Zone1 I've been an atheist for 60 years and have never once been tempted to believe in any god

[frigidweirdo]

The spiritual world is the greater reality over the physical world. We are sojourners here, and for a brief time only. What is the greater reality in your life: Your body,body or your mind and soul?

But then where's the evidence of the spiritual world? Perhaps this world doesn't exist, and the spiritual world is just something we make up and none of it is true.

 

[ding]

That's not the point. You believe things that are unbelievable. Why do you do that?

Because God can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason.

 

[ding]

Nope.

I can question, impugn and criticize any religion I want to since religions have nothing to do with gods and everything to do with how humans interpret those gods.

A person can believe in gods and not believe any human made religion is valid

But that's just another concept that you can't grasp

and once again we see you resorting to taking things out of context as the entire post said this


So what? Why is your faith above all question?

THAT is the flaw of the religious.

Anyone can question, criticize and condemn your religion you are not entitled to deem it otherwise.


You'll note the existence of gods was not the subject of that post

You are here to condemn respect for Christians. You are by definition a militant atheist.

 

[ding]

Ding please! Raising questions on the Catholic church's backsliding away from asking the flock to be literal believers in what we both agree is nonsense in a modern world, is not attacking!

Constructive criticism is due if done politely!

Surely the Catholic church must have prepared for the backlash by true believers.

Laughing leads to crying.

 

[ding]

Being well educated becomes a modern Christian's cross to bear!

No! It simply can't be as it is written!

More like a statement of fact. Atheism - especially the militant variety - is an intellectual dead end.

 

[Meriweather]

But then where's the evidence of the spiritual world? Perhaps this world doesn't exist, and the spiritual world is just something we make up and none of it is true.

What would you like to measure from the spiritual realm? (Remember, evidence is something that can be measured.)

 

[frigidweirdo]

What would you like to measure from the spiritual realm? (Remember, evidence is something that can be measured.)

Measured or recorded.

Try this, once upon a time God was some dude who lived in the sky. Then we got into space and found no God up there, so they changed where he lives....

The problem with the "spiritual world" is that it's very convenient for the human brain. It's as if humans have just made it up.

 

[Meriweather]

The problem with the "spiritual world" is that it's very convenient for the human brain. It's as if humans have just made it up.

It is more about what people have observed down through the ages. It is as if brainwaves (not being physical in and of themselves) can reach beyond the physical realm.

 

[Grumblenuts]

What would you like to measure from the spiritual realm? (Remember, evidence is something that can be measured.)

Heisenberg was uncertain. Einstein said it's all relative. A Mandelbrot set shows how growth can occur both spatially and anti-spatially simultaneously and at the same time too. Go ahead and measure it.

 

[justoffal]

When I was 10 years old, we had a dog named Silver. A sealyham - sort of a largish Westie. He had been struck by a car when I was much younger and that had left him blind in one eye. We adapted. He adapted. But whenever he entered an unfamiliar space (the furniture moved, for instance) he would collide with things. I felt bad for him. Like most children my age I believed what I was told was the truth by my parents and the church they took me to. So I prayed as fervently and selflessly as I could manage that God would restore his vision. But, as would happen in any bad movie, his poor vision led Silver to wandering out in front of another car where he suffered another concussion which left him completely blind. Now all dogs go to heaven because all dogs are innocent. Every non-human form of life is innocent of the many sins the Bible spells out. Initially, I was angry. How could God cause my innocent dog to suffer, regardless of his motive or intent? The standard "mysterious ways" line didn't help at all. What did help was the realization that the best explanation was not that god was mysterious or unknowable, but that he simply wasn't there. The existence of the god described by the Bible and by our preacher and the believers I would talk with was simply not possible; not only because it violated all the laws of nature but because absolutely no evidence I could find supported the idea. Every thing I could learn about the world and how it worked refuted the idea of a caring, personal god who had created miraculous humans and a miraculous Earth to be their home and was everpresent, watching over us and, on proper supplication, violating the laws that he himself had set in place - if he felt like it.

