weapon of choice for those hellbent on carnage and their ability to do so is well documented by ER physicians:

What I Saw Treating the Victims From Parkland Should Change the Debate on Guns

Tighten up the rules, databases, BG checks AND the ability of cops to take them away from kooks like Nikolas Cruz who had over 50 reports to law enforcement yet, in the Gunshine State - they were powerless.

Newtown - the same heart wrenching story:

High capacity magazines should be banned. Let them keep the guns.

And that would solve what exactly????

Fewer people shot. The police would not be so outgunned. Look at Tucson, shooter stopped at reload.

 

[Brain357]

Are you involved in criminal activity? If not you won't be attacked by several people, grow up.

Smaller magazines will allow you to practice your reload more often.

Again, the worst mass shootings have been done with high capacity magazines for a reason. They allow the shooter to fire many more rounds without having to reload. The are made for mass killing.

Agree - The AR is a weapon of war. Am I for banning them? Nope - too many out there. But they are indeed the weapon of choice for those hellbent on carnage and their ability to do so is well documented by ER physicians:

What I Saw Treating the Victims From Parkland Should Change the Debate on Guns

Tighten up the rules, databases, BG checks AND the ability of cops to take them away from kooks like Nikolas Cruz who had over 50 reports to law enforcement yet, in the Gunshine State - they were powerless.

Newtown - the same heart wrenching story:

High capacity magazines should be banned. Let them keep the guns.

Magazine capacity has nothing to do with mass shootings dumb ass...the last guy and the guy in Santa Barbara used 10 round magazines....you are such a moron...

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1525107116674926

Large-Capacity Magazines and the Casualty Counts in Mass Shootings: The Plausibility of Linkages by Gary Kleck :: SSRN

Do bans on large-capacity magazines (LCMs) for semiautomatic firearms have significant potential for reducing the number of deaths and injuries in mass shootings?
The most common rationale for an effect of LCM use is that they allow mass killers to fire many rounds without reloading.
LCMs are used is less than 1/3 of 1% of mass shootings.
News accounts of 23 shootings in which more than six people were killed or wounded and LCMs were used, occurring in the U.S. in 1994-2013, were examined.
There was only one incident in which the shooter may have been stopped by bystander intervention when he tried to reload.
In all of these 23 incidents the shooter possessed either multiple guns or multiple magazines, meaning that the shooter, even if denied LCMs, could have continued firing without significant interruption by either switching loaded guns or by changing smaller loaded magazines with only a 2-4 second delay for each magazine change.
Finally, the data indicate that mass shooters maintain slow enough rates of fire such that the time needed to reload would not increase the time between shots and thus the time available for prospective victims to escape.

--------

We did not employ the oft-used definition of “mass murder” as a homicide in which four or more victims were killed, because most of these involve just four to six victims (Duwe 2007), which could therefore have involved as few as six rounds fired, a number that shooters using even ordinary revolvers are capable of firing without reloading.

LCMs obviously cannot help shooters who fire no more rounds than could be fired without LCMs, so the inclusion of “nonaffectable” cases with only four to six victims would dilute the sample, reducing the percent of sample incidents in which an LCM might have affected the number of casualties.

Further, had we studied only homicides with four or more dead victims, drawn from the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Reports, we would have missed cases in which huge numbers of people were shot, and huge numbers of rounds were fired, but three or fewer of the victims died.


For example, in one widely publicized shooting carried out in Los Angeles on February 28, 1997, two bank robbers shot a total of 18 people - surely a mass shooting by any reasonable standard (Table 1).

Yet, because none of the people they shot died, this incident would not qualify as a mass murder (or even murder of any kind).

Exclusion of such incidents would bias the sample against the proposition that LCM use increases the number of victims by excluding incidents with large numbers of victims. We also excluded shootings in which more than six persons were shot over the entire course of the incident but shootings occurred in multiple locations with no more than six people shot in any one of the locations, and substantial periods of time intervened between episodes of shooting. An example is the series of killings committed by Rodrick Dantzler on July 7, 2011.

Once eligible incidents were identified, we searched through news accounts for details related to whether the use of LCMs could have influenced the casualty counts.

