Gun owner stops violent beating....at store where anti gunners have tried to ban guns...

[2aguy]

Here you go....another one of those studies...

JSTOR An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

Journal of Law and Economics © 2001 The University of Chicago
Abstract:

In 1997, John Lott and David Mustard published an important paper in which they found that right‐to‐carry concealed weapons laws reduce violent crime. Although Lott and Mustard appear to do all possible variations of the analysis, a closer reading reveals that the study might suffer from several possibly important errors. I reestimate the model and check for incorrect functional form, omitted variables, and possible second‐order bias in the t‐ratios. Lott and Mustard's basic conclusions are generally robust with respect to these potential econometric problems. Overall, right‐to‐carry concealed weapons laws tend to reduce violent crime. The effect on property crime is more uncertain. I find evidence that these laws also reduce burglary.

 

[2aguy]

And another one...

An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

• Published online: 26 Nov 2013

Abstract


The purpose of the present study is to determine the effects of state-level assault weapons bans and concealed weapons laws on state-level murder rates. Using data for the period 1980 to 2009 and controlling for state and year fixed effects, the results of the present study suggest that states with restrictions on the carrying of concealed weapons had higher gun-related murder rates than other states. It was also found that assault weapons bans did not significantly affect murder rates at the state level. These results suggest that restrictive concealed weapons laws may cause an increase in gun-related murders at the state level. The results of this study are consistent with some prior research in this area, most notably Lott and Mustard (1997).

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[Brain357]

I'm looking for proof of what you claim. Do you not understand "correlation does not equal causation?" Do you not get that?

Someone would have to prove that gun ownership does effect crime rates. I do not have to prove it does not.

I posted a list of 18 studies that disagree with you Brain....actual research by researchers in economics and criminology.....over a long period of time......studying a long period of time.......

Pro gun people fiddling with the numbers to make it look like more guns lowers crime. And they have all been proven wrong by Wisconsin and Chicago. Both got concealed carry and crime went up. Great research.

 

[2aguy]

I'm looking for proof of what you claim. Do you not understand "correlation does not equal causation?" Do you not get that?

Someone would have to prove that gun ownership does effect crime rates. I do not have to prove it does not.

I posted a list of 18 studies that disagree with you Brain....actual research by researchers in economics and criminology.....over a long period of time......studying a long period of time.......

Pro gun people fiddling with the numbers to make it look like more guns lowers crime. And they have all been proven wrong by Wisconsin and Chicago. Both got concealed carry and crime went up. Great research.

Brain...we just got concealed carry and wisconsin just got it as well.....it takes time...and the shooting of criminals by victims ...for it to sink in.....

 

[Brain357]

No, you're making the claim, You back it up. It's on you. Prove that gun ownership does not effect crime rates.

Don't weasel out now.

No actually I am countering the claims the either A more guns equals less crime or B less guns equals less crime. I think both sides are wrong. Whether there are more or less guns is not going to effect the decision to become a criminal.

 

[Brain357]

I'm looking for proof of what you claim. Do you not understand "correlation does not equal causation?" Do you not get that?

Someone would have to prove that gun ownership does effect crime rates. I do not have to prove it does not.

I posted a list of 18 studies that disagree with you Brain....actual research by researchers in economics and criminology.....over a long period of time......studying a long period of time.......

Pro gun people fiddling with the numbers to make it look like more guns lowers crime. And they have all been proven wrong by Wisconsin and Chicago. Both got concealed carry and crime went up. Great research.

Brain...we just got concealed carry and wisconsin just got it as well.....it takes time...and the shooting of criminals by victims ...for it to sink in.....

You have claimed most defenses don't involve shooting. So again you will wait till crime goes down and then claim victory. Oh wait you already did that for Chicago. But now we have to wait again? Funny.

 

[Brain357]

Here you go...another list of studies that disagrees with you brain....


A 2012 survey of the literature is available here. Some of the research showing that concealed carry laws reduce violent crime is listed here.

Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns by John R. Lott, Jr. and David B. Mustard, Journal of Legal Studies, 1997

The Effect of Concealed Weapons Laws: An Extreme Bound Analysis by William Alan Bartley and Mark A Cohen, published in Economic Inquiry, April 1998 (Copy available here)

Criminal Deterrence, Geographic Spillovers, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns by Stephen Bronars and John R. Lott, Jr., American Economic Review, May 1998

The Impact of Gun Laws on Police Deaths by David Mustard, published in the Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Privately Produced General Deterrence By BRUCE L. BENSON AND BRENT D. MAST, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Does the Right to Carry Concealed Handguns Deter Countable Crimes? Only a Count Analysis Can Say By FLORENZ PLASSMANN AND T. NICOLAUS TIDEMAN, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Testing for the Effects of Concealed Weapons Laws: Specification Errors and Robustness By CARLISLE E. MOODY, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Safe-Storage Gun Laws: Accidental Deaths, Suicides, and Crime By JOHN R. LOTT, JR., AND JOHN E. WHITLEY, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Right-to-Carry Concealed Weapon Laws and Homicide in Large U.S. Counties: The Effect on Weapon Types, Victim Characteristics, and Victim-Offender Relationships By DAVID E. OLSON AND MICHAEL D. MALTZ, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

The Impact of Banning Juvenile Gun Possession By Thomas B. Marvell, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Measurement Error in County-Level UCR Data by John R. Lott, Jr. and John Whitley, published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology, June 2003, Volume 19, Issue 2, pp 185-198

Confirming More Guns, Less Crime by Florenz Plassmann and John Whitley, published in the Stanford Law Review, 2003

Using Placebo Laws to Test “More Guns, Less Crime” by Eric Helland and Alexander Tabarrok, published in Advances in Economic Analysis and Policy, 4 (1): Article 1, 2004

Multiple Victim Public Shootings, Bombings, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handgun Laws: Contrasting Private and Public Law Enforcement By John R. Lott, Jr. and William Landes, published in The Bias Against Guns

More Readers of Gun Magazines, But Not More Crimes by Florenz Plassmann and John R. Lott, Jr.

“More Guns, Less Crime” by John R Lott, Jr. (University of Chicago Press, 2010, 3rd edition).

“The Debate on Shall-Issue Laws” by Carlisle e. Moody, Thomas B. Marvell, Paul R Zimmerman, and Fasil Alemante published in Review of Economics & Finance, 2014

“An examination of the effects of concealed weapons laws and assault weapons bans on state-level murder rates” by Mark Giusa published in Applied Economics Letters, Volume 21, Issue 4, 2014

“The Debate on Shall-Issue Laws” by Carlisle e. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, published in Econ Journal Watch, volume 5, number 3, September 2008

“The Debate on Shall Issue Laws, Continued” by Carlisle e. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, published in Econ Journal Watch, Volume 6, Number 2 May 2009

“Did John Lott Provide Bad Data to the NRC? A Note on Aneja, Donohue, and Zhang” by Carlisle e. Moody, John R Lott, Jr, and Thomas B. Marvell, published in Econ Journal Watch, Volume 10, Number 1, January 2013

More Guns, Less Crime: A Response to Ayres and Donohue’s 1999 book review in the American Law and Economics Review by John R. Lott, Jr.

Right-to-Carry Laws and Violent Crime Revisited: Clustering, Measurement Error, and State-by-State Break downs by John R. Lott, Jr.

Seems like a whole lot of them have Lott on them. Do they really count as separate studies when the same person has his hands in so many of them?

 

[airplanemechanic]

There must have been 40 studies that disagree with you, and all you can say is "look at Chicago and Wisconsin?" Yea, lets look at Chicago.

Chicago crime rate drops as concealed carry gun permit applications surge - Washington Times

Chicago crime rate drops as concealed carry applications surge

You feel stupid now? You should.

 

[westwall]

Don't forget also, that your cellphone camera is a very important tool you can use to help thwart crime. Its a good first line of defence before you reach for a gun.

I agree....but a cell phone and a gun is better than just a cell phone.......it is harder to stop an attack with a cell phone...unless you are really, really good.......

A cell phone doesn't accidently shoot an innocent person. Or purposely shoot the wrong person. Many of your defenses go bad...

