how much warming from adding carbon dioxide to the atmosphere is what we

[Abraham3]

CO2 is toxic at 1/10th atmosphere. The toxicity of oxygen has fuck-all to do with this topic. The toxicity of CO2 also has fuck-all to do with this topic, but at least its the chemical under discussion.

Again - do you claim that carbon dioxide does not absorb infrared radiation?

TRanslation = socko is in trouble so he diverts while asking another question....

CO2 reacts to IR, sure, it just can't defy the laws of physics and warm it's own heat source further...That's a perfect machine socko...

The topic of this thread is the climate's sensitivity to CO2. How could you possibly think my statement was a "diversion"?

I've got to be honest. You (GSlack) were the first person I put on my ignore list but I'm occasionally coerced by events to read your output. Having done so - and having read the reactions you provoke - it astounds me that you continue to attempt to voice opinions about ANY of this stuff, or - most amazing of all - to criticize anyone else's scientific acumen. I have no idea what education you've actually been through in your lifetime, but I can assure you you're NOT well grounded in the sciences.

 

[SSDD]

TRanslation = socko is in trouble so he diverts while asking another question....

CO2 reacts to IR, sure, it just can't defy the laws of physics and warm it's own heat source further...That's a perfect machine socko...

All objects warmer than absolute zero radiate energy. They don't care what that energy falls on.[/QUOTE]

An all rocks that are dropped on planet earth fall to the ground. They don't care which way they fall, but they fall to the ground none the less because the force of gravity doesn't give them a choice.

All objects above absolute zero radiate, but none of them radiate to warmer objects because the force that governs energy movement doesn't make the option available.

 

[SSDD]

SSDD isn't going to save you on this. Radiant energy falling on a molecule energizes it regardless of it's kinetic energy. Moves electrons to a new level. It doesn't know or care where the energy came from.

That implies that the energy is moving spontaneously from a state of high entropy to a state of lower entropy. Is it your claim that energy can move spontaneously from a state of high entropy to a state of lower entropy? Easy yes or no question. What's your answer?

 

[orogenicman]

SSDD isn't going to save you on this. Radiant energy falling on a molecule energizes it regardless of it's kinetic energy. Moves electrons to a new level. It doesn't know or care where the energy came from.

That implies that the energy is moving spontaneously from a state of high entropy to a state of lower entropy. Is it your claim that energy can move spontaneously from a state of high entropy to a state of lower entropy? Easy yes or no question. What's your answer?

Adding energy to molecules can and does knock them to higher energy states. This happens in photosynthesis, for instance. This is first semester organic chemistry. You didn't know this? Huh.

 

[orogenicman]

All objects above absolute zero radiate, but none of them radiate to warmer objects because the force that governs energy movement doesn't make the option available.

The energy has to go somewhere. Where do you think it goes?

 

[Abraham3]

That implies that the energy is moving spontaneously from a state of high entropy to a state of lower entropy. Is it your claim that energy can move spontaneously from a state of high entropy to a state of lower entropy? Easy yes or no question. What's your answer?

You ask if it CAN? The answer is yes. Whether or not it is likely to do so is another question. And, oddly, the answer to that one would be based on statistics (and probability).

 

[PMZ]

Here are the reasons for, and mechanisms of, the absorption of electromagnetic radiation by GHGs, most notably CO2.

"All molecules have positive (nuclei) and negative (electron clouds) regions, A molecule is dipolar and has a permanent dipole moment, if the averaged centers of its positively and negatively charged regions do not coincide. If a vibrational motion of the molecule disturbs these averages, its dipole moment can change and an appropriate energy of IR radiation can be absorbed to cause this molecular vibration. As an example, consider the CO2 molecule. The more electronegative oxygen atoms attract electron density that makes the ends of the molecule slightly negative. The central carbon atom is therefore slightly positive, as represented in the diagram. Since the molecule is linear with equal bond lengths, the center of negative charge and the center of positive charge coincide at the central point, the carbon atom, and the molecule has no permanent dipole moment. The symmetrical stretching vibration, top representation, does not change this symmetry, does not change the dipole moment, and does not lead to IR absorption. The molecular bending vibrations, middle two representations, displace the negative charges away from the line of centers of the molecule and create a structure with a dipole moment. Thus, the dipole moment changes (from zero to some value) and these motions can be initiated by the absorption of IR radiation. This absorption gives rise to the prominent absorption band centered at about 15 μm. Likewise, for the asymmetric stretching vibration, bottom representation, the average bond lengths become unequal, which moves the positive and negative centers apart, creates a dipole moment, and leads to the IR absorptions at about 4 μm."

