How do the non-spiritual explain it?

[Carla_Danger]

Setting aside the various criticisms of religious beliefs for a moment, and pretending the whimsical dismissal of God is perfectly 'natural' for man and all... how do the non-spiritualists explain the following....

Astral projection experiences.
Near-death experiences.
Transcendental meditation.
ESP and telepathy.
Ghost stories and paranormal experiences.
Other unexplained supernatural phenomenon.
Spells, curses and black magic.
Edgar Cayce.
Nostradamus.
Prophecy in general.

Is every single bit of it a bunch of hooey caused by our fears and imagination?

To me, it just seems as if there might be something more here. Especially in the case of people like Edgar Cayce. If you've never studied up on him, it's worth a search and read... fascinating man. His uncanny ability to predict the future was beyond anything we've ever known. He gave over 14k readings but that includes a brief period where he didn't do them because he was getting headaches. People were exploiting his power to win horse races and trade stock and he believed this was why he was getting the headaches. After some time, he did more readings but only his trusted wife was allowed to ask him questions.

Can our physical sciences understand this?

So, you're saying you have herd mentality?

 

[Boss]

There have been quite a few Bigfoot sightings, and at least 30% (I'm guessing) of our population thinks Fox News is a credible source of news. I rest my case.

If we take the number of people who have claimed Bigfoot sightings, add the number of people who believe Bigfoot is real, throw in the number who believe in the Loch Ness Monster and alien abduction, spread them out across human history and they represent less than 2% of the total. Human spirituality has maintained around a 95% average for all of human existence... So, no comparison whatsoever.

As for 30% thinking Fox News is credible... might be fairly low, since Fox beats out all other competition in terms of news viewers. I would come closer to believing this stat for MSNBC, in fact that may be a little high.

 

[Boss]

So, you're saying you have herd mentality?

No, that sounds like what you are saying, sweetie.

 

[Hollie]

There have been quite a few Bigfoot sightings, and at least 30% (I'm guessing) of our population thinks Fox News is a credible source of news. I rest my case.

If we take the number of people who have claimed Bigfoot sightings, add the number of people who believe Bigfoot is real, throw in the number who believe in the Loch Ness Monster and alien abduction, spread them out across human history and they represent less than 2% of the total. Human spirituality has maintained around a 95% average for all of human existence... So, no comparison whatsoever.

As for 30% thinking Fox News is credible... might be fairly low, since Fox beats out all other competition in terms of news viewers. I would come closer to believing this stat for MSNBC, in fact that may be a little high.

Actually, it's a valid comparison. Bigfoot believers, Nessie believers, alien abduction believers, etc., share a common theme: a need and sometimes willingness to believe. Tales and fables surrounding those entities above carry with them a history of storytelling that children pick up and can accept as truth, exactly like stories of gawds, demons, bogeymen and other human inventions. The gawds, demons, "Nessie's and Bigfoots' tend to vary by culture, just as gawds do, but the theme of fear and superstition is consistent among cultures.

 

[Hollie]

So, you're saying you have herd mentality?

No, that sounds like what you are saying, sweetie.

Actually, you spend a great del of time flailing your Pom Poms in support of your herd mentality.

 

[Boss]

Actually, it's a valid comparison. Bigfoot believers, Nessie believers, alien abduction believers, etc., share a common theme: a need and sometimes willingness to believe. Tales and fables surrounding those entities above carry with them a history of storytelling that children pick up and can accept as truth, exactly like stories of gawds, demons, bogeymen and other human inventions. The gawds, demons, "Nessie's and Bigfoots' tend to vary by culture, just as gawds do, but the theme of fear and superstition is consistent among cultures.

I see you saying this but that doesn't make it so, unless this is a "because I say so" argument. Spirituality is NOT superstition or it would have taken the same declining path in cultural importance and it hasn't. Nine out of ten people still believe in something greater than self. Always have, always will.

 

[Boss]

So, you're saying you have herd mentality?

No, that sounds like what you are saying, sweetie.

Actually, you spend a great del of time flailing your Pom Poms in support of your herd mentality.

