Gun Debate Illustrates Two Different Americas

[Ray From Cleveland]

As is inviting them into schools to massacre, by declaring the schools "gun-free zones" (refusing to arm teachers)

Countries with strong gun control don't have a school shooting problem at all. There was an armed officer at the school, didn't do any good.

All the more reason to have armed faculty as well. The government failed us.

Yes when they got rid of the ban on high capacity magazines they failed us. Now everyone thinks they can kill the most of all time. Take the guns for mass killing and it will slow dramatically.

How?

It seems to me you (like most on your side) know very little about guns. For instance this high capacity nonsense. Do you think limiting capacity would stop one mass murder? How about eliminating rifles?

We both go to a turkey farm. We are allowed to kill as many turkeys as we want. I have a 20 round semi-automatic handgun and you have a 20 round AR-15. Who do you think will kill the most turkeys?

The people who claimed to know about guns said semi auto rifles with high capacity magazines were no more dangerous than other rifles. Now every time we have a new worst mass shooting it is done with a...Semi auto rifle with high capacity magazines. They have shown how dangerous they are, so stop the bull ray.

I see you avoided answering the question. Good call on your part.

The school shooter didn't use any high capacity magazines. Aren't you happy about that?

 

[Brain357]

Countries with strong gun control don't have a school shooting problem at all. There was an armed officer at the school, didn't do any good.

All the more reason to have armed faculty as well. The government failed us.

Yes when they got rid of the ban on high capacity magazines they failed us. Now everyone thinks they can kill the most of all time. Take the guns for mass killing and it will slow dramatically.

How?

It seems to me you (like most on your side) know very little about guns. For instance this high capacity nonsense. Do you think limiting capacity would stop one mass murder? How about eliminating rifles?

We both go to a turkey farm. We are allowed to kill as many turkeys as we want. I have a 20 round semi-automatic handgun and you have a 20 round AR-15. Who do you think will kill the most turkeys?

The people who claimed to know about guns said semi auto rifles with high capacity magazines were no more dangerous than other rifles. Now every time we have a new worst mass shooting it is done with a...Semi auto rifle with high capacity magazines. They have shown how dangerous they are, so stop the bull ray.

I see you avoided answering the question. Good call on your part.

The school shooter didn't use any high capacity magazines. Aren't you happy about that?

The one in Vegas, Orlando, and the church in TX sure did. And you think the one in the school shooting didn't why?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

All the more reason to have armed faculty as well. The government failed us.

Yes when they got rid of the ban on high capacity magazines they failed us. Now everyone thinks they can kill the most of all time. Take the guns for mass killing and it will slow dramatically.

How?

It seems to me you (like most on your side) know very little about guns. For instance this high capacity nonsense. Do you think limiting capacity would stop one mass murder? How about eliminating rifles?

We both go to a turkey farm. We are allowed to kill as many turkeys as we want. I have a 20 round semi-automatic handgun and you have a 20 round AR-15. Who do you think will kill the most turkeys?

The people who claimed to know about guns said semi auto rifles with high capacity magazines were no more dangerous than other rifles. Now every time we have a new worst mass shooting it is done with a...Semi auto rifle with high capacity magazines. They have shown how dangerous they are, so stop the bull ray.

I see you avoided answering the question. Good call on your part.

The school shooter didn't use any high capacity magazines. Aren't you happy about that?

The one in Vegas, Orlando, and the church in TX sure did. And you think the one in the school shooting didn't why?

Why? Because they don't make that much of a difference, that's why.

If you knew anything about guns, you'd realize that changing a magazine only takes about two seconds--one second or less if you practice at it:

 

[Brain357]

Yes when they got rid of the ban on high capacity magazines they failed us. Now everyone thinks they can kill the most of all time. Take the guns for mass killing and it will slow dramatically.

How?

It seems to me you (like most on your side) know very little about guns. For instance this high capacity nonsense. Do you think limiting capacity would stop one mass murder? How about eliminating rifles?

