If Universal Healthcare is a Bad Idea...

[Redfish]

Those who cannot pay for it, or receive it as a benefit for their employment.

So what happens when those without it go to an emergency room that by law has to treat them? Or should they die instead of being treated?

no one in the USA has ever been denied medical care at an ER. That is the case now and was the case before ACA.

That's not the point. The post I responded to opined that no one should have treatment not paid by themselves of an employer sponsored plan? Care to respond to that?

I disagree with that. Everyone should receive medical treatment. Everyone in the USA always has. That's the point. ACA was not a fix for a problem, it was an attempt for a government takeover of 1/6 of our economy. It was an attempt to make all medical care like the VA.

Why are families going bankrupt over healthcare bills?

they aren't. People may be going bankrupt and some medical bills may included in the bankruptcy filing, but no one is going bankrupt solely because of medical bills. That is a lie that has been pushed by the left for some time and its simply not true.

 

[Redfish]

Those who cannot pay for it, or receive it as a benefit for their employment.

So what happens when those without it go to an emergency room that by law has to treat them? Or should they die instead of being treated?

no one in the USA has ever been denied medical care at an ER. That is the case now and was the case before ACA.

That's not the point. The post I responded to opined that no one should have treatment not paid by themselves of an employer sponsored plan? Care to respond to that?

I disagree with that. Everyone should receive medical treatment. Everyone in the USA always has. That's the point. ACA was not a fix for a problem, it was an attempt for a government takeover of 1/6 of our economy. It was an attempt to make all medical care like the VA.

The gummit has already taken over HC in the economy. Our employer sponsored plans are paid through tax expenditures, namely tax breaks. That's been so since the 1950s. And the ACA wasn't explicity an attempt to make everyone be in the VA or medicare. If 60 dems in the senate wanted medicare for all we'd have hat it. Rather the ACA was an attempt to provide that treatment which was provided via ERs and having those with insurance pay for those without, but with cost control.

It's basic premise was: all insurance companies would get a specified profit on each policy offered. Consumers who did not already have coverage would be required to buy the policies, and those with lesser incomes would get tax subsidies. The consumers would buy the policies that covered the most services. Because insurance companies want to make money, they would price bargain with HC providers to get the cheapest care, so their policies could offer the most services.

The practical problem turned out to be that in most states, one insurance company pretty much has a monopoly in terms of having bargained with the providers. So, there's no real consumer choice. And NO INSENTIVE to get the lowest cost of services.

it was a flawed bill based on a flawed premise. There were problems, yes. but not to the extent that a complete overhaul and federalization was required.

NO ONE in the USA was denied medical care before ACA. NO ONE, even those here illegally.

 

[Redfish]

You are just too stupid. The second amendment affords the right to bear them, not the right to own one. You aren't really smart enough to be arguing.

Well, that's just retarded logic.

Really? You see, I have the right to own a gun, I do NOT have the right to have government supply it for Me.
I have the right to purchase health care, I do not have the right to have government supply it for Me.

The government cannot force Me to buy a gun even though I have a right to buy it.
The government cannot force Me to buy health care even though I have a right to buy it.

Understand?

Yes, really.

I have the right to 'bear arms' ,yet I still need to buy one first.

I have the right to healthcare, yet I still need to buy into a private plan or pay taxes toward it.

Not a single person except you rw dimwits has said anything about ' free' healthcare.
Single payer is paid for with a dedicated tax that everyone must pay. Not unlike Medicare.

You do not have a constitutional right to free medical care, or medical care funded by taxes. You have a right to own a gun because of the second amendment.

If you think medical care is a constitutional right, quote the language from the constitution that makes it so.

Privileges and immunities that promote the general welfare are powers delegated to our legislators.

I asked for a quote, you gave me an opinion.

 

[Redfish]

You are just too stupid. The second amendment affords the right to bear them, not the right to own one. You aren't really smart enough to be arguing.

Well, that's just retarded logic.

Really? You see, I have the right to own a gun, I do NOT have the right to have government supply it for Me.
I have the right to purchase health care, I do not have the right to have government supply it for Me.

The government cannot force Me to buy a gun even though I have a right to buy it.
The government cannot force Me to buy health care even though I have a right to buy it.

Understand?

Yes, really.

I have the right to 'bear arms' ,yet I still need to buy one first.

I have the right to healthcare, yet I still need to buy into a private plan or pay taxes toward it.

Not a single person except you rw dimwits has said anything about ' free' healthcare.
Single payer is paid for with a dedicated tax that everyone must pay. Not unlike Medicare.