From: Properties

Notice the complete lack of temperature and entropy in the explanation.

Everyone has a choice. Either get educated enough to understand this quantum mechanics, or accept that the people who are so educated know this to be the explanation that defines what GHGs are and do.

 

[IanC]

TRanslation = socko is in trouble so he diverts while asking another question....

CO2 reacts to IR, sure, it just can't defy the laws of physics and warm it's own heat source further...That's a perfect machine socko...

All objects warmer than absolute zero radiate energy. They don't care what that energy falls on.

An all rocks that are dropped on planet earth fall to the ground. They don't care which way they fall, but they fall to the ground none the less because the force of gravity doesn't give them a choice.

All objects above absolute zero radiate, but none of them radiate to warmer objects because the force that governs energy movement doesn't make the option available.[/QUOTE]

You have a fundementally incorrect understanding of the second law. The quote in your signature is correct. There is no physical law that prohibits individual transfers of energy against the net flow. They happen all the time, especially when the temperature gradient is small. We have been over this a dozen times. Two objects at the same temperature do not stop radiating at each other, there I'd just no net flow. It is not like gravity or even like the flow of electrons in a wire. Photons are not like particles of matter.

 

[IanC]

Here are the reasons for, and mechanisms of, the absorption of electromagnetic radiation by GHGs, most notably CO2.

"All molecules have positive (nuclei) and negative (electron clouds) regions, A molecule is dipolar and has a permanent dipole moment, if the averaged centers of its positively and negatively charged regions do not coincide. If a vibrational motion of the molecule disturbs these averages, its dipole moment can change and an appropriate energy of IR radiation can be absorbed to cause this molecular vibration. As an example, consider the CO2 molecule. The more electronegative oxygen atoms attract electron density that makes the ends of the molecule slightly negative. The central carbon atom is therefore slightly positive, as represented in the diagram. Since the molecule is linear with equal bond lengths, the center of negative charge and the center of positive charge coincide at the central point, the carbon atom, and the molecule has no permanent dipole moment. The symmetrical stretching vibration, top representation, does not change this symmetry, does not change the dipole moment, and does not lead to IR absorption. The molecular bending vibrations, middle two representations, displace the negative charges away from the line of centers of the molecule and create a structure with a dipole moment. Thus, the dipole moment changes (from zero to some value) and these motions can be initiated by the absorption of IR radiation. This absorption gives rise to the prominent absorption band centered at about 15 μm. Likewise, for the asymmetric stretching vibration, bottom representation, the average bond lengths become unequal, which moves the positive and negative centers apart, creates a dipole moment, and leads to the IR absorptions at about 4 μm."

From: Properties

Notice the complete lack of temperature and entropy in the explanation.

Everyone has a choice. Either get educated enough to understand this quantum mechanics, or accept that the people who are so educated know this to be the explanation that defines what GHGs are and do.

Absorption/emission are not temperature dependent but there is a transfer of momentum that affects entropy. Temperature does affect the production of blackbody radiation.

 

[PMZ]

If one was doing studies on the flow of people through a train station, they would start by gathering data on the direction, range of speeds, and temporal distribution of people flow compared to, say, train arrivals and departures.

By statistical analysis the flow and logistics could be optimized.

Some of that analysis could be adequately served by looking at net flow. Other studies would need to consider the flow in each direction.

So with thermodynamics. Many times net flow of heat is adequate. Other times the flow in both directions is required for a given analysis.

Like GHG concentrations vs AGW for instance.

