I was wrong... the health of the mother is not valid for an abortion.

[Asclepias]

You have no right to life if youre not a person.

you mean like some claimed blacks were not human,,,

thats a legal issue not a scientific fact,,,

science tells us life begins at conception,,,

Legality is what defines if something is murder or not. I agree life begins at conception. The point is when does the wishes of the host become less important than the fetus (which cant live without that host)?

24 weeks........ except in Virginia.

24 weeks before or after conception?

24 weeks of development as a fetus the conception thing is important but actual weeks of development determine if a baby can survive out of the womb. All States except Virginia have the cut off at or around 24 weeks of course places like California New York and Illinois ignore the 24 week rule routinely, that's why we have 13000 babies killed a year after the 24 week deadline.

13K vs how many babies that are actually born?

 

[progressive hunter]

you mean like some claimed blacks were not human,,,

thats a legal issue not a scientific fact,,,

science tells us life begins at conception,,,

Legality is what defines if something is murder or not. I agree life begins at conception. The point is when does the wishes of the host become less important than the fetus (which cant live without that host)?

24 weeks........ except in Virginia.

24 weeks before or after conception?

24 weeks of development as a fetus the conception thing is important but actual weeks of development determine if a baby can survive out of the womb. All States except Virginia have the cut off at or around 24 weeks of course places like California New York and Illinois ignore the 24 week rule routinely, that's why we have 13000 babies killed a year after the 24 week deadline.

13K vs how many babies that are actually born?

who cares how many were born,,13K children were killed and most for no reason other than inconvenience,,,

 

[Asclepias]

Legality is what defines if something is murder or not. I agree life begins at conception. The point is when does the wishes of the host become less important than the fetus (which cant live without that host)?

24 weeks........ except in Virginia.

24 weeks before or after conception?

24 weeks of development as a fetus the conception thing is important but actual weeks of development determine if a baby can survive out of the womb. All States except Virginia have the cut off at or around 24 weeks of course places like California New York and Illinois ignore the 24 week rule routinely, that's why we have 13000 babies killed a year after the 24 week deadline.

13K vs how many babies that are actually born?

who cares how many were born,,13K children were killed and most for no reason other than inconvenience,,,

I care. Thats why I asked you. How many children were born vs how many unwanted were killed.

 

[progressive hunter]

24 weeks........ except in Virginia.

24 weeks before or after conception?

24 weeks of development as a fetus the conception thing is important but actual weeks of development determine if a baby can survive out of the womb. All States except Virginia have the cut off at or around 24 weeks of course places like California New York and Illinois ignore the 24 week rule routinely, that's why we have 13000 babies killed a year after the 24 week deadline.

13K vs how many babies that are actually born?

who cares how many were born,,13K children were killed and most for no reason other than inconvenience,,,

I care. Thats why I asked you. How many children were born vs how many unwanted were killed.

why you care eludes rational thought,,,the fact is 13K children were killed due to them being an inconvenience,,,

 

[Asclepias]

24 weeks before or after conception?

24 weeks of development as a fetus the conception thing is important but actual weeks of development determine if a baby can survive out of the womb. All States except Virginia have the cut off at or around 24 weeks of course places like California New York and Illinois ignore the 24 week rule routinely, that's why we have 13000 babies killed a year after the 24 week deadline.

13K vs how many babies that are actually born?

who cares how many were born,,13K children were killed and most for no reason other than inconvenience,,,

I care. Thats why I asked you. How many children were born vs how many unwanted were killed.

why you care eludes rational thought,,,the fact is 13K children were killed due to them being an inconvenience,,,

Its rational to care about the kids that are here alive and trying to live in this world. I'm not wasting time worrying about some aborted kid no one wanted and cons are not willing to pay for despite their objections.

 

[there4eyeM]

24 weeks of development as a fetus the conception thing is important but actual weeks of development determine if a baby can survive out of the womb. All States except Virginia have the cut off at or around 24 weeks of course places like California New York and Illinois ignore the 24 week rule routinely, that's why we have 13000 babies killed a year after the 24 week deadline.

13K vs how many babies that are actually born?

who cares how many were born,,13K children were killed and most for no reason other than inconvenience,,,

I care. Thats why I asked you. How many children were born vs how many unwanted were killed.

why you care eludes rational thought,,,the fact is 13K children were killed due to them being an inconvenience,,,

Its rational to care about the kids that are here alive and trying to live in this world. I'm not wasting time worrying about some aborted kid no one wanted and cons are not willing to pay for despite their objections.