You do not have a constitutional right to free medical care, or medical care funded by taxes. You have a right to own a gun because of the second amendment.

If you think medical care is a constitutional right, quote the language from the constitution that makes it so.

Actually, the 2nd Amendment guarantees us the right to BEAR arms, not the right to own them. In other words, you can carry a gun, have one in your home, on your property, but you can't demand someone give you a gun for free. It's not a right to a gun, its the right to bear one.

perfect analogy, thanks

 

[dblack]

Imagine if you lived in the UK. You'd probably be paying around 8% of your wages, and you'd get healthcare whether you were working or not. And you don't want this? You could go get private healthcare and still be under 25% of your wages and have higher quality healthcare.

Imagine Democrats had passed single payer instead of ACA. Imagine Trump and his basket of deplorables in charge of your health care. Go team!

Either way, I could be paying a lot of money for a healthcare system, or I could be paying a lot of money for nothing, which is better? The NHS is still better than nothing.

You assume 'nothing' is the only alternative to government control. You create your own false dilemma and then crow about it.

You haven't got back to me on my other posts which clearly show US people pay MORE in taxes to the US federal govt for healthcare they don't receive than the British people pay for healthcare which they do.

Because it's irrelevant data to me. I don't usually get involved in the debates over efficiency when it comes to public policy for that reason. Many things could be made more efficient by strict authoritarian control over our personal decisions - but that's not the kind of world I want to live in. You could prove to me, beyond any doubt, that our society would benefit from reinstituting slavery, and I would still oppose it. You could show me how making government the sole provider of food and housing would radically improve my personal and financial health, but I would still think it's a bad idea. Crime could be radically reduced if people weren't allowed to leave their home without permission from government. Same thing.

It seems like socialists hold a persistent conception of government as a universally benign force that can be trusted with everything we hold dear. And even in the face of outrageous evidence to the contrary, they will continue to propose that we give up more and more of our personal freedoms in the name of that delusion. I ain't buyin.

 

[dblack]

And as I've stated, universal healthcare doesn't take away the choice, it ADDS choice.

Freedom is Slavery?

 

[Hutch Starskey]

So, guns are free then?

You are just too stupid. The second amendment affords the right to bear them, not the right to own one. You aren't really smart enough to be arguing.

Well, that's just retarded logic.

Really? You see, I have the right to own a gun, I do NOT have the right to have government supply it for Me.
I have the right to purchase health care, I do not have the right to have government supply it for Me.

The government cannot force Me to buy a gun even though I have a right to buy it.
The government cannot force Me to buy health care even though I have a right to buy it.

Understand?

Yes, really.

I have the right to 'bear arms' ,yet I still need to buy one first.

I have the right to healthcare, yet I still need to buy into a private plan or pay taxes toward it.

Not a single person except you rw dimwits has said anything about ' free' healthcare.
Single payer is paid for with a dedicated tax that everyone must pay. Not unlike Medicare.

You do not have a constitutional right to free medical care, or medical care funded by taxes. You have a right to own a gun because of the second amendment.

If you think medical care is a constitutional right, quote the language from the constitution that makes it so.

You do not have a constitutional right to free medical care,

No one has said healthcare should be free, dumbass.

 

[Hutch Starskey]

Who should go without?

Those who cannot pay for it, or receive it as a benefit for their employment.

So what happens when those without it go to an emergency room that by law has to treat them? Or should they die instead of being treated?

no one in the USA has ever been denied medical care at an ER. That is the case now and was the case before ACA.

That's what makes it a right, dope.

 

[dblack]

You are just too stupid. The second amendment affords the right to bear them, not the right to own one. You aren't really smart enough to be arguing.

Well, that's just retarded logic.

Really? You see, I have the right to own a gun, I do NOT have the right to have government supply it for Me.
I have the right to purchase health care, I do not have the right to have government supply it for Me.

The government cannot force Me to buy a gun even though I have a right to buy it.
The government cannot force Me to buy health care even though I have a right to buy it.

Understand?

Yes, really.

I have the right to 'bear arms' ,yet I still need to buy one first.

I have the right to healthcare, yet I still need to buy into a private plan or pay taxes toward it.

Not a single person except you rw dimwits has said anything about ' free' healthcare.
Single payer is paid for with a dedicated tax that everyone must pay. Not unlike Medicare.

You do not have a constitutional right to free medical care, or medical care funded by taxes. You have a right to own a gun because of the second amendment.

If you think medical care is a constitutional right, quote the language from the constitution that makes it so.