Correct, it is a good FIRST LINE of defense and it is often enough, but if people stand up to crime with an armed response, criminals will start to think twice about attacking "vulnerable" citizens.

I know that sounds nice in theory but we already have the most guns in the world and low gun control. Most people picking on the vulnerable don't do it when there is help at hand. I have not seven evidence that more guns lowers crime. If it did we would have the lowest crime rates in the world.

The people being saved don't think in "theoretical" terms. They thank the stars that someone was there to save their life. That is a fact that you can't argue with.

 

[2aguy]

Here you go...another list of studies that disagrees with you brain....


A 2012 survey of the literature is available here. Some of the research showing that concealed carry laws reduce violent crime is listed here.

Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns by John R. Lott, Jr. and David B. Mustard, Journal of Legal Studies, 1997

The Effect of Concealed Weapons Laws: An Extreme Bound Analysis by William Alan Bartley and Mark A Cohen, published in Economic Inquiry, April 1998 (Copy available here)

Criminal Deterrence, Geographic Spillovers, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns by Stephen Bronars and John R. Lott, Jr., American Economic Review, May 1998

The Impact of Gun Laws on Police Deaths by David Mustard, published in the Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Privately Produced General Deterrence By BRUCE L. BENSON AND BRENT D. MAST, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Does the Right to Carry Concealed Handguns Deter Countable Crimes? Only a Count Analysis Can Say By FLORENZ PLASSMANN AND T. NICOLAUS TIDEMAN, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Testing for the Effects of Concealed Weapons Laws: Specification Errors and Robustness By CARLISLE E. MOODY, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Safe-Storage Gun Laws: Accidental Deaths, Suicides, and Crime By JOHN R. LOTT, JR., AND JOHN E. WHITLEY, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Right-to-Carry Concealed Weapon Laws and Homicide in Large U.S. Counties: The Effect on Weapon Types, Victim Characteristics, and Victim-Offender Relationships By DAVID E. OLSON AND MICHAEL D. MALTZ, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

The Impact of Banning Juvenile Gun Possession By Thomas B. Marvell, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Measurement Error in County-Level UCR Data by John R. Lott, Jr. and John Whitley, published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology, June 2003, Volume 19, Issue 2, pp 185-198

Confirming More Guns, Less Crime by Florenz Plassmann and John Whitley, published in the Stanford Law Review, 2003

Using Placebo Laws to Test “More Guns, Less Crime” by Eric Helland and Alexander Tabarrok, published in Advances in Economic Analysis and Policy, 4 (1): Article 1, 2004

Multiple Victim Public Shootings, Bombings, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handgun Laws: Contrasting Private and Public Law Enforcement By John R. Lott, Jr. and William Landes, published in The Bias Against Guns

More Readers of Gun Magazines, But Not More Crimes by Florenz Plassmann and John R. Lott, Jr.

“More Guns, Less Crime” by John R Lott, Jr. (University of Chicago Press, 2010, 3rd edition).

“The Debate on Shall-Issue Laws” by Carlisle e. Moody, Thomas B. Marvell, Paul R Zimmerman, and Fasil Alemante published in Review of Economics & Finance, 2014

“An examination of the effects of concealed weapons laws and assault weapons bans on state-level murder rates” by Mark Giusa published in Applied Economics Letters, Volume 21, Issue 4, 2014

“The Debate on Shall-Issue Laws” by Carlisle e. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, published in Econ Journal Watch, volume 5, number 3, September 2008

“The Debate on Shall Issue Laws, Continued” by Carlisle e. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, published in Econ Journal Watch, Volume 6, Number 2 May 2009

“Did John Lott Provide Bad Data to the NRC? A Note on Aneja, Donohue, and Zhang” by Carlisle e. Moody, John R Lott, Jr, and Thomas B. Marvell, published in Econ Journal Watch, Volume 10, Number 1, January 2013

More Guns, Less Crime: A Response to Ayres and Donohue’s 1999 book review in the American Law and Economics Review by John R. Lott, Jr.

Right-to-Carry Laws and Violent Crime Revisited: Clustering, Measurement Error, and State-by-State Break downs by John R. Lott, Jr.

