Jesus Never Existed

[Picaro]

Amazingly, we have not one Jewish, Greek, or Roman writer, even those who lived in the Middle East, much less anywhere else on the earth, who ever mention him during his supposed life time. This appears quite extraordinary, and you will find few Christian apologists who dare mention this embarrassing fact.
.

except it isn't true.....Mark and Luke were Greeks......Matthew and John were Jewish.....Paul was a Roman......

We know virtually nothing about the persons who wrote the gospels we call Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

-Elaine Pagels, Professor of Religion at Princeton University, (The Gnostic Gospels)

None of which constitutes evidence of whether Jesus existed or not. Pagels and companies' works on the Gnostic Gospels are garbage as far as theological research goes, in any case, and have been thoroughly refuted as scholarship by Darrell Bock's examination of her theories and the scholars she relies on for them. Pagels is fashionable with conspiracy theorists and cranks.

An excellent read for laymen on the Gnostics and why they aren't relevant, along with a discussion of the 'Q documents' and their relevance to theological scholarship which might be of interest re the origins of the actual Gospels:

The Missing Gospels Unearthing the Truth Behind Alternative Christianities Darrell L. Bock Ph.D. 9780785289067 Amazon.com Books

A brief review here; more can be found by the usual methods:

Review The Missing Gospels Unearthing the Truth behind Alternative Christianities by Darrell L. Bock

Was orthodoxy just one among many competing “Christianities” in the earliest church that just happened to win out against the others? Did it then suppress the teachings and writings of the other groups? Or has there been a core of orthodoxy from the start and then over time a need arose to meet challenges by emerging groups that departed from this core belief structure? The latter has been assumed until recently. However, with recent discoveries and renewed interest in second-century Christianity, the notion that orthodoxy was one form of Christianity among relative equals (or even superiors) has been circulating. “New” discoveries have been in the news that some claim demand a reevaluation and revision of the traditional view. Those involved in making and defending such claims are often labeled the “new school.” With newspaper announcements, magazine articles, television documentaries, and best-selling books contributing to this idea, the average Christian with no substantive response to these claims can feel uncertain or even lost.

Bock has provided a tool that can help clear the air on this issue. Key to this discussion are the ancient sources themselves that are often inaccessible to the average Christian and/or are presented with confusing labels such as “missing gospels,” implying that such works are similar to the four canonical Gospels. Bock introduces readers to these sources, explains them and their significance, and places them in their historical context to help the reader get an accurate picture of the material. Readers are exposed to the sources themselves, and Bock presents substantive arguments that will prepare the reader to see through the hype generated by media outlets with their emphasis on the extraordinary.

...

Chapter 4 includes an interesting discussion of the Gospel of Thomas, and chapter 5 discusses the work of Walter Bauer in detail. In 1934 Bauer suggested that what is now considered orthodoxy was actually a minor group among many and ultimately “won out.” As a result this “orthodoxy” suppressed other forms of Christianity. Bauer is the starting point for the “new school,” which essentially uses his theory in various forms. Bock’s discussion of these issues is excellent. He focuses on the ancient sources and demonstrates serious problems with “new school” views on Thomas and the main theses of Bauer. Essentially Bock demonstrates that serious work in the sources themselves is the best way to approach these issues. Despite an essentially negative evaluation, Bock acknowledges that Bauer and the “new school” have made some positive contributions.

Walter Bauer is Pagel's main influence.

 

[sealybobo]

Consider that not a single ...... follower who lived before or during the alleged time of Jesus ever mentions him!

I can think of at least four, can't you?........

Who?

Matthew.....Mark.....Luke......John......all of them lived during the "alleged time of Jesus"......all of them were his followers......all of them mention him.......wasn't that the criteria you specified?......

Some people actually believe that just because so much voice and ink has spread the word of a character named Jesus throughout history, that this must mean that he actually lived. This argument simply does not hold. The number of people who believe or write about something or the professional degrees they hold say nothing at all about fact. Facts derive out of evidence, not from hearsay, not from hubris scholars, and certainly not from faithful believers. Regardless of the position or admiration held by a scholar, believer, or priest, if he or she cannot support a hypothesis with good evidence, then it can only remain a hypothesis.

and some people actually believe you can say that not a single follower who lived before or during the alleged time of Jesus ever mentions him.....and then when someone points out that they are wrong that they can ignore it as if they never posted it.......

