if not evolution

[ding]

Good luck dealing with your tantrum, apologize for once again triggering your melt down.

"When virtue is banished, ambition invades the minds of those who are disposed to receive it, and avarice possesses the whole community." Montesquieu (written by Thomas Jefferson in his Common Place Book).

there, there

He’s on a cut and paste tirade.

He's like a toddler having a tantrum. He cant establish virtues as universal, so instead he will just reiterate quotes on how theyre human constructs...

so that I dont have to any more!

Thats how to be a boss, no pun intended

He’s even abandoned the virtue=success slogan. I think he’s hoping to bury that page of the thread by drenching page after page with “quotes”, hoping others will forget that claim.

"The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People, in a great Measure, than they have it now. They may change their Rulers, and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty." John Adams

 

[Indeependent]

So you are taking an allegorical account of creation and extrapolating a claim of perfection. I already explained this to you.

As to what is necessary and what is not is debatable. I don't believe any of it was unnecessary because everything is connected and serves a purpose.

Which verse leads you to state that the creation story is allegorical?

No single verse or even a single event but all events in genesis.

Your insistence that genesis is allegorical vs. literal is a discussion to be had between you and other Christians. Just bring a large cache of weapons and ammo for that discussion.

However, the events and timelines as described in the bibles are a mess whether you believe them to be literally true or not. Let's take a critical, objective, shall we?


Well, let's look at the source material, why don't we (KJV):


Genesis 2
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

[Commentary] God has created the plants (which would include trees) and then creates man. Then he plants the garden and places man there. We on the same page so far?




16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

[Commentary] Very clearly here we can see that evil already exists else it cannot be a tree of knowledge of good and evil. Man at this point in the narrative has nothing to do nor any knowledge of either good or evil. Hence evil must predate Man in order for there to be a choice.




Genesis 3
1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Now we have two questions:

1. Does this serpent lie, deceive, and tempt ("yes" to all three)-- and are any of these behaviors sinful? To answer this, apply them to the model of perfection, God. Can this God...

Lie? No, it would be sinful of God to lie and God by definition is sinless.

Deceive? No, it would be sinful of God to deceive and God by definition is sinless.

Tempt? Well, perhaps towards good, but the context here is towards disobedience and thus would be sinful, and of course it would be sinful of God to tempt and God by definition is sinless.

So we can agree that the behaviors of the serpent are pretty much sinful and none of them could be applied to the perfection of God within the narrative.

Onto our second question:

Exactly who (or what) is this serpent? It can only be one of three things:

A. An actual flesh and blood serpent
B. Satan
C. God

If it is A., and if it sins (and it does) then sin has been introduced into the world by a flesh and blood creation of god, and man has not brought it into the world.

If it is B. and if Satan sins, then once again evil has been brought into the world by an agent other than Man (although not of flesh and blood)

If it is C. (and actually, as the Author of Everything then Everything is ultimately of God) then we have a very deep problem, and a nature that totally self-destructs as God is both perfect and imperfect at the same time (this is the core "proof" of God not existing that leads to an atheistic conclusion-- for all those endless demands that atheists prove that a nothing doesn't not exist, it is only this-- that God is a senseless mass of contradictory nonsense that can establish any sort of "proof". A senseless mass of contradictory nonsense is indistinguishable from "nothingness"). For arguments sake, let's not head down C at all since in question 1 we have eliminated God being able to sin.

Now, left with choice A or B: I have heard the argument (and it's not a bad one actually): "Well, nowhere does it say God told the serpent he couldn't be evil and it was the disobedience that is the sin, not the act of evil."

To this I would point out that if sin (disobedience) is not evil, then it must be good, and if it is good, it cannot be an act of disobedience, and once again we're in a feedback loop.

But let's even concede this point and see where it leads:

What we are left with is this: Evil is of God -- no way around that -- hence, God is all good and all evil at the same time and is completely self-contradictory. Sin is the failure of the test -- but if sin is evil, and man was kept from knowing what good and evil are (only the tree could supply that knowledge and he was told not to indulge), then he is precluded from being able to pass the test. God must know this, and God, being omniscient, must know which way Man would choose. Hence, free will is an illusion.

Hence, things are the way they are because God wants them precisely this way, and the claim that God didn't set out to create Satan on purpose is disproved. And this includes a nasty and capricious nature which will kill people via floods and tornadoes and fires and earthquakes etc., none of which are essential to a world created by a God.

He could have just as easily made it otherwise, he just didn't.