Seems like a whole lot of them have Lott on them. Do they really count as separate studies when the same person has his hands in so many of them?

the list in this paper has the 18...and only 6 have Lott as the author....and keep in mind...this list that says guns increase crime....has only one paper listed...of course..it is hard to claim more crime when the real world proves otherwise...without studies...

http://crimepreventionresearchcente...-Maryland-Law-Review-Lott-Concealed-Carry.pdf

 

[JoeB131]

Joe, this is a good thread. I don't always like what 2Aguy posts, but this thread is a keeper. Lets be respectful, thanks.

But it's not a good thread.

If you want, let's compare that to all the times a child shoots himself with a gun lying around, or all the times a gun was used in a domestic argument that got out of hand.

According to the text of the article, these people involved in the atlercation were all related. So, really, there was no reason for anyone to draw a gun and the gun might have caused the situation to escalate.

 

[JoeB131]

From Kleck's study....

Kleck's study has been debunked six ways to Sunday.

Dr. Kleck The Propaganda Professor

Even on the busiest day, there are rarely more than 2 or 3 DGUs in the news; and in order to meet the quota of 2.5 million annually, you would need to have 6849 daily, more than 2 per day in each of the nation’s counties.

There are exceptions, of course – some defenders have good reason to keep their actions under their sombreros. But even among Dr. Kleck’s subjects, 64 percent said the police learned of the episode either from them or someone else. My calculator says that 64 percent of 2.5 million totals 1,600,000 police reports and 1,600,000 potential media stories. So where are the other 1,599, 775?

 

[JoeB131]

yeah....mccarthy is an idiot......the rest of the state has the looser gun control laws and easier access to guns because we have gun stores....but only Chicago is a killing field....it is their lack of police...they are down about 2,000 cops, and having a democrat mayor...........notice too...those states where the guns are purchased...don't have the violent crime rate chicago has.....why would that be...since guns are even easier to get in those locations....no one ever asks Mayor rahm or his police super about that....

Chicago has had Democrats mayors for 80 years.

What they found when they did a study was that 20% of guns recovered after crimes all came from one gun store.

http://www.cityofchicago.org/dam/ci...ess Releases/2014/May/05.27.14TracingGuns.pdf

 

[airplanemechanic]

Um Joe, the guy with the gun didn't know they were related and it wouldn't matter anyway. So its ok to beat the fuck out of your relative because you know them and those gun totin' right wing lunatics better holster their gun and let you do it? I don't think so.

 

[2aguy]

Joe, this is a good thread. I don't always like what 2Aguy posts, but this thread is a keeper. Lets be respectful, thanks.

But it's not a good thread.

If you want, let's compare that to all the times a child shoots himself with a gun lying around, or all the times a gun was used in a domestic argument that got out of hand.

According to the text of the article, these people involved in the atlercation were all related. So, really, there was no reason for anyone to draw a gun and the gun might have caused the situation to escalate.

actually....very few children die from gun accidents...less than 100 a year and that is going down, not up......and guns only factor into domestic abuse when you also have alcohol abuse, drugs and a criminal in the home...otherwise you are pretty safe....

and note.....it didn't escalate.....and the beating was stopped...no shots fired.......

 

[JoeB131]

Um Joe, the guy with the gun didn't know they were related and it wouldn't matter anyway. So its ok to beat the fuck out of your relative because you know them and those gun totin' right wing lunatics better holster their gun and let you do it? I don't think so.

Well, that depends, doesn't it? We don't know what this guy had done where SEVEN of his relatives were wailing on him, but it was probably something pretty bad. But along comes trigger in the heat of the moment, supposed one of the angry relatives did something that made him feel 'threatened".

Because thanks to ridiculous "Stand your Ground" laws, we've pretty much given the gun nuts a license to kill.

 

[JoeB131]

actually....very few children die from gun accidents...less than 100 a year and that is going down, not up.....

