Honestly I like Bernie; Students should study for free

[bripat9643]

Read them, and the only thing that would be an actual change is that you get to mooch off of other people for what you want. High school graduation already does qualify you to go on to whatever type of further education you want; only difference is that right now it's YOUR responsibility to provide for it. I do appreciate your "generous" agreement to allow us to charge the student himself for everyday stuff, though. Very kind of you not to require us to spoonfeed and burp the helpless little darlings.

...Your delusions about the supposed benefits free college have never been born out by experience. All it does is transfer the cost of training from the employer to the government. When you mass produce education, all you do is dilute the value of an diploma. Now 4 years of college is little better than a high school education used to be...

Please consider that I am not a Bernie Sanders supporter and I fully understand that it's not "free". This sort of platform requires a sincere commitment by our society as a whole to pay into a system that allows for egalitarian social welfare programs such as these. For this sort of change to succeed in this country we as citizens would need to place the good of the many over the good of the individual. I am aware that this is not our culture here.

For this sort of change to succeed in this country we as citizens would need to place the good of the many over the good of the individual.

Which coutry has the system that you'd like for the US?

Well the country that has the most ideal system to what I personally would like to see would be Norway. Full disclosure i'm Norwegian and I also spent a year of college studying back in Norway and so I have a personal bias admittedly. It's not a perfect system there either, as there are no perfect systems, but there are a lot of things that I liked there and still like today. To be fair I also do like aspects of our system here in the US too.

The Norwegian system, much like most of the Nordic nations, would not work well here in the US because the culture overall is just too different. The expectations are different, the mindset is different, the social order is different, the wants and needs are different, and so the system there is just not conducive to success here in the US in my opinion. I wouldn't want to try and fit a square peg in a round hole and so these beliefs I hold and ideas that I have are not things that I would attempt to force here in the US. There are also no presidential candidates that I would trust fully to implement it here either and so it's just wishful thinking for me. That being said the best I can do is to try to live my life personally in that style and in the style that I was raised. I hope this helps explain it.

there are 5 million people in Norway, less than the population of New York,or any of our major cities. the USA has over 330,000,000 people. You cannot compare the two countries in any way.

the people of Norway are all racially and ethnically the same, they are one big extended family, zero diversity. You are correct that their system would not work here, or frankly anywhere except Norway. the other Scandinavian countries rely on capitalism for revenue and then put high taxes on incomes to provide poor quality social services.

Bottom line: socialism does not work, never has, never will.

I don't think it has anything to do with with population. it has to do with their culture. The people of Sweden have a high standard of living, but Swedes living in the USA have an even higher standard of living. Sweden also doesn't have a huge influx of ignorant peasants from third world countries.

 

[LeftofLeft]

How about first making college more affordable to prevent abusers like Liz Warren from taking egregious salaries? How about putting scopes around how much aid you can get so that you can pay loans back? How about state community colleges offer tax-payer funded education?

 

[Grace Is Stoked]

Please consider that I am not a Bernie Sanders supporter and I fully understand that it's not "free". This sort of platform requires a sincere commitment by our society as a whole to pay into a system that allows for egalitarian social welfare programs such as these. For this sort of change to succeed in this country we as citizens would need to place the good of the many over the good of the individual. I am aware that this is not our culture here.

For this sort of change to succeed in this country we as citizens would need to place the good of the many over the good of the individual.

Which coutry has the system that you'd like for the US?

Well the country that has the most ideal system to what I personally would like to see would be Norway. Full disclosure i'm Norwegian and I also spent a year of college studying back in Norway and so I have a personal bias admittedly. It's not a perfect system there either, as there are no perfect systems, but there are a lot of things that I liked there and still like today. To be fair I also do like aspects of our system here in the US too.

The Norwegian system, much like most of the Nordic nations, would not work well here in the US because the culture overall is just too different. The expectations are different, the mindset is different, the social order is different, the wants and needs are different, and so the system there is just not conducive to success here in the US in my opinion. I wouldn't want to try and fit a square peg in a round hole and so these beliefs I hold and ideas that I have are not things that I would attempt to force here in the US. There are also no presidential candidates that I would trust fully to implement it here either and so it's just wishful thinking for me. That being said the best I can do is to try to live my life personally in that style and in the style that I was raised. I hope this helps explain it.

Norway is sitting over an ocean of oil. If you could arrange that, I would support it as well. Otherwise, fuck off.

It is, however, it's not just oil reserves that powers the Norwegian welfare state though. It harnesses the successes of capitalism to contribute to the system, it uses a higher sales tax, higher income tax, higher corporate taxes, among other taxes and regulations, and most importantly in my opinion it has the commitment of the citizens and is an accepted part of life in order to provide the most egalitarian system that they can produce. It still has flaws sure, all systems do, but the individual in Norway is not placed higher than the good of the many. In the US individualism is typically placed above the collective good, whereas in Norway the good of the many is placed above the success of the one. That's not meant as an insult towards the US it's just the reality of how people see success in this country. It's two polar opposite mindsets which is why I personally could not see the Norwegian system succeeding here without a large scale change in what is considered more important to Americans.

You make a lot of claims that don't have a shred of evidence to support them.

The only way the Norwegian system could succeed here is if our oil reserves suddenly increased by 100 times.

Which claims do you need evidence for? I disagree that that’s the only way for it to succeed here. It would take a lot of change beyond just oil reserves.

 

[bripat9643]

For this sort of change to succeed in this country we as citizens would need to place the good of the many over the good of the individual.

Which coutry has the system that you'd like for the US?

Well the country that has the most ideal system to what I personally would like to see would be Norway. Full disclosure i'm Norwegian and I also spent a year of college studying back in Norway and so I have a personal bias admittedly. It's not a perfect system there either, as there are no perfect systems, but there are a lot of things that I liked there and still like today. To be fair I also do like aspects of our system here in the US too.

The Norwegian system, much like most of the Nordic nations, would not work well here in the US because the culture overall is just too different. The expectations are different, the mindset is different, the social order is different, the wants and needs are different, and so the system there is just not conducive to success here in the US in my opinion. I wouldn't want to try and fit a square peg in a round hole and so these beliefs I hold and ideas that I have are not things that I would attempt to force here in the US. There are also no presidential candidates that I would trust fully to implement it here either and so it's just wishful thinking for me. That being said the best I can do is to try to live my life personally in that style and in the style that I was raised. I hope this helps explain it.

