if not evolution

[ding]

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." Benjamin Franklin

 

[G.T.]

Isnt it oddly disturbed, in a way, that a human can be so dumb as to continuously parade around the human view of virtue - to establish that its universal?

Id say it reached the level of "sick," but theres a tiny window left cracked for retardarion.

 

[Indeependent]

You know this how?

The “evolutionary baggage” that all living organisms carry with them is among the most powerful evidence for evolution’s truth. And none of it is explicable if evolution had not occurred, and an “intelligent designer” had been involved. For why would an intelligent designer include anything that was “unnecessary” at all? It is only special creation that claims perfection. So you are actually arguing against your own beliefs here.

Evolution might “improve life” though it often does not. But only creation by god would be able to “perfect life.” And since living things are not perfect, if they are not the product of evolution then either one or more of the gods chose to create imperfect things, or they cannot create perfect things.

So you are taking an allegorical account of creation and extrapolating a claim of perfection. I already explained this to you.

As to what is necessary and what is not is debatable. I don't believe any of it was unnecessary because everything is connected and serves a purpose.

Which verse leads you to state that the creation story is allegorical?

No single verse or even a single event but all events in genesis.

Your insistence that genesis is allegorical vs. literal is a discussion to be had between you and other Christians. Just bring a large cache of weapons and ammo for that discussion.

However, the events and timelines as described in the bibles are a mess whether you believe them to be literally true or not. Let's take a critical, objective, shall we?


Well, let's look at the source material, why don't we (KJV):


Genesis 2
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

[Commentary] God has created the plants (which would include trees) and then creates man. Then he plants the garden and places man there. We on the same page so far?




16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

[Commentary] Very clearly here we can see that evil already exists else it cannot be a tree of knowledge of good and evil. Man at this point in the narrative has nothing to do nor any knowledge of either good or evil. Hence evil must predate Man in order for there to be a choice.




Genesis 3
1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Now we have two questions:

1. Does this serpent lie, deceive, and tempt ("yes" to all three)-- and are any of these behaviors sinful? To answer this, apply them to the model of perfection, God. Can this God...

Lie? No, it would be sinful of God to lie and God by definition is sinless.

Deceive? No, it would be sinful of God to deceive and God by definition is sinless.

Tempt? Well, perhaps towards good, but the context here is towards disobedience and thus would be sinful, and of course it would be sinful of God to tempt and God by definition is sinless.

So we can agree that the behaviors of the serpent are pretty much sinful and none of them could be applied to the perfection of God within the narrative.

Onto our second question:

Exactly who (or what) is this serpent? It can only be one of three things:

A. An actual flesh and blood serpent
B. Satan
C. God

If it is A., and if it sins (and it does) then sin has been introduced into the world by a flesh and blood creation of god, and man has not brought it into the world.

If it is B. and if Satan sins, then once again evil has been brought into the world by an agent other than Man (although not of flesh and blood)

If it is C. (and actually, as the Author of Everything then Everything is ultimately of God) then we have a very deep problem, and a nature that totally self-destructs as God is both perfect and imperfect at the same time (this is the core "proof" of God not existing that leads to an atheistic conclusion-- for all those endless demands that atheists prove that a nothing doesn't not exist, it is only this-- that God is a senseless mass of contradictory nonsense that can establish any sort of "proof". A senseless mass of contradictory nonsense is indistinguishable from "nothingness"). For arguments sake, let's not head down C at all since in question 1 we have eliminated God being able to sin.

Now, left with choice A or B: I have heard the argument (and it's not a bad one actually): "Well, nowhere does it say God told the serpent he couldn't be evil and it was the disobedience that is the sin, not the act of evil."

To this I would point out that if sin (disobedience) is not evil, then it must be good, and if it is good, it cannot be an act of disobedience, and once again we're in a feedback loop.

But let's even concede this point and see where it leads:

What we are left with is this: Evil is of God -- no way around that -- hence, God is all good and all evil at the same time and is completely self-contradictory. Sin is the failure of the test -- but if sin is evil, and man was kept from knowing what good and evil are (only the tree could supply that knowledge and he was told not to indulge), then he is precluded from being able to pass the test. God must know this, and God, being omniscient, must know which way Man would choose. Hence, free will is an illusion.

