Islam forbids

[Mr.Fitnah]

his argument would still be correct.

No, it would still be a flawed conclusion.

 

[Kalam]

his argument would still be correct.

No, it would still be a flawed conclusion.

You've done absolutely nothing to demonstrate this. Please address his argument point-by-point and explain why it's incorrect. As far as abrogation is concerned, no other interpretation can be said to be in line with the Qur'an. The heretics are those who twist the words of the Qur'an and claim that the word of Allah (SWT) was in need of abrogation and correction.

The Lie Of Quranic Abrogation | Free Quran Online
A Study of the Quran | Doctrine of Abrogation
Not a Single Verse of the Quran is Abrogated?
The Islamic Calendars and Others- Understadning, calculating Ramadan, Hajj and other Islamic events-Hilal-Crescent-new-Calendar-dates-Prophet Muhammed, Mohammed-Islam (Submission)-Hadith and Sunna in Islam (Submission)- Ahadith-Sunnah-Quran, Qur'an,
False Accusations

etc., etc., etc.

 

[THE LIGHT]

Well, being the great grandson of Muhammad and being a Muslim you would think that he would be a good example of the teachings his great grandfather bestowed upon him.

Ismail ibn Sharif lived in the 18th century, Herodotus.

Actually the 17th century ... but yeah, my bad. I read it wrong, as he is a descendant of Muhammad's grandson but not the grandson.

However, the question still stands. As a notable descendant of Mohammad, should he not be a good representative of his relative's and fellow brother's religion?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Naskh
(1) Abrogation, revocation, repeal. Theoretical tool used to resolve contradictions in Quranic verses, hadith literature, tafsir (Quranic exegesis), and usul al-fiqh (roots of law), whereby later verses (or reports or decisions) abrogate earlier ones. Based on Quranic verse ( 2:106 ) according to which God occasionally replaces older verses with better ones. (2) A style of Arabic calligraphy.

Naskh - Oxford Islamic Studies Online

Sword Verses.
Muslim tradition describes several different verses of the Qur῾ān as the “sword verse” (usually given in the Arabic singular āyat al-sayf   &#8202. These include Qur῾ān 9:5, the verse most commonly designated the sword verse par excellence, because it is believed to contain the command revealed by God and because it proclaimed at the pilgrimage of the year 631 C.E. that polytheism would henceforth be proscribed and that all Arabian polytheists, at least, would henceforth be required to embrace Islam. Verses 2:191, 193; 4:89, 91; 8:39; 9:29, 36, 73, 123; and 66:9 all likewise appear to mandate an unlimited military struggle until the superiority of Islam is acknowledged, either by submission to a tax in the case of followers of organized scriptural religions (9:29), or by adoption of Islam in the case of the Arabian polytheists.

Basing themselves partly on the sword verse and expanding the caliphate's claims, some Muslim religious scholars elaborated a doctrine of abrogation (naskh) which held that certain Qur῾ānic verses had cancelled others in whole or in part. In particular, they asserted that the sword verse had cancelled many verses calling for negotiation, patience, peace, compassion, and mercy. Such verses could be seen as restraining the rulers’ claims to pursue universal dominion, and their negation could be viewed as freeing the rulers’ hands. The doctrine of naskh can be traced to the eighth century C.E., and it reached its zenith with Hibat Allāh ibn Salāmah (d. 1019) and Ibn Hazm (d. 1064), who each cited over two hundred abrogated verses, most of these allegedly nullified by the sword verse. This tradition continued in the Hanbalī school with al-Karmī (d. 1623) and others.

At the same time, a trend arose opposing the radical excision of verses from the sacred text through naskh. Because the possibility of abrogation exists in Qur῾ān 2:106, the opponents of naskh sought simply to limit its use, instead of denying abrogation altogether. Abū Ja῾far al-Naḥḥās (d. 949), Ibn al-Jawzī (d. 1201), and al-Suyūtī (d. 1505) all accepted only twenty or so cases of naskh, none involving the sword verse. Later, the naskh doctrine continued to retreat, with the abrogated verses declining to twelve for al-Zarqānī (d. 1688) and five for Shāh Walī Allāh al-Dihlawī (d. 1762). Many recent works deny abrogation altogether, as naskh is seen as compromising the integrity of the Qur῾ān. The trend to minimized abrogation won over even the Hanbalīs eventually, and few Muslims today support massive abrogation of Qur῾ānic verses.

