How much do extremely wealthy people owe to the society that gave them the chance to prosper so much?

[Rigby5]

Surely something, right? I see a lot of people talk like taxes are theft. Is it not just our obligation?

The distribution of wealth is ultimately determined by the dominant military force.

The economic system is created by the government according to the laws of that government.

Without the U.S. government there would be nothing to protect the wealthy and guarantee their wealth.

So the more you have, the more you are obliged to contribute to the existence of the U.S. government.

I don't really disagree, but the founders never wanted a mercenary military force because people working for pay can never be trusted.
They wanted a volunteer military only, and that does not have to cost anything.

And when you write, "The economic system is created by the government according to the laws of that government", you have to be careful, and remember that WE are supposed to be the government, and laws are only supposed to be according to what is necessary to defend individual rights, or popularly agreed upon to enhance the lives of all.
There is not supposed to be a separate party that is government, and it certainly is not supposed to be above us.
Of, by, and for the People.

My first 2 statements are general principles that apply to every society - not just the U.S.

Here in the U.S. the general rule regarding economics has been "when in doubt - government stay out"

However, there are some basic principles that have to be enforced by law for anything close to a free market economy to exist.

Three of these principles that I can think of are:

- Transactions must be peaceful
- Transactions must be willful
- Contracts must be honored

Never say "free market".
Free market means no regulations or rules at all, which means abuses ranging from monoplies, to holdup at gunpoint.
The correct term for a business friendly environment is "fair market".
That is where everyone has reasonable protection.
No holdups, no scams, no monopolies, etc.
Free market means anything goes.

 

[Dragonlady]

Surely something, right? I see a lot of people talk like taxes are theft. Is it not just our obligation?

The taxes that you pay are your shares of the costs of living in a first world country - for education, infrastructure, security, and personal property rights you enjoy. For police, fire, hospitals, laws, courts, business systems, and management of all of it. Even those who are childless enjoy the benefits of living in an educated society, so they have access to doctors, lawyers, teachers, and other professional people who improve the quality of our lives.

There are many countries that have no taxes and no government to speak of. They are hell-holes, where you need to be very rich indeed just to keep what you have, and to afford the private security you'll need to secure it.

First world countries provide the stable platforms for human beings to achieve their full potential - making available the infrastructure, education, and opportunities to people to advance to the limits of their abilities, and provides the access to the resources to make it happen.

The downside to first world capitalism, is that there will always be recessions - periods of contraction, and adjustment, and those recessions will always hit the lowest paid and most vulnerable first. That's why first world nations need a strong social safety net, and well regulated capitalism, to ensure the health, welfare and safety of all of the citizens. That's also why the wealthy need to pay more into that social safety net, because they are the ones who are most insulated and suffer the least during these times.

As we are seeing now, the richest corporations are doing well in this pandemic, and increasing both market share and profits, while workers are lining up in food banks. But Amazon paid no taxes last year - and they're negotiating with cities for tax breaks for them to locate hubs and warehouses in their jurisdictions. Amazon, and other corporations, should pay every dollar their infrastructure requirements cost these cities. The taxpayers in the community should not have to pay for transportation, roadways, expansion of electicity, water and sewage capacity, or railway or transportation improvement so Jeff Bezos can make more money.

 

[Anomalism]

What would make you happy? Hanging them from trees?

I have rich people in my family. I'm not Karl Marx.

 

[Rigby5]

I don't want any of the services government has rendered. Personaly, I have no use for the "service" of being looted and forced to pay for things I don't want.

Public infrastructure? Military protection? Police and fire fighters?

About the only thing you could reasonably make a case for is Military protection and police. However, that would cost only about 5% of current government spending.

Wrong.
They have hidden most of the defense spending, like they call VA and GIBill spending as "social services".
But defense spending is actually about 70% of where our tax money goes.
While they do not make it look like that in the budget, the reality is that almost all the interest paid on previous national debt is past military spending. We just recently finally paid off SDI. And we won't have Desert Storm or the invasion of Iraq paid off for another decade.

Nor is defense the only purpose of government.
Fire fighting, utilities like sanitation, harbor and other transportation, etc., are important.
And if you do not pay for education, you not only will have much higher crime costs, but you will eventually have armed rebellion due to the unfairness.

 

[Orangecat]

Nothing like poor people on USMB looking out for the wealthy. Way to go guys!