Rational? Those you are addressing here are not concerned with being rational. They are concerned with bleating about their half-baked ideas of existence. Bleating about life and rights as if they understood the terms. They squeak about individual liberty and responsibility without the slightest reflection on the profound meaning. You won't convince them of anything. They are proverbial cups overflowing.

 

[progressive hunter]

24 weeks of development as a fetus the conception thing is important but actual weeks of development determine if a baby can survive out of the womb. All States except Virginia have the cut off at or around 24 weeks of course places like California New York and Illinois ignore the 24 week rule routinely, that's why we have 13000 babies killed a year after the 24 week deadline.

13K vs how many babies that are actually born?

who cares how many were born,,13K children were killed and most for no reason other than inconvenience,,,

I care. Thats why I asked you. How many children were born vs how many unwanted were killed.

why you care eludes rational thought,,,the fact is 13K children were killed due to them being an inconvenience,,,

Its rational to care about the kids that are here alive and trying to live in this world. I'm not wasting time worrying about some aborted kid no one wanted and cons are not willing to pay for despite their objections.

at least you admit that they are children you want killed and not some blob of cells,,,

 

[Coyote]

Again, anyone who sincerely felt abortion were murder would confront the situation directly and accept the consequences. Go lie down in front of a clinic where abortions are performed, for example. Those who do not feel that sincerely will not confront the situation and will not accept the consequences of running off at the mouth.
It does not appear true that anyone is for abortion. It is clear that most of us are for education, avoiding unwanted pregnancies, maximum in care for children (such as universal healthcare), not dropping bombs on civilians, not dispensing tiny landmines, ceasing to pollute air, water, soil and, especially, minds.

Or...better yet, go tell the woman you want to help her, and mean, and be there for her....including after the birth.

 

[Coyote]

Who should decide? A bunch of strange men who know nothing about them?

A certified Doctor that has no business associated with abortions.

Why would having "no business associated with abortions" be a better candidate? Why would this person be more trusted by a woman? The doctors in Ireland let a woman die. The loss of her life led to the change of law in Ireland.

An abortion doctor has a vested INTEREST in DOING an abortion you know that I know that and it is a conflict of interest. Most states say 24 weeks is cut off yet we have 11000 to 13000 late term abortions a year. I wonder how many were because an ABORTION doctor claimed something that simply wasn't true.

This whole discussion makes no sense. The medical profession does not operate along the lines of "vested interests" or "conflict of interest." You are talking as if doctors simply run businesses. There is no such thing as an "abortion doctor." People who are in a condition to need a late-term abortion are in a hospital, where they are cared for by whoever is on duty; medical professionals who monitor the patients and have to make snap decisions when an emergency occurs. Medicine is very different than repairing cars in some garage. If a patient is crashing, they have to go into high gear. The people who staff hospitals are medical professionals, and they work in shifts: 12 to 8, 8 to 4, 4 to 12.

Why do these anti-abortion types pretend to know about medicine and want to interfere with the treatment of patients in a life-or-death situation? We don't need ignorance in our hospitals.

Once again, you're talking out your ass merely to bolster your disgusting, sociopathic, inhuman, infanticidal filth, and the thing is, you know it; i.e., you know you're talking out your ass about something you really have no solid grasp of. There is never any medical reason to abort a pregnancy for the purpose of saving the mother's life except in the case of ectopic pregnancies. The only other caveat goes to serious complications just prior to viability, and that entails a very complex juncture that may only technically amount to an abortion simply because the developing child is not viable, a situation that amounts to a fraction of one percent of pregnancies, and even in that instance the baby is not aborted as such; rather, the pregnancy is terminated via induced labor. My wife and I know all about this issue in terms of options precisely because we looked at it before attempting to conceive so that we would be armed to make the very best decision that honored God and the sanctity of human life in the event we encountered a problematic pregnancy.

....there is never any medical reason to abort a pregnancy to save a woman’s life....

What Life is Like When Abortion is Banned
In the Dominican Republic, I spoke with Rosa Hernández, whose daughter Rosaura Almonte Hernández, known as “Esperancita,” was diagnosed with leukemia. Doctors initially denied her chemotherapy because she was pregnant, and then refused to end the pregnancy because to do so would have been against the law. She died in 2012 at age 16. “They let my daughter die,” her mother told me.