Norway is sitting over an ocean of oil. If you could arrange that, I would support it as well. Otherwise, fuck off.

It is, however, it's not just oil reserves that powers the Norwegian welfare state though. It harnesses the successes of capitalism to contribute to the system, it uses a higher sales tax, higher income tax, higher corporate taxes, among other taxes and regulations, and most importantly in my opinion it has the commitment of the citizens and is an accepted part of life in order to provide the most egalitarian system that they can produce. It still has flaws sure, all systems do, but the individual in Norway is not placed higher than the good of the many. In the US individualism is typically placed above the collective good, whereas in Norway the good of the many is placed above the success of the one. That's not meant as an insult towards the US it's just the reality of how people see success in this country. It's two polar opposite mindsets which is why I personally could not see the Norwegian system succeeding here without a large scale change in what is considered more important to Americans.

You make a lot of claims that don't have a shred of evidence to support them.

The only way the Norwegian system could succeed here is if our oil reserves suddenly increased by 100 times.

Which claims do you need evidence for? I disagree that that’s the only way for it to succeed here. It would take a lot of change beyond just oil reserves.

All of them. For one, the claim that higher taxes produce a better system. It's all a load of collectivist claptrap.

 

[Grace Is Stoked]

Well the country that has the most ideal system to what I personally would like to see would be Norway. Full disclosure i'm Norwegian and I also spent a year of college studying back in Norway and so I have a personal bias admittedly. It's not a perfect system there either, as there are no perfect systems, but there are a lot of things that I liked there and still like today. To be fair I also do like aspects of our system here in the US too.

The Norwegian system, much like most of the Nordic nations, would not work well here in the US because the culture overall is just too different. The expectations are different, the mindset is different, the social order is different, the wants and needs are different, and so the system there is just not conducive to success here in the US in my opinion. I wouldn't want to try and fit a square peg in a round hole and so these beliefs I hold and ideas that I have are not things that I would attempt to force here in the US. There are also no presidential candidates that I would trust fully to implement it here either and so it's just wishful thinking for me. That being said the best I can do is to try to live my life personally in that style and in the style that I was raised. I hope this helps explain it.

Norway is sitting over an ocean of oil. If you could arrange that, I would support it as well. Otherwise, fuck off.

It is, however, it's not just oil reserves that powers the Norwegian welfare state though. It harnesses the successes of capitalism to contribute to the system, it uses a higher sales tax, higher income tax, higher corporate taxes, among other taxes and regulations, and most importantly in my opinion it has the commitment of the citizens and is an accepted part of life in order to provide the most egalitarian system that they can produce. It still has flaws sure, all systems do, but the individual in Norway is not placed higher than the good of the many. In the US individualism is typically placed above the collective good, whereas in Norway the good of the many is placed above the success of the one. That's not meant as an insult towards the US it's just the reality of how people see success in this country. It's two polar opposite mindsets which is why I personally could not see the Norwegian system succeeding here without a large scale change in what is considered more important to Americans.

You make a lot of claims that don't have a shred of evidence to support them.

The only way the Norwegian system could succeed here is if our oil reserves suddenly increased by 100 times.

Which claims do you need evidence for? I disagree that that’s the only way for it to succeed here. It would take a lot of change beyond just oil reserves.

All of them. For one, the claim that higher taxes produce a better system. It's all a load of collectivist claptrap.

I think there's been a misunderstanding. I haven't claimed that higher taxes produces a better system. Higher taxes is one of the reasons why Norway's system is able to work but it's not the only reason, others being oil reserves of course, but the other and main reason in my opinion is the human element that I mentioned before. Society in the US is different from society in Norway. The culture is different in many ways, the values and things considered important are different in many ways, and the idea and description of success and what is expected of people is also different in many ways.

I'm lucky enough to have been exposed to both systems in my life and there are aspects of the US I love and aspects of Norway that I love. My main point here was to emphasize that the system Norway has regarding education, healthcare, and other cultural and societal policies and systems works there for specific reasons. It would take a lot of changes in this country's system AND with the American mindset in general for a similar system and way of life and way of thinking to work here. I think you and I would agree on that.

 

[Grace Is Stoked]

Read them, and the only thing that would be an actual change is that you get to mooch off of other people for what you want. High school graduation already does qualify you to go on to whatever type of further education you want; only difference is that right now it's YOUR responsibility to provide for it. I do appreciate your "generous" agreement to allow us to charge the student himself for everyday stuff, though. Very kind of you not to require us to spoonfeed and burp the helpless little darlings.

...Your delusions about the supposed benefits free college have never been born out by experience. All it does is transfer the cost of training from the employer to the government. When you mass produce education, all you do is dilute the value of an diploma. Now 4 years of college is little better than a high school education used to be...

Please consider that I am not a Bernie Sanders supporter and I fully understand that it's not "free". This sort of platform requires a sincere commitment by our society as a whole to pay into a system that allows for egalitarian social welfare programs such as these. For this sort of change to succeed in this country we as citizens would need to place the good of the many over the good of the individual. I am aware that this is not our culture here.

For this sort of change to succeed in this country we as citizens would need to place the good of the many over the good of the individual.

Which coutry has the system that you'd like for the US?

Well the country that has the most ideal system to what I personally would like to see would be Norway. Full disclosure i'm Norwegian and I also spent a year of college studying back in Norway and so I have a personal bias admittedly. It's not a perfect system there either, as there are no perfect systems, but there are a lot of things that I liked there and still like today. To be fair I also do like aspects of our system here in the US too.

The Norwegian system, much like most of the Nordic nations, would not work well here in the US because the culture overall is just too different. The expectations are different, the mindset is different, the social order is different, the wants and needs are different, and so the system there is just not conducive to success here in the US in my opinion. I wouldn't want to try and fit a square peg in a round hole and so these beliefs I hold and ideas that I have are not things that I would attempt to force here in the US. There are also no presidential candidates that I would trust fully to implement it here either and so it's just wishful thinking for me. That being said the best I can do is to try to live my life personally in that style and in the style that I was raised. I hope this helps explain it.

there are 5 million people in Norway, less than the population of New York,or any of our major cities. the USA has over 330,000,000 people. You cannot compare the two countries in any way.

the people of Norway are all racially and ethnically the same, they are one big extended family, zero diversity. You are correct that their system would not work here, or frankly anywhere except Norway. the other Scandinavian countries rely on capitalism for revenue and then put high taxes on incomes to provide poor quality social services.

