It's almost June - countdown to the Supreme Court decision on ACA

[Amelia]

You know, good point.

I will bet that T and Amelia and every other person here who complains about how the ACA is taking away their liberties is not going through life without some kind of health care coverage.

"The Government is going to make me do something that I already have the good sense to do! Help, help, I'm being opressed. "

Insinuation and unfounded ad hominem don't add up to much of an argument. or any argument actually.

The right to say "no thanks" to services or products we don't want, the right to refuse to deal with companies we think are charging too much or otherwise screwing us, is the most fundamental right a consumer has. That right is by far the most important "consumer protection" afforded us by law. You can take away nearly every other regulation the state imposes on businesses and as long as we have the right to refuse to give them our money - then we can ultimately refuse to be victimized by them. It's honestly astonishing to me that so many people are ready to stand by compliantly, to even cheer, as the state and the corporations collude to take this right from us.

Democrats supporting ACA have been making hay of the fact that many Republicans currently opposed to ACA or the mandate have supported similar proposals in the past, or exactly the same policies at the state level. They try to imply that because unscrupulous leaders without convictions switched their positions for purely political reasons, that there are no principled reasons to oppose it. Of course, this is false.

If the tables were turned, if the Republicans had prevailed in '08 and they'd been the ones to push for a mandate (a very plausible scenario in my view) can't we hold out some hope that there would have been Democrats opposed to it on principle? Who would have called it out as the corporatist power grab that it is? And can we further hope that their less principled peers would have joined them in their opposition - even if it were for spurious political reasons?

Um yeah okay. So you don't buy electricity from say, a power company? jus sayin'
There is another problem with your post. You assume I approve of ObamaCare. I don't. As a matter of fact, my first post on this thread was that I hope it gets repealed. So um Oops!

Anyway, Conservatives and Libartarians have turned into the biggest bunch of whiny schoolgirls in the country. They're all just so "oppressed".
But they can never specficy exactly HOW they have been oppressed. For example, you have gon on about the mandate. Have you been forced to pay it? How has that afected you?

If people were forced to purchase electricity and had to buy it from a federal agency you could be bringing up an interesting issue.

But as it is, your question just makes it sound like you're one who doesn't understand the 10th amendment.

 

[IndependntLogic]

Insinuation and unfounded ad hominem don't add up to much of an argument. or any argument actually.

The right to say "no thanks" to services or products we don't want, the right to refuse to deal with companies we think are charging too much or otherwise screwing us, is the most fundamental right a consumer has. That right is by far the most important "consumer protection" afforded us by law. You can take away nearly every other regulation the state imposes on businesses and as long as we have the right to refuse to give them our money - then we can ultimately refuse to be victimized by them. It's honestly astonishing to me that so many people are ready to stand by compliantly, to even cheer, as the state and the corporations collude to take this right from us.

Democrats supporting ACA have been making hay of the fact that many Republicans currently opposed to ACA or the mandate have supported similar proposals in the past, or exactly the same policies at the state level. They try to imply that because unscrupulous leaders without convictions switched their positions for purely political reasons, that there are no principled reasons to oppose it. Of course, this is false.

If the tables were turned, if the Republicans had prevailed in '08 and they'd been the ones to push for a mandate (a very plausible scenario in my view) can't we hold out some hope that there would have been Democrats opposed to it on principle? Who would have called it out as the corporatist power grab that it is? And can we further hope that their less principled peers would have joined them in their opposition - even if it were for spurious political reasons?

Um yeah okay. So you don't buy electricity from say, a power company? jus sayin'
There is another problem with your post. You assume I approve of ObamaCare. I don't. As a matter of fact, my first post on this thread was that I hope it gets repealed. So um Oops!

Anyway, Conservatives and Libartarians have turned into the biggest bunch of whiny schoolgirls in the country. They're all just so "oppressed".
But they can never specficy exactly HOW they have been oppressed. For example, you have gon on about the mandate. Have you been forced to pay it? How has that afected you?

If people were forced to purchase electricity from a national agency you could be bringing up an interesting issue.