Although the medieval and modern anti-abrogationists have not explicitly opposed the sword verse or the imperative to fight in God's path, they have certainly opened the door to a more irenic interpretation. Normally, they specify that the sword verses were directed only at the Arabian polytheists and that they have no general application beyond that. In practice, Muslims have tolerated polytheistic religions outside of Arabia and have completely given up the idea of gaining universal dominion by force.

See also Qur῾ān, subentry on History of the Text.

Bibliography
Kamali, Mohammad Hashim. Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence. Rev. ed. Cambridge, U.K., 1991. See pp. 164–165.
Qadhi, Abu Ammaar Yasir. An Introduction to the Sciences of the Qur῾aan. Birmingham, U.K., 1999. See pp. 250–255.

Sword Verses. - Oxford Islamic Studies Online



He did not say, “if they pay the jizyah”. The Jews, Christians and Magians are to be asked to enter Islam; if they refuse then they should be asked to pay the jizyah. If they refuse to pay the jizyah then the Muslims must fight them if they are able to do so. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allaah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allaah and His Messenger (Muhammad), (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued”

[al-Tawbah 9:29]

And it was proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) accepted the jizyah from the Magians, but it was not proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) or his companions (may Allaah be pleased with them) accepted the jizyah from anyone except the three groups mentioned above.

The basic principle concerning that is the words of Allaah (interpretation of the meaning):

“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allaah), and the religion (worship) will all be for Allaah Alone [in the whole of the world]”

[al-Anfaal 8:39]

“Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikoon (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism] and perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”

[al-Tawbah 9:5]

This verse is known as Ayat al-Sayf (the verse of the sword).

These and similar verses abrogate the verses which say that there is no compulsion to become Muslim.

And Allaah is the Source of strength.

Islam Question and Answer - There is no compulsion to accept Islam

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Here are a few .
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1472934-post617.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1457051-post142.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1398369-post444.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1397570-post438.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1397169-post435.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1391044-post23.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1386873-post676.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1362813-post273.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1359548-post196.html
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1341789-post76.html

Although your lies are part of the thread they do not constitute proof.
Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.

We can add this one as well

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1474541-post644.html

Another one.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1476060-post653.html

Again
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1489948-post762.html

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

his argument would still be correct.

No, it would still be a flawed conclusion.

You've done absolutely nothing to demonstrate this
etc., etc., etc.

Now you have resorted to lies.
You can post 100 opinions , the fact remains Naskh exists. Period
You can have your own opinions, but not you own facts.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

his argument would still be correct.

No, it would still be a flawed conclusion.

You've done absolutely nothing to demonstrate this. Please address his argument point-by-point and explain why it's incorrect. As far as abrogation is concerned, no other interpretation can be said to be in line with the Qur'an. The heretics are those who twist the words of the Qur'an and claim that the word of Allah (SWT) was in need of abrogation and correction.

The Lie Of Quranic Abrogation | Free Quran Online
A Study of the Quran | Doctrine of Abrogation
Not a Single Verse of the Quran is Abrogated?
The Islamic Calendars and Others- Understadning, calculating Ramadan, Hajj and other Islamic events-Hilal-Crescent-new-Calendar-dates-Prophet Muhammed, Mohammed-Islam (Submission)-Hadith and Sunna in Islam (Submission)- Ahadith-Sunnah-Quran, Qur'an,
False Accusations

etc., etc., etc.

LOL... I keep seeing these flaccid little defenses of 'Islam is a religion of peace'... and still there exists Muslims blowing other muslims to hell all over the planet.

And all in the name of Allah and all professing the teachings of Mohammad.

Now one begins to wonder why it is that Muslims, such as yourself, who are bleeding these lies... IF what you say is true... that these Muslims who are determined to kill anyone who contests their own faith; those that see such who contest their faith as being 'infidels,' thus being worthy of destruction... are liars; that these liars are dishonoring Islam through the speaking of lies about what Islam means and demonstrating acts anathema to Islam... that the VAST MAJORITY of the planets Muslim believe differently... where the hell are you in the fight to save Islam, from those who are purpetrating evil in the name of Islam; which is the ONLY potential conclusion, which your argument can bring...

If there existed a Baptist cult who was sending bombs to destroy the non-baptists, based purely on their standing as non-Baptists... As a Baptists, I'd be on the front line outing such liars... Where I found one in out church... I'd out him to the Church and the civil authorities... there would be no where for these idiots to gather without a true Baptists pointing to them and declaring them liars and murderers...