They had abortions late in their pregnancies. These are their stories - CNN

Abortion saved my life

 

[Coyote]

Youre the one that said people should be put to death. Whats stupid is you making the claim that abortion is murder when you obviously have no idea that in order to be murder you have to be convicted of a crime. Youre a fool and a hypocrite to boot.

Abortion is the killing of innocent human beings. And it was you who suggested that “overpopulation” is a valid excuse for putting innocent people to death. I do not think that any sane person could possibly agree with you that innocent people should be killed to mitigate “overpopulation”. But if you think people should be killed for this purpose, then what is so special about you, that you shouldn't be at the front of the line, setting the example to support your position?

Fetuses arent people. That misunderstanding right there is the basis of faulty and stagnant logic.

At 24 weeks a "fetus" IS a person by all medical definitions.

Most people dont get an abortion after 24 weeks dingle berry.

Exactly. It counts for 1% of all abortions.

 

[Ringtone]

Do you and your "wife" actually live the way that you sound? No decent person talks this way. Only a mental case does. I do not know this woman with whom you have sex. Her selection of you does not speak well of her character, however.

Our character is in question?! Out of nowhere you respond to a factual, well-informed, reasoned and balanced observation regarding the actualities of medical care for problematic pregnancies that either actually or in effect constitute an abortion with this rash of gibberish:

Great. This is your cult. You and the female you screw.
​

I am breaking down, explaining precisely what the ACOG is talking about in the quote provided by COYOTE:

The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) refuted that idea in a statement released this week, stating that pregnant women may experience conditions such as “premature rupture of membranes and infection, preeclampsia, placental abruption, and placenta accreta” late in pregnancy that may endanger their lives.

“Women in these circumstances may risk extensive blood loss, stroke, and septic shock that could lead to maternal death. Politicians must never require a doctor to wait for a medical condition to worsen and become life-threatening before being able to provide evidence-based care to their patients, including an abortion,” the ACOG said.​

Note that the first paragraph of that statement is misleading due to the fact that the author is either woefully ill-informed or spinning. The ACOG is not refuting the reality that elective abortions as such are never necessary to save the life of the mother. There's nothing elective about terminating problematic pregnancies wherein neither the child nor the mother can survive. The pregnancy must be terminated. The baby's life cannot be saved! The emphasis goes to the termination of the pregnancy, not the termination of the baby's life. Unfortunately and unavoidably the termination of the pregnancy also means the termination of the child's life as only the life of the mother can be saved.

It is absolutely never necessary to abort the baby--kill it!--in order to save the mother's life in the late second and the third trimesters. More to the point, abortions are never performed in response to serious, life-threatening complications at these stages of pregnancy. Fact! This is what the OP is talking about, not the relatively rare instances of ectopic pregnancies that must be terminated via a chemical abortion or the instances of induced miscarriages/labor for the sole purpose of evacuating the womb prior to viability, abortion procedures in effect wherein the child cannot be saved. However, it is very rare that the kind of life-threatening complications listed in the above occur before the child can survive outside the womb. Late-term pregnancies that encounter serious complications are never terminated with abortions! Abortions in these instances would be dangerous, killing mothers left and right, not life-saving.

Hence, as I have written in three other posts regarding the various nuances of the matter:

The notion that any pregnancy besides ectopic pregnancies must be aborted to safeguard the mother's life is a myth, a lie, the political hysteria, the demagoguery of the infanticidal left. Perhaps in the near future medical technology will advance to the point where we can safely and successfully transplant a fertilized ovum lodged in the fallopian tubes, but we're not there yet. An ectopic pregnancy cannot come to term, and must be terminated via a chemically induced abortion.. It is the only pregnancy that must be aborted as such for the sake of the mother's health, to save her life. The baby cannot be saved.​

Again here where I outline the caveat, regarding terminations that are in effect abortions prior to viability, those instances when the mother does not favorably respond to the prescribed treatment of serious, life-threatening complications. Again, the actuality is not an elective abortion as such, but a termination of the pregnancy wherein only the mother's life can be saved.