We both go to a turkey farm. We are allowed to kill as many turkeys as we want. I have a 20 round semi-automatic handgun and you have a 20 round AR-15. Who do you think will kill the most turkeys?

The people who claimed to know about guns said semi auto rifles with high capacity magazines were no more dangerous than other rifles. Now every time we have a new worst mass shooting it is done with a...Semi auto rifle with high capacity magazines. They have shown how dangerous they are, so stop the bull ray.

I see you avoided answering the question. Good call on your part.

The school shooter didn't use any high capacity magazines. Aren't you happy about that?

The one in Vegas, Orlando, and the church in TX sure did. And you think the one in the school shooting didn't why?

Why? Because they don't make that much of a difference, that's why.

If you knew anything about guns, you'd realize that changing a magazine only takes about two seconds--one second or less if you practice at it:

If you truly believe that then you should have no problem with banning high capacity magazines. Your own argument says you don't need them. Given how you guys fight for them you clearly don't believe your own argument.

Sometimes they aren't so easy to reload.

 

[francoHFW]

The Vegas shooter was nearly a model citizen until he went on his rampage killing all those people. He made a lot of money in business, he took care of his elderly mother, and certainly no stranger to Vegas. If we were to deny him access to guns, on what grounds would you base that on?

You really shouldn't talk about things you know nothing about.

The Vegas shooter may have been overtaken by jihadists and subjected to mind control techniques (drugs, hypnosis, shock treatments). He would have been the perfect candidate for that. No family, no job, nobody to miss him for a couple of days + familiar with guns.

Then the jihads disappear before the cops arrive. Paddock hypnotized to commit suicide to prevent him from fingering the bad guys.

Same thing could be true of Adam Lanza, Nickolas Cruz, the Colorado theater guy, maybe even major Nidal Hasan in Fort Hood.

Las Vegas guy was taking meds for mental illness

 

[protectionist]

That is just a silly generalization. I like my gun and neither despise nor fear it. But it would be nice to keep them out of the hands of kooks and criminals. You gun fetishists have yet to realize that nobody is interested in "grabbing your gun". But 90% of the American public myself included want universal background checks (NO exceptions), better mental and criminal databases and more power to the cops to separate deranged psychos like Nikolas Cruz from theirs.

The concept of mandatory training on HOW to handle and secure a gun is a good one. One should at least be able to pass a simple multiple choice exam. And the NRA wet dream of pistol packing teachers is as stupid as stupid gets. More professional security? Fine. Teachers, NO - They need to TEACH.

1. Arming teacher isn't the NRA's idea, it's the idea of MOST Americans. 54% of Americans say they’d support arming more teachers, while 50 % oppose the move. Poll: Majority back stricter gun laws but public split on arming teachers

2. Teachers need to teach, but they won't do any teaching if they're dead. They (like everyone) need to defend themselves. There is no other way of securing schools, other than arming schools employees (including and especially teachers). No other way is fundamentally economical.

3. Opposition to arming school employees is = to advocation of "gun-free zones"..These abominations have gotten hundreds of people killed in America, and you want to repeat all that ? (Parkland, Newtown, Pulse Club, San Bernardino, Fort Hood, etc. - all gun free zones.) That's called madness.

 

[protectionist]

Las Vegas guy was taking meds for mental illness

All the more reason to at least suspect possible jihadism.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

How?

It seems to me you (like most on your side) know very little about guns. For instance this high capacity nonsense. Do you think limiting capacity would stop one mass murder? How about eliminating rifles?

We both go to a turkey farm. We are allowed to kill as many turkeys as we want. I have a 20 round semi-automatic handgun and you have a 20 round AR-15. Who do you think will kill the most turkeys?

The people who claimed to know about guns said semi auto rifles with high capacity magazines were no more dangerous than other rifles. Now every time we have a new worst mass shooting it is done with a...Semi auto rifle with high capacity magazines. They have shown how dangerous they are, so stop the bull ray.