Specifically, we searched for

(1) the number of magazines in the shooter’s immediate possession,

(2) the capacity of the largest magazine,

(3) the number of guns in the shooter’s immediate possession during the incident,

(4) the types of guns possessed,

(5) whether the shooter reloaded during the incident,

(6) the number of rounds fired,

(7) the duration of the shooting from the first shot fired to the last, and (8) whether anyone intervened to stop the shooter.

Findings How Many Mass Shootings were Committed Using LCMs?

We identified 23 total incidents in which more than six people were shot at a single time and place in the U.S. from 1994 through 2013 and that were known to involve use of any magazines with capacities over ten rounds.


Table 1 summarizes key details of the LCMinvolved mass shootings relevant to the issues addressed in this paper.

(Table 1 about here) What fraction of all mass shootings involve LCMs?

There is no comprehensive listing of all mass shootings available for the entire 1994-2013 period, but the most extensive one currently available is at the Shootingtracker.com website, which only began its coverage in 2013.

-----

How Often Have Bystanders Intervened While a Mass Shooter Was Trying to Reload?

First, we consider the issue of how many times people have disrupted a mass shooting while the shooter was trying to load a detachable magazine into a semiautomatic gun.

Note that 16 it is irrelevant whether interveners have stopped a shooter while trying to reload some other type of gun, using other kinds of magazines, since we are addressing the potential significance of restrictions on the capacity of detachable magazines which are used only with semiautomatic firearms.

Thus, bystander intervention directed at shooters using other types of guns that take much longer to reload than a semiautomatic gun using detachable magazines could not provide any guidance as to the likelihood of bystander intervention when the shooter was using a semiautomatic gun equipped with detachable magazines that can be reloaded very quickly.

Prospective interveners would presumably be more likely to tackle a shooter who took a long time to reload than one who took only 2-4 seconds to do so.

Likewise, bystander interventions that occurred at a time when the shooter was not reloading (e.g., when he was struggling with a defective gun or magazine) are irrelevant, since that kind of intervention could occur regardless of what kinds of magazines or firearms the shooter was using.


It is the need to reload detachable magazines sooner and more often that differentiates shooters using smaller detachable magazines from those using larger ones.

For the period 1994-2013 inclusive, we identified three mass shooting incidents in which it was claimed that interveners disrupted the shooting by tackling the shooter while he was trying to reload.

In only one of the three cases, however, did interveners actually tackle the shooter while he may have been reloading a semiautomatic firearm.

In one of the incidents, the weapon in question was a shotgun that had to be reloaded by inserting one shotshell at a time into the weapon (Knoxville News Sentinel “Takedown of Alleged Shooter Recounted” July 29, 2008, regarding a shooting in Knoxville, TN on July 27, 2008), and so the incident is irrelevant to the effects of detachable LCMs.


In another incident, occurring in Springfield, Oregon on May 21, 1998, the shooter, Kip Kinkel, was using a semiautomatic gun, and he was tackled by bystanders, but not while he was reloading.

After exhausting the ammunition in one gun, the shooter started 17 firing another loaded gun, one of three firearms he had with him.

The first intervener was shot in the hand in the course of wresting this still-loaded gun away from the shooter (The (Portland) Oregonian, May 23, 1998).


The final case occurred in Tucson, AZ on January 8, 2011.

This is the shooting in which Jared Loughner attempted to assassinate Representative Gabrielle Giffords.

The shooter was using a semiautomatic firearm and was tackled by bystanders, purportedly while trying to reload a detachable magazine.

Even in this case, however, there were important uncertainties.

According to one news account, one bystander “grabbed a full magazine” that the shooter dropped, and two others helped subdue him (Associated Press, January 9, 2011).

It is not, however, clear whether this bystander intervention was facilitated because

(1) the shooter was reloading, or because

(2) the shooter stopping firing when his gun or magazine failed to function properly.

Eyewitness testimony, including that of the interveners, was inconsistent as to exactly why or how the intervention transpired in Giffords shooting.

One intervener insisted that he was sure the shooter had exhausted the ammunition in the first magazine (and thus was about to reload) because he saw the gun’s slide locked back – a condition he believed could only occur with this particular firearm after the last round is fired.