There is never any medical reason to abort a pregnancy for the purpose of saving the mother's life except in the case of ectopic pregnancies. The only other caveat goes to serious complications just prior to viability, and that entails a very complex juncture that may only technically amount to an abortion simply because the developing child is not viable, a situation that amounts to a fraction of one percent of pregnancies, and even in that instance the baby is not aborted as such; rather, the pregnancy is terminated via induced labor. My wife and I know all about this issue in terms of options precisely because we looked at it before attempting to conceive so that we would be armed to make the very best decision that honored God and the sanctity of human life in the event we encountered a problematic pregnancy.
​

And finally:

Yes, I'm absolutely certain. Late-term terminations of pregnancies for health reasons do not entail abortions at all even though the premi may not survive. The goal is to save the lives of both the child and the mother. There's no such thing as late-term abortions for health reasons. Late-term abortions require several hours of prep in terms of dilation and removal; they involve the use of toxins, invasive, time-consuming procedures. If there is an immediate threat to the life of the mother, you don't walk her into an abortion clinic. She's not walking anywhere. She's in trama, and a hospital sure as hell is not going to wait to perform an abortion! If necessary the physician will either immediately induce labor if possible--the safest, least intrusive option--or immediately perform a C-section. But in most cases, you don't even get to this sort of drama as the very first and safest option is going to involve treatment to stabilize/neutralize the condition and safely bring the pregnancy to term, ending in outpatient treatment and monitoring.
​

This is precisely why I never talk about this issue in terms of opposing abortion as such. There are in fact instances wherein abortion is a medically and morally legitimate, indeed, necessary, procedure. This is why I always make a distinction between abortions as such and abortions on demand, the latter being utterly unnecessary, evil, murder, the stuff of convenience, narcissism, baby-killing as birth control, my-body-my choice bullshit.

​

 

[Asclepias]

Again, anyone who sincerely felt abortion were murder would confront the situation directly and accept the consequences. Go lie down in front of a clinic where abortions are performed, for example. Those who do not feel that sincerely will not confront the situation and will not accept the consequences of running off at the mouth.
It does not appear true that anyone is for abortion. It is clear that most of us are for education, avoiding unwanted pregnancies, maximum in care for children (such as universal healthcare), not dropping bombs on civilians, not dispensing tiny landmines, ceasing to pollute air, water, soil and, especially, minds.

Or...better yet, go tell the woman you want to help her, and mean, and be there for her....including after the birth.

That would take too much time away from their staged, self righteous outrage.

 

[Coyote]

Again, anyone who sincerely felt abortion were murder would confront the situation directly and accept the consequences. Go lie down in front of a clinic where abortions are performed, for example. Those who do not feel that sincerely will not confront the situation and will not accept the consequences of running off at the mouth.
It does not appear true that anyone is for abortion. It is clear that most of us are for education, avoiding unwanted pregnancies, maximum in care for children (such as universal healthcare), not dropping bombs on civilians, not dispensing tiny landmines, ceasing to pollute air, water, soil and, especially, minds.

Or...better yet, go tell the woman you want to help her, and mean, and be there for her....including after the birth.

That would take too much time away from their staged, self righteous outrage.

What I find odd is this. When it comes to religious freedom, free speech, guns, minimal big govmint..the rightwingers are all up in arms. But when it comes to a woman’s right to her body and reproductive rights....it is the complete opposite.

They even go so far as to pretend it is all about her health.

 

[progressive hunter]

Again, anyone who sincerely felt abortion were murder would confront the situation directly and accept the consequences. Go lie down in front of a clinic where abortions are performed, for example. Those who do not feel that sincerely will not confront the situation and will not accept the consequences of running off at the mouth.
It does not appear true that anyone is for abortion. It is clear that most of us are for education, avoiding unwanted pregnancies, maximum in care for children (such as universal healthcare), not dropping bombs on civilians, not dispensing tiny landmines, ceasing to pollute air, water, soil and, especially, minds.

Or...better yet, go tell the woman you want to help her, and mean, and be there for her....including after the birth.

That would take too much time away from their staged, self righteous outrage.

What I find odd is this. When it comes to religious freedom, free speech, guns, minimal big govmint..the rightwingers are all up in arms. But when it comes to a woman’s right to her body and reproductive rights....it is the complete opposite.

They even go so far as to pretend it is all about her health.

when did anyone say it was about the womens health??

its about a childs life,,,
and she already reproduced when she got pregnant,,,

 

[Ringtone]

What I find odd is this. When it comes to religious freedom, free speech, guns, minimal big govmint..the rightwingers are all up in arms. But when it comes to a woman’s right to her body and reproductive rights....it is the complete opposite.