I see you avoided answering the question. Good call on your part.

The school shooter didn't use any high capacity magazines. Aren't you happy about that?

The one in Vegas, Orlando, and the church in TX sure did. And you think the one in the school shooting didn't why?

Why? Because they don't make that much of a difference, that's why.

If you knew anything about guns, you'd realize that changing a magazine only takes about two seconds--one second or less if you practice at it:

If you truly believe that then you should have no problem with banning high capacity magazines. Your own argument says you don't need them. Given how you guys fight for them you clearly don't believe your own argument.

Sometimes they aren't so easy to reload.

When you are in a defensive situation, most of your shots will miss the target. This is normal. If you are attacked by several people, you will need all the rounds you can get. Most of us don't carry an extra magazine on the street.

Plus high capacity magazines are better for target practice. When you are in a shooting stance and concentrating on your aim, the last thing you need is to keep stopping every four rounds to reload.

In other words, limited magazine size won't stop one mass shooting, but it will inconvenience most everybody else. And if limited magazines were in place the last five years, and Cruz still killed as many as he did, would you be satisfied that we had magazine restrictions, or would you want to advance to your next idea? Because that's exactly what would happen.

 

[DrLove]

That is just a silly generalization. I like my gun and neither despise nor fear it. But it would be nice to keep them out of the hands of kooks and criminals. You gun fetishists have yet to realize that nobody is interested in "grabbing your gun". But 90% of the American public myself included want universal background checks (NO exceptions), better mental and criminal databases and more power to the cops to separate deranged psychos like Nikolas Cruz from theirs.

The concept of mandatory training on HOW to handle and secure a gun is a good one. One should at least be able to pass a simple multiple choice exam. And the NRA wet dream of pistol packing teachers is as stupid as stupid gets. More professional security? Fine. Teachers, NO - They need to TEACH.

1. Arming teacher isn't the NRA's idea, it's the idea of MOST Americans. 54% of Americans say they’d support arming more teachers, while 50 % oppose the move. Poll: Majority back stricter gun laws but public split on arming teachers

1. I think your numbers are off on arming teachers - From your link:

Forty-four percent of Americans say they’d support arming more teachers, while 50 percent oppose the move.

In addition, law enforcement is opposed:
https://www.usnews.com/news/politic...dvocacy-group-says-it-opposes-arming-teachers

Even in Florida:
Florida sheriff comes out against arming teachers: 'Teachers should teach'

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

That is just a silly generalization. I like my gun and neither despise nor fear it. But it would be nice to keep them out of the hands of kooks and criminals. You gun fetishists have yet to realize that nobody is interested in "grabbing your gun". But 90% of the American public myself included want universal background checks (NO exceptions), better mental and criminal databases and more power to the cops to separate deranged psychos like Nikolas Cruz from theirs.

The concept of mandatory training on HOW to handle and secure a gun is a good one. One should at least be able to pass a simple multiple choice exam. And the NRA wet dream of pistol packing teachers is as stupid as stupid gets. More professional security? Fine. Teachers, NO - They need to TEACH.

1. Arming teacher isn't the NRA's idea, it's the idea of MOST Americans. 54% of Americans say they’d support arming more teachers, while 50 % oppose the move. Poll: Majority back stricter gun laws but public split on arming teachers

1. I think your numbers are off on arming teachers - From your link:

Forty-four percent of Americans say they’d support arming more teachers, while 50 percent oppose the move.

In addition, law enforcement is opposed:
https://www.usnews.com/news/politic...dvocacy-group-says-it-opposes-arming-teachers

Even in Florida:
Florida sheriff comes out against arming teachers: 'Teachers should teach'

That’s because arming teachers is a moronic idea.

 

[DrLove]

You gun fetishists have yet to realize that nobody is interested in "grabbing your gun".

Wanna bet? I could give you a link of what the Democrats are proposing in my state if you'd like. They not only want to ban ALL semi-automatic guns, but confiscate the ones that we already own including valuable collectors items.