First this group knows nothing about taxes. Take this post for example liked by 5 uninformed groupies Orangecat Juicey Omelette Jimmy_Chitwood AMart deannalw

A person making 163,301 pays 8% more in taxes than someone that made 163,300. Thats bullshit.
A person that makes half a million, pays almost 40 of their income to the federal govt.

It’s not true. We all pay the SAME taxes. Exact same. The tax rate on your first $10k is 10% so is mine. Over that it’s 12% just on the amount over $10k and it keeps going on. So a person making $163,301 pays 12 cents more than someone making $163,300. If the tax rate wasn’t at $163,300 then it would be 10 cents more or a 2 cent difference for being at the break.

I assure you if hypothetically I make $600k I pay nowhere near 40%. First the max rate is 37% and only on income $518,401 so if I make $618,401 I pay 37% on the last $100k but less on the rest of my salary.

Secondly, I am able to defer taxes on half my income with my executive job so that I’m taxed on $300k and I can decide to invest the other $300k with an approved non qualified program. I decide to take the money out over time in 10 years when I’m retired in increments small enough to keep me in a lower tax bracket since I’m retired.

There are a million ways for me to make out like a bandit. The way I described my effective tax rate is 12%. Bwahahaha. Suckers! Keep licking my (hypothetically) rich boots and voting for my puppets!!!!!!

Marxist claptrap^^^

 

[bripat9643]

I don't want any of the services government has rendered. Personaly, I have no use for the "service" of being looted and forced to pay for things I don't want.

Public infrastructure? Military protection? Police and fire fighters?

About the only thing you could reasonably make a case for is Military protection and police. However, that would cost only about 5% of current government spending.

Wrong.
They have hidden most of the defense spending, like they call VA and GIBill spending as "social services".
But defense spending is actually about 70% of where our tax money goes.
While they do not make it look like that in the budget, the reality is that almost all the interest paid on previous national debt is past military spending. We just recently finally paid off SDI. And we won't have Desert Storm or the invasion of Iraq paid off for another decade.

Nor is defense the only purpose of government.
Fire fighting, utilities like sanitation, harbor and other transportation, etc., are important.
And if you do not pay for education, you not only will have much higher crime costs, but you will eventually have armed rebellion due to the unfairness.

Spare, me, asshole. I'm not required to accept all your bogus premises.

 

[DukeU]

There are SOME people who get wealthy by virtue of creativeness, invention, hard work, etc., but very FEW.
Once you have money, it is easy to just loan it out and make big bucks.
For example, if you simply have a good enough credit rating, you do not have to put money down to buy rental properties, and then the tenants actually make the payments, and buy the house for you as the landlord.
Most of the wealthy product nothing and pay almost nothing in taxex.
They can pay themselves in stock options, so they only pay the minimal capital gains tax rate.

How do you get a good credit rating? By being responsible with your money and paying your bills.

Also, if I have a good credit rating and use it to acquire a rental property. Have I not provided something someone wants, why would I do that if no one WANTED to use it?

 

[Crepitus]

They also give a lot of money and time, to charity.

As tax shelters.

who cares as long as they are paying it,,

anytime the people get more and the government gets less is a good thing,,

Except that isn't how it works out. There pay less, the government gets less, and the people they don't pay a living wage to get less to make up for it.

as long as the government gets less there is more for the company to pay employees,,

But they don't. The government's job is to protect it's people, even if what they need protected from is greedy corporations and billionaires.

their job is to protect our rights not our jobs or paychecks,,,

youre thinking of fascist or communist countries,,,

Really? Did you forget "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"?

that has nothing to do with forcing others to provide for you against their will,,

Nobody is doing that. However they should be made to make up the difference between real wages and what they get away with paying the folks who's backs they ride to wealth.

what are real wages???

I live on less that 5K a yr right now and have no savings or pensions,, and next yrs looks like its gonna be worse,,

So you're homeless and hungry, yet you have internet?

 

[Rigby5]

Utter horseshit. Just ask a few landlords how easy it is to make money from rental property.

Why it's cheaper to buy on a 30-year mortgage or whatever the bank offers than it is to rent. People who are responsible for their own property keep it up and make it last longer.

No, the reason it is cheaper to buy than to rent is that there are tax laws deliberately designed to benefit the wealthy.
When you are landlord, you can write off all repairs, pay yourself, take depreciation, etc.
Renters get ZERO tax breaks at all, and banks won't give poor people a mortgage, even if they can prove they have never defaulted on their rent.
The tax laws and bank practices are incredibly discriminatory, unfair, and fraudulent.