You do not have a constitutional right to free medical care,

No one has said healthcare should be free, dumbass.

They say health care is a 'right'. What else does that mean?

 

[Hutch Starskey]

Who should go without?

Those who cannot pay for it, or receive it as a benefit for their employment.

So what happens when those without it go to an emergency room that by law has to treat them? Or should they die instead of being treated?

no one in the USA has ever been denied medical care at an ER. That is the case now and was the case before ACA.

Emergency care is not where healthcare ends.

Or begins.

 

[danielpalos]

Well, that's just retarded logic.

Really? You see, I have the right to own a gun, I do NOT have the right to have government supply it for Me.
I have the right to purchase health care, I do not have the right to have government supply it for Me.

The government cannot force Me to buy a gun even though I have a right to buy it.
The government cannot force Me to buy health care even though I have a right to buy it.

Understand?

Yes, really.

I have the right to 'bear arms' ,yet I still need to buy one first.

I have the right to healthcare, yet I still need to buy into a private plan or pay taxes toward it.

Not a single person except you rw dimwits has said anything about ' free' healthcare.
Single payer is paid for with a dedicated tax that everyone must pay. Not unlike Medicare.

You do not have a constitutional right to free medical care, or medical care funded by taxes. You have a right to own a gun because of the second amendment.

If you think medical care is a constitutional right, quote the language from the constitution that makes it so.

Privileges and immunities that promote the general welfare are powers delegated to our legislators.

Those aren't the words, that is your opinion.

Those are the powers established by our federal Constitution.

 

[PredFan]

Really? You see, I have the right to own a gun, I do NOT have the right to have government supply it for Me.
I have the right to purchase health care, I do not have the right to have government supply it for Me.

The government cannot force Me to buy a gun even though I have a right to buy it.
The government cannot force Me to buy health care even though I have a right to buy it.

Understand?

Yes, really.

I have the right to 'bear arms' ,yet I still need to buy one first.

I have the right to healthcare, yet I still need to buy into a private plan or pay taxes toward it.

Not a single person except you rw dimwits has said anything about ' free' healthcare.
Single payer is paid for with a dedicated tax that everyone must pay. Not unlike Medicare.

You do not have a constitutional right to free medical care, or medical care funded by taxes. You have a right to own a gun because of the second amendment.

If you think medical care is a constitutional right, quote the language from the constitution that makes it so.

Privileges and immunities that promote the general welfare are powers delegated to our legislators.

Those aren't the words, that is your opinion.

Those are the powers established by our federal Constitution.

No, it isn't. Prove me wrong, give us the words.

 

[Hutch Starskey]

Well, that's just retarded logic.

Really? You see, I have the right to own a gun, I do NOT have the right to have government supply it for Me.
I have the right to purchase health care, I do not have the right to have government supply it for Me.

The government cannot force Me to buy a gun even though I have a right to buy it.
The government cannot force Me to buy health care even though I have a right to buy it.

Understand?

Yes, really.

I have the right to 'bear arms' ,yet I still need to buy one first.

I have the right to healthcare, yet I still need to buy into a private plan or pay taxes toward it.

Not a single person except you rw dimwits has said anything about ' free' healthcare.
Single payer is paid for with a dedicated tax that everyone must pay. Not unlike Medicare.

You do not have a constitutional right to free medical care, or medical care funded by taxes. You have a right to own a gun because of the second amendment.

If you think medical care is a constitutional right, quote the language from the constitution that makes it so.

You do not have a constitutional right to free medical care,

No one has said healthcare should be free, dumbass.

They say health care is a 'right'. What else does that mean?

Are guns free?

 

[danielpalos]

Well, that's just retarded logic.

Really? You see, I have the right to own a gun, I do NOT have the right to have government supply it for Me.
I have the right to purchase health care, I do not have the right to have government supply it for Me.

The government cannot force Me to buy a gun even though I have a right to buy it.
The government cannot force Me to buy health care even though I have a right to buy it.

Understand?

Yes, really.

I have the right to 'bear arms' ,yet I still need to buy one first.

I have the right to healthcare, yet I still need to buy into a private plan or pay taxes toward it.

Not a single person except you rw dimwits has said anything about ' free' healthcare.
Single payer is paid for with a dedicated tax that everyone must pay. Not unlike Medicare.

You do not have a constitutional right to free medical care, or medical care funded by taxes. You have a right to own a gun because of the second amendment.

If you think medical care is a constitutional right, quote the language from the constitution that makes it so.

Privileges and immunities that promote the general welfare are powers delegated to our legislators.