Hence, things are the way they are because God wants them precisely this way, and the claim that God didn't set out to create Satan on purpose is disproved. And this includes a nasty and capricious nature which will kill people via floods and tornadoes and fires and earthquakes etc., none of which are essential to a world created by a God.

He could have just as easily made it otherwise, he just didn't.

The serpent didn't lie.

 

[ding]

Isnt it oddly disturbed, in a way, that a human can be so dumb as to continuously parade around the human view of virtue - to establish that its universal?

Id say it reached the level of "sick," but theres a tiny window left cracked for retardarion.

"No government can continue good but under the control of the people; and . . . . their minds are to be informed by education what is right and what wrong; to be encouraged in habits of virtue and to be deterred from those of vice . . . . These are the inculcations necessary to render the people a sure basis for the structure and order of government." Thomas Jefferson

 

[G.T.]

Isnt it oddly disturbed, in a way, that a human can be so dumb as to continuously parade around the human view of virtue - to establish that its universal?

Id say it reached the level of "sick," but theres a tiny window left cracked for retardarion.

"No government can continue good but under the control of the people; and . . . . their minds are to be informed by education what is right and what wrong; to be encouraged in habits of virtue and to be deterred from those of vice . . . . These are the inculcations necessary to render the people a sure basis for the structure and order of government." Thomas Jefferson

Good luck dealing with your tantrum, apologize for once again triggering your melt down.

 

[ding]

Isnt it oddly disturbed, in a way, that a human can be so dumb as to continuously parade around the human view of virtue - to establish that its universal?

Id say it reached the level of "sick," but theres a tiny window left cracked for retardarion.

"No government can continue good but under the control of the people; and . . . . their minds are to be informed by education what is right and what wrong; to be encouraged in habits of virtue and to be deterred from those of vice . . . . These are the inculcations necessary to render the people a sure basis for the structure and order of government." Thomas Jefferson

Good luck dealing with your tantrum, apologize for once again triggering your melt down.

"When virtue is banished, ambition invades the minds of those who are disposed to receive it, and avarice possesses the whole community." Montesquieu (written by Thomas Jefferson in his Common Place Book).

 

[ding]

Isnt it oddly disturbed, in a way, that a human can be so dumb as to continuously parade around the human view of virtue - to establish that its universal?

Id say it reached the level of "sick," but theres a tiny window left cracked for retardarion.

"No government can continue good but under the control of the people; and . . . . their minds are to be informed by education what is right and what wrong; to be encouraged in habits of virtue and to be deterred from those of vice . . . . These are the inculcations necessary to render the people a sure basis for the structure and order of government." Thomas Jefferson

Good luck dealing with your tantrum, apologize for once again triggering your melt down.

"The order of nature [is] that individual happiness shall be inseparable from the practice of virtue." Thomas Jefferson

 

[G.T.]

Isnt it oddly disturbed, in a way, that a human can be so dumb as to continuously parade around the human view of virtue - to establish that its universal?

Id say it reached the level of "sick," but theres a tiny window left cracked for retardarion.

"No government can continue good but under the control of the people; and . . . . their minds are to be informed by education what is right and what wrong; to be encouraged in habits of virtue and to be deterred from those of vice . . . . These are the inculcations necessary to render the people a sure basis for the structure and order of government." Thomas Jefferson

Good luck dealing with your tantrum, apologize for once again triggering your melt down.

"When virtue is banished, ambition invades the minds of those who are disposed to receive it, and avarice possesses the whole community." Montesquieu (written by Thomas Jefferson in his Common Place Book).

there, there

 

[Hollie]

The “evolutionary baggage” that all living organisms carry with them is among the most powerful evidence for evolution’s truth. And none of it is explicable if evolution had not occurred, and an “intelligent designer” had been involved. For why would an intelligent designer include anything that was “unnecessary” at all? It is only special creation that claims perfection. So you are actually arguing against your own beliefs here.

Evolution might “improve life” though it often does not. But only creation by god would be able to “perfect life.” And since living things are not perfect, if they are not the product of evolution then either one or more of the gods chose to create imperfect things, or they cannot create perfect things.

So you are taking an allegorical account of creation and extrapolating a claim of perfection. I already explained this to you.

As to what is necessary and what is not is debatable. I don't believe any of it was unnecessary because everything is connected and serves a purpose.

Which verse leads you to state that the creation story is allegorical?