Bottom line: socialism does not work, never has, never will.

To be fair i'm not comparing the two systems. I was asked which system I prefer and that was my personal opinion and answer. I also mentioned above that the system Norway has would not work here in the US without major changes, changes that probably will not happen because it goes beyond just changing policy and systems, it's also the people that make certain systems successful or unsuccessful in my opinion. That being said our system here in the US is far from perfect in my opinion and so we should still try to be open minded to making changes and explore alternatives around the world that could be blended into ours.

 

[Redfish]

Please consider that I am not a Bernie Sanders supporter and I fully understand that it's not "free". This sort of platform requires a sincere commitment by our society as a whole to pay into a system that allows for egalitarian social welfare programs such as these. For this sort of change to succeed in this country we as citizens would need to place the good of the many over the good of the individual. I am aware that this is not our culture here.

For this sort of change to succeed in this country we as citizens would need to place the good of the many over the good of the individual.

Which coutry has the system that you'd like for the US?

Well the country that has the most ideal system to what I personally would like to see would be Norway. Full disclosure i'm Norwegian and I also spent a year of college studying back in Norway and so I have a personal bias admittedly. It's not a perfect system there either, as there are no perfect systems, but there are a lot of things that I liked there and still like today. To be fair I also do like aspects of our system here in the US too.

The Norwegian system, much like most of the Nordic nations, would not work well here in the US because the culture overall is just too different. The expectations are different, the mindset is different, the social order is different, the wants and needs are different, and so the system there is just not conducive to success here in the US in my opinion. I wouldn't want to try and fit a square peg in a round hole and so these beliefs I hold and ideas that I have are not things that I would attempt to force here in the US. There are also no presidential candidates that I would trust fully to implement it here either and so it's just wishful thinking for me. That being said the best I can do is to try to live my life personally in that style and in the style that I was raised. I hope this helps explain it.

there are 5 million people in Norway, less than the population of New York,or any of our major cities. the USA has over 330,000,000 people. You cannot compare the two countries in any way.

the people of Norway are all racially and ethnically the same, they are one big extended family, zero diversity. You are correct that their system would not work here, or frankly anywhere except Norway. the other Scandinavian countries rely on capitalism for revenue and then put high taxes on incomes to provide poor quality social services.

Bottom line: socialism does not work, never has, never will.

To be fair i'm not comparing the two systems. I was asked which system I prefer and that was my personal opinion and answer. I also mentioned above that the system Norway has would not work here in the US without major changes, changes that probably will not happen because it goes beyond just changing policy and systems, it's also the people that make certain systems successful or unsuccessful in my opinion. That being said our system here in the US is far from perfect in my opinion and so we should still try to be open minded to making changes and explore alternatives around the world that could be blended into ours.

your naivete is amazing, and quite funny, you must be very young.

 

[Grace Is Stoked]

Please consider that I am not a Bernie Sanders supporter and I fully understand that it's not "free". This sort of platform requires a sincere commitment by our society as a whole to pay into a system that allows for egalitarian social welfare programs such as these. For this sort of change to succeed in this country we as citizens would need to place the good of the many over the good of the individual. I am aware that this is not our culture here.

For this sort of change to succeed in this country we as citizens would need to place the good of the many over the good of the individual.

Which coutry has the system that you'd like for the US?

Well the country that has the most ideal system to what I personally would like to see would be Norway. Full disclosure i'm Norwegian and I also spent a year of college studying back in Norway and so I have a personal bias admittedly. It's not a perfect system there either, as there are no perfect systems, but there are a lot of things that I liked there and still like today. To be fair I also do like aspects of our system here in the US too.

The Norwegian system, much like most of the Nordic nations, would not work well here in the US because the culture overall is just too different. The expectations are different, the mindset is different, the social order is different, the wants and needs are different, and so the system there is just not conducive to success here in the US in my opinion. I wouldn't want to try and fit a square peg in a round hole and so these beliefs I hold and ideas that I have are not things that I would attempt to force here in the US. There are also no presidential candidates that I would trust fully to implement it here either and so it's just wishful thinking for me. That being said the best I can do is to try to live my life personally in that style and in the style that I was raised. I hope this helps explain it.

there are 5 million people in Norway, less than the population of New York,or any of our major cities. the USA has over 330,000,000 people. You cannot compare the two countries in any way.

the people of Norway are all racially and ethnically the same, they are one big extended family, zero diversity. You are correct that their system would not work here, or frankly anywhere except Norway. the other Scandinavian countries rely on capitalism for revenue and then put high taxes on incomes to provide poor quality social services.

Bottom line: socialism does not work, never has, never will.

To be fair i'm not comparing the two systems. I was asked which system I prefer and that was my personal opinion and answer. I also mentioned above that the system Norway has would not work here in the US without major changes, changes that probably will not happen because it goes beyond just changing policy and systems, it's also the people that make certain systems successful or unsuccessful in my opinion. That being said our system here in the US is far from perfect in my opinion and so we should still try to be open minded to making changes and explore alternatives around the world that could be blended into ours.

your naivete is amazing, and quite funny, you must be very young.

I'm 27. How is my opinion naive? Which aspect? Can you explain in detail?

 

[Cecilie1200]

That's an awful lot of words to say, "I don't want to change anything except to have someone else pay for me to have it."

It was a lot of words yes but if you read them you would have seen that I want to change quite a few things.

Read them, and the only thing that would be an actual change is that you get to mooch off of other people for what you want. High school graduation already does qualify you to go on to whatever type of further education you want; only difference is that right now it's YOUR responsibility to provide for it.

I do appreciate your "generous" agreement to allow us to charge the student himself for everyday stuff, though. Very kind of you not to require us to spoonfeed and burp the helpless little darlings.

Well no based on what I laid out the structure as whole would change, in my opinion, to a more efficient system with a clearer route to success for students as they choose their journey without fear of long term debt. Your work ethic in school is certainly your responsibility but the cost for higher education as it stands right now is almost an irresponsible decision to undertake for millions of graduating high school seniors since the cost for that education could very well lead to massive debt and no real guarantee of a job in your field of choice. Gambling on the futures of generations to come and the future of this country's intellectual power based on what they can and can't afford is not responsible in my opinion. It's not about being spoon fed. It's about securing a future for the next generation to be able to do the same for the next.