It all looks very suspect to me. Lots of writers of history during that time from around the area where all this Jesus stuff happened. Many many famous writers and societies and hardly a mention of this Jesus character.

For a long time I've been saying that this all started from 11 guys. 11 Because Judah killed himself. Theists argued and now I'm going to accept their premise that LOTS of people saw it all happened. Lots of people followed and saw Jesus do what he do. Where are their writings of this god? None of it survived? Just a shroud? A 2000 year old rag with blood on it? That's it? Plus the bibles that were written and edited for centuries after.

I just saw a show on PBS last night of tracing your roots. This one half black and white woman could trace her roots back to when her black Jaimacan great great grandparents fled Europe because you had 3 choices. Convert to Christian, Leave or Die. They left. I'm sure no christians minded back then because they were safe and they didn't like Jews. So the next time a Christian brags about how Christianity spread, I've got a story to tell them. It was force fed to us for thousands of years. It's all made up and we should all be way smarter than that.

 

[sealybobo]

Amazingly, we have not one Jewish, Greek, or Roman writer, even those who lived in the Middle East, much less anywhere else on the earth, who ever mention him during his supposed life time. This appears quite extraordinary, and you will find few Christian apologists who dare mention this embarrassing fact.
.

except it isn't true.....Mark and Luke were Greeks......Matthew and John were Jewish.....Paul was a Roman......

Virtually all of the mythical accounts of a savior Jesus have parallels to past pagan mythologies which existed long before Christianity

we've had several people make that claim, only to be embarrassed by their ignorance of pagan mythologies.....are you going to be the next?....

Last night I was watching a kids show on religious tv. They had a mock argument with an atheist and it was sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
not realistic. Why didn't they give the real arguments us atheists make on USMB? Proof your religion(s) are a lie. Or when Kirk Cameron debunks evolution. He doesn't have one of us on to rebut. Fuck all yall quacks.

 

[sealybobo]

Consider that not a single ...... follower who lived before or during the alleged time of Jesus ever mentions him!

I can think of at least four, can't you?........

Who?

Matthew.....Mark.....Luke......John......all of them lived during the "alleged time of Jesus"......all of them were his followers......all of them mention him.......wasn't that the criteria you specified?......

Some people actually believe that just because so much voice and ink has spread the word of a character named Jesus throughout history, that this must mean that he actually lived. This argument simply does not hold. The number of people who believe or write about something or the professional degrees they hold say nothing at all about fact. Facts derive out of evidence, not from hearsay, not from hubris scholars, and certainly not from faithful believers. Regardless of the position or admiration held by a scholar, believer, or priest, if he or she cannot support a hypothesis with good evidence, then it can only remain a hypothesis.

and some people actually believe you can say that not a single follower who lived before or during the alleged time of Jesus ever mentions him.....and then when someone points out that they are wrong that they can ignore it as if they never posted it.......

Probably every author of the bible you read wrote on hearsay.

One of my new favorite sources.

Did Jesus exist

 

[PostmodernProph]

I can think of at least four, can't you?........

Who?

Matthew.....Mark.....Luke......John......all of them lived during the "alleged time of Jesus"......all of them were his followers......all of them mention him.......wasn't that the criteria you specified?......

Some people actually believe that just because so much voice and ink has spread the word of a character named Jesus throughout history, that this must mean that he actually lived. This argument simply does not hold. The number of people who believe or write about something or the professional degrees they hold say nothing at all about fact. Facts derive out of evidence, not from hearsay, not from hubris scholars, and certainly not from faithful believers. Regardless of the position or admiration held by a scholar, believer, or priest, if he or she cannot support a hypothesis with good evidence, then it can only remain a hypothesis.

and some people actually believe you can say that not a single follower who lived before or during the alleged time of Jesus ever mentions him.....and then when someone points out that they are wrong that they can ignore it as if they never posted it.......

It all looks very suspect to me. Lots of writers of history during that time from around the area where all this Jesus stuff happened. Many many famous writers and societies and hardly a mention of this Jesus character.