 

[SSDD]

All objects above absolute zero radiate, but none of them radiate to warmer objects because the force that governs energy movement doesn't make the option available.

The energy has to go somewhere. Where do you think it goes?

All dropped rocks must go somewhere. There is a force that determines where that is. There is also a force that determines where energy will flow and it isn't in the direction of less entropy.

 

[SSDD]

That implies that the energy is moving spontaneously from a state of high entropy to a state of lower entropy. Is it your claim that energy can move spontaneously from a state of high entropy to a state of lower entropy? Easy yes or no question. What's your answer?

You ask if it CAN? The answer is yes. Whether or not it is likely to do so is another question. And, oddly, the answer to that one would be based on statistics (and probability).

Prove that it can. The second law says it can't. Prove the second law wrong.

 

[SSDD]

Here are the reasons for, and mechanisms of, the absorption of electromagnetic radiation by GHGs, most notably CO2.

"All molecules have positive (nuclei) and negative (electron clouds) regions, A molecule is dipolar and has a permanent dipole moment, if the averaged centers of its positively and negatively charged regions do not coincide. If a vibrational motion of the molecule disturbs these averages, its dipole moment can change and an appropriate energy of IR radiation can be absorbed to cause this molecular vibration. As an example, consider the CO2 molecule. The more electronegative oxygen atoms attract electron density that makes the ends of the molecule slightly negative. The central carbon atom is therefore slightly positive, as represented in the diagram. Since the molecule is linear with equal bond lengths, the center of negative charge and the center of positive charge coincide at the central point, the carbon atom, and the molecule has no permanent dipole moment. The symmetrical stretching vibration, top representation, does not change this symmetry, does not change the dipole moment, and does not lead to IR absorption. The molecular bending vibrations, middle two representations, displace the negative charges away from the line of centers of the molecule and create a structure with a dipole moment. Thus, the dipole moment changes (from zero to some value) and these motions can be initiated by the absorption of IR radiation. This absorption gives rise to the prominent absorption band centered at about 15 μm. Likewise, for the asymmetric stretching vibration, bottom representation, the average bond lengths become unequal, which moves the positive and negative centers apart, creates a dipole moment, and leads to the IR absorptions at about 4 μm."

From: Properties

Notice the complete lack of temperature and entropy in the explanation.

Everyone has a choice. Either get educated enough to understand this quantum mechanics, or accept that the people who are so educated know this to be the explanation that defines what GHGs are and do.

There never has been an argument that CO2 doesn't absorb IR. The argument is whether that absorption leads to AGW.

 

[SSDD]

TRanslation = socko is in trouble so he diverts while asking another question....

CO2 reacts to IR, sure, it just can't defy the laws of physics and warm it's own heat source further...That's a perfect machine socko...

All objects warmer than absolute zero radiate energy. They don't care what that energy falls on.

An all rocks that are dropped on planet earth fall to the ground. They don't care which way they fall, but they fall to the ground none the less because the force of gravity doesn't give them a choice.

All objects above absolute zero radiate, but none of them radiate to warmer objects because the force that governs energy movement doesn't make the option available.

You have a fundementally incorrect understanding of the second law. The quote in your signature is correct. There is no physical law that prohibits individual transfers of energy against the net flow. They happen all the time, especially when the temperature gradient is small. We have been over this a dozen times. Two objects at the same temperature do not stop radiating at each other, there I'd just no net flow. It is not like gravity or even like the flow of electrons in a wire. Photons are not like particles of matter.[/QUOTE]

Dozens of times and still not the first bit of actual observed evidence.

 

[PMZ]

That implies that the energy is moving spontaneously from a state of high entropy to a state of lower entropy. Is it your claim that energy can move spontaneously from a state of high entropy to a state of lower entropy? Easy yes or no question. What's your answer?

You ask if it CAN? The answer is yes. Whether or not it is likely to do so is another question. And, oddly, the answer to that one would be based on statistics (and probability).

Prove that it can. The second law says it can't. Prove the second law wrong.

You say that the second law says it can't. As the second law is not quantum mechanics, the truth is, that it has nothing to say about the behavior of individual molecules relative to radiative energy.