The serpent didn't lie.

Talking serpents aside, no, the serpent didn’t lie. "ye shall eat of all things but not of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge -- for on that day, ye shall die".

A&E didn't die, as the serpent pointed out, they lived; God lied, Satan told the truth-- how ironic.

All this fuss over fruit theft.

For on that day you shall surely die.
All that means is that before the trespass they were immortal.
After the trespass they would surely face die eventually.
Every takes that verse the wrong way.

You may scoff, but if someone gave you something of enormous value and told you there's one thing you can't do with it, I'm sure you'd comply.

 

[Hollie]

"When virtue is banished, ambition invades the minds of those who are disposed to receive it, and avarice possesses the whole community." Montesquieu (written by Thomas Jefferson in his Common Place Book).

there, there

He’s on a cut and paste tirade.

He's like a toddler having a tantrum. He cant establish virtues as universal, so instead he will just reiterate quotes on how theyre human constructs...

so that I dont have to any more!

Thats how to be a boss, no pun intended

He’s even abandoned the virtue=success slogan. I think he’s hoping to bury that page of the thread by drenching page after page with “quotes”, hoping others will forget that claim.

"The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People, in a great Measure, than they have it now. They may change their Rulers, and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty." John Adams

Nothing in connection with your virtue=success, meme.

I will require that you cont8nue with your cut and paste tirade.

It is comical.

Thanks.

 

[ding]

there, there

He’s on a cut and paste tirade.

He's like a toddler having a tantrum. He cant establish virtues as universal, so instead he will just reiterate quotes on how theyre human constructs...

so that I dont have to any more!

Thats how to be a boss, no pun intended

He’s even abandoned the virtue=success slogan. I think he’s hoping to bury that page of the thread by drenching page after page with “quotes”, hoping others will forget that claim.

"The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People, in a great Measure, than they have it now. They may change their Rulers, and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty." John Adams

Nothing in connection with your virtue=success, meme.

I will require that you cont8nue with your cut and paste tirade.

It is comical.

Thanks.

Are you kidding, what part of virtue is necessary for the success of liberty and freedom did you not get?

 

[G.T.]

He’s on a cut and paste tirade.

He's like a toddler having a tantrum. He cant establish virtues as universal, so instead he will just reiterate quotes on how theyre human constructs...

so that I dont have to any more!

Thats how to be a boss, no pun intended

He’s even abandoned the virtue=success slogan. I think he’s hoping to bury that page of the thread by drenching page after page with “quotes”, hoping others will forget that claim.

"The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People, in a great Measure, than they have it now. They may change their Rulers, and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty." John Adams

Nothing in connection with your virtue=success, meme.

I will require that you cont8nue with your cut and paste tirade.

It is comical.

Thanks.

Are you kidding, what part of virtue is necessary for the success of liberty and freedom did you not get?

dingfail#546

 

[ding]

And for the record, the serpent did lie when he asked the implied question, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

 

[ding]

He's like a toddler having a tantrum. He cant establish virtues as universal, so instead he will just reiterate quotes on how theyre human constructs...

so that I dont have to any more!

Thats how to be a boss, no pun intended

He’s even abandoned the virtue=success slogan. I think he’s hoping to bury that page of the thread by drenching page after page with “quotes”, hoping others will forget that claim.

"The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People, in a great Measure, than they have it now. They may change their Rulers, and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty." John Adams

Nothing in connection with your virtue=success, meme.

I will require that you cont8nue with your cut and paste tirade.

It is comical.

Thanks.

Are you kidding, what part of virtue is necessary for the success of liberty and freedom did you not get?

dingfail#546

"Public virtue cannot exist in a nation without private, and public virtue is the only foundation of republics." John Adams

 

[Hollie]

Which verse leads you to state that the creation story is allegorical?

No single verse or even a single event but all events in genesis.

Your insistence that genesis is allegorical vs. literal is a discussion to be had between you and other Christians. Just bring a large cache of weapons and ammo for that discussion.

However, the events and timelines as described in the bibles are a mess whether you believe them to be literally true or not. Let's take a critical, objective, shall we?


Well, let's look at the source material, why don't we (KJV):


Genesis 2
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

[Commentary] God has created the plants (which would include trees) and then creates man. Then he plants the garden and places man there. We on the same page so far?




16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

[Commentary] Very clearly here we can see that evil already exists else it cannot be a tree of knowledge of good and evil. Man at this point in the narrative has nothing to do nor any knowledge of either good or evil. Hence evil must predate Man in order for there to be a choice.