Nah.

 

[Hollie]

Actually, it's a valid comparison. Bigfoot believers, Nessie believers, alien abduction believers, etc., share a common theme: a need and sometimes willingness to believe. Tales and fables surrounding those entities above carry with them a history of storytelling that children pick up and can accept as truth, exactly like stories of gawds, demons, bogeymen and other human inventions. The gawds, demons, "Nessie's and Bigfoots' tend to vary by culture, just as gawds do, but the theme of fear and superstition is consistent among cultures.

I see you saying this but that doesn't make it so, unless this is a "because I say so" argument. Spirituality is NOT superstition or it would have taken the same declining path in cultural importance and it hasn't. Nine out of ten people still believe in something greater than self. Always have, always will.

And you float your "spirituality" slogans as though others are supposed to accept them as true.

You confuse fear and superstition with your alleged spirit realms. As all the gawds who were invented and later abandoned before your gawds, in time, your gawds will be discarded as mere myth and legend.

 

[Hollie]

Actually, it's a valid comparison. Bigfoot believers, Nessie believers, alien abduction believers, etc., share a common theme: a need and sometimes willingness to believe. Tales and fables surrounding those entities above carry with them a history of storytelling that children pick up and can accept as truth, exactly like stories of gawds, demons, bogeymen and other human inventions. The gawds, demons, "Nessie's and Bigfoots' tend to vary by culture, just as gawds do, but the theme of fear and superstition is consistent among cultures.

I see you saying this but that doesn't make it so, unless this is a "because I say so" argument. Spirituality is NOT superstition or it would have taken the same declining path in cultural importance and it hasn't. Nine out of ten people still believe in something greater than self. Always have, always will.

I see you making many claims that are false. Your claims to "spirituality" are no more demonstrable than your claims to daily communications with your invented gawds.

Your "because I say so" arguments for gawds are no more viable than all the other abandoned religions and abandoned gawds which preceded yours.

 

[Boss]

You confuse fear and superstition with your alleged spirit realms.

No, that's what YOU are doing, in fact you call 'spirituality' superstition and fear.

I've explained numerous times in this thread and others, how it's not possible that spirituality was conceived out of fear and is not superstition. It's not because I say so, it's because we can objectively evaluate the evidence. Well, some of us can, anyway.

in time, your gawds will be discarded as mere myth and legend.

That may be so but human spirituality in some form will always be around.

 

[edthecynic]

So, you're saying you have herd mentality?

No, that sounds like what you are saying, sweetie.

And how dare anyone put their words in YOUR mouth like you put words in other peoples' mouths.

 

[Hollie]

You confuse fear and superstition with your alleged spirit realms.

No, that's what YOU are doing, in fact you call 'spirituality' superstition and fear.

I've explained numerous times in this thread and others, how it's not possible that spirituality was conceived out of fear and is not superstition. It's not because I say so, it's because we can objectively evaluate the evidence. Well, some of us can, anyway.

in time, your gawds will be discarded as mere myth and legend.

That may be so but human spirituality in some form will always be around.

You made only weak and ultimately failed attempts to disconnect "spirituality" from your fundamentalist religious beliefs.

You have this self imposed presumption that your "because I say so" admonitions are to be accepted as fact when your imposition of fear and superstition, under the guise of religion, is anything but a hack maneuver.

 

[Boss]

You made only weak and ultimately failed attempts to disconnect "spirituality" from your fundamentalist religious beliefs.

You have this self imposed presumption that your "because I say so" admonitions are to be accepted as fact when your imposition of fear and superstition, under the guise of religion, is anything but a hack maneuver.

Again.... I do not have a "religious" dog in the hunt. I am not a Religious person. I cannot disconnect religion from spirituality because religion is a direct byproduct of spirituality. It is the clear evidence that human spirituality does exist, whether or not spiritual nature actually exists. Accept that, reject that, I don't really care.

Religion has done good things and bad for mankind, I will not throw religion under the bus or disrespect people because they hold a religious viewpoint. I am a tolerant person, I can accept that others believe differently than myself. That said, if we are going to have a scientific debate, we're not going to use science to disprove God. That is a perversion of science and it's dangerous on many levels.