No single verse or even a single event but all events in genesis.

Your insistence that genesis is allegorical vs. literal is a discussion to be had between you and other Christians. Just bring a large cache of weapons and ammo for that discussion.

However, the events and timelines as described in the bibles are a mess whether you believe them to be literally true or not. Let's take a critical, objective, shall we?


Well, let's look at the source material, why don't we (KJV):


Genesis 2
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

[Commentary] God has created the plants (which would include trees) and then creates man. Then he plants the garden and places man there. We on the same page so far?




16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

[Commentary] Very clearly here we can see that evil already exists else it cannot be a tree of knowledge of good and evil. Man at this point in the narrative has nothing to do nor any knowledge of either good or evil. Hence evil must predate Man in order for there to be a choice.




Genesis 3
1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Now we have two questions:

1. Does this serpent lie, deceive, and tempt ("yes" to all three)-- and are any of these behaviors sinful? To answer this, apply them to the model of perfection, God. Can this God...

Lie? No, it would be sinful of God to lie and God by definition is sinless.

Deceive? No, it would be sinful of God to deceive and God by definition is sinless.

Tempt? Well, perhaps towards good, but the context here is towards disobedience and thus would be sinful, and of course it would be sinful of God to tempt and God by definition is sinless.

So we can agree that the behaviors of the serpent are pretty much sinful and none of them could be applied to the perfection of God within the narrative.

Onto our second question:

Exactly who (or what) is this serpent? It can only be one of three things:

A. An actual flesh and blood serpent
B. Satan
C. God

If it is A., and if it sins (and it does) then sin has been introduced into the world by a flesh and blood creation of god, and man has not brought it into the world.

If it is B. and if Satan sins, then once again evil has been brought into the world by an agent other than Man (although not of flesh and blood)

If it is C. (and actually, as the Author of Everything then Everything is ultimately of God) then we have a very deep problem, and a nature that totally self-destructs as God is both perfect and imperfect at the same time (this is the core "proof" of God not existing that leads to an atheistic conclusion-- for all those endless demands that atheists prove that a nothing doesn't not exist, it is only this-- that God is a senseless mass of contradictory nonsense that can establish any sort of "proof". A senseless mass of contradictory nonsense is indistinguishable from "nothingness"). For arguments sake, let's not head down C at all since in question 1 we have eliminated God being able to sin.

Now, left with choice A or B: I have heard the argument (and it's not a bad one actually): "Well, nowhere does it say God told the serpent he couldn't be evil and it was the disobedience that is the sin, not the act of evil."

To this I would point out that if sin (disobedience) is not evil, then it must be good, and if it is good, it cannot be an act of disobedience, and once again we're in a feedback loop.

But let's even concede this point and see where it leads:

What we are left with is this: Evil is of God -- no way around that -- hence, God is all good and all evil at the same time and is completely self-contradictory. Sin is the failure of the test -- but if sin is evil, and man was kept from knowing what good and evil are (only the tree could supply that knowledge and he was told not to indulge), then he is precluded from being able to pass the test. God must know this, and God, being omniscient, must know which way Man would choose. Hence, free will is an illusion.

Hence, things are the way they are because God wants them precisely this way, and the claim that God didn't set out to create Satan on purpose is disproved. And this includes a nasty and capricious nature which will kill people via floods and tornadoes and fires and earthquakes etc., none of which are essential to a world created by a God.

He could have just as easily made it otherwise, he just didn't.

The serpent didn't lie.

Talking serpents aside, no, the serpent didn’t lie. "ye shall eat of all things but not of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge -- for on that day, ye shall die".

A&E didn't die, as the serpent pointed out, they lived; God lied, Satan told the truth-- how ironic.

All this fuss over fruit theft.

 

[Hollie]

Isnt it oddly disturbed, in a way, that a human can be so dumb as to continuously parade around the human view of virtue - to establish that its universal?

Id say it reached the level of "sick," but theres a tiny window left cracked for retardarion.

"No government can continue good but under the control of the people; and . . . . their minds are to be informed by education what is right and what wrong; to be encouraged in habits of virtue and to be deterred from those of vice . . . . These are the inculcations necessary to render the people a sure basis for the structure and order of government." Thomas Jefferson

Good luck dealing with your tantrum, apologize for once again triggering your melt down.