But as it is, your question just makes it sound like you're one who doesn't understand the 10th amendment.

Nice dodge. And I DO understand the 10th Amendment! I have long advocated the right to cruel and unusual free speech!

So how exactly are you oppressed?

 

[Salt Jones]

Insinuation and unfounded ad hominem don't add up to much of an argument. or any argument actually.

The right to say "no thanks" to services or products we don't want, the right to refuse to deal with companies we think are charging too much or otherwise screwing us, is the most fundamental right a consumer has. That right is by far the most important "consumer protection" afforded us by law. You can take away nearly every other regulation the state imposes on businesses and as long as we have the right to refuse to give them our money - then we can ultimately refuse to be victimized by them. It's honestly astonishing to me that so many people are ready to stand by compliantly, to even cheer, as the state and the corporations collude to take this right from us.

Democrats supporting ACA have been making hay of the fact that many Republicans currently opposed to ACA or the mandate have supported similar proposals in the past, or exactly the same policies at the state level. They try to imply that because unscrupulous leaders without convictions switched their positions for purely political reasons, that there are no principled reasons to oppose it. Of course, this is false.

If the tables were turned, if the Republicans had prevailed in '08 and they'd been the ones to push for a mandate (a very plausible scenario in my view) can't we hold out some hope that there would have been Democrats opposed to it on principle? Who would have called it out as the corporatist power grab that it is? And can we further hope that their less principled peers would have joined them in their opposition - even if it were for spurious political reasons?

Um yeah okay. So you don't buy electricity from say, a power company? jus sayin'
There is another problem with your post. You assume I approve of ObamaCare. I don't. As a matter of fact, my first post on this thread was that I hope it gets repealed. So um Oops!

Anyway, Conservatives and Libartarians have turned into the biggest bunch of whiny schoolgirls in the country. They're all just so "oppressed".
But they can never specficy exactly HOW they have been oppressed. For example, you have gon on about the mandate. Have you been forced to pay it? How has that afected you?

If people were forced to purchase electricity and had to buy it from a federal agency you could be bringing up an interesting issue.

But as it is, your question just makes it sound like you're one who doesn't understand the 10th amendment.

You don't understand that pre-existing conditions, 26 year limit and the donut hole will be the law no matter what the Supreme court does. The rest will follow at some point in the future. You have lost the war.

 

[Amelia]

Um yeah okay. So you don't buy electricity from say, a power company? jus sayin'
There is another problem with your post. You assume I approve of ObamaCare. I don't. As a matter of fact, my first post on this thread was that I hope it gets repealed. So um Oops!

Anyway, Conservatives and Libartarians have turned into the biggest bunch of whiny schoolgirls in the country. They're all just so "oppressed".
But they can never specficy exactly HOW they have been oppressed. For example, you have gon on about the mandate. Have you been forced to pay it? How has that afected you?

If people were forced to purchase electricity from a national agency you could be bringing up an interesting issue.

But as it is, your question just makes it sound like you're one who doesn't understand the 10th amendment.

Nice dodge. And I DO understand the 10th Amendment! I have long advocated the right to cruel and unusual free speech!

So how exactly are you oppressed?

Cruel and unusual free speech? Salvador Dali, is that you?

 

[dblack]

Um yeah okay. So you don't buy electricity from say, a power company? jus sayin'

Excellent case in point. Lots of people are exercising their right to go "off the grid". And as energy costs continue to rise, it's likely that more and more people will seek alternatives to "public" utilities for their electricity needs. Would you support measures similar to the health insurance mandate, forcing them to continue supporting the established power companies? Would you accuse people opposed to such a mandate of being hysterical?

There is another problem with your post. You assume I approve of ObamaCare.

Actually, I don't assume that. I was responding to claims that people concerned about liberties and rights lost via the mandate are simply being paranoid or irrational. There are many good reasons to oppose it, and it does represent a fundamental loss of freedom.

But they can never specficy exactly HOW they have been oppressed. For example, you have gon on about the mandate. Have you been forced to pay it? How has that afected you?