No, what you laid out was your own lack of understanding about how the system works now, and how reality would affect your pie-in-the-sky "it would be so wonderful if I could have what I want at someone else's expense" plans.

Please understand that, while YOU have the intellect of an insect, humans in general are NOT an ant colony. We aren't a collective, and we don't function as a collective, and your adult life is of much less importance to me than your extreme self-absorption assumes it is. And frankly, the more you talk, the less I think you could ever have something valuable to contribute to society, no matter how much time we paid for you to spend in school "educating" yourself.

I get we disagree but I don't know why you are personally attacking and insulting me since I haven't at all done that to you or anybody else here. I'm 27 and have been out of college for some time now but I do understand the current system and I also have college experience outside of the US as well for a year and so I have been exposed to more than one system. It's ok to look at our current system and acknowledge inefficiencies, inequity, and structure flaws. I'm trying to offer potential solutions or alterations but you and others here have yet to offer any solutions. You can't make something better if you see it as perfect the way it is despite visible and very real issues.

You don't know why? You're trying to make an argument to take MY money to pay for the college educations of total strangers, AND you're trying to make it on the basis that YOU are more reasonable and moral than the rest of us because of it, AND on the basis that those lazy, whining little punks are the "saviors" of the world, and you REALLY don't know why I find that offensive and annoying and find you in need of a serious verbal ass-whooping?

 

[Cecilie1200]

It was a lot of words yes but if you read them you would have seen that I want to change quite a few things.

Read them, and the only thing that would be an actual change is that you get to mooch off of other people for what you want. High school graduation already does qualify you to go on to whatever type of further education you want; only difference is that right now it's YOUR responsibility to provide for it.

I do appreciate your "generous" agreement to allow us to charge the student himself for everyday stuff, though. Very kind of you not to require us to spoonfeed and burp the helpless little darlings.

Well no based on what I laid out the structure as whole would change, in my opinion, to a more efficient system with a clearer route to success for students as they choose their journey without fear of long term debt. Your work ethic in school is certainly your responsibility but the cost for higher education as it stands right now is almost an irresponsible decision to undertake for millions of graduating high school seniors since the cost for that education could very well lead to massive debt and no real guarantee of a job in your field of choice. Gambling on the futures of generations to come and the future of this country's intellectual power based on what they can and can't afford is not responsible in my opinion. It's not about being spoon fed. It's about securing a future for the next generation to be able to do the same for the next.

No, what you laid out was your own lack of understanding about how the system works now, and how reality would affect your pie-in-the-sky "it would be so wonderful if I could have what I want at someone else's expense" plans.

Please understand that, while YOU have the intellect of an insect, humans in general are NOT an ant colony. We aren't a collective, and we don't function as a collective, and your adult life is of much less importance to me than your extreme self-absorption assumes it is. And frankly, the more you talk, the less I think you could ever have something valuable to contribute to society, no matter how much time we paid for you to spend in school "educating" yourself.

I get we disagree but I don't know why you are personally attacking and insulting me since I haven't at all done that to you or anybody else here. I'm 27 and have been out of college for some time now but I do understand the current system and I also have college experience outside of the US as well for a year and so I have been exposed to more than one system. It's ok to look at our current system and acknowledge inefficiencies, inequity, and structure flaws. I'm trying to offer potential solutions or alterations but you and others here have yet to offer any solutions. You can't make something better if you see it as perfect the way it is despite visible and very real issues.

The only "problem" you are offering a solution to is the desire of some people to get something for nothing and to make other's pay for it. That's the same kind of "solution" an armed robber offers when he wants the cash in your register.

At least an armed robber doesn't try to lecture you on how he's morally superior to you, and you're "greedy" for not enjoying the experience of being robbed.

 

[Grace Is Stoked]

It was a lot of words yes but if you read them you would have seen that I want to change quite a few things.

Read them, and the only thing that would be an actual change is that you get to mooch off of other people for what you want. High school graduation already does qualify you to go on to whatever type of further education you want; only difference is that right now it's YOUR responsibility to provide for it.

I do appreciate your "generous" agreement to allow us to charge the student himself for everyday stuff, though. Very kind of you not to require us to spoonfeed and burp the helpless little darlings.

Well no based on what I laid out the structure as whole would change, in my opinion, to a more efficient system with a clearer route to success for students as they choose their journey without fear of long term debt. Your work ethic in school is certainly your responsibility but the cost for higher education as it stands right now is almost an irresponsible decision to undertake for millions of graduating high school seniors since the cost for that education could very well lead to massive debt and no real guarantee of a job in your field of choice. Gambling on the futures of generations to come and the future of this country's intellectual power based on what they can and can't afford is not responsible in my opinion. It's not about being spoon fed. It's about securing a future for the next generation to be able to do the same for the next.

No, what you laid out was your own lack of understanding about how the system works now, and how reality would affect your pie-in-the-sky "it would be so wonderful if I could have what I want at someone else's expense" plans.

Please understand that, while YOU have the intellect of an insect, humans in general are NOT an ant colony. We aren't a collective, and we don't function as a collective, and your adult life is of much less importance to me than your extreme self-absorption assumes it is. And frankly, the more you talk, the less I think you could ever have something valuable to contribute to society, no matter how much time we paid for you to spend in school "educating" yourself.

I get we disagree but I don't know why you are personally attacking and insulting me since I haven't at all done that to you or anybody else here. I'm 27 and have been out of college for some time now but I do understand the current system and I also have college experience outside of the US as well for a year and so I have been exposed to more than one system. It's ok to look at our current system and acknowledge inefficiencies, inequity, and structure flaws. I'm trying to offer potential solutions or alterations but you and others here have yet to offer any solutions. You can't make something better if you see it as perfect the way it is despite visible and very real issues.

You don't know why? You're trying to make an argument to take MY money to pay for the college educations of total strangers, AND you're trying to make it on the basis that YOU are more reasonable and moral than the rest of us because of it, AND on the basis that those lazy, whining little punks are the "saviors" of the world, and you REALLY don't know why I find that offensive and annoying and find you in need of a serious verbal ass-whooping?