So I am going to hold your feet to the fire on things Science has not and cannot prove. These so-called "explanations" you present for human spirituality and God are nothing but your faith-based opinions. I am more than tolerant of that, it's fine for you to believe as you do, but you're just not going to use Science to back this faith.

 

[Boss]

So, you're saying you have herd mentality?

No, that sounds like what you are saying, sweetie.

And how dare anyone put their words in YOUR mouth like you put words in other peoples' mouths.

I've not put words in anyone's mouth, dipwad.

Are you now going to bogart the thread for 3 days on something superfluous and unrelated to the topic? Is that the tactic being rolled out of your troll arsenal? Can't engage in meaningful intelligent conversation so let me dilly-dab with childish remarks and butt hurt?

 

[Hollie]

You made only weak and ultimately failed attempts to disconnect "spirituality" from your fundamentalist religious beliefs.

You have this self imposed presumption that your "because I say so" admonitions are to be accepted as fact when your imposition of fear and superstition, under the guise of religion, is anything but a hack maneuver.

Again.... I do not have a "religious" dog in the hunt. I am not a Religious person. I cannot disconnect religion from spirituality because religion is a direct byproduct of spirituality. It is the clear evidence that human spirituality does exist, whether or not spiritual nature actually exists. Accept that, reject that, I don't really care.

Religion has done good things and bad for mankind, I will not throw religion under the bus or disrespect people because they hold a religious viewpoint. I am a tolerant person, I can accept that others believe differently than myself. That said, if we are going to have a scientific debate, we're not going to use science to disprove God. That is a perversion of science and it's dangerous on many levels.

So I am going to hold your feet to the fire on things Science has not and cannot prove. These so-called "explanations" you present for human spirituality and God are nothing but your faith-based opinions. I am more than tolerant of that, it's fine for you to believe as you do, but you're just not going to use Science to back this faith.

On the contrary, your attempts at argument are drenched in religious dogma. The dogma is just a religion of your own making.

I have no "faith-based" arguments for your gawds or anyone else's gawds. I simply point out that your gawds and everyone else's gawds share common traits:

1) they tend to not be in existence
2) they are of human invention, and
3) they fade into obscurity over time as they are replaced by less powerful gawds.

 

[Boss]

Your claims to "spirituality" are no more demonstrable than your claims to daily communications with your invented gawds.

I've covered this topic more than any other at USMB. All my claims are consistent. I have never stated there is physical proof of spiritual things. I think that concept is somewhat idiotic on it's face.

I can demonstrate spiritual energy to you... BUT... You have to give me 90 days, mind, body and soul, and most importantly, faith. I guarantee you at the end of that 90 days, you will realize the evidence of spiritual energy for yourself.

The problem is, you're not going to ever do this. Probably because you already know that spiritual nature is true and does exist. Your whole shtick is to destroy human spirituality because your heart is being guided by religious bigotry and hate.

We have physical evidence (not proof) of human spirituality. This is a primary attribute of the species and has been our most defining attribute for all our discovered past. We're very spiritually rooted and grounded, our civilizations and cultures are all built upon spiritual foundations, our entire evolutionary process is attributed primarily by a word we invented with homage to spirituality... IN-SPIR-ATION!

With the question of existence, we must first define what is meant and what is the perception of "exist" in our minds. If you live in the universe where "exist" can only mean physical and spiritual existence is impossible.... then no, spiritual nature doesn't exist for you, never will. However, if you live in the universe where "exist" means physical and metaphysical, extending beyond what we can detect with our five senses, and includes the possibility of spiritual nature and billions of other things science hasn't discovered yet, then you may believe spiritual nature exists.

Setting aside whether the existence of spiritual nature is true or false, there is no denying human beings have an inseparable and intrinsic connection to that belief. Sigmund Freud made one of my favorite observations on this, he said something to the effect of: "The human psyche is such that, if God did not exist, man would have to invent him. " Some will argue that he is saying it's inevitable that man invented God, but not so fast... he is actually saying that humans are designed psychologically this way.