Yes please - I shall anxiously await your link.

 

[protectionist]

1. I think your numbers are off on arming teachers - From your link:

Forty-four percent of Americans say they’d support arming more teachers, while 50 percent oppose the move.

In addition, law enforcement is opposed:
https://www.usnews.com/news/politic...dvocacy-group-says-it-opposes-arming-teachers

Even in Florida:
Florida sheriff comes out against arming teachers: 'Teachers should teach'

I noticed that number oddity too. We couldn't have 104%. But the poll (Politico) at least has the arming teacher supporters in the majority.

As for cops opposing arming teachers, what else is new ? All my life, I've known that cops don't like citizens having guns. They don't like arming teachers, don't like CCW, etc. They would like the only ones to have guns be THEM. Nothing special or new there.

 

[DrLove]

Teachers, NO - They need to TEACH.

What if reachers want to be armed?

Well, if the local school board and local law enforcement approves then fine with me assuming they are highly skilled and pass a number of tactical drills.

But IMHO they'd be nuts to do it. Scenario: There's a code red and cops show up - There's a teacher with a gun who they don't know from Adam - In that case said teacher should probably prepare to die.

 

[protectionist]

Well, if the local school board and local law enforcement approves then fine with me assuming they are highly skilled and pass a number of tactical drills.

But IMHO they'd be nuts to do it. Scenario: There's a code red and cops show up - There's a teacher with a gun who they don't know from Adam - In that case said teacher should probably prepare to die.

You don't think the cops would have gotten clear description of the suspect, before arriving at the school ?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

You gun fetishists have yet to realize that nobody is interested in "grabbing your gun".

Wanna bet? I could give you a link of what the Democrats are proposing in my state if you'd like. They not only want to ban ALL semi-automatic guns, but confiscate the ones that we already own including valuable collectors items.

Yes please - I shall anxiously await your link.

Ohio firearms bill sparks strong views | News, Sports, Jobs - Marietta Times

While I have the file open, I thought I would also post some of their ideas from the past if you are interested to read them:

Ammunition ‘Sin Taxes’ Will Backfire

Senate Dems, Led by Feinstein, Introduce Assault Weapons Ban

Obama's DOJ To Circumvent Congress With 'More Than A Dozen' New Gun Controls | Breitbart

Administration preps new gun regulations

Freedom under fire: Congress eyes requiring gun liability insurance

Targeted? Gun sellers’ ‘high risk’ label from feds cuts banking options, hurts business

New York City confiscating rifles and shotguns

Dem bill would trigger huge new taxes on guns, ammo

States look to tax guns, ammo

NY Gun Confiscation - Citizens Told to Turn in Firearms

 

[DrLove]

You're a freaking idiot, no mass shooter has purchased a gun form a private individual, they were either stolen or purchased from an FFL dealer. Also tell us how much teaching goes on in an active shooter situation. Training willing teachers to respond can be an effective deterrent and a ready response force if needed. It makes perfect sense.

You're a bigger idiot who hasn't a clue what they are talking about. Yes, most guns in mass shootings were legally obtained. Lax BG checks or NO BG checks enabled them.

Mass shooters use loopholes, lapses in checks to get guns

And then we had Klebold and Harris who indeed bought all their guns from unlicensed private dealers:

How Firearm(s) Acquired

Robyn Anderson, a friend of Klebold and Harris, bought the shotguns and the Hi-Point 9mm Carbine at The Tanner Gun Show in December of 1998 from unlicensed sellers. Because Anderson purchased the guns for someone else, the transition constituted an illegal "straw purchase." Klebold and Harris bought the TEC-DC9 from a pizza shop employee named Mark Manes, who knew they were too young to purchase the assault pistol, but nevertheless sold it to them for $500.

