Jesus died for your sins ??

[JoeBlow]

The more accurate way to say that is Jesus died because of our sins. We are the author of His death.

Not possible, I wasn't born yet.

 

[JoeBlow]

At the heart of this debate is whether or not the material world was created by spirit. If the material world were not created by spirit, then everything which has occurred since the beginning of space and time are products of the material world. Everything which is incorporeal proceeded from the corporeal. There is no middle ground. There is no other option. Either the material world was created by spirit or it wasn't. All other options will simplify to one of these two lowest common denominators which are mutually exclusive.

So we need to start from that position and examine the evidence we have at our disposal which is creation itself. Specifically, the laws of nature; physical, biological and moral. And how space and time has evolved. And how we perceive God.

If we perceive God to be some magical fairy tale then everything we see will skew to that result. There won't be one single thing that we will agree with or accept. Whereas if we were trying to objectively analyze the evidence for spirit creating the material world we would listen to the whole argument and not look for trivial things to nitpick.

But since this is my argument we will use my perception of God. Which is there no thing that can describe God because God is no thing. God is not matter and energy like us and God exists outside of our four dimension space time. In fact the premise is that God is no thing. That God is a spirit. A spirit is no thing. Being things we can't possibly relate to being no things. A two dimensional being would have an easier time trying to understand our third dimension than we - a four dimensional being - would in trying to understand a multi-dimensional being outside of our space time. The closest I can come to and later confirm with the physical laws is that God is consciousness. That Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.

Then there's the eternal question, who created the gods?

 

[Blues Man]

And yet that's exactly what you seem to be trying to do.

No I was questioning what I see as an illogical belief in heaven and the rewards of gods.

I have never once tried to prove there is no god because I can't prove a negative. You have yet to prove that the creator if there is one is the same god of the bible.

For all you know you're worshiping the wrong guy

 

[ding]

Not possible, I wasn't born yet.

That's a minor technicality that won't help to progress you one bit.

 

[Blues Man]

Fully human and fully God. His suffering was real.

So you say.

 

[Blues Man]

Can't help you there. Get smarter friends. It's not a binary solution. That would be illogical and God IS logic.

All my friends are smarter than you

And if you can't prove the god you worship exists then that is not logic

 

[ding]

Then there's the eternal question, who created the gods?

A better question would be why are you using polytheism as your straw man? Even I wouldn't believe that.

 

[ding]

No I was questioning what I see as an illogical belief in heaven and the rewards of gods.

I have never once tried to prove there is no god because I can't prove a negative. You have yet to prove that the creator if there is one is the same god of the bible.

For all you know you're worshiping the wrong guy

Which is based on your illogical understanding. Base it on a logical understanding and the problem goes away.

You have no perception of worship or of God which is why all of this sounds so strange to you. If you had a logical perception of what it means to worship and a logical perception of God, then you wouldn't keep making illogical flawed arguments.

 

[JoeBlow]

A better question would be why are you using polytheism as your straw man? Even I wouldn't believe that.

Ok, so "god", who created it?

 

[ding]

All my friends are smarter than you

And if you can't prove the god you worship exists then that is not logic

Maybe. Maybe not. Especially if they believe in only two outcomes. Do they have a lot of experience with binary distributions? Because that hasn't been my experience.

 

[ding]

Ok, so "god", who created it?

The only solution to the first cause conundrum is something which is eternal and unchanging. That rules out matter and energy, right?

 

[Blues Man]

All my friends are smarter than you

Which is based on your illogical understanding. Base it on a logical understanding and the problem goes away.

You have no perception of worship or of God which is why all of this sounds so strange to you. If you had a logical perception of what it means to worship and a logical perception of God, then you wouldn't keep making illogical flawed arguments.

Faith is not logic.

And if Jesus actually believed that everyone can be forgiven then everyone who asked forgiveness would be forgiven and could get the same rewards as everyone else.

You can't have it both ways.

 

[Blues Man]

The only solution to the first cause conundrum is something which is eternal and unchanging. That rules out matter and energy, right?

And you assume that you know everything that exists in the universe?

You don't.

 

[ding]

So you say.

No. Says the people who had to work through it 2000 years ago. First they had a problem with understanding Jesus was God. Then once they accepted that they had a problem with Jesus being human. It was actually a bigger problem. But eventually they worked through it.

 

[ding]

Faith is not logic.

And if Jesus actually believed that everyone can be forgiven then everyone who asked forgiveness would be forgiven and could get the same rewards as everyone else.

You can't have it both ways.