"When virtue is banished, ambition invades the minds of those who are disposed to receive it, and avarice possesses the whole community." Montesquieu (written by Thomas Jefferson in his Common Place Book).

there, there

He’s on a cut and paste tirade.

 

[ding]

Isnt it oddly disturbed, in a way, that a human can be so dumb as to continuously parade around the human view of virtue - to establish that its universal?

Id say it reached the level of "sick," but theres a tiny window left cracked for retardarion.

"No government can continue good but under the control of the people; and . . . . their minds are to be informed by education what is right and what wrong; to be encouraged in habits of virtue and to be deterred from those of vice . . . . These are the inculcations necessary to render the people a sure basis for the structure and order of government." Thomas Jefferson

Good luck dealing with your tantrum, apologize for once again triggering your melt down.

"When virtue is banished, ambition invades the minds of those who are disposed to receive it, and avarice possesses the whole community." Montesquieu (written by Thomas Jefferson in his Common Place Book).

there, there

"Without virtue, happiness cannot be." Thomas Jefferson

 

[ding]

Isnt it oddly disturbed, in a way, that a human can be so dumb as to continuously parade around the human view of virtue - to establish that its universal?

Id say it reached the level of "sick," but theres a tiny window left cracked for retardarion.

"No government can continue good but under the control of the people; and . . . . their minds are to be informed by education what is right and what wrong; to be encouraged in habits of virtue and to be deterred from those of vice . . . . These are the inculcations necessary to render the people a sure basis for the structure and order of government." Thomas Jefferson

Good luck dealing with your tantrum, apologize for once again triggering your melt down.

"When virtue is banished, ambition invades the minds of those who are disposed to receive it, and avarice possesses the whole community." Montesquieu (written by Thomas Jefferson in his Common Place Book).

there, there

He’s on a cut and paste tirade.

It's called accepting knowledge on authority of others. 99% of everything you know was acquired this way.

 

[ding]

Isnt it oddly disturbed, in a way, that a human can be so dumb as to continuously parade around the human view of virtue - to establish that its universal?

Id say it reached the level of "sick," but theres a tiny window left cracked for retardarion.

"No government can continue good but under the control of the people; and . . . . their minds are to be informed by education what is right and what wrong; to be encouraged in habits of virtue and to be deterred from those of vice . . . . These are the inculcations necessary to render the people a sure basis for the structure and order of government." Thomas Jefferson

Good luck dealing with your tantrum, apologize for once again triggering your melt down.

"When virtue is banished, ambition invades the minds of those who are disposed to receive it, and avarice possesses the whole community." Montesquieu (written by Thomas Jefferson in his Common Place Book).

there, there

"To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or happiness without any virtue in the people, is a chimerical idea." James Madison

 

[G.T.]

Isnt it oddly disturbed, in a way, that a human can be so dumb as to continuously parade around the human view of virtue - to establish that its universal?

Id say it reached the level of "sick," but theres a tiny window left cracked for retardarion.

"No government can continue good but under the control of the people; and . . . . their minds are to be informed by education what is right and what wrong; to be encouraged in habits of virtue and to be deterred from those of vice . . . . These are the inculcations necessary to render the people a sure basis for the structure and order of government." Thomas Jefferson

Good luck dealing with your tantrum, apologize for once again triggering your melt down.

"When virtue is banished, ambition invades the minds of those who are disposed to receive it, and avarice possesses the whole community." Montesquieu (written by Thomas Jefferson in his Common Place Book).

there, there

He’s on a cut and paste tirade.

He's like a toddler having a tantrum. He cant establish virtues as universal, so instead he will just reiterate quotes on how theyre human constructs...

so that I dont have to any more!

Thats how to be a boss, no pun intended

 

[ding]

"No government can continue good but under the control of the people; and . . . . their minds are to be informed by education what is right and what wrong; to be encouraged in habits of virtue and to be deterred from those of vice . . . . These are the inculcations necessary to render the people a sure basis for the structure and order of government." Thomas Jefferson

Good luck dealing with your tantrum, apologize for once again triggering your melt down.

"When virtue is banished, ambition invades the minds of those who are disposed to receive it, and avarice possesses the whole community." Montesquieu (written by Thomas Jefferson in his Common Place Book).

there, there

He’s on a cut and paste tirade.