VPC - Where'd They Get Their Guns? - Columbine High School, Littleton, Colorado

Perfect sense to arm teachers? Nope

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Back when I was a first year college student, I was taught the definition of a nation. Among other things, that definition showed a nation as being a single culture. But in America today, with respect to the subject of guns, we have 2 separate cultures. Those who like (and appreciate) them, and those who despise and fear them.

On USMB, I've heard gun owners referred to as "gun nuts", "gun freaks", etc. They're sometimes referred to as "the gun culture". Well, just as easily, those who dislike/fear guns, could be called the Anti-gun culture.

Perhaps this dichotomy has a relation to how Americans begin adulthood. Millions of high school kids go straight to college, never spending a minute in the military, or anywhere getting introduced to firearms. Most have never even touched a real gun, much less receive training on it. Making things worse, is that college teachers, who also never touched a gun, and whose left-wing political bearings, make them automatic gun opponents.

Millions of other kids bypass college entirely, and go straight into the military, after high school. Unlike the college kids, these young soldiers, sailors, marines, etc. aren't exposed to the leftist propaganda so prolific on college campuses, but they do have lots of introductions to firearms, thereby becoming familiar with and knowledgable of them. So, for the major pars of their adult lives (after college or the military), America is divided generally, into these 2 very differing groups.

Having spent 6 years in the US Army and Army National Guard, and then attending college for 4 years, I noticed a huge gap in gun perception in this 2 groups. I was often taken aback, sometimes humored, by the stiff and robotic way that my college cohorts perceived just the thought of guns. The college kids, with no direct exposure to guns, and lots of indoctrination against them, actually though that the only people to ordinarily possess a gun were police and criminals.

They really thought that if you weren't a cop or military person, you shouldn't have a gun, and had no idea why anyone else would. In contrast, my former Army National Guard buddies had whole collections guns, of various types, each suited for various purposes. They could take apart their M4A1s, M-14s, AR-15s, clean them, and put them back together blindfolded, in accordance with their military training.

How disconcerting it is to hear education system people worrying about things happening with guns in schools, when these fears emanate mostly from ignorance of guns, and how to handle and secure them. Equally perplexing and disturbing is their amazing lack of worry about the danger of guns not being there (in the schools), for the very necessary PROTECTION they provide.

Those who speak about the "gun culture" should do some self-examination, with regard to the anti-gun culture, and the hows and whys of its existence.

My experience with USMB is most anti-gunners know little to nothing about guns. You can tell when they refer to magazines as clips, or ask stupid questions like why do we desire high capacity magazines? They really believe shooting a gun is like they see in a movie. You hit everything you shoot at.

Democrats are born liars, so they tell us their are avid shooters and also have multiple guns in their home. I file those claims along with the libs that tell me they have their own business, work from home, or are independently wealthy, yet want government to take more money from them.

I happen to be one of the ones that sometimes refer to mags as clips. I come from a time when we actually used clips so us old timers will sometimes refer to it that way. You come from a later time. Doesn't make me a Lefty by any stretch of the imagination. It makes you making a fools statement.

As for taking your guns. If you are a big enough nut case, maybe we should. Mental Health should be looked at closely for gun ownership and handling. Every time you drool a little at just the thought of an AR or an AK then you just might be mentally unstable and shouldn't own a gun. To me, guns are tools and not something to be worshiped. To you they might be something to be bowed down to and prayed to.

I can come up with all kinds of reasons why I am armed. I can say that I am armed to protect my family, my home and all that. I can say that I am armed to protect me from you gun nutters. Or I can say that I just like my gun. While all are a bit of the truth, the last one is the most truthful.

Just because I want safe gun laws doesn't mean that I want to take your guns if you are using them in a safe manner. But I do want to make sure that others will use theirs in a safe manner as well. And a few "Common Sense" gun laws can help there. This ain't the OK Corral. I have a right to send my grand children to school with a reasonable expectation that they won't be murdered. I have a reasonable expectation that I can go to a movie without being slaughtered. I have a reasonable expectation that I can attend an outdoor concert without being mowed down. So I demand reasonable laws that keep the body counts down even if we can't completely stop it. At least we can slow it down a bit.