 

[Hollie]

Your claims to "spirituality" are no more demonstrable than your claims to daily communications with your invented gawds.

I've covered this topic more than any other at USMB. All my claims are consistent. I have never stated there is physical proof of spiritual things. I think that concept is somewhat idiotic on it's face.

I can demonstrate spiritual energy to you... BUT... You have to give me 90 days, mind, body and soul, and most importantly, faith. I guarantee you at the end of that 90 days, you will realize the evidence of spiritual energy for yourself.

The problem is, you're not going to ever do this. Probably because you already know that spiritual nature is true and does exist. Your whole shtick is to destroy human spirituality because your heart is being guided by religious bigotry and hate.

We have physical evidence (not proof) of human spirituality. This is a primary attribute of the species and has been our most defining attribute for all our discovered past. We're very spiritually rooted and grounded, our civilizations and cultures are all built upon spiritual foundations, our entire evolutionary process is attributed primarily by a word we invented with homage to spirituality... IN-SPIR-ATION!

With the question of existence, we must first define what is meant and what is the perception of "exist" in our minds. If you live in the universe where "exist" can only mean physical and spiritual existence is impossible.... then no, spiritual nature doesn't exist for you, never will. However, if you live in the universe where "exist" means physical and metaphysical, extending beyond what we can detect with our five senses, and includes the possibility of spiritual nature and billions of other things science hasn't discovered yet, then you may believe spiritual nature exists.

Setting aside whether the existence of spiritual nature is true or false, there is no denying human beings have an inseparable and intrinsic connection to that belief. Sigmund Freud made one of my favorite observations on this, he said something to the effect of: "The human psyche is such that, if God did not exist, man would have to invent him. " Some will argue that he is saying it's inevitable that man invented God, but not so fast... he is actually saying that humans are designed psychologically this way.

I find it to be comedy gold that you claim you can demonstrate "spiritual energy", whatever that is. That sounds something like the reinvention of a 19th century snake oil salesman or possibly a L Ron Hubbard wannabe.

But all seriousness aside, if you give me 90 days, I'm sure I can perform an intervention and separate you from your cult of one.

Setting aside your foolish insistence regarding your religious belief about human "spirituality", you continue to confuse your asserted spirit realms with human frailties relative to fear and superstition.

If it's "quotes" you want:

If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
-Anatole France

 

[Inevitable]

So, you're saying you have herd mentality?

No, that sounds like what you are saying, sweetie.

And how dare anyone put their words in YOUR mouth like you put words in other peoples' mouths.

Now he calls names and acts like a child.

No real point in attempting to debate with the fellow, he just calls you names and attempting to insult people while repeating the same crap he said before.

If you want to debate with somebody pick somebody that is capable of it. In speak years I've not found many on religious forums. They take arguments as personal attacks against their faith. Now I know why online atheists are so belligerent.

 

[Boss]

Your claims to "spirituality" are no more demonstrable than your claims to daily communications with your invented gawds.

I've covered this topic more than any other at USMB. All my claims are consistent. I have never stated there is physical proof of spiritual things. I think that concept is somewhat idiotic on it's face.

I can demonstrate spiritual energy to you... BUT... You have to give me 90 days, mind, body and soul, and most importantly, faith. I guarantee you at the end of that 90 days, you will realize the evidence of spiritual energy for yourself.

The problem is, you're not going to ever do this. Probably because you already know that spiritual nature is true and does exist. Your whole shtick is to destroy human spirituality because your heart is being guided by religious bigotry and hate.

We have physical evidence (not proof) of human spirituality. This is a primary attribute of the species and has been our most defining attribute for all our discovered past. We're very spiritually rooted and grounded, our civilizations and cultures are all built upon spiritual foundations, our entire evolutionary process is attributed primarily by a word we invented with homage to spirituality... IN-SPIR-ATION!

