Iraq is imploding. Should we lend air support or wash our hands?

[SmedlyButler]

Way back I used to post on a political discussion forum much like this one. In the run-up to the Iraq war and for a while after shock and awe. Cons, maybe even some of the same as here were singing a different song back then. It was all "endless war on terror", "make the world safe for democracy", "to the ends of the earth". We libs were cowards and anti-American for warning about kicking over the hornet's nest. So fuck you, you broke it you don't want to fix it, fine by me. I know America can't fix it, unlike you guys who thought America could fix the whole friggin' world back then. I know what you're going to say, "It's Obama's fault". No it isn't, it's your fault for swallowing the neocon kool-aid and beating the jingoistic jungle drums for them. Haven't heard many cons apologize for passing around the poison and I don't expect you crazies to man up either. So keep singing your fucked up song, even though you've changed the words it's still the same looney tune.

 

[georgephillip]

We should parachute drop Obama, Biden, Pelosi, Ried, and Holder right down town. Let them sort it out.

Along with Dick, Dubya, Condi, and a few Saudi royals.

 

[Kondor3]

Way back I used to post on a political discussion forum much like this one. In the run-up to the Iraq war and for a while after shock and awe. Cons, maybe even some of the same as here were singing a different song back then. It was all "endless war on terror", "make the world safe for democracy", "to the ends of the earth". We libs were cowards and anti-American for warning about kicking over the hornet's nest. So fuck you, you broke it you don't want to fix it, fine by me. I know America can't fix it, unlike you guys who thought America could fix the whole friggin' world back then. I know what you're going to say, "It's Obama's fault". No it isn't, it's your fault for swallowing the neocon kool-aid and beating the jingoistic jungle drums for them. Haven't heard many cons apologize for passing around the poison and I don't expect you crazies to man up either. So keep singing your fucked up song, even though you've changed the words it's still the same looney tune.

There is enough blame to go around on all sides, when you get right down to it.

Spanning more than a decade, with multiple missed opportunities to avert or shorten our involvement.

You are right to pitch the beginning of this as a trumped-up Neo-Con casus belli.

But you neglect Centrist and Liberal involvement and acquiescence as well.

We ALL had a hand in this shitty mess.

ALL of us.

The best you can do is say: 'People who were better informed about the history and behavior of the region tried to caution against this, and the rest of the country didn't listen" - but, in truth, those who knew better came from Left, Right and Center, not just the Liberal wing.

Realism about the history and prospects for nation-building in the region are not a uniquely Left-leaning attribute.

And, frankly, other than to throw back a brickbat, against those laying the blame at the doorstep of our Dear Leader and Failed Messiah...

Throwing rocks about old shit doesn't really get us anywhere, in the context of trying to figure-out what to do now.

 

[georgephillip]

Way back I used to post on a political discussion forum much like this one. In the run-up to the Iraq war and for a while after shock and awe. Cons, maybe even some of the same as here were singing a different song back then. It was all "endless war on terror", "make the world safe for democracy", "to the ends of the earth". We libs were cowards and anti-American for warning about kicking over the hornet's nest. So fuck you, you broke it you don't want to fix it, fine by me. I know America can't fix it, unlike you guys who thought America could fix the whole friggin' world back then. I know what you're going to say, "It's Obama's fault". No it isn't, it's your fault for swallowing the neocon kool-aid and beating the jingoistic jungle drums for them. Haven't heard many cons apologize for passing around the poison and I don't expect you crazies to man up either. So keep singing your fucked up song, even though you've changed the words it's still the same looney tune.

There is enough blame to go around on all sides, when you get right down to it.

Spanning more than a decade, with multiple missed opportunities to avert or shorten our involvement.

You are right to pitch the beginning of this as a trumped-up Neo-Con casus belli.

But you neglect Centrist and Liberal involvement and acquiescence as well.

We ALL had a hand in this shitty mess.

ALL of us.

The best you can do is say: 'People who were better informed about the history and behavior of the region tried to caution against this, and the rest of the country didn't listen" - but, in truth, those who knew better came from Left, Right and Center, not just the Liberal wing.

Realism about the history and prospects for nation-building in the region are not a uniquely Left-leaning attribute.

And, frankly, other than to throw back a brickbat, against those laying the blame at the doorstep of our Dear Leader and Failed Messiah...

Throwing rocks about old shit doesn't really get us anywhere, in the context of trying to figure-out what to do now.

We might start by noting the violence in Syria, Iraq and Ukraine are not unrelated.
Russia has untapped resources the west has been targeting since Lenin came to power.
Stopping the killing in the Middle East and Central Asia will be difficult if not impossible as long as arms sales and oil sales are the leading money makers in the world.
Can war be taxed into extinction?
Will the race survive if it isn't?