Genesis 3
1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Now we have two questions:

1. Does this serpent lie, deceive, and tempt ("yes" to all three)-- and are any of these behaviors sinful? To answer this, apply them to the model of perfection, God. Can this God...

Lie? No, it would be sinful of God to lie and God by definition is sinless.

Deceive? No, it would be sinful of God to deceive and God by definition is sinless.

Tempt? Well, perhaps towards good, but the context here is towards disobedience and thus would be sinful, and of course it would be sinful of God to tempt and God by definition is sinless.

So we can agree that the behaviors of the serpent are pretty much sinful and none of them could be applied to the perfection of God within the narrative.

Onto our second question:

Exactly who (or what) is this serpent? It can only be one of three things:

A. An actual flesh and blood serpent
B. Satan
C. God

If it is A., and if it sins (and it does) then sin has been introduced into the world by a flesh and blood creation of god, and man has not brought it into the world.

If it is B. and if Satan sins, then once again evil has been brought into the world by an agent other than Man (although not of flesh and blood)

If it is C. (and actually, as the Author of Everything then Everything is ultimately of God) then we have a very deep problem, and a nature that totally self-destructs as God is both perfect and imperfect at the same time (this is the core "proof" of God not existing that leads to an atheistic conclusion-- for all those endless demands that atheists prove that a nothing doesn't not exist, it is only this-- that God is a senseless mass of contradictory nonsense that can establish any sort of "proof". A senseless mass of contradictory nonsense is indistinguishable from "nothingness"). For arguments sake, let's not head down C at all since in question 1 we have eliminated God being able to sin.

Now, left with choice A or B: I have heard the argument (and it's not a bad one actually): "Well, nowhere does it say God told the serpent he couldn't be evil and it was the disobedience that is the sin, not the act of evil."

To this I would point out that if sin (disobedience) is not evil, then it must be good, and if it is good, it cannot be an act of disobedience, and once again we're in a feedback loop.

But let's even concede this point and see where it leads:

What we are left with is this: Evil is of God -- no way around that -- hence, God is all good and all evil at the same time and is completely self-contradictory. Sin is the failure of the test -- but if sin is evil, and man was kept from knowing what good and evil are (only the tree could supply that knowledge and he was told not to indulge), then he is precluded from being able to pass the test. God must know this, and God, being omniscient, must know which way Man would choose. Hence, free will is an illusion.

Hence, things are the way they are because God wants them precisely this way, and the claim that God didn't set out to create Satan on purpose is disproved. And this includes a nasty and capricious nature which will kill people via floods and tornadoes and fires and earthquakes etc., none of which are essential to a world created by a God.

He could have just as easily made it otherwise, he just didn't.

The serpent didn't lie.

Talking serpents aside, no, the serpent didn’t lie. "ye shall eat of all things but not of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge -- for on that day, ye shall die".

A&E didn't die, as the serpent pointed out, they lived; God lied, Satan told the truth-- how ironic.

All this fuss over fruit theft.

For on that day you shall surely die.
All that means is that before the trespass they were immortal.
After the trespass they would surely face die eventually.
Every takes that verse the wrong way.

You may scoff, but if someone gave you something of enormous value and told you there's one thing you can't do with it, I'm sure you'd comply.

I don’t necessarily agree with that interpretation. It simply means that once again, we’re left to question why a god of love and mercy would condemn his children, and their children, and their children, etc. for an act by A&E when they had no knowledge of good or evil.

 

[Hollie]

He’s even abandoned the virtue=success slogan. I think he’s hoping to bury that page of the thread by drenching page after page with “quotes”, hoping others will forget that claim.

"The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People, in a great Measure, than they have it now. They may change their Rulers, and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty." John Adams

Nothing in connection with your virtue=success, meme.

I will require that you cont8nue with your cut and paste tirade.

It is comical.

Thanks.

Are you kidding, what part of virtue is necessary for the success of liberty and freedom did you not get?

dingfail#546

"Public virtue cannot exist in a nation without private, and public virtue is the only foundation of republics." John Adams

I have to chuckle at this. Realizing your slogans were indefensible, you launched into a cut and paste tirade.

You’re not done yet, your homework assignment is cut and paste another dozen pages of “quotes”.

 

[ding]

"The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People, in a great Measure, than they have it now. They may change their Rulers, and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty." John Adams

Nothing in connection with your virtue=success, meme.

