Idaho toddler shoots mother dead in Walmart store.

[Brain357]

keep in mind Brain...the 238 number...came from Joe...who knows where he got it from....

Fbi stats say for 2010 there were 278 justifiable homicides during a crime. They wouldn't all be with a gun so the number looks accurate.
FBI mdash Expanded Homicide Data

 

[2aguy]

That is some good info...and out of an average of 1.6 million defensive uses of guns....it also shows how much restraint law abiding citizens have and how much criminals don't want to be shot.

 

[2aguy]

Here is the breakdown with another FBI table for felons killed by victims....the total for the ones killed with guns is smaller than 278...278 is for all methods not just guns...

FBI mdash Expanded Homicide Data Table 15

 

[Vandalshandle]

As a matter of fact, I was threatened with a handgun...by a family member. he had every intention of killing me, but was too drunk to load the gun. I know damned well that he was serious, because he used it to kill himself less than a month later. I just don't choose to go through life in terror and fear. Frankly, I feel sorry for those of you who do. It is more understandable for a woman who has been raped, but for a guy to feel like he can not leave his gun in his car when he goes in to Starbucks...well, pity is the best world that I can use.

I pity people that think they know everyone else's mind. It really is a special kind of stupid.

Well, it is true, Ice, that I only ASSUMED that you would feel the need to carry a loaded weapon into a busy urban store was completely for defensive purposes. However, I don't know you, so, yeah, perhaps your motive is not defensive at all.

 

[2aguy]

Now the violence policy center has the number over 1000, they are an anti gun group and for some reason are as irritated that the number of criminals killed by civilians isn't higher....just like Joe....

From the violence policy center...


Do Good Guys With Guns Stop Bad Guys The Violence Policy Center Says No Mike Weisser

 

[2aguy]

Now the violence policy center has the number over 1000, they are an anti gun group and for some reason are as irritated that the number of criminals killed by civilians isn't higher....just like Joe....

From the violence policy center...


Do Good Guys With Guns Stop Bad Guys The Violence Policy Center Says No Mike Weisser

of course, the story itself is dumb because good guys with guns actually do stop violent criminals, both as military and police and by civilians....who do they think stops violent criminals.....and what do they think they use...pixie dust?

 

[2aguy]

As a matter of fact, I was threatened with a handgun...by a family member. he had every intention of killing me, but was too drunk to load the gun. I know damned well that he was serious, because he used it to kill himself less than a month later. I just don't choose to go through life in terror and fear. Frankly, I feel sorry for those of you who do. It is more understandable for a woman who has been raped, but for a guy to feel like he can not leave his gun in his car when he goes in to Starbucks...well, pity is the best world that I can use.

I pity people that think they know everyone else's mind. It really is a special kind of stupid.

Well, it is true, Ice, that I only ASSUMED that you would feel the need to carry a loaded weapon into a busy urban store was completely for defensive purposes. However, I don't know you, so, yeah, perhaps your motive is not defensive at all.

See vandal...you are thinking like a lib....he was pointing out that he doesn't carry in a state of fear and terror, probably doesn't even think about the he gun as he is walking around....you obviously put the worst motivation on him...typical lib....

 

[2aguy]

Now the violence policy center has the number over 1000, they are an anti gun group and for some reason are as irritated that the number of criminals killed by civilians isn't higher....just like Joe....

From the violence policy center...


Do Good Guys With Guns Stop Bad Guys The Violence Policy Center Says No Mike Weisser

they seem to equate good guys stopping bad guys as only real when they kill the bad guy....you lobs,sure like killing don't you? they also put no weight to the concept that good guys, more often than not, stop bad guys by simply displaying the weapon,mdrawing and pointing the weapon,holding the criminal at gunpoint till the police arrive, or shooting and merely wounding the criminal.

 

[Brain357]

That is some good info...and out of an average of 1.6 million defensive uses of guns....it also shows how much restraint law abiding citizens have and how much criminals don't want to be shot.

Except the 1.6 million is pure fantasy. Just how many positive responses were received to arrive at that number?

 

[2aguy]

yeah...I re read the huff po piece about the Violence Policy Center numbers and yeah...they don't even consider or even mention the fact that you don't have to kill a criminal to stop them from committing a crime....

what is it with you anti gunners that you can't grasp that simple concept.....