They would NOT be able to fly the Baptist flag, as the world would know them by their true, wholly anti-Baptist lies. There would be NO PLACE on earth, where such people could call themselves Baptists... We would have Baptist preachers all over the world STRIPPING THE MURDERERS OF ANY HOPE OF BEING KNOWN AS BAPTISTS... Unless... of course... The MAJORITY OF THE BAPTIST WORLD EMBRACED THEM... EXCEPT, where the Baptists accepted them into their Churches, held them up as HEROS and blessed them with adoration for their piety and Baptist virtue... Which of course would mean that Baptists were complicit in the evil... that the Baptists were not a religion of peace... but were in truth, the purveyors of death to anyone who believed differently than themselves... and were determined to rid the world of non-baptists and enslave the survivors of the war against non-Baptists.

And given that argument, we find that... there is no place where one can go and find ANYTHING approaching an Islamic Jihad against the Terrorist Jihad... Terrorist Muslims are welcome in every Mosque... they walk amongst the Muslims throughout Muslim communities... there is no place that I know of where the would-be liars of Terrorist Islam are being identified as such; except these tedious little defenses of Islam, buried in the backwaters of message boards and chat rooms.

Friend Kalam... point out for us, the Mosque which openly declares "Jihadi TERRORIST ISLAM IS A LIE! TERRORIST MUSLIMS ARE NOT WELCOMED!" Point out to us, the Mosques, where the leaders of such have openly turned over the names of those who are members of their flock, who have expressed support for Jihad; read: Terrorism; and OPENLY run their terrorist asses OUT OF THAT MOSQUE... Publicly, overtly outting them as betrayers of Islam and turning their backs to them; refusing them the nuorishment of fellowship within that Mosque...



Take your time... but know that where you fail to bring to light the movements within the Islamic community which OPENLY REJECT, VEHEMENTLY DETEST, PUBLICALLY REBUKE Terrorist Jihad and REFUSE TO ALLOW those who have adhered to such within their Mosque; within their community...; and DO SO ON THE AUTHORITY OF ALLAH AND HIS SCRIPTURE ITSELF; where you fail to produce that... you fail to demonstrate that Islam is a religion of Peace.

 

[JW Frogen]

Rather than what Islam forbids I think we should look to the smaller list, what does Islam allow?

Other than date cultivation, genital mutilation and hamburger helper suicide heaven.

 

[Kalam]

Now you have resorted to lies.

You've demonstrated conclusively that Ali's argument is false? No, I'm afraid I wasn't "lying."

You can post 100 opinions , the fact remains Naskh exists. Period
You can have your own opinions, but not you own facts.

The only abrogation that occurred - according to the Qur'an - was its abrogation of previous scriptures. You can flatly deny this as much as you'd like, but you have not and most likely will not offer anything in the way of proof.

 

[Kalam]

LOL... I keep seeing these flaccid little defenses of 'Islam is a religion of peace'... and still there exists Muslims blowing other muslims to hell all over the planet.

I've never contended that Islam is a "religion of peace." It dedicates itself to resisting oppression in all of its forms. It's a religion of just requital.

If you're looking for Islamic condemnations of "the turrurists," all you have to do is hit up google.

IkhwanWeb
Statements Against Terror
IslamiCity.com - Muslim Americans Condemn Attack
BBC News | AMERICAS | Islamic world deplores US losses
Islam Online- News Section
Scholars of Islam & the Tragedy of Sept. 11th
Islam Online- News Section
Daily Telegraph: Bin Laden's violence is a heresy against Islam
Defending the Transgressed: Mudafi' al-Mazlum
BBC News | MIDDLE EAST | Grand Sheikh condemns suicide bombings
BBC News | MIDDLE EAST | Iran condemns attacks on US
Islam Online- News Section
The American Muslim (TAM)

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

LOL... I keep seeing these flaccid little defenses of 'Islam is a religion of peace'... and still there exists Muslims blowing other muslims to hell all over the planet.
I've never contended that Islam is a "religion of peace." It dedicates itself to resisting oppression in all of its forms. It's a religion of just requital.

If you're looking for Islamic condemnations of "the turrurists," all you have to do is hit up google.

Same old empty rhetoric
Many muslims like to say "Islam forbids the killing of innocent people",Please prove unequivocally using Islamic scripture that non muslims are innocent,

IkhwanWeb

From the Hitlers Imam site

Statements Against Terror

We express our deepest sympathies and sorrow. We condemn, in the strongest terms, the incidents, which are against all human and Islamic norms. This is grounded in the Noble Laws of Islam which forbid all forms of attacks on innocents.

