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Much better post,Specifics please
.Time, place, statements of goals, that prove the actions to be unislamic.
The Mihna, 833 CE, Abbasid Caliphate - "Al-Ma'mun introduced the mihna with the intension to centralize religious power in the caliphal institution and test the loyalty of his subjects." - Al-Ma'mun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The controversy over the mihna was exacerbated by al-Ma'mun's sympathy for Mu'tazili theology and other controversial views. Mu'tazili theology was deeply influenced by Aristotelian thought and Greek rationalism, and stated that matters of belief and practice should be decided by reasoning. This opposed the traditionalist and literalist position of Ahmad ibn Hanbal and others, according to which everything a believer needed to know about faith and practice was spelled out literally in the Qur'an and the Hadith. Moreover, the Mu'tazilis stated that the Qur'an was created rather than coeternal with God, a belief that was shared by the Jahmites and parts of Shi'a, among others, but contradicted the traditionalist-Sunni opinion that the Qur'an and the Divine were coeternal. The fact that the Mu'tazili school had its foundations in the paganism of Greece further disenchanted a majority of Islamic clerics.This exacerbated ideological divisions by punishing scholars who favored literalist interpretations. This was done in blatant contradiction of the Qur'an, which forbids sectarian strife:
And hold fast by the covenant of Allah all together and be not disunited. And remember Allahs favour to you when you were enemies, then He united your hearts so by His favour you became brethren. And you were on the brink of a pit of fire, then He saved you from it. Thus Allah makes clear to you His messages that you may be guided. - 3:103
Misinterpreters should have been taught the error of their ways non-violently. We should avoid being like them, but shouldn't coerce them into subscribing to our beliefs:
And from among you there should be a party who invite to good and enjoin the right and forbid the wrong. And these are they who are successful. And be not like those who became divided and disagreed after clear arguments had come to them. And for them is a grievous chastisement. - 3:104-105
There are some many rules in Islam that these "innocent people" could be breaking it is impossible to say they are "innocent muslims" .The Janjaweed would have to explain there jihad, It certainly seems Islamic.Terrorizing people to establish and Islamic state .There are too many examples of corrupt autocracies in the Islamic world for us to concern ourselves with specifics. Pick any so-called "Islamic" nation and in all likelihood you'll find that it's un-Qur'anic in nature. In the absence of the Messenger ﷺ, the only appropriate form of governance is that which involves all believers engaging in mutual consultation:
So whatever you are given is but a provision of this worlds life, and that which Allah has is better and more lasting for those who believe and rely on their Lord; and those who shun the great sins and indecencies, and whenever they are angry they forgive; and those who respond to their Lord and keep up prayer, and whose affairs are (decided) by counsel ("shura") among themselves, and who spend out of what We have given them; and those who, when great wrong afflicts them, defend themselves. - 42:36-29
The most obvious example of innocent Muslims being slaughtered by other Muslims is the current conflict in Darfur. The war in this case began largely because of ethnic discrimination (on the part of the Sudanese government, which is dominated by Arabic-speaking Blacks), something that has no place in Islam. The ummah is supposed to be a single, unified community that pays no regard to racial and ethnic differences:
O mankind, surely We have created you from a male and a female, and made you tribes and families that you may know each other. Surely the noblest of you with Allah is the most dutiful of you. Surely Allah is Knowing, Aware. - 49:13
And (all) people are but a single nation, then they disagree. And had not a word already gone forth from thy Lord, the matter would have certainly been decided between them in respect of that wherein they disagree. - 10:19
The Janjaweed and their Sudanese backers wouldn't know; I doubt they ask their victims questions about their beliefs and practices before raping and killing them. Incidentally, their rape is un-Islamic:There are some many rules in Islam that these "innocent people" could be breaking it is impossible to say they are "innocent muslims".
The Janjaweed would have to explain there jihad, It certainly seems Islamic.Terrorizing people to establish and Islamic state .
True, but mine consists of drawing fairly simple conclusions based on what's written in the Qur'an.As you know, since their are other interpretations than yours, your claim is already on shaky ground ,so I wouldnt work to hard on your post.
The backbone of my posts is sitting directly in front of me. It's a matter of knowing where to find relevant passages.
All of which are subject to YOUR interpretation.
True, but mine consists of drawing fairly simple conclusions based on what's written in the Qur'an.The backbone of my posts is sitting directly in front of me. It's a matter of knowing where to find relevant passages.
All of which are subject to YOUR interpretation.
True, but the persecution was done in an attempt to consolidate power, not in an attempt to forcibly spread Mu'tazili beliefs. Even if we wanted to persecute traditionalists today, we wouldn't be able to. We're outnumbered for the time being.Much better post,
A follower of the Mutazili school was the one who started the problem and persecuted traditionalist, as you still do today.
Perhaps, but one is based on the Qur'an and the other on aspects of Shafi'i jurisprudence that seemingly lack a Qur'anic basis.In any case seems there are degree by which one pases through to right wrongs before one reaches the point of murder , the New Mu'tazili doctrine of dealing with munkar is pragmatic, as it takes into account how much it harms the Islamic community, yet both approaches can be seen as Islam .
Commanding the Right & Forbidding the Wrong
True, but mine consists of drawing fairly simple conclusions based on what's written in the Qur'an.All of which are subject to YOUR interpretation.
But which require you to ignore or contradict other things written in the Qur'an.
True, but mine consists of drawing fairly simple conclusions based on what's written in the Qur'an.The backbone of my posts is sitting directly in front of me. It's a matter of knowing where to find relevant passages.