 

[Samson]

Way back I used to post on a political discussion forum much like this one. In the run-up to the Iraq war and for a while after shock and awe. Cons, maybe even some of the same as here were singing a different song back then. It was all "endless war on terror", "make the world safe for democracy", "to the ends of the earth". We libs were cowards and anti-American for warning about kicking over the hornet's nest. So fuck you, you broke it you don't want to fix it, fine by me. I know America can't fix it, unlike you guys who thought America could fix the whole friggin' world back then. I know what you're going to say, "It's Obama's fault". No it isn't, it's your fault for swallowing the neocon kool-aid and beating the jingoistic jungle drums for them. Haven't heard many cons apologize for passing around the poison and I don't expect you crazies to man up either. So keep singing your fucked up song, even though you've changed the words it's still the same looney tune.

There is enough blame to go around on all sides, when you get right down to it.

Spanning more than a decade, with multiple missed opportunities to avert or shorten our involvement.

You are right to pitch the beginning of this as a trumped-up Neo-Con casus belli.

But you neglect Centrist and Liberal involvement and acquiescence as well.

We ALL had a hand in this shitty mess.

ALL of us.

The best you can do is say: 'People who were better informed about the history and behavior of the region tried to caution against this, and the rest of the country didn't listen" - but, in truth, those who knew better came from Left, Right and Center, not just the Liberal wing.

Realism about the history and prospects for nation-building in the region are not a uniquely Left-leaning attribute.

And, frankly, other than to throw back a brickbat, against those laying the blame at the doorstep of our Dear Leader and Failed Messiah...

Throwing rocks about old shit doesn't really get us anywhere, in the context of trying to figure-out what to do now.

We might start by noting the violence in Syria, Iraq and Ukraine are not unrelated.
Russia has untapped resources the west has been targeting since Lenin came to power.
Stopping the killing in the Middle East and Central Asia will be difficult if not impossible as long as arms sales and oil sales are the leading money makers in the world.
Can war be taxed into extinction?
Will the race survive if it isn't?

Good thing we have the UN to resolve these situations.

 

[whitehall]

We could mop up those jihad A-holes in a day or two but the US has lost it's way under the "leadership" of a community activist. The strategy has always been to rely on the propaganda arm of the mainstream media to camouflage and divert attention from crisis and scandal after scandal until it seems as if it all blew over.

 

[Siete]

Way back I used to post on a political discussion forum much like this one. In the run-up to the Iraq war and for a while after shock and awe. Cons, maybe even some of the same as here were singing a different song back then. It was all "endless war on terror", "make the world safe for democracy", "to the ends of the earth". We libs were cowards and anti-American for warning about kicking over the hornet's nest. So fuck you, you broke it you don't want to fix it, fine by me. I know America can't fix it, unlike you guys who thought America could fix the whole friggin' world back then. I know what you're going to say, "It's Obama's fault". No it isn't, it's your fault for swallowing the neocon kool-aid and beating the jingoistic jungle drums for them. Haven't heard many cons apologize for passing around the poison and I don't expect you crazies to man up either. So keep singing your fucked up song, even though you've changed the words it's still the same looney tune.

There is enough blame to go around on all sides, when you get right down to it.

Spanning more than a decade, with multiple missed opportunities to avert or shorten our involvement.

You are right to pitch the beginning of this as a trumped-up Neo-Con casus belli.

But you neglect Centrist and Liberal involvement and acquiescence as well.

We ALL had a hand in this shitty mess.

ALL of us.

The best you can do is say: 'People who were better informed about the history and behavior of the region tried to caution against this, and the rest of the country didn't listen" - but, in truth, those who knew better came from Left, Right and Center, not just the Liberal wing.

Realism about the history and prospects for nation-building in the region are not a uniquely Left-leaning attribute.

And, frankly, other than to throw back a brickbat, against those laying the blame at the doorstep of our Dear Leader and Failed Messiah...

Throwing rocks about old shit doesn't really get us anywhere, in the context of trying to figure-out what to do now.

agreeing with smedley and Kondor ... +1

 

[edthecynic]

What happens to the price of oil?

We should be racing toward renewable energy, because this ME shit is inevitable.

Price of oil and gas under the USA rises.

Drill baby, drill....

Samson, do we export Oil that came from the USA soil/oceans, or do we use it ALL here in the USA? I've wondered? I think it's time we use ALL of American oil in the USA, if we are not already.

Gas products are our number one export.

 

[georgephillip]

There is enough blame to go around on all sides, when you get right down to it.

Spanning more than a decade, with multiple missed opportunities to avert or shorten our involvement.

You are right to pitch the beginning of this as a trumped-up Neo-Con casus belli.

But you neglect Centrist and Liberal involvement and acquiescence as well.