I see, so no one is allowed to complain until after they've taken it from behind? Does that really man any sense to you? Does this same argument work for you, for example, when it's used to defend the expansion of police state powers? Is everyone who complains about potential state abuse a "whiny schoolgirl" until they personally suffer loss due to a given policy? That's a patently ridiculous position to take. Surely you can defend your views without such nonsense.

 

[JoeB131]

Insinuation and unfounded ad hominem don't add up to much of an argument. or any argument actually.

How about answering the question. Are you refusing to buy health insurance, or are you doing the sensible thing and already buying it.

The right to say "no thanks" to services or products we don't want, the right to refuse to deal with companies we think are charging too much or otherwise screwing us, is the most fundamental right a consumer has. That right is by far the most important "consumer protection" afforded us by law. You can take away nearly every other regulation the state imposes on businesses and as long as we have the right to refuse to give them our money - then we can ultimately refuse to be victimized by them. It's honestly astonishing to me that so many people are ready to stand by compliantly, to even cheer, as the state and the corporations collude to take this right from us.

That all sounds really nice in principle, but let's get real. You don't pick out your insurance or pay for it in most cases, your employer does. And if they find something a little bit cheaper, you don't have much of a say in the matter. The problem with the insurance industry that ACA is fixing is that in a lot of cases, people are giving the insurance companies their money, and getting victimized anyway.

"Sorry, your breast cancer is a pre-existing condition. You had Acne once!"

The flip side is that the rest of us are being victimized by those who don't buy insurance. When they show up at an Emergency room and get treatment for ten times what it would cost to do it at clinic, who do you think pays for that? The rest of us do in the form of higher costs. Since we aern't going to let people die in the street, requiring everyone to carry insurance is the only logical alternative if you aren't going to simply go with a single payer system

Democrats supporting ACA have been making hay of the fact that many Republicans currently opposed to ACA or the mandate have supported similar proposals in the past, or exactly the same policies at the state level. They try to imply that because unscrupulous leaders without convictions switched their positions for purely political reasons, that there are no principled reasons to oppose it. Of course, this is false.

If the tables were turned, if the Republicans had prevailed in '08 and they'd been the ones to push for a mandate (a very plausible scenario in my view) can't we hold out some hope that there would have been Democrats opposed to it on principle? Who would have called it out as the corporatist power grab that it is? And can we further hope that their less principled peers would have joined them in their opposition - even if it were for spurious political reasons?

You are going into a lot of hypotheticals here. I suspect, though, that had Republicans pushed for mandates, the Democrats would have gone along with it, and then fought for additional reforms. In fact when Mittens did Mandates in Massachusetts (What, Mittens was Governor of Massachusetts? Funny he never talks about that.) he got both federal support through his old nemesis, Ted Kennedy and state support from the Democratic legislature.

 

[JakeStarkey]

No liberties have been taken away from anyone.

And anyone who believes privilege, responsibility, and reciprocity are not part of the American social compact of our government is mentally feeble.

 

[JoeB131]

Um yeah okay. So you don't buy electricity from say, a power company? jus sayin'
There is another problem with your post. You assume I approve of ObamaCare. I don't. As a matter of fact, my first post on this thread was that I hope it gets repealed. So um Oops!

Anyway, Conservatives and Libartarians have turned into the biggest bunch of whiny schoolgirls in the country. They're all just so "oppressed".
But they can never specficy exactly HOW they have been oppressed. For example, you have gon on about the mandate. Have you been forced to pay it? How has that afected you?

If people were forced to purchase electricity and had to buy it from a federal agency you could be bringing up an interesting issue.

But as it is, your question just makes it sound like you're one who doesn't understand the 10th amendment.

Except that electricity is a state mandated monopoly in most places. So while the state doesn't "force" you to buy it (How is that cardboard box under the bridge working out for you?) they've really limited your choices. In fact, you have far more choices under the ACA than you have about where your electricity comes from.