All of which are subject to YOUR interpretation.
True, but mine consists of drawing fairly simple conclusions based on what's written in the Qur'an.
But which require you to ignore or contradict other things written in the Qur'an.
What are some examples of things in the Qur'an that I ignore or contradict? Be careful before copying and pasting verses, and read the passages in their proper context.
What value do you see in endlessly looping and repeating discussions we've already had?
Let's make it simpler.
Either come right out and STATE that in your esteemed opinion there is nothing contradictory in any of the passages of the Qur'an -- OR -- admit that some of the passages DO contradict other passages.
Let's make THAT the point of departure to help focus this little chat.
I SEEM to recall (although I might have you confused with somebody else, I guess) that YOU have taken the position that there is no valid doctrine of "abrogation regarding "Qur'anic interpretation
If it wasn't you, I apologize in advance. If it was you, then aren't you one of the ones who maintains that there are no contradictions in any of the passages of the Qur'an?
* * * *
I've repeatedly stated that abrogation is a false doctrine and that the Qur'an was meant to be interpreted in such a way that its message is consistent. I don't understand how any sincere Muslim can believe that the Qur'an contains corrected errors and internal contradictions.
Then you ARE of the belief/opinion that no passages of the Qur'an are at all contradictory with any other passages of the Qur'an?
Is that a fair re-statement of your belief?
Then you ARE of the belief/opinion that no passages of the Qur'an are at all contradictory with any other passages of the Qur'an?
Is that a fair re-statement of your belief?
What value do you see in endlessly looping and repeating discussions we've already had?
Let's make it simpler.
Either come right out and STATE that in your esteemed opinion there is nothing contradictory in any of the passages of the Qur'an -- OR -- admit that some of the passages DO contradict other passages.
Let's make THAT the point of departure to help focus this little chat.
I SEEM to recall (although I might have you confused with somebody else, I guess) that YOU have taken the position that there is no valid doctrine of "abrogation regarding "Qur'anic interpretation
If it wasn't you, I apologize in advance. If it was you, then aren't you one of the ones who maintains that there are no contradictions in any of the passages of the Qur'an?
I've repeatedly stated that abrogation is a false doctrine and that the Qur'an was meant to be interpreted in such a way that its message is consistent. I don't understand how any sincere Muslim can believe that the Qur'an contains corrected errors and internal contradictions.
Then you ARE of the belief/opinion that no passages of the Qur'an are at all contradictory with any other passages of the Qur'an?
Is that a fair re-statement of your belief?
Go ahead and post whatever it is you're going to post.
starting @ 5:20True, but mine consists of drawing fairly simple conclusions based on what's written in the Qur'an.All of which are subject to YOUR interpretation.
But which require you to ignore or contradict other things written in the Qur'an.
Contradictions / Difficulties in the Qur'an NOTE: ALL of the above examples are quoted and excerpted from and found at the linked cite.Can Allah be seen and did Muhammad see his Lord? Yes [S. 53:1-18, 81:15-29], No [6:102-103, 42:51].
Can Angels Cause the Death of People? The Qur'an attacks those who worship anyone besides God (e.g. angels or prophets) because those can neither create, nor give life, nor cause anyone to die. Yet, the Qur'an explicitly states that one angel or several angels are causing certain people to die [Sura 4:97, 16:28, 32, 32:11].
To Marry or Not to Marry? The Qur'an forbids believers to marry idolatrous women [Sura 2:221], and calls Christians idolaters and unbelievers [9:28-33], but still allows Muslims to marry Christian women [5:5].
[How about the doctrine of ABROGATION itself!?]
Abrogation? "The words of the Lord are perfect in truth and justice; there is NONE who can change His words." [Sura 6:115] Also see 6:34 and 10:64. But then Allah (Muhammad?) sees the need to exchange some of them for "better ones" [Sura 2:106, 16:101]. And it is not for ignorant people to question Allah because of such practices!
No reply from Kalam? Damn. I hadn't even called him Malarky today.
Anyway, since he doesn't wish to get "pinned down' (BWUCK BWUCK BWUUUUCK!) I'll just humor him by starting it:
Contradictions / Difficulties in the Qur'an NOTE: ALL of the above examples are quoted and excerpted from and found at the linked cite.Can Allah be seen and did Muhammad see his Lord? Yes [S. 53:1-18, 81:15-29], No [6:102-103, 42:51].
Can Angels Cause the Death of People? The Qur'an attacks those who worship anyone besides God (e.g. angels or prophets) because those can neither create, nor give life, nor cause anyone to die. Yet, the Qur'an explicitly states that one angel or several angels are causing certain people to die [Sura 4:97, 16:28, 32, 32:11].
To Marry or Not to Marry? The Qur'an forbids believers to marry idolatrous women [Sura 2:221], and calls Christians idolaters and unbelievers [9:28-33], but still allows Muslims to marry Christian women [5:5].
[How about the doctrine of ABROGATION itself!?]
Abrogation? "The words of the Lord are perfect in truth and justice; there is NONE who can change His words." [Sura 6:115] Also see 6:34 and 10:64. But then Allah (Muhammad?) sees the need to exchange some of them for "better ones" [Sura 2:106, 16:101]. And it is not for ignorant people to question Allah because of such practices!
Even HOW Allah sent the Qur'an down to man is a matter of self-contradiction within the Qur'an: Qur'an Contradiction: The descent of the Quran -- piecemeal or all at once?
Do no passages of the Qur'an, in your view, contradict other passages of the Qur'an?