Am I a novice? Not even close. I spend time on a range on a regular basis. I am Combat Trained and blooded. I have trained and used many weapons in my 20 years in the Military. I can field strip a M-16 in total darkness. Am I an expert? Nope. Just another shooter that spent time in the US Military like millions of others.

And I know the difference between something that is designed to kill a deer and something designed to kill a human. Yes, you can use a pair of channel locks to hammer in a nail but a hammer works better. Do you understand that?

 

[DrLove]

Ohio firearms bill sparks strong views | News, Sports, Jobs - Marietta Times

While I have the file open, I thought I would also post some of their ideas from the past if you are interested to read them:

Ammunition ‘Sin Taxes’ Will Backfire
Senate Dems, Led by Feinstein, Introduce Assault Weapons Ban
Obama's DOJ To Circumvent Congress With 'More Than A Dozen' New Gun Controls | Breitbart
Administration preps new gun regulations
Freedom under fire: Congress eyes requiring gun liability insurance
Targeted? Gun sellers’ ‘high risk’ label from feds cuts banking options, hurts business
New York City confiscating rifles and shotguns
Dem bill would trigger huge new taxes on guns, ammo
States look to tax guns, ammo
NY Gun Confiscation - Citizens Told to Turn in Firearms

Thanks but I've no interest in propaganda from DailyCaller, AmmoLand, Breitbart, CNSnews, or FreeBeacon. However, you did include a couple of good ones such as Marietta Times.

There will always be a few in the minority who want to ban all semi-auto. But let's look at the legislation that came out of Florida. Absolutely TOOTHLESS - Precious little though it was better than nothing and a good START. Questions:

1. What would be your objection to making someone wait until they are 21 to buy ANY gun combined with a thorough mental and criminal check and 3 day waiting period?

2. What would be your objection to tightening up the laws that allow someone to buy from a private seller online or at a gun show without such a check? Have you looked at Armslist.com of late? You can get anything you want - LITERALLY from thousands of private sellers and nary a bit of trouble.

3. I proudly defend my home with a Glock 9mm x17 and practice frequently after HOURS of training. And I'm not a bit afraid that anyone is coming to grab it.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

Nobody will take my gun.

Ya know why?

I aiin't a nut.

Correct. Nobody will take away your gun. And if you want to keep it that way, make sure Democrats never have leadership in this country again.

Dummy. I'm now a Democratic party "operative". I spend every free moment working to get Democrats elected to office. From city council to US senator.

And I ain't worried about anyone coming for my gun.

You're not.....huh?

Maybe you missed my earlier post. But here is what the Democrats in my state are proposing:

Ohio firearms bill sparks strong views | News, Sports, Jobs - Marietta Times

Now if you bother to read it (I'm sure you won't) what they want is a confiscation of all semi-automatic guns. If YOU DO know anything about guns, you realize that few are revolvers. Most people with hand guns use semi-automatic.

So what the Democrats here want to do is to leave people with revolvers and non-semi automatic rifles. Now that's a real defense against a criminal with a 20 round semi-automatic handgun.

So if you are pushing for more Democrats, this is exactly what you are pushing for.

Be careful what you wish for......it just may come true.

I read the SB 260. It didn't have a chance in hell to pass. It was so restrictive that almost any semi auto rifle or handgun would have been caught by it. It's definition of "Assault Weapon" was definately restrictive. No one in their right mind would vote for it and they didn't. It didn't pass by a very wide margin. Almost no one voted for it. There really isn't a point here.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

“DailyCaller, AmmoLand, Breitbart, CNSnews, or FreeBeacon”

lol

Are conservatives so blindly partisan as to believe such entities are ‘objective,’ ‘unbiased,’ or ‘reliable’ news sources.

Are conservatives so stupid as to think anyone would believe anything from such sources.