IslamiCity.com - Muslim Americans Condemn Attack

"American Muslims utterly condemn what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians

BBC News | AMERICAS | Islamic world deplores US losses

Blame the jews

Islam Online- News Section

We condemn these savage and criminal acts which are anathema to all human conventions and values and the monotheist religions, led by Islam,"Unproven

Scholars of Islam & the Tragedy of Sept. 11th

“We are grief-stricken at these horrifying events,” they wrote; “the murder of innocents can never be justified and must not be tolerated.”

Islam Online- News Section

Islam, the religion of tolerance, holds the human soul in high esteem, and considers the attack against innocent human beings a grave sin, this is backed by the Qur'anic verse which reads:

Daily Telegraph: Bin Laden's violence is a heresy against Islam

An insurrectionist who kills non-combatants is guilty of baghy, "armed transgression", a capital offence in Islamic law. A jihad can be proclaimed only by a properly constituted state; anything else is pure vigilantism.Unadultrated horseshit

Defending the Transgressed: Mudafi' al-Mazlum

Nonsense unislamic nonsesne

BBC News | MIDDLE EAST | Grand Sheikh condemns suicide bombings

sheikh said that Islam considers anyone who kills an innocent person as killing the whole of humanity.None muslims cannot be innocent

BBC News | MIDDLE EAST | Iran condemns attacks on US

Empty rhetoric

Islam Online- News Section

The president of al-Azhar University, Ahmed Omar Hasham, said that Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance and stability. "It does not call for aggression or injustice. False

The American Muslim (TAM)

Same shit no defintion of innocent

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Now you have resorted to lies.

You've demonstrated conclusively that Ali's argument is false? No, I'm afraid I wasn't "lying."

You can post 100 opinions , the fact remains Naskh exists. Period
You can have your own opinions, but not you own facts.

The only abrogation that occurred - according to the Qur'an - was its abrogation of previous scriptures. You can flatly deny this as much as you'd like, but you have not and most likely will not offer anything in the way of proof.

Its a plain fact, one you refuse to acknowledge . Its OK You have to.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/1490020-post764.html

 

[John Lemmon]

With all those korans lying around, at least you muzzyz have some toilet paper now.

 

[Kalam]

Its a plain fact, one you refuse to acknowledge.

Prove that the Qur'an refers to abrogation of itself. Prove that we're supposed to completely ignore the context of both 2:106 and 16:101.

 

[Kalam]

The president of al-Azhar University, Ahmed Omar Hasham, said that Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance and stability. "It does not call for aggression or injustice. False

You heard it here first, folks. Fitnuts knows more about Islam than both the Grand Imam and the President of the most important and respected Sunni Islamic university in the world.

 

[Sunni Man]

So do we call him Imam Fitnuts now ?

 

[Liability]

The president of al-Azhar University, Ahmed Omar Hasham, said that Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance and stability. "It does not call for aggression or injustice. False

You heard it here first, folks. Fitnuts knows more about Islam than both the Grand Imam and the President of the most important and respected Sunni Islamic university in the world.

No. He's just calling them liars. They are probably more than smart enough to know that what they said is untrue.

 

[Kalam]

However, the question still stands. As a notable descendant of Mohammad, should he not be a good representative of his relative's and fellow brother's religion?

No. Want to know another notable descendant of Muhammad (SAW)? Brooke Shields. You and I probably are, too. It doesn't really mean anything.

"The longer ago somebody lived, the more descendants a person is likely to have today. Humphrys estimates that Muhammad, the founder of Islam, appears on the family tree of every person in the Western world."​

Does your family have royal roots? - More health news- msnbc.com

 

[Kalam]

The president of al-Azhar University, Ahmed Omar Hasham, said that Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance and stability. "It does not call for aggression or injustice. False

You heard it here first, folks. Fitnuts knows more about Islam than both the Grand Imam and the President of the most important and respected Sunni Islamic university in the world.

No. He's just calling them liars. They are probably more than smart enough to know that what they said is untrue.

Accusations of dishonesty are typically accompanied by specific evidence of the person in question being dishonest. I guess that doesn't apply to Muslims. How nice it must be to "prove" any Muslim wrong simply by declaring him a liar!

 

[Kalam]

So do we call him Imam Fitnuts now ?

Imam Fitnuts, Grand Custodian of the Holy USMB Mosque and President of the esteemed Fitnuts Institute of Islamic Studies.

Who knew that the requirements for being an expert on the religion were so lax?