We ALL had a hand in this shitty mess.

ALL of us.

The best you can do is say: 'People who were better informed about the history and behavior of the region tried to caution against this, and the rest of the country didn't listen" - but, in truth, those who knew better came from Left, Right and Center, not just the Liberal wing.

Realism about the history and prospects for nation-building in the region are not a uniquely Left-leaning attribute.

And, frankly, other than to throw back a brickbat, against those laying the blame at the doorstep of our Dear Leader and Failed Messiah...

Throwing rocks about old shit doesn't really get us anywhere, in the context of trying to figure-out what to do now.

We might start by noting the violence in Syria, Iraq and Ukraine are not unrelated.
Russia has untapped resources the west has been targeting since Lenin came to power.
Stopping the killing in the Middle East and Central Asia will be difficult if not impossible as long as arms sales and oil sales are the leading money makers in the world.
Can war be taxed into extinction?
Will the race survive if it isn't?

Good thing we have the UN to resolve these situations.

Especially the five permanent members of the UNSC who are doing so much to slow global arms sales.

In January of 2013 the world spent about $1 trillion on arms sales, and I don't think it has decreased any since then.

The Arms Trade is Big Business ? Global Issues

 

[Samson]

What happens to the price of oil?

We should be racing toward renewable energy, because this ME shit is inevitable.

Price of oil and gas under the USA rises.

Drill baby, drill....

Samson, do we export Oil that came from the USA soil/oceans, or do we use it ALL here in the USA? I've wondered? I think it's time we use ALL of American oil in the USA, if we are not already.

Like any commodity, it doesn't matter where oil comes from: It is sold to the highest bidder.

For example: A barrel of oil in the USA is for sale. If you are in Australia, you could buy it, but then you'd have to pay the high freight cost to ship it; Thus, Aussies do not buy much oil from the USA. Instead, they buy it from Indonesia. But the price for the barrel in Indonesia in set by WORLD-WIDE DEMAND. The barrel in Indonesia costs about the same as the barrel in the USA.

Since we already have oil in the USA, transportation cost is minimized, and the USA has used almost all it produces. Recently, the USA was able to begin exporting small volumes of excess oil, but proportionally this is almost nothing. Much of this export goes to Europe, where they have no domestic resource, and must pay the transportation costs.

 

[Samson]

We might start by noting the violence in Syria, Iraq and Ukraine are not unrelated.
Russia has untapped resources the west has been targeting since Lenin came to power.
Stopping the killing in the Middle East and Central Asia will be difficult if not impossible as long as arms sales and oil sales are the leading money makers in the world.
Can war be taxed into extinction?
Will the race survive if it isn't?

Good thing we have the UN to resolve these situations.

Especially the five permanent members of the UNSC who are doing so much to slow global arms sales.

In January of 2013 the world spent about $1 trillion on arms sales, and I don't think it has decreased any since then.

The Arms Trade is Big Business ? Global Issues

If only there were some leader committed to hope and change.....

 

[Care4all]

We should parachute drop Obama, Biden, Pelosi, Ried, and Holder right down town. Let them sort it out.

Along with Dick, Dubya, Condi, and a few Saudi royals.

you forgot Rumsfeld!

 

[georgephillip]

Good thing we have the UN to resolve these situations.

Especially the five permanent members of the UNSC who are doing so much to slow global arms sales.

In January of 2013 the world spent about $1 trillion on arms sales, and I don't think it has decreased any since then.

The Arms Trade is Big Business ? Global Issues

If only there were some leader committed to hope and change.....

Bernie Sanders for president? It?s the longest of long shots, but that doesn?t mean he won?t do it. - The Washington Post

 

[Peach]

Especially the five permanent members of the UNSC who are doing so much to slow global arms sales.

In January of 2013 the world spent about $1 trillion on arms sales, and I don't think it has decreased any since then.

The Arms Trade is Big Business ? Global Issues

If only there were some leader committed to hope and change.....

Bernie Sanders for president? It?s the longest of long shots, but that doesn?t mean he won?t do it. - The Washington Post

Don't know; Wellstone is gone, where are the true statesmen?

 

[Samson]

Especially the five permanent members of the UNSC who are doing so much to slow global arms sales.

In January of 2013 the world spent about $1 trillion on arms sales, and I don't think it has decreased any since then.

The Arms Trade is Big Business ? Global Issues

If only there were some leader committed to hope and change.....

Bernie Sanders for president? It?s the longest of long shots, but that doesn?t mean he won?t do it. - The Washington Post

Obama still has 3 years....

 

[Synthaholic]

Yes, moron, libertarians are Republicans. Tell me again how you're the intelligent party, you're not black and white like Republicans and you respect diversity unlike the Republicans.