And here's part of the point. Here in IL, as least, you have to not pay your bill for about six months before Com Ed can cut you off. So there are people who really do abuse the system from the other end, just like the people who refuse to buy insurance and show up at an emergency room to get anti-biotics for that cold.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

and what will happen.

all those people who now got to keep their insurance will lose it.

they will thank the republicans for that one

They should never have had it in the first place.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Why, bigrebnc?

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

No liberties have been taken away from anyone.

And anyone who believes privilege, responsibility, and reciprocity are not part of the American social compact of our government is mentally feeble.

Cough: TSA

Cough: Patriot Act

Cough: Obamacare

Cough: States Rights

Cough: The public indoctrination system.

Cough: Compulsive taxation and unionization.

Cough: You're a hack.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Um yeah okay. So you don't buy electricity from say, a power company? jus sayin'
There is another problem with your post. You assume I approve of ObamaCare. I don't. As a matter of fact, my first post on this thread was that I hope it gets repealed. So um Oops!

Anyway, Conservatives and Libartarians have turned into the biggest bunch of whiny schoolgirls in the country. They're all just so "oppressed".
But they can never specficy exactly HOW they have been oppressed. For example, you have gon on about the mandate. Have you been forced to pay it? How has that afected you?

If people were forced to purchase electricity and had to buy it from a federal agency you could be bringing up an interesting issue.

But as it is, your question just makes it sound like you're one who doesn't understand the 10th amendment.

Except that electricity is a state mandated monopoly in most places. So while the state doesn't "force" you to buy it (How is that cardboard box under the bridge working out for you?) they've really limited your choices. In fact, you have far more choices under the ACA than you have about where your electricity comes from.

And here's part of the point. Here in IL, as least, you have to not pay your bill for about six months before Com Ed can cut you off. So there are people who really do abuse the system from the other end, just like the people who refuse to buy insurance and show up at an emergency room to get anti-biotics for that cold.

just like the people who refuse to buy insurance and show up at an emergency room to get anti-biotics for that cold.

How many people do this? Do you have some numbers?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Cough . . . you are an idiot. Congress passed, the President signed, and SCOTUS upheld. That's the end of it philosophically and legally.

Your opinion means nothing compared to that, TGG.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

No liberties have been taken away from anyone.

And anyone who believes privilege, responsibility, and reciprocity are not part of the American social compact of our government is mentally feeble.

Cough: TSA

Cough: Patriot Act

Cough: Obamacare

Cough: States Rights

Cough: The public indoctrination system.

Cough: Compulsive taxation and unionization.

Cough: You're a hack.

Cough: Indefinite detention

 

[JakeStarkey]

Congress passed and President signed. Pin your hopes on SCOTUS, bigrebnc.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Cough . . . you are an idiot. Congress passed, the President signed, and SCOTUS upheld. That's the end of it philosophically and legally.

Your opinion means nothing compared to that, TGG.

Was this what you said earlier?

No liberties have been taken away from anyone.

And anyone who believes privilege, responsibility, and reciprocity are not part of the American social compact of our government is mentally feeble.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Congress passed and President signed. Pin your hopes on SCOTUS, bigrebnc.

Yes we no that but you said no liberties was taken away.

No liberties have been taken away from anyone.

And anyone who believes privilege, responsibility, and reciprocity are not part of the American social compact of our government is mentally feeble.

Due process was taken away. The right to a fair trial was taken away.

 

[JakeStarkey]

No liberties have been taken away. You conflate them with rights but they are not.

President signed Congress's law. Know you await on SCOTUS.

You clearly do not know the concept of rights, freedom, and liberty under our Constitutional model,

 

[JoeB131]

and what will happen.

all those people who now got to keep their insurance will lose it.

they will thank the republicans for that one

They should never have had it in the first place.

so what you are saying is some people don't deserve to live or get treatment?

I'm trying to understand your reasoning here.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

No liberties have been taken away. You conflate them with rights but they are not.

President signed Congress's law. Know you await on SCOTUS.

You clearly do not know the concept of rights, freedom, and liberty under our Constitutional model,

You're confused, to take away someone rights is to take away their liberty. If you are Indefinitely detained do you have a right to leave?