Iraq is imploding. Should we lend air support or wash our hands?

[Kondor3]

Way back I used to post on a political discussion forum much like this one. In the run-up to the Iraq war and for a while after shock and awe. Cons, maybe even some of the same as here were singing a different song back then. It was all "endless war on terror", "make the world safe for democracy", "to the ends of the earth". We libs were cowards and anti-American for warning about kicking over the hornet's nest. So fuck you, you broke it you don't want to fix it, fine by me. I know America can't fix it, unlike you guys who thought America could fix the whole friggin' world back then. I know what you're going to say, "It's Obama's fault". No it isn't, it's your fault for swallowing the neocon kool-aid and beating the jingoistic jungle drums for them. Haven't heard many cons apologize for passing around the poison and I don't expect you crazies to man up either. So keep singing your fucked up song, even though you've changed the words it's still the same looney tune.

There is enough blame to go around on all sides, when you get right down to it.

Spanning more than a decade, with multiple missed opportunities to avert or shorten our involvement.

You are right to pitch the beginning of this as a trumped-up Neo-Con casus belli.

But you neglect Centrist and Liberal involvement and acquiescence as well.

We ALL had a hand in this shitty mess.

ALL of us.

The best you can do is say: 'People who were better informed about the history and behavior of the region tried to caution against this, and the rest of the country didn't listen" - but, in truth, those who knew better came from Left, Right and Center, not just the Liberal wing.

Realism about the history and prospects for nation-building in the region are not a uniquely Left-leaning attribute.

And, frankly, other than to throw back a brickbat, against those laying the blame at the doorstep of our Dear Leader and Failed Messiah...

Throwing rocks about old shit doesn't really get us anywhere, in the context of trying to figure-out what to do now.

You're about half right. I was speaking in the context of these online discussion forums then and now. I don't remember one con voicing caution back then and now everything's Obama's fault. I have my problems with Obama but at least he hasn't started a war, as in Iraq that I'm not going to list the costs of. You know the toll. And "we all had a hand in this shitty mess" strikes a nice bi-partisan tone. That's nice political correctness today. Back then in the real world it was overwhelmingly lefties like Dennis Kucinich who, to howls of derision, spoke out passionately for the truth. And I parse out their share of the blame to the weak kneed liberals and centrists who went along with the neocons for fear of being smeared with the "un-patriotic" label. Self-preservation at the expense of the country.

And;

Throwing rocks about old shit doesn't really get us anywhere, in the context of trying to figure-out what to do now

I'm afraid there is no figuring out what to do now until and unless we're honest about how we got here. You know what they say about forgetting history.

We're going to have to agree to disagree about the apportioning of blame, and the motives (patriotism and concern for the country, vis a vis cowardly sheep-like compliance); I'm sure there was some considerable percentage of each, that went into that particular stew in 2003-2004.

As to 'remembering' the past, yes, I use that line from Santayana often enough myself, but, I suppose, my point is, that we already KNOW how we got here, and we already KNOW how Left, Right and Center have contributed to where we are now, so, rather than burning-up time and energy in pissing matches about the past, we (as a country) would be better off focusing our attention on where we go from here. It's no more complicated than that.

We been hashing and re-hashing this Blame Game shit over Iraq for 10-11 years already, and we haven't got a damned thing to show for it.

Just sayin'.

 

[Peach]

Way back I used to post on a political discussion forum much like this one. In the run-up to the Iraq war and for a while after shock and awe. Cons, maybe even some of the same as here were singing a different song back then. It was all "endless war on terror", "make the world safe for democracy", "to the ends of the earth". We libs were cowards and anti-American for warning about kicking over the hornet's nest. So fuck you, you broke it you don't want to fix it, fine by me. I know America can't fix it, unlike you guys who thought America could fix the whole friggin' world back then. I know what you're going to say, "It's Obama's fault". No it isn't, it's your fault for swallowing the neocon kool-aid and beating the jingoistic jungle drums for them. Haven't heard many cons apologize for passing around the poison and I don't expect you crazies to man up either. So keep singing your fucked up song, even though you've changed the words it's still the same looney tune.

There is enough blame to go around on all sides, when you get right down to it.

Spanning more than a decade, with multiple missed opportunities to avert or shorten our involvement.

You are right to pitch the beginning of this as a trumped-up Neo-Con casus belli.

But you neglect Centrist and Liberal involvement and acquiescence as well.

We ALL had a hand in this shitty mess.

ALL of us.

The best you can do is say: 'People who were better informed about the history and behavior of the region tried to caution against this, and the rest of the country didn't listen" - but, in truth, those who knew better came from Left, Right and Center, not just the Liberal wing.

