Islam forbids

[Mr.Fitnah]

Never mind that the passage specifically enjoins Muslims to attack those who have attacked them, or that it commands us to "inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you," you've honed in on a belligerent-sounding sentence and by God you're sticking with it! Context be damned!

Seems there is more to it than just that.
And the order is repeated else ware ***
2:190. And fight in the Way of Allâh[] those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allâh likes not the transgressors. [This Verse is the first one that was revealed in connection with Jihâd, but it was supplemented by another (V.9:36)].

2:191. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah[] is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (the sanctuary at Makkah),[] unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.

2:192. But if they cease, then Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

193. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)

2:194. The sacred month is for the sacred month, and for the prohibited things, there is the Law of Equality (Qisâs). Then whoever transgresses the prohibition against you, you transgress likewise against him. And fear Allâh, and know that Allâh is with Al-Muttaqûn (the pious - see V.2:2) .

195. And spend in the Cause of Allâh (i.e. Jihâd of all kinds, etc.) and do not throw yourselves into destruction (by not spending your wealth in the Cause of Allâh), and do good. Truly, Allâh loves Al-Muhsinûn[] (the good-doers).


***
8:39

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do
2:193.
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc193

http://www.ummah.com/what-is-islam/quran/noble/

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

 

[Kalam]

Seems there is more to it than just that.

No, not really.

And the order is repeated else ware ***

And the limits are reiterated:

Surely the vilest of beasts in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe. Those with whom thou makest an agreement, then they break their agreement every time, and they keep not their duty. So if thou overtake them in war, scatter by them those who are behind them, that they may be mindful. And if thou fear treachery on the part of a people, throw back to them (their treaty) on terms of equality. Surely Allah loves not the treacherous. And let not those who disbelieve think that they can outstrip. Surely they cannot escape. And make ready for them whatever force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you know not -- Allah knows them. And whatever you spend in Allah’s way, it will be paid back to you fully and you will not be wronged. And if they incline to peace, include thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Surely he is the Hearer, the Knower. And if they intend to deceive thee, then surely Allah is sufficient for thee. He it is Who strengthened thee with His help and with the believers, and He has united their hearts. If thou hadst spent all that is in the earth, thou couldst not have united their hearts, but Allah united them. Surely he is Mighty, Wise. - 8:55-63​

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Thanks

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.

 

[PixieStix]

Seems there is more to it than just that.

No, not really.

And the order is repeated else ware ***

And the limits are reiterated:

Surely the vilest of beasts in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe. Those with whom thou makest an agreement, then they break their agreement every time, and they keep not their duty. So if thou overtake them in war, scatter by them those who are behind them, that they may be mindful. And if thou fear treachery on the part of a people, throw back to them (their treaty) on terms of equality. Surely Allah loves not the treacherous. And let not those who disbelieve think that they can outstrip. Surely they cannot escape. And make ready for them whatever force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you know not -- Allah knows them. And whatever you spend in Allah’s way, it will be paid back to you fully and you will not be wronged. And if they incline to peace, include thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Surely he is the Hearer, the Knower. And if they intend to deceive thee, then surely Allah is sufficient for thee. He it is Who strengthened thee with His help and with the believers, and He has united their hearts. If thou hadst spent all that is in the earth, thou couldst not have united their hearts, but Allah united them. Surely he is Mighty, Wise. - 8:55-63
​

In other words, making an oath to uphold and defend the constitution and even making an oath to any kafr means nothing because the oath to Allah supercedes all other oaths

 

[PixieStix]

Thanks

Yep

 

[Kalam]

Seems there is more to it than just that.

No, not really.

And the order is repeated else ware ***

And the limits are reiterated:

Surely the vilest of beasts in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe. Those with whom thou makest an agreement, then they break their agreement every time, and they keep not their duty. So if thou overtake them in war, scatter by them those who are behind them, that they may be mindful. And if thou fear treachery on the part of a people, throw back to them (their treaty) on terms of equality. Surely Allah loves not the treacherous. And let not those who disbelieve think that they can outstrip. Surely they cannot escape. And make ready for them whatever force you can and horses tied at the frontier, to frighten thereby the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them, whom you know not -- Allah knows them. And whatever you spend in Allah’s way, it will be paid back to you fully and you will not be wronged. And if they incline to peace, include thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Surely he is the Hearer, the Knower. And if they intend to deceive thee, then surely Allah is sufficient for thee. He it is Who strengthened thee with His help and with the believers, and He has united their hearts. If thou hadst spent all that is in the earth, thou couldst not have united their hearts, but Allah united them. Surely he is Mighty, Wise. - 8:55-63
​

In other words, making an oath to uphold and defend the constitution and even making an oath to any kafr means nothing because the oath to Allah supercedes all other oaths

Reading comprehension FTW.

 

[Kalam]

Concessions accepted.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Concessions accepted.

You see things in the Quran and on internet chat forums that are not there.

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.

 

[Kalam]

You see things in the Quran and on internet chat forums that are not there.

I posted passages taken directly from the Qur'an.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

You see things in the Quran and on internet chat forums that are not there.

I posted passages taken directly from the Qur'an.

You threw spaghetti at the wall to see if anything stuck. It didnt.

 

[Kalam]

You see things in the Quran and on internet chat forums that are not there.

I posted passages taken directly from the Qur'an.

You threw spaghetti at the wall to see if anything stuck. It didnt.

