Hitler, Fascism and the right wing

[CrusaderFrank]

I kind of assume this kind of thing is common knowledge really. Probably not for Weasel or Bill, but for the rest of us it should be

So you started a thread on something you assumed everyone knew except two people?

Liar.

Fairly much, yes.

But actually I think there were probably 8 - 10 people on the forum who didn't know about people like Franco and thought Hitler was left-wing, or at least pretended to believe it.

There would be plenty more who did not know about many of the others, and I wouldn't expect them too because they are not often in the news.I can totally understand that Croatia's Ante Pavelic doesn't get a lot of press in Kansas. But I spend a lot of time in Croatia, so of course I get to hear these things. Ditto the other countries.

But now even you know who people like Antonescu and Stroessner were, and that's great. You really have learned something here, though of course you'll deny it.

The dummies on this thread don't know left from right because they are all so much like Nazis, Fascists, and Communists........they want to burn the books so they can rewrite history to suit themselves.

Right wing = limited government, maximum individual liberty

Left = maximum government, minimum individual liberty

Did that help?

 

[Discombobulated]

I kind of assume this kind of thing is common knowledge really. Probably not for Weasel or Bill, but for the rest of us it should be

So you started a thread on something you assumed everyone knew except two people?

Liar.

Fairly much, yes.

But actually I think there were probably 8 - 10 people on the forum who didn't know about people like Franco and thought Hitler was left-wing, or at least pretended to believe it.

There would be plenty more who did not know about many of the others, and I wouldn't expect them too because they are not often in the news.I can totally understand that Croatia's Ante Pavelic doesn't get a lot of press in Kansas. But I spend a lot of time in Croatia, so of course I get to hear these things. Ditto the other countries.

But now even you know who people like Antonescu and Stroessner were, and that's great. You really have learned something here, though of course you'll deny it.

The dummies on this thread don't know left from right because they are all so much like Nazis, Fascists, and Communists........they want to burn the books so they can rewrite history to suit themselves.

Right wing = limited government, maximum individual liberty

Left = maximum government, minimum individual liberty

Did that help?

Help with what? Help with your history deficit? Doesn't look like it.

 

[bripat9643]

ROFL. Unless proof to the contrary is presented, you can safely assume a history professor is a pinko. As for the so-called "right-wing" professors you cite, no quotations were presented that indicated the Nazis were right-wing.

Even if they are members of a Conservative Party? Seriously?

Only about 5% of the professors in the school of liberals arts are Republicans, and there's no proof that they are conservative.

Again dude - this is just laugh-out-loud silly.

NOT ONE historian I have cited on this thread is left wing. ALL of them confirm that fascism is right-wing, but you'll have to read the books to understand the whole story.

I recommend Richard Overy's book on the Nazi Economy - linked earlier.

You're delusional if you think anyone is going to take your word that any of the professors you cited are not left-wing.

Why would I read a book by Richard Overy when we already have one by Ludwig von Mises? The later is a world renowned economist. Overy is a historian who probably doesn't know jack squat about economics.

 

[Discombobulated]

ROFL. Unless proof to the contrary is presented, you can safely assume a history professor is a pinko. As for the so-called "right-wing" professors you cite, no quotations were presented that indicated the Nazis were right-wing.

Even if they are members of a Conservative Party? Seriously?

Again dude - this is just laugh-out-loud silly.

NOT ONE historian I have cited on this thread is left wing. ALL of them confirm that fascism is right-wing, but you'll have to read the books to understand the whole story.

I recommend Richard Overy's book on the Nazi Economy - linked earlier.

You're just wasting your time, you might just as well be teaching calculus to a German Shepherd. He barks and wags his tail in acknowledgement.......but he doesn't really understand.

 

[2aguy]

Mises Daily Mises Institute
Once this program had begun, the dynamic to which Mises called attention developed in inexorable fashion: one intervention led to another, until the entire economy was brought under government control. Businesses who were reluctant to follow the plans of the New Order had to be forced into line. One law allowed the government to impose compulsory cartels. By 1936, the Four Year Plan, headed by Hermann Goering, changed the nature of the German economy.

On 18 October [1936] Goering was given Hitler's formal authorization as general plenipotentiary for the Four Year Plan. On the following days he presented decrees empowering him to take responsibility for virtually every aspect of economic policy, including control of the business media. (Tooze, pp. 223–24.)

Of course, under a system of planning, international trade must be subject to strict control. The accretion of interventionist measures to which Mises called attention operated in this area also:

The German economy, like any modern economy, could not do without imports of food and raw materials. To pay for these it needed to export. And if this flow of goods was obstructed by protectionism and beggar-my-neighbour devaluations, this left Germany no option but to resort to ever greater state control of imports and exports, which in turn necessitated a range of other interventions. (Tooze, p.113.)

 

[2aguy]

Bill claimed that right-wing dictatorships could not exist, but when presented with the names of EIGHT right-wing dictatorships, he conceded defeat.
So that issue I think we can also call settled.