He's like a toddler having a tantrum. He cant establish virtues as universal, so instead he will just reiterate quotes on how theyre human constructs...

so that I dont have to any more!

Thats how to be a boss, no pun intended

"The aim of every political Constitution, is or ought to be first to obtain for rulers men who possess most wisdom to discern, and most virtue to pursue, the common good of society; and in the next place, to take the most effectual precautions for keeping them virtuous whilst they continue to hold their public trust." James Madison

 

[Hollie]

"No government can continue good but under the control of the people; and . . . . their minds are to be informed by education what is right and what wrong; to be encouraged in habits of virtue and to be deterred from those of vice . . . . These are the inculcations necessary to render the people a sure basis for the structure and order of government." Thomas Jefferson

Good luck dealing with your tantrum, apologize for once again triggering your melt down.

"When virtue is banished, ambition invades the minds of those who are disposed to receive it, and avarice possesses the whole community." Montesquieu (written by Thomas Jefferson in his Common Place Book).

there, there

He’s on a cut and paste tirade.

It's called accepting knowledge on authority of others. 99% of everything you know was acquired this way.

I’m a bit more discriminating in my accepting of knowledge. Your agenda driven cut and paste tirade is lacking when you can’t even define the terms you use.

 

[ding]

Good luck dealing with your tantrum, apologize for once again triggering your melt down.

"When virtue is banished, ambition invades the minds of those who are disposed to receive it, and avarice possesses the whole community." Montesquieu (written by Thomas Jefferson in his Common Place Book).

there, there

He’s on a cut and paste tirade.

It's called accepting knowledge on authority of others. 99% of everything you know was acquired this way.

I’m a bit more discriminating in my accepting of knowledge. Your agenda driven cut and paste tirade is lacking when you can’t even define the terms you use.

". . . Virtue, morality, and religion. This is the armor, my friend, and this alone that renders us invincible. These are the tactics we should study. If we lose these, we are conquered, fallen indeed . . . so long as our manners and principles remain sound, there is no danger." Patrick Henry

 

[G.T.]

Good luck dealing with your tantrum, apologize for once again triggering your melt down.

"When virtue is banished, ambition invades the minds of those who are disposed to receive it, and avarice possesses the whole community." Montesquieu (written by Thomas Jefferson in his Common Place Book).

there, there

He’s on a cut and paste tirade.

It's called accepting knowledge on authority of others. 99% of everything you know was acquired this way.

I’m a bit more discriminating in my accepting of knowledge. Your agenda driven cut and paste tirade is lacking when you can’t even define the terms you use.

let him make my argument for me, shhhh

 

[ding]

"When virtue is banished, ambition invades the minds of those who are disposed to receive it, and avarice possesses the whole community." Montesquieu (written by Thomas Jefferson in his Common Place Book).

there, there

He’s on a cut and paste tirade.

It's called accepting knowledge on authority of others. 99% of everything you know was acquired this way.

I’m a bit more discriminating in my accepting of knowledge. Your agenda driven cut and paste tirade is lacking when you can’t even define the terms you use.

let him make my argument for me, shhhh

"Bad men cannot make good citizens. It is when a people forget God that tyrants forge their chains. A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience, is incompatible with freedom. No free government, or the blessings of liberty, can be preserved to any people but by a firm adherence to justice, moderation, temperance, frugality, and virtue; and by a frequent recurrence to fundamental principles." Patrick Henry

 

[Hollie]

"No government can continue good but under the control of the people; and . . . . their minds are to be informed by education what is right and what wrong; to be encouraged in habits of virtue and to be deterred from those of vice . . . . These are the inculcations necessary to render the people a sure basis for the structure and order of government." Thomas Jefferson

Good luck dealing with your tantrum, apologize for once again triggering your melt down.

"When virtue is banished, ambition invades the minds of those who are disposed to receive it, and avarice possesses the whole community." Montesquieu (written by Thomas Jefferson in his Common Place Book).

there, there

He’s on a cut and paste tirade.

He's like a toddler having a tantrum. He cant establish virtues as universal, so instead he will just reiterate quotes on how theyre human constructs...

so that I dont have to any more!

Thats how to be a boss, no pun intended

He’s even abandoned the virtue=success slogan. I think he’s hoping to bury that page of the thread by drenching page after page with “quotes”, hoping others will forget that claim.