As the years went by I simply became more and more convinced that there is a great deal about the working of the universe we do not yet know, but the basics - the principal of uniformitarianism, holds, everywhere and everywhen. Nothing is supernatural. No will directs or inspires the stream of events taking place over the passage of time. Only physics.

What signs or signals should I have caught that might have lured me back to my childhood faith? And how might my life have been different had I done so? I have lots of friends and I'm pretty sure most of them think I'm a nice guy. I buy fully and heartily into the Golden Rule. I believe it to be the sole basis of human civilization. How do you think my complete lack of divine faith hurt me? Will your god throw into a lake of fire because I led a good life but failed to do him obeisance? That is, of course, precisely what scriptures tells us. Why would ANY of you believe, much less WORSHIP such a god? He seems a monster. Would anyone care to correct me?

You are Indeed a man of great Faith. Your Faith is in science....Unreligious perhaps but Faith nonetheless. All in all it was a decision made by you should not be exposed to any criticism since it was indeed your own decision. Considering the unspeakably vast reaches of the cosmos that surrounds us we may simply have to settle for the fact that it will always be beyond our ability either to understand it or fully explore it. This too is a form of faith.
Whether or not we will ever have an experience to end the GREAT SILENCE... Faith will still be necessary in whatever form we choose to adhere to it.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Your description of a "magical" God is an invention.

Which is ridiculous. I didn't invent any of the magical gods. And the description is spot on. Don't play dumb.

The religioners don't like it called magic, because they don't want to see theirr favorite fetish put on the same shelf as Merlin and Zeus and other magical, fictional characters. Nothing more.

But then they will abuse the minds of children by telling them a man came back to life and another man put every animal on a boat and another man split a sea and...


... and then complain when someone calls it magic.

 

[frigidweirdo]

It is more about what people have observed down through the ages. It is as if brainwaves (not being physical in and of themselves) can reach beyond the physical realm.

Or how about we look at it the other way.

People lie.

People will say things for reasons that make sense to them.

People want attention, people want unconditional love, people want something, and conveniently religion is giving them that thing.

Some people might want to tell people they see things to make them happy, gain power, gain attention or whatever. Everything can be explained psychologically.

 

[Deplorable Yankee]

When I was 10 years old, we had a dog named Silver. A sealyham - sort of a largish Westie. He had been struck by a car when I was much younger and that had left him blind in one eye. We adapted. He adapted. But whenever he entered an unfamiliar space (the furniture moved, for instance) he would collide with things. I felt bad for him. Like most children my age I believed what I was told was the truth by my parents and the church they took me to. So I prayed as fervently and selflessly as I could manage that God would restore his vision. But, as would happen in any bad movie, his poor vision led Silver to wandering out in front of another car where he suffered another concussion which left him completely blind. Now all dogs go to heaven because all dogs are innocent. Every non-human form of life is innocent of the many sins the Bible spells out. Initially, I was angry. How could God cause my innocent dog to suffer, regardless of his motive or intent? The standard "mysterious ways" line didn't help at all. What did help was the realization that the best explanation was not that god was mysterious or unknowable, but that he simply wasn't there. The existence of the god described by the Bible and by our preacher and the believers I would talk with was simply not possible; not only because it violated all the laws of nature but because absolutely no evidence I could find supported the idea. Every thing I could learn about the world and how it worked refuted the idea of a caring, personal god who had created miraculous humans and a miraculous Earth to be their home and was everpresent, watching over us and, on proper supplication, violating the laws that he himself had set in place - if he felt like it.

As the years went by I simply became more and more convinced that there is a great deal about the working of the universe we do not yet know, but the basics - the principal of uniformitarianism, holds, everywhere and everywhen. Nothing is supernatural. No will directs or inspires the stream of events taking place over the passage of time. Only physics.

What signs or signals should I have caught that might have lured me back to my childhood faith? And how might my life have been different had I done so? I have lots of friends and I'm pretty sure most of them think I'm a nice guy. I buy fully and heartily into the Golden Rule. I believe it to be the sole basis of human civilization. How do you think my complete lack of divine faith hurt me? Will your god throw into a lake of fire because I led a good life but failed to do him obeisance? That is, of course, precisely what scriptures tells us. Why would ANY of you believe, much less WORSHIP such a god? He seems a monster. Would anyone care to correct me?