Realism about the history and prospects for nation-building in the region are not a uniquely Left-leaning attribute.

And, frankly, other than to throw back a brickbat, against those laying the blame at the doorstep of our Dear Leader and Failed Messiah...

Throwing rocks about old shit doesn't really get us anywhere, in the context of trying to figure-out what to do now.

You're about half right. I was speaking in the context of these online discussion forums then and now. I don't remember one con voicing caution back then and now everything's Obama's fault. I have my problems with Obama but at least he hasn't started a war, as in Iraq that I'm not going to list the costs of. You know the toll. And "we all had a hand in this shitty mess" strikes a nice bi-partisan tone. That's nice political correctness today. Back then in the real world it was overwhelmingly lefties like Dennis Kucinich who, to howls of derision, spoke out passionately for the truth. And I parse out their share of the blame to the weak kneed liberals and centrists who went along with the neocons for fear of being smeared with the "un-patriotic" label. Self-preservation at the expense of the country.

And;

Throwing rocks about old shit doesn't really get us anywhere, in the context of trying to figure-out what to do now

I'm afraid there is no figuring out what to do now until and unless we're honest about how we got here. You know what they say about forgetting history.

Yes, we do so at our peril, we are reliving it now.

 

[paulitician]

I have Turkish friends who would gleefully see every Kurd wiped out. To them, the Kurds are just murderous thugs who kill women and children with as much joy as they kill male fighters.

They should make peace and allow the Kurds a Homeland. The Kurds have suffered enough. The World has forsaken them. They've been butchered by the Arabs, Persians, and Turks for Centuries. If any good can come from the Iraq War, it would be the Kurds finally getting a Homeland. They're a good honorable people. And they've been good trustworthy friends to us. I really am rooting for em.

The only friend the US has in the contrived nation, yes. And the only group in the nation that can accept those of differing faiths.

Yes, they've been a good stable ally over there. Through it all, they were there helping us. They've been kicked around for ages. It really would be nice seeing them finally have a Homeland. Like i said, i guess i have a soft spot for em.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

 

[Peach]

They should make peace and allow the Kurds a Homeland. The Kurds have suffered enough. The World has forsaken them. They've been butchered by the Arabs, Persians, and Turks for Centuries. If any good can come from the Iraq War, it would be the Kurds finally getting a Homeland. They're a good honorable people. And they've been good trustworthy friends to us. I really am rooting for em.

The only friend the US has in the contrived nation, yes. And the only group in the nation that can accept those of differing faiths.

Yes, they've been a good stable ally over there. Through it all, they were there helping us. They've been kicked around for ages. It really would be nice seeing them finally have a Homeland. Like i said, i guess i have a soft spot for em.

As do I.

 

[Contumacious]

Iraq is imploding. Should we lend air support or wash our hands?

Wash our hands.

The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. s.

It is truly amazing.

AL Qaeda is the US' friend in Syria and the administration militarily and financially assists it because they are fighting to defeat Bashar al-Assad .

But once they cross the border into Iraq they become "terrorists".

You don't know you ass frokm a hole in the ground.

.

Yes, a huge blunder committed by Obama. He shouldn't have funded & armed the Al Qaeda-linked Rebels in Syria. These groups are now wreaking havoc in both countries. He was so ill-advised on that. Putin warned him. Assad was the safer play. These groups are led by brutal Terrorist animals. Hey, it's a real mess. Nothing more can be said.

Its called blowback. You would thing that some assshole in the Pentagon specializes in preventing them since they have happened so many times.

 

[SmedlyButler]

There is enough blame to go around on all sides, when you get right down to it.

Spanning more than a decade, with multiple missed opportunities to avert or shorten our involvement.

You are right to pitch the beginning of this as a trumped-up Neo-Con casus belli.

But you neglect Centrist and Liberal involvement and acquiescence as well.

We ALL had a hand in this shitty mess.

ALL of us.

The best you can do is say: 'People who were better informed about the history and behavior of the region tried to caution against this, and the rest of the country didn't listen" - but, in truth, those who knew better came from Left, Right and Center, not just the Liberal wing.

Realism about the history and prospects for nation-building in the region are not a uniquely Left-leaning attribute.

And, frankly, other than to throw back a brickbat, against those laying the blame at the doorstep of our Dear Leader and Failed Messiah...

Throwing rocks about old shit doesn't really get us anywhere, in the context of trying to figure-out what to do now.