I was against Iraq under both W and Obama. You're a blind supporter of the party that was for Iraq before you were against it. The hypocrite is in your mirror.

Oh, that's right: Libertarians are the Party of fact-free strawmen.

From the guy who said this to someone who is against our involvement in the middle east and, unlike you, that position doesn't change based on which party is behind the steering wheel...

You talk like an extreme Rightwinger, then when called on it claim you are a libertarian, which is the same thing.

You may have been against the Iraq War but you are right with the wingnuts on just about everything else.

More evidence that Libertarians are just embarrassed Republicans.

 

[Synthaholic]

We should parachute drop Obama, Biden, Pelosi, Ried, and Holder right down town. Let them sort it out.

Blaming Iraq on Obama is like blaming your hangover on the person making you breakfast.

 

[SmedlyButler]

Way back I used to post on a political discussion forum much like this one. In the run-up to the Iraq war and for a while after shock and awe. Cons, maybe even some of the same as here were singing a different song back then. It was all "endless war on terror", "make the world safe for democracy", "to the ends of the earth". We libs were cowards and anti-American for warning about kicking over the hornet's nest. So fuck you, you broke it you don't want to fix it, fine by me. I know America can't fix it, unlike you guys who thought America could fix the whole friggin' world back then. I know what you're going to say, "It's Obama's fault". No it isn't, it's your fault for swallowing the neocon kool-aid and beating the jingoistic jungle drums for them. Haven't heard many cons apologize for passing around the poison and I don't expect you crazies to man up either. So keep singing your fucked up song, even though you've changed the words it's still the same looney tune.

There is enough blame to go around on all sides, when you get right down to it.

Spanning more than a decade, with multiple missed opportunities to avert or shorten our involvement.

You are right to pitch the beginning of this as a trumped-up Neo-Con casus belli.

But you neglect Centrist and Liberal involvement and acquiescence as well.

We ALL had a hand in this shitty mess.

ALL of us.

The best you can do is say: 'People who were better informed about the history and behavior of the region tried to caution against this, and the rest of the country didn't listen" - but, in truth, those who knew better came from Left, Right and Center, not just the Liberal wing.

Realism about the history and prospects for nation-building in the region are not a uniquely Left-leaning attribute.

And, frankly, other than to throw back a brickbat, against those laying the blame at the doorstep of our Dear Leader and Failed Messiah...

Throwing rocks about old shit doesn't really get us anywhere, in the context of trying to figure-out what to do now.

You're about half right. I was speaking in the context of these online discussion forums then and now. I don't remember one con voicing caution back then and now everything's Obama's fault. I have my problems with Obama but at least he hasn't started a war, as in Iraq that I'm not going to list the costs of. You know the toll. And "we all had a hand in this shitty mess" strikes a nice bi-partisan tone. That's nice political correctness today. Back then in the real world it was overwhelmingly lefties like Dennis Kucinich who, to howls of derision, spoke out passionately for the truth. And I parse out their share of the blame to the weak kneed liberals and centrists who went along with the neocons for fear of being smeared with the "un-patriotic" label. Self-preservation at the expense of the country.

And;

Throwing rocks about old shit doesn't really get us anywhere, in the context of trying to figure-out what to do now

I'm afraid there is no figuring out what to do now until and unless we're honest about how we got here. You know what they say about forgetting history.

 

[Synthaholic]

Way back I used to post on a political discussion forum much like this one. In the run-up to the Iraq war and for a while after shock and awe. Cons, maybe even some of the same as here were singing a different song back then. It was all "endless war on terror", "make the world safe for democracy", "to the ends of the earth". We libs were cowards and anti-American for warning about kicking over the hornet's nest. So fuck you, you broke it you don't want to fix it, fine by me. I know America can't fix it, unlike you guys who thought America could fix the whole friggin' world back then. I know what you're going to say, "It's Obama's fault". No it isn't, it's your fault for swallowing the neocon kool-aid and beating the jingoistic jungle drums for them. Haven't heard many cons apologize for passing around the poison and I don't expect you crazies to man up either. So keep singing your fucked up song, even though you've changed the words it's still the same looney tune.

There is enough blame to go around on all sides, when you get right down to it.

But that doesn't mean the blame is evenly distributed.

There is no equivalency between the Bushies/NeoCons who pushed for and prosecuted the war with Democrats who voted to give the Commander In Chief the authority to invade as a last resort.

None.

 

[Peach]

We should parachute drop Obama, Biden, Pelosi, Ried, and Holder right down town. Let them sort it out.

Blaming Iraq on Obama is like blaming your hangover on the person making you breakfast.

Send Rumsfeld, he can yell at ISIS; Bush II would wet his pants at the sound of gunfire, a shoe scared him. Boehner won't put down the bottle long enough to go, McConnell is in hiding.