I haven't conceded anything to you...if you actually read what John Ray states the "military" dictatorships were essentially "military" in nature, not conservative.....so he points out you can possibly say they were "right" but that isn't actually accurate....read the rest of the piece....it will inform you of where you are wrong....

And considering the military is not a democrat institution by it's very nature it is a stretch to go far beyond that dynamic....

 

[2aguy]

Political prisoners, such as Communists, Socialists, and trade unionists wore red triangles.

Wow...you just don't learn do you....hitler arrested other socialists....those competing for the very socialist citizens he was competing for......

If the Crips and the Bloods are both street gangs, and the Crips take over a multi block area and kill and capture those Bloods they find in their territory....does that mean that the Crips aren't a violent gang because the captured and killed members of another gang....or if they ban any members of the Bloods from their territory....does that mean they aren't a violent gang?

You guys.....you need to actually think past your indoctrination.....

 

[2aguy]

Either way - I think this issue can be called closed as well. There absolutely, definitely was private ownership in Nazi Germany - hence, it fitsWeasel's own definition of capitalism

You are delusional....the death camps were filled with people who "owned" their own businesses....

 

[2aguy]

fascist economies were based on private property and private initiative,but these were contingent upon service to the state.

You really, really need to re read that line....especially the end....and then....read it again....

but these were contingent upon service to the state

You read that and you still don't get it....

 

[2aguy]

No...it's not what I say - it's what dictionaries say.

fascism
/ˈfæʃɪzəm/
noun (sometimes capital)
1.
any ideology or movement inspired by Italian Fascism, such as German National Socialism; any right-wing nationalist ideology or movement with an authoritarian and hierarchical structure that is fundamentally opposed to democracy and liberalism
2.
any ideology, movement, programme, tendency, etc, that may be characterized as right-wing, chauvinist, authoritarian, etc
3.
prejudice in relation to the subject specified: body fascism

Fascism Define Fascism at Dictionary.com

THAT is the real world.

I believe they say you can't define something by using the word to define itself....they don't define right wing...but they do say Nationalist...which seems to set you guys off....

Again.....the left goes through all sorts of gymnastics to deny hitlers place among them.....

 

[2aguy]

such as communists,

Again....hitler opposed "international" socialists 1) because he didn't care about the international part of their program 2) he states...over and over again...he thought "communism" was run by Jews 3) the international socialists were his direct competition....

And the whole Jew thing....Mussolini wan't anti semitic....how does that stack up in your distraction over anti semitism as some reason that the nazis couldn't be socialists....

 

[Luddly Neddite]

No...it's not what I say - it's what dictionaries say.

fascism
/ˈfæʃɪzəm/
noun (sometimes capital)
1.
any ideology or movement inspired by Italian Fascism, such as German National Socialism; any right-wing nationalist ideology or movement with an authoritarian and hierarchical structure that is fundamentally opposed to democracy and liberalism
2.
any ideology, movement, programme, tendency, etc, that may be characterized as right-wing, chauvinist, authoritarian, etc
3.
prejudice in relation to the subject specified: body fascism

Fascism Define Fascism at Dictionary.com

THAT is the real world.

I believe they say you can't define something by using the word to define itself....they don't define right wing...but they do say Nationalist...which seems to set you guys off....

Again.....the left goes through all sorts of gymnastics to deny hitlers place among them.....

Okay, now THAT is genuinely funny.

Talk about gymnastics - rabid RWs are the real pros here.

SMH and WA

 

[2aguy]

Franco received military support from local fascist, monarchist and right-wing groups, and also from Hitler's Nazi Germany and Mussolini's Fascist Italy.

hitler was opposed to the russians who were backing the international socialists in Spain, it was a proxy war between the national socialists in Germany and the international socialists in the soviet union....

Did franco allow free enterprise and respect individual rights as well as the rule of law.....if he allowed private ownership of businesses...without government control then he wasn't a socialist....if he maintained complete control over every aspect of the economy then he too was a socialist...and the Americans who fought in the Lincoln Brigades...were communists...

 

[Iceweasel]

What I said in the beginning was left and right wing are relative terms. It would be better to define the terms instead of trying to associate the right wing of the US with socialist/fascist/communist dictators. Which was your true objective, I'm sure.

Absolutely not - I have very little interest in the modern US context, and actually explained this several times in the first few pages of the thread (which you may not have seen, to be fair). My only interest here is in looking at the context fascism actually occured in - which is 1930's Germany.

As a Social Democrat I don't feel embarassed about Stalin because I would never and have never support socialism or communism. It has nothing to do with me.

Conservatives need feel no embarassment with Hitler et al because they didn't and wouldn't have supported him either. Plus it occured 40 years before most were born.

I don't think it occurred to any conservatives to be embarrassed about Hitler, hell obama is too much for us. We are also very learey about a strong central government because it puts too put power and control at the very top, which makes dictatorial control all too easy. And the world has plenty of examples.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

What I said in the beginning was left and right wing are relative terms. It would be better to define the terms instead of trying to associate the right wing of the US with socialist/fascist/communist dictators. Which was your true objective, I'm sure.

