Zone1 I've been an atheist for 60 years and have never once been tempted to believe in any god

[Crick]

Why are you posting here?

Where else would I post such a question?

What is your goal?

Discussion. Learning. Teaching.

I believe it is to evangelize for your religion.

I don't have a religion and I don't push my atheism anywhere in real life. You will note very, very few posts from me on religious topics here. I used to participate in boards discussing evolution vs creationism but that board shut down several years back.

Are you hoping to be convinced that you will have something beyond this miserable life?

I am curious as to what people might have to say about these topics. I frequently seek to challenge my own beliefs. I think that's a good thing for everyone to do now and then. I have been shown to be wrong before and I have admitted my mistakes on USMB and elsewhere on multiple occasions.

Why do you want to insist that atheism is a religion?

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Science, let alone modern science, was not “born in the Catholic Church.” Your [see ding’s comment #779] claim that this is a fact is preposterous, and all the other “facts” you declare can be disputed as well.

The strongest argument that can be made for the Church as an institution protecting and preserving knowledge can probably be made for its monastic centers and its role during the Middle Ages in preserving books and some important written Latin texts and translations during the “Dark Ages” in Europe after the fall of Rome and through many following centuries…

The Catholic Church did not develop the idea of the free market. It existed in ancient times, both as an idea and in practice via trade in many commodities, as did money, interest, etc. etc.

Evolving “Canon Law” was only one influence on evolving Western legal traditions. It was strongly weakened after the Tudors in the English legal tradition particularly. Roman Laws predated it and Common Law with roots in Saxon and other Germanic traditions also were important. After the French Revolution, the Napoleanic Code reworked and modernized all these traditions and elements, basically de-feudalizing and codifying civil law in the French Empire. For the most part today Canon Law like Jewish Talmudic disputations are no longer central to Western legal tradition.

Almost every lasting religion and philosophy had strong elements within it concerning the supposed sacredness of human life. In many ways early Christianity, and the Catholic Church, however, also was a kind of death cult worshiping an afterlife and looking upon this world as unimportant and primarily a place of suffering. This too was a feature of many other religions and philosophies. Later, of course there were Catholic “humanists” like Erasmus and many others as well.

I left out the whole important period wherein new economic, religious, moral, legal, and political evolution took place in Europe outside the Catholic Church. This of course encompasses the period of the Protestant Reformation and the whole late Middle Age development of Free Cities and “Free Imperial Cities” under the Holy Roman Empire. Long centuries before the Holy Roman Empire (“neither Holy nor Roman nor an Empire”) officially ended in 1806, before the Congress of Vienna met in 1814-1815 to reconstruct Europe after Napoleon’s defeat, many German and other European cities developed their own city Constitutions and secular laws, their own class structures and legal and guild traditions. Eventually Roman Canon Law and all Roman Catholic Church authority was rejected as even German Princes came to embrace (opportunistically) new religious concepts to raise funds and satisfy the demands of rising city and town economies and populations. It was largely as a reaction to all these often absurd and degenerate religious wars that real universal Enlightenment and Humanist thinking emerged and flourished. The printing press gave the Protestant movements crucial energy as the Bible and other literature was translated into the spoken languages of Europe and literacy spread far beyond the Church. Most of Europe’s modern scientific and industrial advances were to arise only after these religious wars ended and the Catholic Church’s previous “spiritual monopoly” was destroyed.

 

[Crick]

That makes no sense at all.

He hates the God that people believed in. In some ways just because people believe something, it exists. It doesn't exist as what they say it is. It exists as an idea.

I certainly have to admit gods exists as ideas. I don't hate the gods because they don't actually exist. It would be like hating unicorns or dragons. I am not particularly fond of the people who made them up as a route to gain power over others.

 

[Crick]

And anyone can hate a fictional character.

Only with a really broad definition for hate. You can have all manner of opinion about fictional characters but underneath them all is the awareness that they are not real. That factor is lacking wrt to god(s) for a lot of folks.

 

[Crick]

Possibly because they recognize that some get a lot from religion. Take a look from this perspective. Some Christians get a tremendous amount from praying the rosary. And some don't. The reason why some are interested in the Rosary and some are not is the same reason some are interested in religion and some are not. That reason?

What is in it for me?

No one is altogether altruistic. Plus, What is in it for me can be unselfish. For example, "It will help me to be a better person and therefore have a greater ability to help others."

An interest in religion may stem for someone searching for what is in it for him/her.

I suspect a great many people are more concerned about their personal benefit than they are about serving their deities. I was astounded at the number of people who thought God would be satisfied with someone worshipping him as in Pascal's Wager.

 

[Crick]

I believe he is interested in God, not necessarily religion, there is a big difference in my view.