And yet you're still a religious fanatic.....

Eat the bugs ....your priests command you

 

[Insaneworld]

That is just reasoned humanism and has nothing to do with gods or religion.

Religion has usurped morality and claimed it as the law of gods when in fact morality always belonged to humans

Usurped? How so?

Morality doesn't necessarily derive from religion, but religion usurped nothing. Yes, religious people can often act immorally, but this is just as true without religion, and was just as true before religion too. Religion has impeded many things, but it also worked to spread humanist values and morality.

As an example, during the colonization of the Americas, Catholic priests tempered (a bit) the brutality of the Spanish, they built hospitals and schools. Yes, in an effort to spread their beliefs, but in doing so the humanist values come too. There are moral benefits to their actions and to religion, like the Golden Rule that was discussed being more widespread.

 

[Meriweather]

Which is ridiculous. I didn't invent any of the magical gods. And the description is spot on. Don't play dumb.

I am not the one playing dumb. I am playing from the field of knowledge and experience. This means you are the one playing dumb--or ignorant. Take your pick.

The religioners don't like it called magic, because they don't want to see theirr favorite fetish put on the same shelf as Merlin and Zeus and other magical, fictional characters. Nothing more.

There is a difference between religion and magic. It seems you don't know either one very well. You may as well be comparing a mountain to an ear of corn.

But then they will abuse the minds of children by telling them a man came back to life and another man out every animal on a boat and another man split a sea and...

Could it be that you never moved beyond childhood education and into adult education?

My grandfather, uncle, husband, brother-in-law, etc. were all atheists. None of them made fools of themselves telling people of faith who/what God "really" was, and what scripture stories "really" meant. They saw it more on the order of abstract art, recognizing they didn't see anything in either, but also recognized others did. The other point they recognized is that neither art, God, nor scripture interested them, but did interest many others. They accept who they are and who those around them are.

It's not that you don't accept me...it's you don't accept yourself, which is what makes you different from the atheists I know in my own life.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Usurped? How so?

Morality doesn't necessarily derive from religion, but religion usurped nothing. Yes, religious people can often act immorally, but this is just as true without religion, and was just as true before religion too. Religion has impeded many things, but it also worked to spread humanist values and morality.

As an example, during the colonization of the Americas, catholic priests tempered (a bit) the brutality of the Spanish, they built hospitals and schools. Yes, in an effort to spread their beliefs, but in doing so the humanist values come too, like the Golden Rule that was discussed.

Any of hose humanistic ideas can be found without religion. In fact, religion held us back as a species from discovering them and discovering more.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I am playing from the field of knowledge and experience.

This is you speciously trying to give your fetish opinion authority it does not have or deserve.

There is a difference between religion and magic

There is no difference between miracles and magic. None. For example.

You just don't like it out I. The same shelf as other, fictional magic.

Because you think your favorite magic is special.

Nothing more.

 

[Insaneworld]

Any of hose humanistic ideas can be found without religion. In fact, religion held us back as a species from discovering them and discovering more.

Religion did not hold morality back, on the contrary it helped spread those values. It is a homogenizing force. This comes with negatives and positives, you are well aware of the negatives I'm sure, but spreading humanist values is a positive.

Without those homogenizing forces in our history we resort to baser instinct, and morality (at least in a widespread sense, like we think of today, human rights and so on) goes straight out the window.

 

[Meriweather]

Or how about we look at it the other way.

People lie.

People will say things for reasons that make sense to them.

People want attention, people want unconditional love, people want something, and conveniently religion is giving them that thing.

Some people might want to tell people they see things to make them happy, gain power, gain attention or whatever. Everything can be explained psychologically.

Absolutely. This is what makes it so hard for those with true experiences to make much of an impact. In so many ways the liars are so charismatic while many others, like Moses, have speech impediments, aren't much to look at, and don't want a thing, but for others to know the love of God.

 

[Meriweather]

This is you speciously trying to give your fetish opinion authority it does not have or deserve.

Shrug. Take my word or don't. I am forcing nothing on you, merely offering another real perspective for you to consider.