 

[Winco]

Sure but that doesnt mean they should be punished.
A person making 163,301 pays 8% more in taxes than someone that made 163,300. Thats bullshit.

That is not true.
They pay the higher (32%) tax rate ONLY on that additional $1.
You should know this!

 

[WEATHER53]

Society did not permit the wealthy to become wealthy. Quit playing the finger pointing boo hoo victim Once Again. The wealthy mostly provided the opportunity for others to be employed and for others to benefit from their own labor (and we know libbies don’t like that “their Own Labor” stuff)

 

[progressive hunter]

They also give a lot of money and time, to charity.

As tax shelters.

who cares as long as they are paying it,,

anytime the people get more and the government gets less is a good thing,,

Except that isn't how it works out. There pay less, the government gets less, and the people they don't pay a living wage to get less to make up for it.

as long as the government gets less there is more for the company to pay employees,,

But they don't. The government's job is to protect it's people, even if what they need protected from is greedy corporations and billionaires.

their job is to protect our rights not our jobs or paychecks,,,

youre thinking of fascist or communist countries,,,

Really? Did you forget "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"?

that has nothing to do with forcing others to provide for you against their will,,

Nobody is doing that. However they should be made to make up the difference between real wages and what they get away with paying the folks who's backs they ride to wealth.

what are real wages???

I live on less that 5K a yr right now and have no savings or pensions,, and next yrs looks like its gonna be worse,,

So you're homeless and hungry, yet you have internet?

nope,, I have a 12 acre farm and 150K of tools along with 300K in assets,,,

what are real wages??

 

[Canon Shooter]

But "the society around them" has the same opportunity.

That doesn't convince me that the most successful shouldn't pay more.

Nor has your argument convinced anyone that they should.

A scenario: You and I are given the exact same opportunity to achieve a certain level of wealth.

I decide to work really, really hard to achieve that wealth. My hard work pays off and I become wealthy.

You, on the other hand, vacillate over whether or not you want to invest the time and effort to achieve that certain level of wealth. You try, but you decide you just don't have the patience for it, and you decide that you're not going to work hard to achieve that wealth. Consequently, you find yourself far less successful than me, despite being afforded the exact same opportunity.

Why should I pay more in taxes than you?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

The wrong question.

The right question is how much does society owe to the billionaires that create needed goods and services and created thousands of jobs?

Like Bill Gates. From nothing he created the software empire that enabled the computer age and in the process employed many thousands of people.

We owe him a lot more than he owes us.

True, although he should have given a few bucks to Steve Jobs.

Why? What does Microsoft have to do with Apple?

 

[justinacolmena]

No, the reason it is cheaper to buy than to rent is that there are tax laws deliberately designed to benefit the wealthy.
When you are landlord, you can write off all repairs, pay yourself, take depreciation, etc.

Then buy and don't rent. You'll be wealthier and better off for not wasting your money.

 

[WEATHER53]

Surely something, right? I see a lot of people talk like taxes are theft. Is it not just our obligation?

Shoe on the wrong foot, cart before the horse-this is the failed liberal mentality that just got elected.

 

[Anomalism]

Nor has your argument convinced anyone that they should.

A scenario: You and I are given the exact same opportunity to achieve a certain level of wealth.

I decide to work really, really hard to achieve that wealth. My hard work pays off and I become wealthy.

You, on the other hand, vacillate over whether or not you want to invest the time and effort to achieve that certain level of wealth. You try, but you decide you just don't have the patience for it, and you decide that you're not going to work hard to achieve that wealth. Consequently, you find yourself far less successful than me, despite being afforded the exact same opportunity.

Why should I pay more in taxes than you?

I am very familiar with how conservatives think. My grandfather and great grandfather made sure of that.

 

[norwegen]

Surely something, right? I see a lot of people talk like taxes are theft. Is it not just our obligation?

They owe the same amount that unsuccessful people owe, who had the same chances.

 

[Anomalism]

Shoe on the wrong foot, cart before the horse-this is the failed liberal mentality that just got elected.

Joe Biden is a useless stooge.

 

[Rigby5]

What would make you happy? Hanging them from trees?

I have rich people in my family. I'm not Karl Marx.

Karl Marx was wealthy.
He was trying to figure out how to deal with the fact the industrial revolution was destroying cottage industries, that was then causing massive loss of rights and freedom.
It was causing economic slavery.
We had in the US around the turn of the century, company towns.
But anti trust laws and unions proved to be the solutions.