I do have a great deal more interest in deities than in organized religion. But, I have to be honest. The largest factor in my starting this thread was simply to debate. I've been an active participant in the Evolution forum for some time but it has grown tiresome and I was looking for a change. I was surprised by the amount of response this thread.

 

[Crick]

As I stated in another thread recently, It seems to me that Judaism makes more sense in that how you conduct yourself in life is the determining factor for Heaven or Hell.

My daughter married a young man from a Jewish family. The wedding was a mix, but as the father of the bride I was eventually called up to give them some sort of speech. I told the story of the wealthy man demanding the Torah be explained to him while standing on one foot. The answer was that it's the Golden Rule with a lot of window dressing. I was unaware that the story was commonplace in the Jewish community and really thought everyone would be impressed. Fortunately, few of the protestants and atheists on my side had heard it and so were impressed with my impressive knowledge of Judaic literature. The groom's side seemed to appreciate that I'd made some effort and that I'd hopped on one foot in a humorous fashion.

I think Judaism holds the Golden Rule in much higher regard than does christianity. Or it might be more accurate to say that christianity holds it in lower regard.

 

[Crick]

Well ... I certainly deny wearing adult diapers ... is that what you mean? ...

But I'll bite, where does God lie to Man in the Bible? ... and where does Jesus say it's okay to bear false witness? ...

When he claims that the Bible is the Word of God?

 

[Crick]

You are changing questions now. Neither of those are what you originally asked. Not all lies bear false witness.

Which lies do not bear false witness?

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www.dictionary.com

 

[Crick]

Hmmmmm...as an atheist myself and a dog/animal lover I can say neither a God nor the owners of that dog had that dogs best interests at heart...whoever it was that was responsible [god or owner] for him/her/they should be held accountable for that animals suffering.

I fully agree that we (the owners) were responsible for that dog being twice struck by cars. We walked him with a leash, but given his limited mobility, we used to let him out in the front yard with us, unleashed, while we did yard work. It was on such an occasion that he suffered his second accident. I was too young to have any recollection of his first. Mea culpa, mea culpa.

 

[Crick]

As with most questions the answer is... that depends.

Depends on what? Circumstances? If so, can you describe such circumstances or give us a good example?

 

[Crick]

Here is a question:

Okay.

Why do you feel you deserve an answer to these questions?

I never said I did. And I certainly didn't ask god.

Go your way. God will let you, until it's too late.

I am going my own way. No god will have anything to do with the beginning, the middle or the end, early or late.

 

[Crick]

Your dog got hit by a car, which traumatized you, so there is no god . lol snowflake.

I was traumatized but my trauma eventually led me to realize the irreconcilable conflict between the claims of a caring god and the completely inconsiderate vagaries of the actual universe. What we see around us is far better explained by no gods than by any god anyone has ever imagined.

 

[Crick]

Actually, no. But it is something outsiders who know no better are fond of saying.

What do those who DO know better say?

 

[Crick]

No, you have to deny it, because you think it would make your motives appear selfish and therefore unpure.

If no carrot of a forever festival was dangled, there would be no Abrahamic religions today. It would be something else.

And this truth shows every time any religious person proselytizes and uses it as a magical threat.

And it is every single time.

I have to ask: what religions do not promise eternal existence? Even Buddhism promises that Enlightenment gives freedom from the cycle of life and death.

 

[Crick]

How would "believing in living forever" be a functional advantage? What exactly would they be getting from that in practical everyday terms?

A promise to avoid death.

 

[Crick]

Congratulations you evil butt forker.

For what do you congratulate me? Avoiding the temptation to believe in god(s)? Has that been a problem for you?

When on your deathbed don’t try to re-consider. No takebacks.

I have already been on my deathbed a few times and at no time did I reconsider.

No wonder you are a shill for phony deep state Global Warming BS.

I am not surprised you would see a connection between my atheism and my acceptance of mainstream science. The claims that science and religion can cooexist have always been extraordinarily strained.

Tl dnr.

Do not resucitate? Sorry, too late. Twice now.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I have to ask: what religions do not promise eternal existence? Even Buddhism promises that Enlightenment gives freedom from the cycle of life and death.

Taoism, in a practical sense.

 

[Crick]

1. I hope that you are wrong.

2. But I am afraid that you may be right.

3. I was and still am devastated by the tragic circumstances of my beloved brother's passing away in 2022.

4. I have been waiting for a definite sign from him, but so far I have not recognized any.

Did you expect one?

 

[Crick]

Taoism, in a practical sense.

I realize it became one, sort of, but I would not characterize Taoism as having begun as a religion. But a good point in any case. Grazzi.