10 000 Kids Are Injured Or Killed By Guns Each Year In The U.S. ThinkProgress

Injuries from firearms send an estimated 7,000 kids to the ER every year, and an additional 3,000 children die from gunshot wounds before they can get to a hospital, according to a new study published in the journal Pediatrics. Doctors are pointing to the new data as further evidence of the serious public health toll that gun violence takes on America’s youth.

The new study drilled down some of the data from a 2009 survey of kids’ pediatric stays. That year, the majority of kids’ gunshot injuries — 4,559 — resulted from intentional assaults with a firearm. An additional 2,149 were accidents, and 270 were suicide attempts. About six percent of the children who made it to the ER ended up dying in the hospital from their injuries, which are typically open wounds, fractures, or brain or spinal injuries.

Not to worry, the NRA has a solution to that. They are going to pass a law to keep doctors from asking parents if they keep a gun in the house.

 

[2aguy]

yeah....mccarthy is an idiot......the rest of the state has the looser gun control laws and easier access to guns because we have gun stores....but only Chicago is a killing field....it is their lack of police...they are down about 2,000 cops, and having a democrat mayor...........notice too...those states where the guns are purchased...don't have the violent crime rate chicago has.....why would that be...since guns are even easier to get in those locations....no one ever asks Mayor rahm or his police super about that....

Chicago has had Democrats mayors for 80 years.

What they found when they did a study was that 20% of guns recovered after crimes all came from one gun store.

http://www.cityofchicago.org/dam/city/depts/mayor/Press Room/Press Releases/2014/May/05.27.14TracingGuns.pdf

What gun store was it...they claimed the same thing in Wiconsin...even named the store, the store changed it's policy and made itself a seller to only me,bears of it's club...and it didn't lower gun crime.....

Besides.......L.A. And New Yoek can also get guns when they want them...... besides...Chicago had the strictest gun control in the state and that didn't stop criminals from getting guns did it.....?

It isn't guns...it is criminals?.arrest them and you stop gun crime...

 

[2aguy]

actually....very few children die from gun accidents...less than 100 a year and that is going down, not up.....

10 000 Kids Are Injured Or Killed By Guns Each Year In The U.S. ThinkProgress

Injuries from firearms send an estimated 7,000 kids to the ER every year, and an additional 3,000 children die from gunshot wounds before they can get to a hospital, according to a new study published in the journal Pediatrics. Doctors are pointing to the new data as further evidence of the serious public health toll that gun violence takes on America’s youth.

The new study drilled down some of the data from a 2009 survey of kids’ pediatric stays. That year, the majority of kids’ gunshot injuries — 4,559 — resulted from intentional assaults with a firearm. An additional 2,149 were accidents, and 270 were suicide attempts. About six percent of the children who made it to the ER ended up dying in the hospital from their injuries, which are typically open wounds, fractures, or brain or spinal injuries.

Not to worry, the NRA has a solution to that. They are going to pass a law to keep doctors from asking parents if they keep a gun in the house.

yeah......that study....is a lie...the 3,000 kids...gang members .....they forget to point that out...accidental .gun deaths of kids in 2013...505...

 

[2aguy]

actually....very few children die from gun accidents...less than 100 a year and that is going down, not up.....

10 000 Kids Are Injured Or Killed By Guns Each Year In The U.S. ThinkProgress

Injuries from firearms send an estimated 7,000 kids to the ER every year, and an additional 3,000 children die from gunshot wounds before they can get to a hospital, according to a new study published in the journal Pediatrics. Doctors are pointing to the new data as further evidence of the serious public health toll that gun violence takes on America’s youth.

The new study drilled down some of the data from a 2009 survey of kids’ pediatric stays. That year, the majority of kids’ gunshot injuries — 4,559 — resulted from intentional assaults with a firearm. An additional 2,149 were accidents, and 270 were suicide attempts. About six percent of the children who made it to the ER ended up dying in the hospital from their injuries, which are typically open wounds, fractures, or brain or spinal injuries.

Not to worry, the NRA has a solution to that. They are going to pass a law to keep doctors from asking parents if they keep a gun in the house.

yeah...dig into that.....gangs.....and the research by these medical professionals is inaccurate because they don't look at who these kids are and how they were shot...it is all about blaming guns...not criminality....