I will require that you cont8nue with your cut and paste tirade.

It is comical.

Thanks.

Are you kidding, what part of virtue is necessary for the success of liberty and freedom did you not get?

dingfail#546

"Public virtue cannot exist in a nation without private, and public virtue is the only foundation of republics." John Adams

I have to chuckle at this. Realizing your slogans were indefensible, you launched into a cut and paste tirade.

You’re not done yet, your homework assignment is cut and paste another dozen pages of “quotes”.

"It is certainly true that a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people." Richard Henry Lee

 

[G.T.]

"The only foundation of a free Constitution, is pure Virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People, in a great Measure, than they have it now. They may change their Rulers, and the forms of Government, but they will not obtain a lasting Liberty." John Adams

Nothing in connection with your virtue=success, meme.

I will require that you cont8nue with your cut and paste tirade.

It is comical.

Thanks.

Are you kidding, what part of virtue is necessary for the success of liberty and freedom did you not get?

dingfail#546

"Public virtue cannot exist in a nation without private, and public virtue is the only foundation of republics." John Adams

I have to chuckle at this. Realizing your slogans were indefensible, you launched into a cut and paste tirade.

You’re not done yet, your homework assignment is cut and paste another dozen pages of “quotes”.

The discussion was over his head, like I said at the beginning.

Like 5-6 folks had the same experience with him in the flame zone, when he couldnt seem to comprehend subjective vs objective. The melt down was epic.

#dingerred

 

[ding]

Nothing in connection with your virtue=success, meme.

I will require that you cont8nue with your cut and paste tirade.

It is comical.

Thanks.

Are you kidding, what part of virtue is necessary for the success of liberty and freedom did you not get?

dingfail#546

"Public virtue cannot exist in a nation without private, and public virtue is the only foundation of republics." John Adams

I have to chuckle at this. Realizing your slogans were indefensible, you launched into a cut and paste tirade.

You’re not done yet, your homework assignment is cut and paste another dozen pages of “quotes”.

The discussion was over his head, like I said at the beginning.

Like 5-6 folks had the same experience with him in the flame zone, when he couldnt seem to comprehend subjective vs objective. The melt down was epic.

#dingerred

In chess it is called positioning the pieces. Wouldn't you say that the Founding Fathers believed that virtue is important for the success of freedom and liberty? In fact, isn't that exactly what Richard Henry Lee said when he said,

"It is certainly true that a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people." Richard Henry Lee

 

[ding]

So can anyone say that the founding fathers believed that virtue was a good thing. Without exception. Universally so to speak.

 

[G.T.]

 

[ding]

And if you looked at Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Athenian philosophy, Christianity, Judaism and Islam, they universally espouse the value of virtue. Without exception.

And what we are discussing is virtue versus no virtue. Not different flavors or perceptions of virtue, but virtue against the lack of virtue. The antithesis. The diametric opposition to this behavior.

honest vs dishonest
caring vs cruel
loving vs hateful
selfless vs selfish
humble vs arrogant
thankful vs thankless

Given these two extremes the outcomes of these behaviors should be pretty self evident. Even to you two.

 

[G.T.]

humans, people, humans...



amazing!!

 

[Astrostar]

If you believe in evolution, do you believe a single celled creature just appeared to get the ball rolling?

Not at all. Evolution concerns the origin of the species, not the origin of life. I'm guessing you're unfamiliar with the theory of evolution...

Good points. And, a picture is worth a thousand words. Darwin would be so proud.

 

[Hollie]

And if you looked at Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Athenian philosophy, Christianity, Judaism and Islam, they universally espouse the value of virtue. Without exception.

And what we are discussing is virtue versus no virtue. Not different flavors or perceptions of virtue, but virtue against the lack of virtue. The antithesis. The diametric opposition to this behavior.

honest vs dishonest
caring vs cruel
loving vs hateful
selfish vs selfless
humble vs arrogant
thankful vs thankless

Given these two extremes the outcomes of these behaviors should be pretty self evident. Even to you two.

I still haven’t found you making any connection to virtue=success.

I’ll require more cutting and pasting. On with it.

 

[ding]

humans, people, humans...



amazing!!

Why would you expect anything different anywhere else? I wouldn't. Maybe it is just because you have never really given it any thought. Do you think the laws of nature are different over there?

 

[jillian]

If you believe in evolution, do you believe a single celled creature just appeared to get the ball rolling?

there is the possibility god created man through evolution--yes?

not impossible