 

[PMZ]

Here are the reasons for, and mechanisms of, the absorption of electromagnetic radiation by GHGs, most notably CO2.

"All molecules have positive (nuclei) and negative (electron clouds) regions, A molecule is dipolar and has a permanent dipole moment, if the averaged centers of its positively and negatively charged regions do not coincide. If a vibrational motion of the molecule disturbs these averages, its dipole moment can change and an appropriate energy of IR radiation can be absorbed to cause this molecular vibration. As an example, consider the CO2 molecule. The more electronegative oxygen atoms attract electron density that makes the ends of the molecule slightly negative. The central carbon atom is therefore slightly positive, as represented in the diagram. Since the molecule is linear with equal bond lengths, the center of negative charge and the center of positive charge coincide at the central point, the carbon atom, and the molecule has no permanent dipole moment. The symmetrical stretching vibration, top representation, does not change this symmetry, does not change the dipole moment, and does not lead to IR absorption. The molecular bending vibrations, middle two representations, displace the negative charges away from the line of centers of the molecule and create a structure with a dipole moment. Thus, the dipole moment changes (from zero to some value) and these motions can be initiated by the absorption of IR radiation. This absorption gives rise to the prominent absorption band centered at about 15 μm. Likewise, for the asymmetric stretching vibration, bottom representation, the average bond lengths become unequal, which moves the positive and negative centers apart, creates a dipole moment, and leads to the IR absorptions at about 4 μm."

From: Properties

Notice the complete lack of temperature and entropy in the explanation.

Everyone has a choice. Either get educated enough to understand this quantum mechanics, or accept that the people who are so educated know this to be the explanation that defines what GHGs are and do.

There never has been an argument that CO2 doesn't absorb IR. The argument is whether that absorption leads to AGW.

The absorption doesn't lead to AGW. The subsequent reradiation in all directions does, as it prevents half of the IR absorbed from leaving the planetary system and instead, directs it down to land, water and ice where it adds to solar irradiance.

 

[orogenicman]

All objects above absolute zero radiate, but none of them radiate to warmer objects because the force that governs energy movement doesn't make the option available.

The energy has to go somewhere. Where do you think it goes?

All dropped rocks must go somewhere. There is a force that determines where that is. There is also a force that determines where energy will flow and it isn't in the direction of less entropy.

Okay, so where does it go?

 

[SSDD]

The energy has to go somewhere. Where do you think it goes?

All dropped rocks must go somewhere. There is a force that determines where that is. There is also a force that determines where energy will flow and it isn't in the direction of less entropy.

Okay, so where does it go?

Precisely where the second law says it must go...in the direction of more entropy. Every observation ever made, every experiment ever done verifies that fundamental fact...ergo, the second LAW of thermodynamics.

 

[PMZ]

All dropped rocks must go somewhere. There is a force that determines where that is. There is also a force that determines where energy will flow and it isn't in the direction of less entropy.

Okay, so where does it go?

Precisely where the second law says it must go...in the direction of more entropy. Every observation ever made, every experiment ever done verifies that fundamental fact...ergo, the second LAW of thermodynamics.

The second law does not apply at the molecular level any more than a statistical inference predicts exactly the behavior of any individual.

And this will remain true no matter how many times you claim the opposite.

 

[SSDD]

Okay, so where does it go?

Precisely where the second law says it must go...in the direction of more entropy. Every observation ever made, every experiment ever done verifies that fundamental fact...ergo, the second LAW of thermodynamics.

The second law does not apply at the molecular level any more than a statistical inference predicts exactly the behavior of any individual.

So you say. Now prove it. Lets see the empirical evidence. What's that you say? There is none; and you have acceped it as an article of faith.

And this will remain true no matter how many times you claim the opposite.

What will remain true is that there isn't even the smallest bit of empirical evidence to support the claim. What will also remain true is that the belief, is an act of faith on your part...an act of faith in accepting a thing that has not, nor can not be proven. The same sort of faith that those who believe in a 6000 year old earth express. Congratulations.