In fact, this can also happen when the guns jams, i.e. fails to chamber the next round (Salzgeber 2014; Morrill 2014).

Complicating matters further, the New York Times reported that the spring on the second magazine was broken, presumably rendering it incapable of functioning.

Their story’s headline and text characterized this mechanical failure as “perhaps the only fortunate event of the day” (New York Times “A Single, Terrifying Moment: Shots, Scuffle, Some Luck,” January 10, 2011, p. A1)

. If the New York Times account was accurate, the shooter would not have been able to continue shooting with that magazine even if no one had stopped him from loading it into his gun.

Detachable magazines of any size can malfunction, which would at least temporarily stop a prospective mass shooter from firing, and thereby provide an opportunity for bystanders to stop the shooter.
It is possible that the bystander intervention in the Tucson case could have occurred regardless of what size magazines the shooter possessed, since a shooter struggling with a defective small-capacity magazine would be just as vulnerable to disruption as one struggling with a defective large-capacity magazine. Thus, it remains unclear whether the shooter was reloading when the bystanders tackled him.
-----
The offenders in LCM-involved mass shootings were also known to have reloaded during 14 of the 23 (61%) incidents with magazine holding over 10 rounds.

The shooters were known to have not reloaded in another two of these 20 incidents and it could not be determined if they reloaded in the remaining seven incidents.

Thus, even if the shooters had been denied LCMs, we know that most of them definitely would have been able to reload smaller detachable magazines without interference from bystanders since they in fact did change magazines.

The fact that this percentage is less than 100% should not, however, be interpreted to mean that the shooters were unable to reload in the other nine incidents.

It is possible that the shooters could also have reloaded in many of these nine shootings, but chose not to do so, or did not need to do so in order to fire all the rounds they wanted to fire. This is consistent with the fact that there has been at most only one mass shootings in twenty years in which reloading a semiautomatic firearm might have been blocked by bystanders intervening and thereby stopping the shooter from doing all the shooting he wanted to do. All we know is that in two incidents the shooter did not reload, and news accounts of seven other incidents did not mention whether the offender reloaded.

----

For example, a story in the Hartford Courant about the Sandy Hook elementary school killings in 2012 was headlined “Shooter Paused, and Six Escaped,” the text asserting that as many as six children may have survived because the shooter paused to reload (December 23, 2012). ''

The author of the story, however, went on to concede that this was just a speculation by an unnamed source, and that it was also possible that some children simply escaped when the killer was shooting other children.

There was no reliable evidence that the pauses were due to the shooter reloading, rather than his guns jamming or the shooter simply choosing to pause his shooting while his gun was still loaded.

The plausibility of the “victims escape” rationale depends on the average rates of fire that shooters in mass shootings typically maintain.

If they fire very fast, the 2-4 seconds it takes to change box-type detachable magazines could produce a slowing of the rate of fire that the shooters otherwise would have maintained without the magazine changes, increasing the average time between rounds fired and potentially allowing more victims to escape during the betweenshot intervals.

On the other hand, if mass shooters fire their guns with the average interval between shots lasting more than 2-4 seconds, the pauses due to additional magazine changes would be no longer than the pauses the shooter typically took between shots even when not reloading.

In that case, there would be no more opportunity for potential victims to escape than there would have been without the additional magazine changes

-----

In sum, in nearly all LCM-involved mass shootings, the time it takes to reload a detachable magazine is no greater than the average time between shots that the shooter takes anyway when not reloading.

Consequently, there is no affirmative evidence that reloading detachable magazines slows mass shooters’ rates of fire, and thus no affirmative evidence that the number of victims who could escape the killers due to additional pauses in the shooting is increased by the shooter’s need to change magazines.

Funny, was Vegas and Orlando in this "study"?

Yes...the actual research shows you are a moron.....

And Vegas....used 2 rifles to murder 58 people.....

Orlando, used a rifle, shotgun and pistol to murder 49 people in a gun free zone...

The muslim terrorist in Nice, France used a rental truck and murdered 86 people in 5 minutes....

Cars are deadlier than rifles...

We have mass shootings regularly. Has France had more of those attacks?