I asked for a quote, you gave me an opinion.

You Only need Ten Commandments if everything is that simple.

Those are the powers delegated to Congress via our federal Constitution.

 

[danielpalos]

Imagine if you lived in the UK. You'd probably be paying around 8% of your wages, and you'd get healthcare whether you were working or not. And you don't want this? You could go get private healthcare and still be under 25% of your wages and have higher quality healthcare.

Imagine Democrats had passed single payer instead of ACA. Imagine Trump and his basket of deplorables in charge of your health care. Go team!

Either way, I could be paying a lot of money for a healthcare system, or I could be paying a lot of money for nothing, which is better? The NHS is still better than nothing.

You assume 'nothing' is the only alternative to government control. You create your own false dilemma and then crow about it.

You haven't got back to me on my other posts which clearly show US people pay MORE in taxes to the US federal govt for healthcare they don't receive than the British people pay for healthcare which they do.

Because it's irrelevant data to me. I don't usually get involved in the debates over efficiency when it comes to public policy for that reason. Many things could be made more efficient by strict authoritarian control over our personal decisions - but that's not the kind of world I want to live in. You could prove to me, beyond any doubt, that our society would benefit from reinstituting slavery, and I would still oppose it. You could show me how making government the sole provider of food and housing would radically improve my personal and financial health, but I would still think it's a bad idea. Crime could be radically reduced if people weren't allowed to leave their home without permission from government. Same thing.

It seems like socialists hold a persistent conception of government as a universally benign force that can be trusted with everything we hold dear. And even in the face of outrageous evidence to the contrary, they will continue to propose that we give up more and more of our personal freedoms in the name of that delusion. I ain't buyin.

Private sector control guarantees inequality on a for-profit basis.

 

[PredFan]

Really? You see, I have the right to own a gun, I do NOT have the right to have government supply it for Me.
I have the right to purchase health care, I do not have the right to have government supply it for Me.

The government cannot force Me to buy a gun even though I have a right to buy it.
The government cannot force Me to buy health care even though I have a right to buy it.

Understand?

Yes, really.

I have the right to 'bear arms' ,yet I still need to buy one first.

I have the right to healthcare, yet I still need to buy into a private plan or pay taxes toward it.

Not a single person except you rw dimwits has said anything about ' free' healthcare.
Single payer is paid for with a dedicated tax that everyone must pay. Not unlike Medicare.

You do not have a constitutional right to free medical care, or medical care funded by taxes. You have a right to own a gun because of the second amendment.

If you think medical care is a constitutional right, quote the language from the constitution that makes it so.

Privileges and immunities that promote the general welfare are powers delegated to our legislators.

I asked for a quote, you gave me an opinion.

You Only need Ten Commandments if everything is that simple.

Those are the powers delegated to Congress via our federal Constitution.

Yes, and they are specific. Tell us where the right to healthcare exists.

 

[Anathema]

So what happens when those without it go to an emergency room that by law has to treat them? Or should they die instead of being treated?

They shoild die, and thereby improve thge American gene pool.

 

[danielpalos]

And as I've stated, universal healthcare doesn't take away the choice, it ADDS choice.

Freedom is Slavery?

Slavery is freedom?

 

[danielpalos]

Well, that's just retarded logic.

Really? You see, I have the right to own a gun, I do NOT have the right to have government supply it for Me.
I have the right to purchase health care, I do not have the right to have government supply it for Me.

The government cannot force Me to buy a gun even though I have a right to buy it.
The government cannot force Me to buy health care even though I have a right to buy it.

Understand?

Yes, really.

I have the right to 'bear arms' ,yet I still need to buy one first.

I have the right to healthcare, yet I still need to buy into a private plan or pay taxes toward it.

Not a single person except you rw dimwits has said anything about ' free' healthcare.
Single payer is paid for with a dedicated tax that everyone must pay. Not unlike Medicare.

You do not have a constitutional right to free medical care, or medical care funded by taxes. You have a right to own a gun because of the second amendment.

If you think medical care is a constitutional right, quote the language from the constitution that makes it so.

You do not have a constitutional right to free medical care,

No one has said healthcare should be free, dumbass.

They say health care is a 'right'. What else does that mean?

The right wing is trying to "repeal that right"; they have no solutions, just repeal.

 

[bendog]

So what happens when those without it go to an emergency room that by law has to treat them? Or should they die instead of being treated?

They shoild die, and thereby improve thge American gene pool.

I'd thank you for playing if you tried, but I'll ignore you since you did not.