I know what it is....in your fevered brains you just know that having a gun on your person means you will automatically shoot to kill whenever someone looks at you the wrong way...that you won't be able to stop yourself from killing once you have the gun in your hand....

See,Mathis just confirms that lobs,are,really afraid of people....that is why they desperately want to control them....fear.....but they know that they can't control criminals, so they try to control normal people instead....and one way to control normal people....they can prevent them from owning guns.....since, to a lib, normal people are something to be feared because the lib thinks normal people are unable to control their behavior and are even more dangerous with a gun...

 

[2aguy]

I'll get the Kleck study...one of the 19 that has the numbers easily available.....I'll get it later.

but if I remember correctly, he called 4,999 people, and asked them specifically if they used a gun in the last year to stop a crime......he had 200 people, I think, respond yes to that question...and it had to be in the last year...and they called them back to confirm the information....and then using research methods they extrapolated that to upwards of 2.5 million gun uses a year.....

2 other studies put the number at 3 million and then the Obama, CDC study acknowledged between 500,000 and 3 million....but Kleck's study is not an outlier of the 19 studies....the NCVS is though...

 

[Skull Pilot]

You would need a functioning brain to understand the point. The fact that someone screws up with a gun doesn't change anything for me and I matter to me much more than you matter to me. Have a kid walk you through that until you understand it.

Well more people screw up with a gun than shoot and kill criminals. If you are ok with that fine, but it doesn't say much for guns being anti crime. You are also far more likely to be shot if you have a gun.
Carrying a gun increases risk of getting shot and killed - science-in-society - 06 October 2009 - New Scientist

Now if you are aware of those things and still choose to carry, then good luck to you. Lets just keep the debate honest and not make it sound like carrying a gun makes you safer. I wont claim that driving a car makes you safer, but it sure has a lot of benefits.

OK now please post the numbers that prove there are more accidental gun deaths than there are guns used in self defense.

Now don't forget to count all the times a gun is used and not fired

Why would I compare deaths to defenses? Murder is a very small percent of crime, so the vast majority of defenses aren't defending murder. Also a large number of defenses probably didn't require a gun.

Hey YOU said that there are more accidental gun deaths than instances of guns used in self defense.

So fucking prove it.

No I said there are more people accidently shot and killed than there are criminals shot and killed in defense.

A person does not have to be shot and killed for a gun to be used in self defense.

A fact that you control freaks routinely ignore

 

[2aguy]

That is some good info...and out of an average of 1.6 million defensive uses of guns....it also shows how much restraint law abiding citizens have and how much criminals don't want to be shot.

Except the 1.6 million is pure fantasy. Just how many positive responses were received to arrive at that number?

On the 1.6 million number....that comes,from me averaging the numbers from the 19 different studies, including Kleck's and the NVCS study.....it came out to about 1.6 million times a gun is used to stop violent criminal attack and save lives....that is how I came up with the 1.6 million number....

 

[Vandalshandle]

As a matter of fact, I was threatened with a handgun...by a family member. he had every intention of killing me, but was too drunk to load the gun. I know damned well that he was serious, because he used it to kill himself less than a month later. I just don't choose to go through life in terror and fear. Frankly, I feel sorry for those of you who do. It is more understandable for a woman who has been raped, but for a guy to feel like he can not leave his gun in his car when he goes in to Starbucks...well, pity is the best world that I can use.

I pity people that think they know everyone else's mind. It really is a special kind of stupid.

Well, it is true, Ice, that I only ASSUMED that you would feel the need to carry a loaded weapon into a busy urban store was completely for defensive purposes. However, I don't know you, so, yeah, perhaps your motive is not defensive at all.

See vandal...you are thinking like a lib....he was pointing out that he doesn't carry in a state of fear and terror, probably doesn't even think about the he gun as he is walking around....you obviously put the worst motivation on him...typical lib....

Bill, there are 4 possible reasons for carrying a gun around an urban environment as a civilian:
1: For defensive purposes
2. For offensive purposes
3. To show everybody that you are a macho man
4. Because you can, and want to put that fact in everybody's face.

Now, Ice implies that when I assume that he is carrying to defend himself in Walmart, he tells me that I don't know what he is thinking. Ok, then he is thinking one of the other three reasons. None of which is very flattering to the person carrying the gun. The fact that he is not voluntarily revealing WHY he thinks someone should carry a loaded gun in a crowded store pretty much confirms that the reason is, in fact, one of the four I mentioned. Of course, I could be wrong. Maybe he just wants to get in a little target practice in the tire department, or maybe use the pistol butt as a hammer in case he should run across a dangerous nail sticking out of a board in the hardware department.