They even go so far as to pretend it is all about her health.

Only a sick and twisted, morally, philosophically, theologically and politically retarded person understands abortion on demand to be a legitimate facet of liberty. Liberty can only be sustained on the predicates of the sanctity of human life and private property, and there is no reproduction in abortion on demand, you silly, slogan-spouting nitwit. It's, you know, the opposite of reproduction as well as the opposite of liberty.

Murder is not liberty; it's murder.

 

[Asclepias]

What I find odd is this. When it comes to religious freedom, free speech, guns, minimal big govmint..the rightwingers are all up in arms. But when it comes to a woman’s right to her body and reproductive rights....it is the complete opposite.

They even go so far as to pretend it is all about her health.

Only a sick and twisted, morally, philosophically, theologically and politically retarded person understands abortion on demand to be a legitimate facet of liberty. Liberty can only be sustained on the predicates of the sanctity of human life and property rights, and there is no reproduction in abortion on demand, you silly, slogan-spouting nitwit. It's, you know, the opposite of reproduction as well as the opposite of liberty.

Murder is not liberty; it's murder.

You fucking fool. Murder is a legal term no matter how much you want to gloss over that.

 

[progressive hunter]

What I find odd is this. When it comes to religious freedom, free speech, guns, minimal big govmint..the rightwingers are all up in arms. But when it comes to a woman’s right to her body and reproductive rights....it is the complete opposite.

They even go so far as to pretend it is all about her health.

Only a sick and twisted, morally, philosophically, theologically and politically retarded person understands abortion on demand to be a legitimate facet of liberty. Liberty can only be sustained on the predicates of the sanctity of human life and property rights, and there is no reproduction in abortion on demand, you silly, slogan-spouting nitwit. It's, you know, the opposite of reproduction as well as the opposite of liberty.

Murder is not liberty; it's murder.

You fucking fool. Murder is a legal term no matter how much you want to gloss over that.

you fucking fool,,, murder is when you kill another human and has been around longer than any court or legal system,,,

 

[Ringtone]

You fucking fool. Murder is a legal term no matter how much you want to gloss over that.

You silly ass, murder is first and foremostly a moral term; the degrees of murder go to legal distinctions, which themselves are ultimately informed by the underlying moral concerns. Your premise is bullshit. Your logic is bullshit. Your argument is bullshit. Your bullshit is bullshit.

You're dismissed. Now go back to your corner and play with the doo-doo in your diapers.

 

[Asclepias]

What I find odd is this. When it comes to religious freedom, free speech, guns, minimal big govmint..the rightwingers are all up in arms. But when it comes to a woman’s right to her body and reproductive rights....it is the complete opposite.

They even go so far as to pretend it is all about her health.

Only a sick and twisted, morally, philosophically, theologically and politically retarded person understands abortion on demand to be a legitimate facet of liberty. Liberty can only be sustained on the predicates of the sanctity of human life and property rights, and there is no reproduction in abortion on demand, you silly, slogan-spouting nitwit. It's, you know, the opposite of reproduction as well as the opposite of liberty.

Murder is not liberty; it's murder.

You fucking fool. Murder is a legal term no matter how much you want to gloss over that.

you fucking fool,,, murder is when you kill another human and has been around longer than any court or legal system,,,

You fucking idiot plenty of people get killed by another human. If I shoot and kill someone that attacked me did I commit murder?

 

[progressive hunter]

What I find odd is this. When it comes to religious freedom, free speech, guns, minimal big govmint..the rightwingers are all up in arms. But when it comes to a woman’s right to her body and reproductive rights....it is the complete opposite.

They even go so far as to pretend it is all about her health.

Only a sick and twisted, morally, philosophically, theologically and politically retarded person understands abortion on demand to be a legitimate facet of liberty. Liberty can only be sustained on the predicates of the sanctity of human life and property rights, and there is no reproduction in abortion on demand, you silly, slogan-spouting nitwit. It's, you know, the opposite of reproduction as well as the opposite of liberty.

Murder is not liberty; it's murder.

You fucking fool. Murder is a legal term no matter how much you want to gloss over that.

you fucking fool,,, murder is when you kill another human and has been around longer than any court or legal system,,,

You fucking idiot plenty of people get killed by another human. If I shoot someone that attacked me did I commit murder?

thats homicide and a different subject,,,do try and keep up,,,