You're about half right. I was speaking in the context of these online discussion forums then and now. I don't remember one con voicing caution back then and now everything's Obama's fault. I have my problems with Obama but at least he hasn't started a war, as in Iraq that I'm not going to list the costs of. You know the toll. And "we all had a hand in this shitty mess" strikes a nice bi-partisan tone. That's nice political correctness today. Back then in the real world it was overwhelmingly lefties like Dennis Kucinich who, to howls of derision, spoke out passionately for the truth. And I parse out their share of the blame to the weak kneed liberals and centrists who went along with the neocons for fear of being smeared with the "un-patriotic" label. Self-preservation at the expense of the country.

And;

Throwing rocks about old shit doesn't really get us anywhere, in the context of trying to figure-out what to do now

I'm afraid there is no figuring out what to do now until and unless we're honest about how we got here. You know what they say about forgetting history.

We're going to have to agree to disagree about the apportioning of blame, and the motives (patriotism and concern for the country, vis a vis cowardly sheep-like compliance); I'm sure there was some considerable percentage of each, that went into that particular stew in 2003-2004.

As to 'remembering' the past, yes, I use that line from Santayana often enough myself, but, I suppose, my point is, that we already KNOW how we got here, and we already KNOW how Left, Right and Center have contributed to where we are now, so, rather than burning-up time and energy in pissing matches about the past, we (as a country) would be better off focusing our attention on where we go from here. It's no more complicated than that.

We been hashing and re-hashing this Blame Game shit over Iraq for 10-11 years already, and we haven't got a damned thing to show for it.

Just sayin'.

Without prejudice.

 

[bripat9643]

You know you're only proving that you're a king sized bigot, don't you?

 

[SmedlyButler]

You know you're only proving that you're a king sized bigot, don't you?

Political Correctness. Especially if it's actually funny. And that is.
What? All of a sudden you're the PC police? I've seen a few of your posts, you usually don't have that high of regard for it.

 

[AntiParty]

I have mixed feelings on this.

On one hand the middle east is a cesspool of savages and I just wish they would all kill each other off.

On the other hand do we stand by and let these savages gain control of a nation from which they would gain military assets to use against us?

Ignoring them won't make them leave us alone so whats the solution?

That religion based cesspool of savages is not unlike a large sum of people we have in America.........

 

[EriktheRed]

Wow this thread changed quickly to "Women's Rights" which the far left is against.

The far left hates women.

You really think that works?

 

[kaz]

Oh, that's right: Libertarians are the Party of fact-free strawmen.

From the guy who said this to someone who is against our involvement in the middle east and, unlike you, that position doesn't change based on which party is behind the steering wheel...

You talk like an extreme Rightwinger, then when called on it claim you are a libertarian, which is the same thing.

You may have been against the Iraq War but you are right with the wingnuts on just about everything else.

More evidence that Libertarians are just embarrassed Republicans.

There's an old joke. I speak every language except one, Greek. Go ahead and name any other one. Um..Latin? That's Greek to me!

Liberals are such simpletons you can only memorize one set of talking points and you're not bright enough to adapt them. So any politics that is not liberal is Republican to you!

So I'll bite, moron. Give me an issue I'm not libertarian on. I'm slapping you across the face with my glove and calling you a dickless little shemale. So back up your idiotic claim.

 

[dannyboys]

The terrorists are now marching on Bagdad. The Iraq government is asking for help, should we oblige?
Seems strange to me that we would spend all the money & lives just to let it fall in a matter of weeks/months.

Iraq's corrupt leaders told the US to fuck off out of their country last year.
Advice BOBO should have quickly taken.
Let AQ behead Iraq'a leaders on live TV.
The west no longer needs Iraq's oil.
Next time an Iraq leader calls BOBO the response should be 'CLICK'.

 

[NoNukes]

The Iranians are now in Iraq helping them. Should we join forces with them?

 

[Mac1958]

This may be a dumb question, but I'm trying to find a silver lining in this whole horrific mess.

This is about a lot more than just Iraq. Much of the Middle East is in play and we could literally be seeing the beginning of a re-drawing of the map over there. So:

Let's say this ISIS army (and that's pretty much what it is) succeeds in capturing some territory, be it Iraq or part of Syria or the Kurdish territory or some combination therein, whatever.

I can't imagine such a territory wouldn't attract more Jihadists from the region. Wouldn't that finally give us a key advantage that we've been lacking, an identifiable geographic location of much of the enemy?

.

 

[Peach]

There is enough blame to go around on all sides, when you get right down to it.

Spanning more than a decade, with multiple missed opportunities to avert or shorten our involvement.

You are right to pitch the beginning of this as a trumped-up Neo-Con casus belli.

But you neglect Centrist and Liberal involvement and acquiescence as well.