With the question of existence, we must first define what is meant and what is the perception of "exist" in our minds. If you live in the universe where "exist" can only mean physical and spiritual existence is impossible.... then no, spiritual nature doesn't exist for you, never will. However, if you live in the universe where "exist" means physical and metaphysical, extending beyond what we can detect with our five senses, and includes the possibility of spiritual nature and billions of other things science hasn't discovered yet, then you may believe spiritual nature exists.

Setting aside whether the existence of spiritual nature is true or false, there is no denying human beings have an inseparable and intrinsic connection to that belief. Sigmund Freud made one of my favorite observations on this, he said something to the effect of: "The human psyche is such that, if God did not exist, man would have to invent him. " Some will argue that he is saying it's inevitable that man invented God, but not so fast... he is actually saying that humans are designed psychologically this way.

I find it to be comedy gold that you claim you can demonstrate "spiritual energy", whatever that is. That sounds something like the reinvention of a 19th century snake oil salesman or possibly a L Ron Hubbard wannabe.

But all seriousness aside, if you give me 90 days, I'm sure I can perform an intervention and separate you from your cult of one.

Setting aside your foolish insistence regarding your religious belief about human "spirituality", you continue to confuse your asserted spirit realms with human frailties relative to fear and superstition.

If it's "quotes" you want:

If a million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
-Anatole France

But all seriousness aside, if you give me 90 days, I'm sure I can perform an intervention and separate you from your cult of one.

But here is the analogy... I am sitting at a smörgåsbord table full of everything my heart desires, and you can't see that table or acknowledge it is there... you are offering to take me into the wilderness and teach me to live off the land.

I used to be in the wilderness, living off the land, starving for something and never finding it. I remember those days well, they were sometimes very fun and exciting, I can't lie. But they were also full of discontent and yearning for something that wasn't there, something missing. I wasn't fulfilled as a person and I knew it. I tried for years to deny this and cover it up with pills, booze, sex, you name it... nothing worked.

I know this sounds like a religious testimony, but I tried religion as well, several times and several varieties... sometimes they were part of my denial process. I found the solution and fulfillment I needed in Spirituality. It's not the same as Religion, and when I try to explain this to people like you, I get the eye-rolls. But my personal Spirituality is not a Religion, and you couldn't ever follow it even if you wanted to. It does not depend upon any action by you and it's not belonging to any organized religious dogma.

...your foolish insistence regarding your religious belief about human "spirituality", you continue to confuse your asserted spirit realms with human frailties relative to fear and superstition.

Fear is natural in all life forms. Every species of life deals with fear by creating solutions which circumvent the fear in order to survive. It's hard for me to accept that humans, the most intelligent species of life, completely fooled nature and created a solution which was imaginary and held no physical bearing on consequence. A vine will grow around a brick to find a solution to the 'fear' of not being able to reach enough sunlight. The vine doesn't solve it's problem by creating imaginary sun in the shade. Some animals have an amazing ability to camouflage themselves out of a 'fear' of predators, they don't imagine some invisible entity is going to protect them. And IF a species ever did make such a conscious rationalization, they would have become extinct very quickly.

So spirituality can only be "invention out of fear" if we are willing to accept it is naturally effective in mitigating that fear and fundamental to the species. In other words, it has to work and be valid if it was "devised out of fears" as you claim.

Superstitions, we have a rich and imaginative collection of those throughout human history. Religion and superstition can certainly intermingle and often it does. But human spirituality is not Superstition. If it were, it would have never survived past the Dark Ages... IF it ever made it that far.

It is the human heart, soul and spirit which drive human spirituality.

 

[edthecynic]

So, you're saying you have herd mentality?

No, that sounds like what you are saying, sweetie.

And how dare anyone put their words in YOUR mouth like you put words in other peoples' mouths.

I've not put words in anyone's mouth, dipwad.

Like I said, liars gotta lie.

That means — while we can't say with certainty that it will never come to an end — it's likely (we believe)the universe extends forever in space and will go on forever in time. Our results are consistent with an infinite universe."

The unaltered by a pathological liar quote below:

"That means — while we can't say with certainty that it will never come to an end — it's likely the universe extends forever in space and will go on forever in time. Our results are consistent with an infinite universe."