I'm not trying to offend or annoy you and so if I am then I'm sorry. Maybe it's time to move on from this topic then. Just know that I haven't talked about making or forcing anybody to do anything at all. All i've been doing is describing the system that I personally like and have experience with. I've even acknowledged several times that it wouldn't work here in the US without some major cultural changes and personal investment.

 

[bripat9643]

Read them, and the only thing that would be an actual change is that you get to mooch off of other people for what you want. High school graduation already does qualify you to go on to whatever type of further education you want; only difference is that right now it's YOUR responsibility to provide for it.

I do appreciate your "generous" agreement to allow us to charge the student himself for everyday stuff, though. Very kind of you not to require us to spoonfeed and burp the helpless little darlings.

Well no based on what I laid out the structure as whole would change, in my opinion, to a more efficient system with a clearer route to success for students as they choose their journey without fear of long term debt. Your work ethic in school is certainly your responsibility but the cost for higher education as it stands right now is almost an irresponsible decision to undertake for millions of graduating high school seniors since the cost for that education could very well lead to massive debt and no real guarantee of a job in your field of choice. Gambling on the futures of generations to come and the future of this country's intellectual power based on what they can and can't afford is not responsible in my opinion. It's not about being spoon fed. It's about securing a future for the next generation to be able to do the same for the next.

No, what you laid out was your own lack of understanding about how the system works now, and how reality would affect your pie-in-the-sky "it would be so wonderful if I could have what I want at someone else's expense" plans.

Please understand that, while YOU have the intellect of an insect, humans in general are NOT an ant colony. We aren't a collective, and we don't function as a collective, and your adult life is of much less importance to me than your extreme self-absorption assumes it is. And frankly, the more you talk, the less I think you could ever have something valuable to contribute to society, no matter how much time we paid for you to spend in school "educating" yourself.

I get we disagree but I don't know why you are personally attacking and insulting me since I haven't at all done that to you or anybody else here. I'm 27 and have been out of college for some time now but I do understand the current system and I also have college experience outside of the US as well for a year and so I have been exposed to more than one system. It's ok to look at our current system and acknowledge inefficiencies, inequity, and structure flaws. I'm trying to offer potential solutions or alterations but you and others here have yet to offer any solutions. You can't make something better if you see it as perfect the way it is despite visible and very real issues.

You don't know why? You're trying to make an argument to take MY money to pay for the college educations of total strangers, AND you're trying to make it on the basis that YOU are more reasonable and moral than the rest of us because of it, AND on the basis that those lazy, whining little punks are the "saviors" of the world, and you REALLY don't know why I find that offensive and annoying and find you in need of a serious verbal ass-whooping?

I'm not trying to offend or annoy you and so if I am then I'm sorry. Maybe it's time to move on from this topic then. Just know that I haven't talked about making or forcing anybody to do anything at all. All i've been doing is describing the system that I personally like and have experience with. I've even acknowledged several times that it wouldn't work here in the US without some major cultural changes and personal investment.

Of course you have talked about making or forcing people to do things. How do you believe taxes are collected? How do you plan to pay for your pie-in-the-sky schemes?

 

[Grace Is Stoked]

Well no based on what I laid out the structure as whole would change, in my opinion, to a more efficient system with a clearer route to success for students as they choose their journey without fear of long term debt. Your work ethic in school is certainly your responsibility but the cost for higher education as it stands right now is almost an irresponsible decision to undertake for millions of graduating high school seniors since the cost for that education could very well lead to massive debt and no real guarantee of a job in your field of choice. Gambling on the futures of generations to come and the future of this country's intellectual power based on what they can and can't afford is not responsible in my opinion. It's not about being spoon fed. It's about securing a future for the next generation to be able to do the same for the next.

No, what you laid out was your own lack of understanding about how the system works now, and how reality would affect your pie-in-the-sky "it would be so wonderful if I could have what I want at someone else's expense" plans.

Please understand that, while YOU have the intellect of an insect, humans in general are NOT an ant colony. We aren't a collective, and we don't function as a collective, and your adult life is of much less importance to me than your extreme self-absorption assumes it is. And frankly, the more you talk, the less I think you could ever have something valuable to contribute to society, no matter how much time we paid for you to spend in school "educating" yourself.

I get we disagree but I don't know why you are personally attacking and insulting me since I haven't at all done that to you or anybody else here. I'm 27 and have been out of college for some time now but I do understand the current system and I also have college experience outside of the US as well for a year and so I have been exposed to more than one system. It's ok to look at our current system and acknowledge inefficiencies, inequity, and structure flaws. I'm trying to offer potential solutions or alterations but you and others here have yet to offer any solutions. You can't make something better if you see it as perfect the way it is despite visible and very real issues.

You don't know why? You're trying to make an argument to take MY money to pay for the college educations of total strangers, AND you're trying to make it on the basis that YOU are more reasonable and moral than the rest of us because of it, AND on the basis that those lazy, whining little punks are the "saviors" of the world, and you REALLY don't know why I find that offensive and annoying and find you in need of a serious verbal ass-whooping?

I'm not trying to offend or annoy you and so if I am then I'm sorry. Maybe it's time to move on from this topic then. Just know that I haven't talked about making or forcing anybody to do anything at all. All i've been doing is describing the system that I personally like and have experience with. I've even acknowledged several times that it wouldn't work here in the US without some major cultural changes and personal investment.

Of course you have talked about making or forcing people to do things. How do you believe taxes are collected? How do you plan to pay for your pie-in-the-sky schemes?

Yes ultimately in the system that I would like to see implemented one day in the distant future it would involve increased taxation both direct taxation and indirect. It would utilize an increased sales tax, increased income tax, increased taxes on the largest sectors such as oil and natural gas companies, additional taxes on various successes yielded from our capitalist system such as increased taxes on corporations and businesses, increased taxes based on income bracket (all brackets), increased taxes on stock market transactions, and so on.

Ultimately if everybody in the country will benefit from the new system then all should contribute for the common good and for the good of the many. The gap between rich and poor would decrease and you'd have a much larger middle class that is less individualistic and more collective in nature through this shared experience where everybody has equal access.

This is not a communistic system. I'm not calling for the government to control corporations, the means of production, or anything like that. Our capitalistic system would still be functional and valid and would still serve as the primary engine for funding. The success of the new system would be dependent on the success of capitalism making the two dependent on each other.