We ALL had a hand in this shitty mess.

ALL of us.

The best you can do is say: 'People who were better informed about the history and behavior of the region tried to caution against this, and the rest of the country didn't listen" - but, in truth, those who knew better came from Left, Right and Center, not just the Liberal wing.

Realism about the history and prospects for nation-building in the region are not a uniquely Left-leaning attribute.

And, frankly, other than to throw back a brickbat, against those laying the blame at the doorstep of our Dear Leader and Failed Messiah...

Throwing rocks about old shit doesn't really get us anywhere, in the context of trying to figure-out what to do now.

You're about half right. I was speaking in the context of these online discussion forums then and now. I don't remember one con voicing caution back then and now everything's Obama's fault. I have my problems with Obama but at least he hasn't started a war, as in Iraq that I'm not going to list the costs of. You know the toll. And "we all had a hand in this shitty mess" strikes a nice bi-partisan tone. That's nice political correctness today. Back then in the real world it was overwhelmingly lefties like Dennis Kucinich who, to howls of derision, spoke out passionately for the truth. And I parse out their share of the blame to the weak kneed liberals and centrists who went along with the neocons for fear of being smeared with the "un-patriotic" label. Self-preservation at the expense of the country.

And;

Throwing rocks about old shit doesn't really get us anywhere, in the context of trying to figure-out what to do now

I'm afraid there is no figuring out what to do now until and unless we're honest about how we got here. You know what they say about forgetting history.

We're going to have to agree to disagree about the apportioning of blame, and the motives (patriotism and concern for the country, vis a vis cowardly sheep-like compliance); I'm sure there was some considerable percentage of each, that went into that particular stew in 2003-2004.

As to 'remembering' the past, yes, I use that line from Santayana often enough myself, but, I suppose, my point is, that we already KNOW how we got here, and we already KNOW how Left, Right and Center have contributed to where we are now, so, rather than burning-up time and energy in pissing matches about the past, we (as a country) would be better off focusing our attention on where we go from here. It's no more complicated than that.

We been hashing and re-hashing this Blame Game shit over Iraq for 10-11 years already, and we haven't got a damned thing to show for it.

Just sayin'.

I agree. ISIS/ASI/ISIL must be countered, the question is, how?

 

[Kondor3]

...I agree. ISIS/ASI/ISIL must be countered, the question is, how?

Our choices seem clear:

1. let the Muslims fight it out amongst themselves

2. intervene

At present, I'm leaning heavily towards (1).

 

[Kondor3]

This may be a dumb question, but I'm trying to find a silver lining in this whole horrific mess.

This is about a lot more than just Iraq. Much of the Middle East is in play and we could literally be seeing the beginning of a re-drawing of the map over there. So:

Let's say this ISIS army (and that's pretty much what it is) succeeds in capturing some territory, be it Iraq or part of Syria or the Kurdish territory or some combination therein, whatever.

I can't imagine such a territory wouldn't attract more Jihadists from the region. Wouldn't that finally give us a key advantage that we've been lacking, an identifiable geographic location of much of the enemy?

.

That is a bit of a stretch, methinks, in justifying a hands-off policy for the present, and I'm going to have to give that one a 'hard think' before I buy into it, but, at first glance, it strikes me as a contender, to be included in the arsenal of talking-points in favor of leaving them to slug it out, without us intervening during the early going.

 

[Katzndogz]

We lack a leader. We have no one to direct any intervention. There is no choice but to let them fight it out unless someone else, some other country, steps up.

 

[Mac1958]

This may be a dumb question, but I'm trying to find a silver lining in this whole horrific mess.

This is about a lot more than just Iraq. Much of the Middle East is in play and we could literally be seeing the beginning of a re-drawing of the map over there. So:

Let's say this ISIS army (and that's pretty much what it is) succeeds in capturing some territory, be it Iraq or part of Syria or the Kurdish territory or some combination therein, whatever.

I can't imagine such a territory wouldn't attract more Jihadists from the region. Wouldn't that finally give us a key advantage that we've been lacking, an identifiable geographic location of much of the enemy?

.

That is a bit of a stretch, methinks, in justifying a hands-off policy for the present, and I'm going to have to give that one a 'hard think' before I buy into it, but, at first glance, it strikes me as a contender, to be included in the arsenal of talking-points in favor of leaving them to slug it out, without us intervening during the early going.

Yeah, no doubt it's a stretch.

The problem (well, ONE of them) is that there are so few if any bankable players over there. Who in the fuck are we supposed to "help"? We support one guy on one day, then before long we're fitting him for a noose.

It ain't our sand, let 'em do what they're gonna do.

.