 

[skookerasbil]

I call BS on this whole story until I hear what caliber the weapon was. If it was a revolver, no fucking way a 2 year old has the strength to pull the trigger ( unless it was cocked......unlikely ). FF without this info...........anybody who knows triggers of weapons knows if you have a 4lb trigger pull or more, no 2 year old is discharging the weapon. NO.........FUCKING...........WAY. In double action mode.............impossible. Revolver guns tend not to have a safety so it was likely a revolver.

 

[2aguy]

Vandal...you are being dihiponest, or you need to re read what you posted....you said that people who carry are doing it in fear and terror, and brought up Starbucks....people who carry daily don't do so in fear and terror, they simply understand that as remote as the possibility is that they may be attacked by a criminal....that reality actually does exist...and on the off chance that it does, they will have a gun to deal with it.....there is no fear or terror involved...it is about the same emotional level as checking your tires,for proper inflation.....before you leave the driveway....

 

[2aguy]

I call BS on this whole story until I hear what caliber the weapon was. If it was a revolver, no fucking way a 2 year old has the strength to pull the trigger ( unless it was cocked......unlikely ). FF without this info...........anybody who knows triggers of weapons knows if you have a 4lb trigger pull or more, no 2 year old is discharging the weapon. NO.........FUCKING...........WAY. In double action mode.............impossible. Revolver guns tend not to have a safety so it was likely a revolver.

Unless it was a glock?

 

[Brain357]

That is some good info...and out of an average of 1.6 million defensive uses of guns....it also shows how much restraint law abiding citizens have and how much criminals don't want to be shot.

Except the 1.6 million is pure fantasy. Just how many positive responses were received to arrive at that number?

On the 1.6 million number....that comes,from me averaging the numbers from the 19 different studies, including Kleck's and the NVCS study.....it came out to about 1.6 million times a gun is used to stop violent criminal attack and save lives....that is how I came up with the 1.6 million number....

But you can't do that. What if the 500k number is correct? Then you are off by 1.1 million.... And of course the number is much closer to100k so you are off by 1.5 million.

 

[Brain357]

Well more people screw up with a gun than shoot and kill criminals. If you are ok with that fine, but it doesn't say much for guns being anti crime. You are also far more likely to be shot if you have a gun.
Carrying a gun increases risk of getting shot and killed - science-in-society - 06 October 2009 - New Scientist

Now if you are aware of those things and still choose to carry, then good luck to you. Lets just keep the debate honest and not make it sound like carrying a gun makes you safer. I wont claim that driving a car makes you safer, but it sure has a lot of benefits.

OK now please post the numbers that prove there are more accidental gun deaths than there are guns used in self defense.

Now don't forget to count all the times a gun is used and not fired

Why would I compare deaths to defenses? Murder is a very small percent of crime, so the vast majority of defenses aren't defending murder. Also a large number of defenses probably didn't require a gun.

Hey YOU said that there are more accidental gun deaths than instances of guns used in self defense.

So fucking prove it.

No I said there are more people accidently shot and killed than there are criminals shot and killed in defense.

A person does not have to be shot and killed for a gun to be used in self defense.

A fact that you control freaks routinely ignore

I have not said that. You better read for the 3rd time what I said. Maybe you will finally understand.

I've actually posted a study that says a criminal is shot and killed in about 34% of defenses. So I'm fully aware.

 

[Brain357]

I'll get the Kleck study...one of the 19 that has the numbers easily available.....I'll get it later.

but if I remember correctly, he called 4,999 people, and asked them specifically if they used a gun in the last year to stop a crime......he had 200 people, I think, respond yes to that question...and it had to be in the last year...and they called them back to confirm the information....and then using research methods they extrapolated that to upwards of 2.5 million gun uses a year.....

2 other studies put the number at 3 million and then the Obama, CDC study acknowledged between 500,000 and 3 million....but Kleck's study is not an outlier of the 19 studies....the NCVS is though...

I'll wait for the correct numbers, but arriving at 2.5 million from only 200 positive responses seems as ridiculous as can be. Especially since not a single positive was confirmed in any way.