 

[Redfish]

For this sort of change to succeed in this country we as citizens would need to place the good of the many over the good of the individual.

Which coutry has the system that you'd like for the US?

Well the country that has the most ideal system to what I personally would like to see would be Norway. Full disclosure i'm Norwegian and I also spent a year of college studying back in Norway and so I have a personal bias admittedly. It's not a perfect system there either, as there are no perfect systems, but there are a lot of things that I liked there and still like today. To be fair I also do like aspects of our system here in the US too.

The Norwegian system, much like most of the Nordic nations, would not work well here in the US because the culture overall is just too different. The expectations are different, the mindset is different, the social order is different, the wants and needs are different, and so the system there is just not conducive to success here in the US in my opinion. I wouldn't want to try and fit a square peg in a round hole and so these beliefs I hold and ideas that I have are not things that I would attempt to force here in the US. There are also no presidential candidates that I would trust fully to implement it here either and so it's just wishful thinking for me. That being said the best I can do is to try to live my life personally in that style and in the style that I was raised. I hope this helps explain it.

there are 5 million people in Norway, less than the population of New York,or any of our major cities. the USA has over 330,000,000 people. You cannot compare the two countries in any way.

the people of Norway are all racially and ethnically the same, they are one big extended family, zero diversity. You are correct that their system would not work here, or frankly anywhere except Norway. the other Scandinavian countries rely on capitalism for revenue and then put high taxes on incomes to provide poor quality social services.

Bottom line: socialism does not work, never has, never will.

To be fair i'm not comparing the two systems. I was asked which system I prefer and that was my personal opinion and answer. I also mentioned above that the system Norway has would not work here in the US without major changes, changes that probably will not happen because it goes beyond just changing policy and systems, it's also the people that make certain systems successful or unsuccessful in my opinion. That being said our system here in the US is far from perfect in my opinion and so we should still try to be open minded to making changes and explore alternatives around the world that could be blended into ours.

your naivete is amazing, and quite funny, you must be very young.

I'm 27. How is my opinion naive? Which aspect? Can you explain in detail?

to think that any kind of socialist system would be preferable to what we have in the USA is naive. socialism has been tried in many places and has never achieved any kind of success for the actual people of the country. The leaders live very well but everyone else is miserable. The Scandinavian countries are socialist in some ways and capitalist in others. They have very high taxes and "free" medical care. Very few can afford to own a house or a car. Its not the utopia that you think it is.

 

[Redfish]

No, what you laid out was your own lack of understanding about how the system works now, and how reality would affect your pie-in-the-sky "it would be so wonderful if I could have what I want at someone else's expense" plans.

Please understand that, while YOU have the intellect of an insect, humans in general are NOT an ant colony. We aren't a collective, and we don't function as a collective, and your adult life is of much less importance to me than your extreme self-absorption assumes it is. And frankly, the more you talk, the less I think you could ever have something valuable to contribute to society, no matter how much time we paid for you to spend in school "educating" yourself.

I get we disagree but I don't know why you are personally attacking and insulting me since I haven't at all done that to you or anybody else here. I'm 27 and have been out of college for some time now but I do understand the current system and I also have college experience outside of the US as well for a year and so I have been exposed to more than one system. It's ok to look at our current system and acknowledge inefficiencies, inequity, and structure flaws. I'm trying to offer potential solutions or alterations but you and others here have yet to offer any solutions. You can't make something better if you see it as perfect the way it is despite visible and very real issues.

You don't know why? You're trying to make an argument to take MY money to pay for the college educations of total strangers, AND you're trying to make it on the basis that YOU are more reasonable and moral than the rest of us because of it, AND on the basis that those lazy, whining little punks are the "saviors" of the world, and you REALLY don't know why I find that offensive and annoying and find you in need of a serious verbal ass-whooping?

I'm not trying to offend or annoy you and so if I am then I'm sorry. Maybe it's time to move on from this topic then. Just know that I haven't talked about making or forcing anybody to do anything at all. All i've been doing is describing the system that I personally like and have experience with. I've even acknowledged several times that it wouldn't work here in the US without some major cultural changes and personal investment.

Of course you have talked about making or forcing people to do things. How do you believe taxes are collected? How do you plan to pay for your pie-in-the-sky schemes?

Yes ultimately in the system that I would like to see implemented one day in the distant future it would involve increased taxation both direct taxation and indirect. It would utilize an increased sales tax, increased income tax, increased taxes on the largest sectors such as oil and natural gas companies, additional taxes on various successes yielded from our capitalist system such as increased taxes on corporations and businesses, increased taxes based on income bracket (all brackets), increased taxes on stock market transactions, and so on.

Ultimately if everybody in the country will benefit from the new system then all should contribute for the common good and for the good of the many. The gap between rich and poor would decrease and you'd have a much larger middle class that is less individualistic and more collective in nature through this shared experience where everybody has equal access.

This is not a communistic system. I'm not calling for the government to control corporations, the means of production, or anything like that. Our capitalistic system would still be functional and valid and would still serve as the primary engine for funding. The success of the new system would be dependent on the success of capitalism making the two dependent on each other.

please go to your library and check out Atlas Shrugged and 1984. Rand and Orwell saw the ideas you propose and wrote about how they would work. they had it right

 

[Grace Is Stoked]

Well the country that has the most ideal system to what I personally would like to see would be Norway. Full disclosure i'm Norwegian and I also spent a year of college studying back in Norway and so I have a personal bias admittedly. It's not a perfect system there either, as there are no perfect systems, but there are a lot of things that I liked there and still like today. To be fair I also do like aspects of our system here in the US too.

The Norwegian system, much like most of the Nordic nations, would not work well here in the US because the culture overall is just too different. The expectations are different, the mindset is different, the social order is different, the wants and needs are different, and so the system there is just not conducive to success here in the US in my opinion. I wouldn't want to try and fit a square peg in a round hole and so these beliefs I hold and ideas that I have are not things that I would attempt to force here in the US. There are also no presidential candidates that I would trust fully to implement it here either and so it's just wishful thinking for me. That being said the best I can do is to try to live my life personally in that style and in the style that I was raised. I hope this helps explain it.

there are 5 million people in Norway, less than the population of New York,or any of our major cities. the USA has over 330,000,000 people. You cannot compare the two countries in any way.

the people of Norway are all racially and ethnically the same, they are one big extended family, zero diversity. You are correct that their system would not work here, or frankly anywhere except Norway. the other Scandinavian countries rely on capitalism for revenue and then put high taxes on incomes to provide poor quality social services.