I'm sorry that you take issue with the Qur'anic passages I posted. Keeping in mind that you've been unable to do anything recently apart from cutting and pasting from a Takfiri author's website and posting platitudinous one-liners, I'm assuming that you're no longer interested in attempting to defend your position.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

I dont have a position .
Im asking for proof, you have be unable to provide any.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Many muslims like to say " Islam forbids the killing of innocent people"
Please provide Islamic scripture to prove unequivocally non muslims are innocent.

 

[Kalam]

I dont have a position .
Im asking for proof, you have be unable to provide any.

No proof will be sufficient for you because you've already convinced yourself that you're correct. It's sufficient for the majority of Muslims and most non-Muslims who are at least somewhat familiar with Islam. Your idiotic sycophants, of course, do not care about evidence at all. They'll simply toe your line.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

I dont have a position .
Im asking for proof, you have be unable to provide any.

No proof will be sufficient for you because you've already convinced yourself that you're correct. It's sufficient for the majority of Muslims and most non-Muslims who are at least somewhat familiar with Islam. Your idiotic sycophants, of course, do not care about evidence at all. They'll simply toe your line.

Proof requires something more than what you can provide.
Proof looks like legal reasoning and scripture that abrogates these Quranic orders

8:39

And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do
2:193.
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allâh (Alone).[] But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zâlimûn (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc193

http://www.ummah.com/what-is-islam/quran/noble/

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Tafsir.com Tafsir Ibn Kathir

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Proof looks like scripture that abrogates this

“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allaah), and the religion (worship) will all be for Allaah Alone [in the whole of the world]”

[al-Anfaal 8:39]

“Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikoon (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism] and perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”

[al-Tawbah 9:5]

This verse is known as Ayat al-Sayf (the verse of the sword).

These and similar verses abrogate the verses which say that there is no compulsion to become Muslim.

Islam Question and Answer - There is no compulsion to accept Islam

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Proof looks like scripture that abrogates this

“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allaah), and the religion (worship) will all be for Allaah Alone [in the whole of the world]”

[al-Anfaal 8:39]

“Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikoon (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism] and perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”

[al-Tawbah 9:5]

This verse is known as Ayat al-Sayf (the verse of the sword).

These and similar verses abrogate the verses which say that there is no compulsion to become Muslim.

Islam Question and Answer - There is no compulsion to accept Islam

 

[Kalam]

Proof requires something more than what you can provide.

Proof, to you, entails something more than anybody can provide. More than I can provide, more than Islam's most eminent scholars can prove...

You're ridiculous.

Proof looks like legal reasoning and scripture that abrogates these Quranic orders

No part of the Qur'an has been abrogated.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1635827-post135.html

8:39
2:193

Dealt with already. Time for a new argument.

 

[Kalam]

Abrogation is a false doctrine

You have tried and shown you cant prove that.

I have shown it to be true on a number of occasions; you cling to falsities because you realize that acknowledging the truth would deprive your hilariously pathetic Islamophobia of a rational basis. I'm sure that you're not even familiar with the development of the theory of internal naskh. As time has passed and knowledge has increased, a progressively fewer number of verses have been regarded as "abrogated." During the Medieval period, for example, varying numbers of passages were thought to be affected by internal abrogation - Imam Jalaluddin Al-Suyuti eventually demonstrated that no more than 21 verses could have been abrogated.

The possibly abrogated verses -- as recognized by Suyuti -- are as follows:

• 2:180 (by 2:181)
• 2:184 (by 2:185)
• 2:183 (by 2:187)
• 2:217 (by 9:36)
• 2:240 (by 2:234)
• 2:284 (by 2:286)
• 3:102 (by 64:16)
• 4:33 (by 8:75)
• 4:8
• 4:15
• 5:2
• 5:42 (by 5:49)
• 5:106 (by 65:2)
• 8:65 (by 8:66)
• 9:41 (by 24:61, 9:91, and 9:122)
• 24:3 (by 24:32)
• 24:58
• 33:52 (by 33:33)
• 58:12 (by 58:13)
• 60:11
• 73:2

Suyuti's discussion of Naskh can be found in full here (for some reason, it's hosted on an Ahmadi website):
http://www.ahmadiyya.org/images_blog/nasikhmansukh.pdf

You will notice that 2:256 (Let there be no compulsion in religion...) and similar passages that I cite were not included by Suyuti in his list of abrogated verses.

What's more, renowned Indian scholar Shah Wahiullah (d. 1762) demonstrated in Al Faudhul Kabir fi Usoolut Tafsir that all but five of Suyuti's verses were unaffected by abrogation. We have now reduced this number to zero, as it's plainly obvious that the passages that supposedly explain internal naskh actually describe a form of naskh that involves the Qur'an taking precedence over previous scriptures. Like Maulana Muhammad Ali, eminent Sunni leader Maulana Maududi confirmed that the references were to the Qur'anic abrogation of Halakha. Excerpted from his tafsir, Tafhim al-Qur'an (regarding 2:106) -

Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?

This is the answer to an objection which the Jews raised to create doubts in the minds of the Muslims. They argued this: "The Qur'an says that the former Scriptures had been sent down by Allah and that it had as well. If this is so, why does the Qur'an give commands that differ from those contained in the former Books? How can the same God give different commands at different times?" Besides, they said, "The Qur'an asserts that the Jews and the Christians have forgotten a part of the teachings sent down to them. How is it possible that the teachings of Allah could be obliterated from memory?" They did not raise these objections for the sake of arriving at the truth, but for the sake of creating mischief. Allah answers their objections thus: "I am the Sovereign and My powers are unlimited. I can repeal any order of Mine or allow it to be forgotten, but I substitute for it something that serves the same purpose better or at least equally well."​

___