Absolutely not - I have very little interest in the modern US context, and actually explained this several times in the first few pages of the thread (which you may not have seen, to be fair). My only interest here is in looking at the context fascism actually occured in - which is 1930's Germany.

As a Social Democrat I don't feel embarassed about Stalin because I would never and have never support socialism or communism. It has nothing to do with me.

Conservatives need feel no embarassment with Hitler et al because they didn't and wouldn't have supported him either. Plus it occured 40 years before most were born.

I don't think it occurred to any conservatives to be embarrassed about Hitler, hell obama is too much for us. We are also very learey about a strong central government because it puts too put power and control at the very top, which makes dictatorial control all too easy. And the world has plenty of examples.

And Democracy puts too much power at the bottom, with the bottom-feeders, which is why the Founders rejected it. What you want is for the Elites to rule, and do so well.

 

[Political Junky]

What else can he do? He's been thoroughly obliterated.

Ha!! Really?!

Well, in that case by all means explain how if Pinochet, (who we know from your own words is both capitalistm extremely right wing and is considered by many to be a fascist) is a right-wing fascist dictator - how can it be that other fascist dictators are left wing?

Because I've been trying to get someone to answer that since about page one.

You can also take on the other right-wing fascists like Antonescu, Franco and Stroessner while you are at it!!

I always loved this quote from Pinochet -

"The rich people are those who create wealth, and you have to treat them well so they continue to give wealth."

It really is just so Fascist!

So like the Right in the US today, and their calling the wealthy the job creators.

 

[Political Junky]

Ok, so now we can at least wind some of the topics up.

Iceweasel claimed that fascism was left wing, but when provided with the names of SIX right-wing fascist regimes, he refused to discuss the issue and conceded defeat.

So that issue is now settled beyond any reasonable doubt, I think.

You claim they were right wing. You didn't prove it.

I kind of assume this kind of thing is common knowledge really. Probably not for Weasel or Bill, but for the rest of us it should be.

Franco received military support from local fascist, monarchist and right-wing groups, and also from Hitler's Nazi Germany and Mussolini's Fascist Italy. Leaving half a million dead, the war was eventually won by Franco in 1939. He established an autocratic dictatorship, Francoist Spain, which he defined as a totalitarian state,[2] installing himself as head of state (Caudillo de España, a term seen as the equivalent of the fascist terms duce in Italy and führer in German) and government, with one legal political party: a merger of the monarchist party and the fascist party which had helped him, FET y de las JONS.

Francisco Franco - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Shall I go through the others?

So again we see Fascism IS Right Wing.

Those names again: Franco, Antonescu, Stroessner, Hitler, Horthy and Pavelic.

There are actually quite a few more....so many more I can't entirely remember which SIX I meant!!

Franco allowed Hitler to bomb Guernica.
Bombing of Guernica - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[frigidweirdo]

There problem here is the debate has changed from being what is far left and far right to "Hitler was a Socialist" when he clearly wasn't.

The problem is that he clearly was and the left can't admit it for some reason. The debate hasn't changed at all, liberal hypocrisy and double talk is still par for the course.

You say this, but we've been over this time and time and time again, and all it seems is that he's left wing because "he wanted big govt" and "National Socialism has the world Socialism" in it.

That doesn't make for a socialist or a left winger. Sorry.

 

[frigidweirdo]

As if Bush were left wing!

He was fiscally.

I'm not sure if he was fiscally anything. I'm not sure he even would be able to tell you what it even means. He had his agenda and he had to pay for this. This meant he didn't try and do things that those who would call themselves fiscal conservatives would have liked. Does this make him fiscally left wing? I don't think so. More fiscally ignorant.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Ok, so now we can at least wind some of the topics up.

Iceweasel claimed that fascism was left wing, but when provided with the names of SIX right-wing fascist regimes, he refused to discuss the issue and conceded defeat.

So that issue is now settled beyond any reasonable doubt, I think.

You claim they were right wing. You didn't prove it.

I kind of assume this kind of thing is common knowledge really. Probably not for Weasel or Bill, but for the rest of us it should be.

Franco received military support from local fascist, monarchist and right-wing groups, and also from Hitler's Nazi Germany and Mussolini's Fascist Italy. Leaving half a million dead, the war was eventually won by Franco in 1939. He established an autocratic dictatorship, Francoist Spain, which he defined as a totalitarian state,[2] installing himself as head of state (Caudillo de España, a term seen as the equivalent of the fascist terms duce in Italy and führer in German) and government, with one legal political party: a merger of the monarchist party and the fascist party which had helped him, FET y de las JONS.

Francisco Franco - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Shall I go through the others?

So again we see Fascism IS Right Wing.

Those names again: Franco, Antonescu, Stroessner, Hitler, Horthy and Pavelic.

There are actually quite a few more....so many more I can't entirely remember which SIX I meant!!

Franco allowed Hitler to bomb Guernica.
Bombing of Guernica - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Which was controlled by the left wingers.