Bottom line: socialism does not work, never has, never will.

To be fair i'm not comparing the two systems. I was asked which system I prefer and that was my personal opinion and answer. I also mentioned above that the system Norway has would not work here in the US without major changes, changes that probably will not happen because it goes beyond just changing policy and systems, it's also the people that make certain systems successful or unsuccessful in my opinion. That being said our system here in the US is far from perfect in my opinion and so we should still try to be open minded to making changes and explore alternatives around the world that could be blended into ours.

your naivete is amazing, and quite funny, you must be very young.

I'm 27. How is my opinion naive? Which aspect? Can you explain in detail?

to think that any kind of socialist system would be preferable to what we have in the USA is naive. socialism has been tried in many places and has never achieved any kind of success for the actual people of the country. The leaders live very well but everyone else is miserable. The Scandinavian countries are socialist in some ways and capitalist in others. They have very high taxes and "free" medical care. Very few can afford to own a house or a car. Its not the utopia that you think it is.

As I’ve mentioned a few times now I am not calling for socialism and I have also said that I disagree with the route politicians like Sanders want.

I can’t speak for all Nordic nations but I have plenty of experience with Norway since I am Norwegian born, my dad is Norwegian, and I did spend time in college studying in Norway (Bergen). The majority of Norwegians are in fact home owners as well as atleast half the population have cars. The difference is the size of the homes and the necessity of car are different there than here. Yes taxes are very high but it’s accepted because all benefit and the inequity gap is smaller than what you have here in the US and other nations. Capitalism is the driver of their system but it’s not the same capitalistic mindset that American capitalism embraces. They are not “miserable” either. There are nations embracing a more socialistic going towards communism/fascism route and are miserable such as Venezuela.

You are right it’s not utopia in all of Scandinavia but neither is the US or any nation for that matter. I’ve said before though that the main difference is the culture and mindset. The Norwegian system would not work here without a large scale culture change around our wants and needs and the general attitude towards individualism vs collectivism.

There are things deemed vital in the US that aren’t there. Just as there are things that are important in Norway that aren’t important here. For example an everyday American may very well judge their happiness on their bank account or what they own or the success of their family member or themselves. Whereas for many Norwegians happiness is typically judged by how good they feel, the shared moments with family and friends or simply just being outside. Things that cost nothing. Absolutely there are Americans that feel that way too, but kids grow up in America embracing individual success, that’s not how most kids grow up in Norway for example. And there lies the difference in many ways as to why a system such as Norway’s would or wouldn’t work here.

I personally would be able to have that mindset if the US transitioned since I grew up in both environments and my husband and I live a lifestyle that is more traditional Nordic than American in both personal and health choices as well as financially and materially. I was raised to embrace things like koselig and jante and still do today. My husbands background is Danish and although he is a couple generation removed embraces hygge. We love and embrace it and it takes that kind of mindset to live in Scandinavia. That being said I love the US and this is my home and I value hard work and liberty, but for me personally I’m ok with it all, but there are millions of Americans that could not embrace it in my opinion if it means losing money. I would never want to force this in this country. It would have to be a voluntary cultural swing.

I hope this helps understand where I am coming from. Sorry for the length but I felt necessary to clarify my position.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Read them, and the only thing that would be an actual change is that you get to mooch off of other people for what you want. High school graduation already does qualify you to go on to whatever type of further education you want; only difference is that right now it's YOUR responsibility to provide for it.

I do appreciate your "generous" agreement to allow us to charge the student himself for everyday stuff, though. Very kind of you not to require us to spoonfeed and burp the helpless little darlings.

Well no based on what I laid out the structure as whole would change, in my opinion, to a more efficient system with a clearer route to success for students as they choose their journey without fear of long term debt. Your work ethic in school is certainly your responsibility but the cost for higher education as it stands right now is almost an irresponsible decision to undertake for millions of graduating high school seniors since the cost for that education could very well lead to massive debt and no real guarantee of a job in your field of choice. Gambling on the futures of generations to come and the future of this country's intellectual power based on what they can and can't afford is not responsible in my opinion. It's not about being spoon fed. It's about securing a future for the next generation to be able to do the same for the next.

No, what you laid out was your own lack of understanding about how the system works now, and how reality would affect your pie-in-the-sky "it would be so wonderful if I could have what I want at someone else's expense" plans.

Please understand that, while YOU have the intellect of an insect, humans in general are NOT an ant colony. We aren't a collective, and we don't function as a collective, and your adult life is of much less importance to me than your extreme self-absorption assumes it is. And frankly, the more you talk, the less I think you could ever have something valuable to contribute to society, no matter how much time we paid for you to spend in school "educating" yourself.

I get we disagree but I don't know why you are personally attacking and insulting me since I haven't at all done that to you or anybody else here. I'm 27 and have been out of college for some time now but I do understand the current system and I also have college experience outside of the US as well for a year and so I have been exposed to more than one system. It's ok to look at our current system and acknowledge inefficiencies, inequity, and structure flaws. I'm trying to offer potential solutions or alterations but you and others here have yet to offer any solutions. You can't make something better if you see it as perfect the way it is despite visible and very real issues.

You don't know why? You're trying to make an argument to take MY money to pay for the college educations of total strangers, AND you're trying to make it on the basis that YOU are more reasonable and moral than the rest of us because of it, AND on the basis that those lazy, whining little punks are the "saviors" of the world, and you REALLY don't know why I find that offensive and annoying and find you in need of a serious verbal ass-whooping?

I'm not trying to offend or annoy you and so if I am then I'm sorry. Maybe it's time to move on from this topic then. Just know that I haven't talked about making or forcing anybody to do anything at all. All i've been doing is describing the system that I personally like and have experience with. I've even acknowledged several times that it wouldn't work here in the US without some major cultural changes and personal investment.

Maybe it's time you come out of your self-flattering utopian dreams and recognize that they have real-world consequences, and the real people whose real lives would bear those consequences don't appreciate it, and REALLY don't appreciate being told that THEY are the bad guys for disagreeing.