Faith is based upon logic.

Did Jesus say everyone could be forgiven? Cause I'm petty sure he didn't.

But for the sake of argument let's pretend he did (which he didn't)... did he say everyone gets the exact same reward and the exact same punishment? No. So what does being forgiven mean? You won't find that out until you get there. But logically you should expect a distribution of outcomes.

 

[ding]

And you assume that you know everything that exists in the universe?

You don't.

I know the stages of the evolution of energy and matter. I know that everything has unfolded according to the laws of nature. I know that the laws of nature were in place before space and time were created. I know that life and intelligence are built into the fabric of existence. I know that the universe did begin. I know that the universe was not created from pre-existing matter. I know that according to the laws of nature that were in place before the universe began that life and intelligence arose from that creation.

And I know that all of these things are only made manifest by mind.

 

[Clyde 154]

I don’t get it ??
So every child rapist , murderer , serial killer or anyone who committed any violent act that resulted in the injury or death of anyone is 100 percent cleared ??
Even 2,000 yrs after Jesus ?? You can kill 60 folks and just say you’re already cleared by Jesus
Wtf ???

Why a shopping list of sins? The wages for all sin is the same...........death. Mankind has been under the penalty of death for sinning since Adam and Eve committed the first sin. There is no sliding scale for sin........nor sliding scale for punishment. Every man sins......either through commission or omission. Through action or through inaction where action is called for..... We are all under the same penalty of death. The rain falls on the just and the unjust.

In order to be forgiven for any sin under the New Testament Covenant of Grace......one must turn away (repent) from their old sinful life and live by the conditions placed upon that covenant of Grace. This covenant is much like the Last Will and Testament of Jesus Christ..........thus, the NEW TESTAMENT. In order to receive this willed gift of salvation one must comply with the specific conditions placed upon this will. In a symbolic manner one basically dies and buries their old sinful life, which is represented in the act of water baptism.........to arise (symbolically like Jesus) from the grave, BORN again to a new life having washed away all previous sin by the cleansing agent known as the blood of Christ (the human life to have ever walked the earth in perfection free from sin from cradle to grave)........thus the Christ acts as your advocate (standing between God and your sin).

There are conditions as stated before, or if you will.........steps of action and faith that must be taken by anyone who would accept this gift of grace in the forgiveness of sin.

1. FAITH..........One must have faith (i.e., a belief that something is factual or true) in Jesus Christ, that Christ can accomplish what He has promised...that He is the Son of God, God incarnate. (Matt. 16:16, John 6:69). One builds upon this faith by hearing the word of God. "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God". -- Romans 10:17 One can never benefit from a will if one is never introduced to the record contained in that will.

One must accept the truth.........they are living a sinful life, "ALL HAVE SINNED".

2. REPENTANCE.......when you turn to Christ you must turn away from sin.

3. CONFESSION..........you must confess in faith that Jesus is the Christ of prophecy and He is the Son of the Living God, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord........You "will" be saved. (not are saved but WILL BE....meaning more future action of some nature must take place) -- Romans 10:9, Matthew 16:16, 1 Tim. 6:12. Again the scriptures state "UNTO SALVATION"....meaning going toward salvation.

4. BAPTISM.........where your personal death, burial, and resurrection symbolically takes place........where you are pronounced dead to your old sinful life to be born again into a new life......completely innocent just like the birth of a child. To live this day forward under the conditions placed upon the New Testament of Grace

Baptism marks the beginning of new life in following Christ in thought, word and deed. This new life prepares you to both live and die with HOPE. Hope? A hope that resides at the end of this race we call life..........eternal salvation of your soul. A Christian is promised nothing extra in this life.........the same rain falls on the just and the unjust, the sinner and the saint, we all face the same obstacles along this path of life........the same hardships, the same happiness, the same accidents, illness.....etc., God has no respect of person. Every person has the opportunity to accept the conditions required by our Lord Christ Jesus. He did not come to earth to save your physical body.........but your spiritual body....your eternal soul.

The kingdom of God rests within each person.......its not a physical kingdom. Christianity is about spirituality.......coping with the circumstances of being in this reality called LIFE.

 

[Meriweather]

Look in the dictionary
I don't make up my own definitions

Doesn't answer my question.

 

[JoeBlow]

The only solution to the first cause conundrum is something which is eternal and unchanging. That rules out matter and energy, right?

You have way too many suppositions. Whittle it down to some facts.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Not possible, I wasn't born yet.

When Jesus died he said it was finished, meaning the sins of the past , present and forever was forgiven