 

[Grace Is Stoked]

Well no based on what I laid out the structure as whole would change, in my opinion, to a more efficient system with a clearer route to success for students as they choose their journey without fear of long term debt. Your work ethic in school is certainly your responsibility but the cost for higher education as it stands right now is almost an irresponsible decision to undertake for millions of graduating high school seniors since the cost for that education could very well lead to massive debt and no real guarantee of a job in your field of choice. Gambling on the futures of generations to come and the future of this country's intellectual power based on what they can and can't afford is not responsible in my opinion. It's not about being spoon fed. It's about securing a future for the next generation to be able to do the same for the next.

No, what you laid out was your own lack of understanding about how the system works now, and how reality would affect your pie-in-the-sky "it would be so wonderful if I could have what I want at someone else's expense" plans.

Please understand that, while YOU have the intellect of an insect, humans in general are NOT an ant colony. We aren't a collective, and we don't function as a collective, and your adult life is of much less importance to me than your extreme self-absorption assumes it is. And frankly, the more you talk, the less I think you could ever have something valuable to contribute to society, no matter how much time we paid for you to spend in school "educating" yourself.

I get we disagree but I don't know why you are personally attacking and insulting me since I haven't at all done that to you or anybody else here. I'm 27 and have been out of college for some time now but I do understand the current system and I also have college experience outside of the US as well for a year and so I have been exposed to more than one system. It's ok to look at our current system and acknowledge inefficiencies, inequity, and structure flaws. I'm trying to offer potential solutions or alterations but you and others here have yet to offer any solutions. You can't make something better if you see it as perfect the way it is despite visible and very real issues.

You don't know why? You're trying to make an argument to take MY money to pay for the college educations of total strangers, AND you're trying to make it on the basis that YOU are more reasonable and moral than the rest of us because of it, AND on the basis that those lazy, whining little punks are the "saviors" of the world, and you REALLY don't know why I find that offensive and annoying and find you in need of a serious verbal ass-whooping?

I'm not trying to offend or annoy you and so if I am then I'm sorry. Maybe it's time to move on from this topic then. Just know that I haven't talked about making or forcing anybody to do anything at all. All i've been doing is describing the system that I personally like and have experience with. I've even acknowledged several times that it wouldn't work here in the US without some major cultural changes and personal investment.

Maybe it's time you come out of your self-flattering utopian dreams and recognize that they have real-world consequences, and the real people whose real lives would bear those consequences don't appreciate it, and REALLY don't appreciate being told that THEY are the bad guys for disagreeing.

Ok but I’m also talking about real people, and I haven’t claimed that people who disagree with me are bad. I haven’t called anybody bad actually. I’ve been comparing systems and giving my own personal opinion on my own personal experiences with both systems. I’ve even said that I wouldn’t even want to force a new system in this country without a significant voluntary culture change happening since that’s the only real way it would potentially succeed and I’ve also said that no system is perfect or utopian. Please read my previous response again and you will see that we probably agree on some things.

 

[Cecilie1200]

No, what you laid out was your own lack of understanding about how the system works now, and how reality would affect your pie-in-the-sky "it would be so wonderful if I could have what I want at someone else's expense" plans.

Please understand that, while YOU have the intellect of an insect, humans in general are NOT an ant colony. We aren't a collective, and we don't function as a collective, and your adult life is of much less importance to me than your extreme self-absorption assumes it is. And frankly, the more you talk, the less I think you could ever have something valuable to contribute to society, no matter how much time we paid for you to spend in school "educating" yourself.

I get we disagree but I don't know why you are personally attacking and insulting me since I haven't at all done that to you or anybody else here. I'm 27 and have been out of college for some time now but I do understand the current system and I also have college experience outside of the US as well for a year and so I have been exposed to more than one system. It's ok to look at our current system and acknowledge inefficiencies, inequity, and structure flaws. I'm trying to offer potential solutions or alterations but you and others here have yet to offer any solutions. You can't make something better if you see it as perfect the way it is despite visible and very real issues.

You don't know why? You're trying to make an argument to take MY money to pay for the college educations of total strangers, AND you're trying to make it on the basis that YOU are more reasonable and moral than the rest of us because of it, AND on the basis that those lazy, whining little punks are the "saviors" of the world, and you REALLY don't know why I find that offensive and annoying and find you in need of a serious verbal ass-whooping?

I'm not trying to offend or annoy you and so if I am then I'm sorry. Maybe it's time to move on from this topic then. Just know that I haven't talked about making or forcing anybody to do anything at all. All i've been doing is describing the system that I personally like and have experience with. I've even acknowledged several times that it wouldn't work here in the US without some major cultural changes and personal investment.

Of course you have talked about making or forcing people to do things. How do you believe taxes are collected? How do you plan to pay for your pie-in-the-sky schemes?

Yes ultimately in the system that I would like to see implemented one day in the distant future it would involve increased taxation both direct taxation and indirect. It would utilize an increased sales tax, increased income tax, increased taxes on the largest sectors such as oil and natural gas companies, additional taxes on various successes yielded from our capitalist system such as increased taxes on corporations and businesses, increased taxes based on income bracket (all brackets), increased taxes on stock market transactions, and so on.

Ultimately if everybody in the country will benefit from the new system then all should contribute for the common good and for the good of the many. The gap between rich and poor would decrease and you'd have a much larger middle class that is less individualistic and more collective in nature through this shared experience where everybody has equal access.

This is not a communistic system. I'm not calling for the government to control corporations, the means of production, or anything like that. Our capitalistic system would still be functional and valid and would still serve as the primary engine for funding. The success of the new system would be dependent on the success of capitalism making the two dependent on each other.

At the point you say, "Yes, it will involve increasing your taxes", you really need to just stop talking. You will never justify to people why they should be inconvenienced for your daydreams.

 

[anynameyouwish]

I think Im voting for Bernie. Students shouldn’t have to worry about debt and loans while studying to fix our broken society. These loans are immoral and need to be forgiven.

Also anyone working full time deserves a comfortable $15/hour wage and free medical care.

Thats all

investing in education is investing in our future...

For the USA to continue to be a GREAT NATION we need the best education for our children....AVAILABLE at AFFORDABLE COSTS.

I have no idea why conservatives want America to fail because of substandard education.

I think it makes them traitors.