For a long time I've been saying that this all started from 11 guys. /QUOTE]

/shrugs....I can't help it if you insist on being wrong....

 

[sealybobo]

Who?

Matthew.....Mark.....Luke......John......all of them lived during the "alleged time of Jesus"......all of them were his followers......all of them mention him.......wasn't that the criteria you specified?......

Some people actually believe that just because so much voice and ink has spread the word of a character named Jesus throughout history, that this must mean that he actually lived. This argument simply does not hold. The number of people who believe or write about something or the professional degrees they hold say nothing at all about fact. Facts derive out of evidence, not from hearsay, not from hubris scholars, and certainly not from faithful believers. Regardless of the position or admiration held by a scholar, believer, or priest, if he or she cannot support a hypothesis with good evidence, then it can only remain a hypothesis.

and some people actually believe you can say that not a single follower who lived before or during the alleged time of Jesus ever mentions him.....and then when someone points out that they are wrong that they can ignore it as if they never posted it.......

It all looks very suspect to me. Lots of writers of history during that time from around the area where all this Jesus stuff happened. Many many famous writers and societies and hardly a mention of this Jesus character.

For a long time I've been saying that this all started from 11 guys. /QUOTE]

/shrugs....I can't help it if you insist on being wrong....

You didn't say anything? I mean come on! If you've studied the history of your own religion and look over at the Muslim world and see how it was invented and used to control people. If you have a brain you can not possibly seriously believe anything any Christian church says let alone Jehova, Jew, Muslim or Mormon churches.

And I'm not saying the churches know its all a lie. I'm sure not all church leaders throughout history were all bad and all evil. I'm sure the original followers of Christianity had good intentions just like all cult members. They all see people are bad and the earth is going to shit. Look at every religion and they have lots of good elements to them. So what? A lie is a lie and in fact us atheists believe, no we KNOW that religion is holding us back. At least the religions we have now. Any human that believes any of the organized religions needs to evolve.

If you want to believe there is a god fine but to lie and say he visited your ancestors? Come on!

 

[sealybobo]

Christianity is just one of many religions that in our very brief human history will come and go. Like the Greek Gods.

 

[PostmodernProph]

Matthew.....Mark.....Luke......John......all of them lived during the "alleged time of Jesus"......all of them were his followers......all of them mention him.......wasn't that the criteria you specified?......

Some people actually believe that just because so much voice and ink has spread the word of a character named Jesus throughout history, that this must mean that he actually lived. This argument simply does not hold. The number of people who believe or write about something or the professional degrees they hold say nothing at all about fact. Facts derive out of evidence, not from hearsay, not from hubris scholars, and certainly not from faithful believers. Regardless of the position or admiration held by a scholar, believer, or priest, if he or she cannot support a hypothesis with good evidence, then it can only remain a hypothesis.

and some people actually believe you can say that not a single follower who lived before or during the alleged time of Jesus ever mentions him.....and then when someone points out that they are wrong that they can ignore it as if they never posted it.......

It all looks very suspect to me. Lots of writers of history during that time from around the area where all this Jesus stuff happened. Many many famous writers and societies and hardly a mention of this Jesus character.

For a long time I've been saying that this all started from 11 guys. /QUOTE]

/shrugs....I can't help it if you insist on being wrong....

If you have a brain you can not possibly seriously believe anything any Christian church says let alone Jehova, Jew, Muslim or Mormon churches.

/shrugs......and I believe if you had a brain you wouldn't call yourself an atheist.....(and certainly wouldn't say you were an "agnostic atheist" with a straight face).......

 

[Avatar4321]

Christianity is just one of many religions that in our very brief human history will come and go. Like the Greek Gods.

and yet I don't see you objecting to belief in the ancient Greek gods. Only Christ.

Christ has the power to change lives. Yours, mine, everyones. He can change our very natures. We just have to let Him.

if we aren't all born again on a global scale, this world is in for a lot of bloodshed and suffering at our own hands

 

[Derideo_Te]

Christianity is just one of many religions that in our very brief human history will come and go. Like the Greek Gods.

and yet I don't see you objecting to belief in the ancient Greek gods. Only Christ.

Christ has the power to change lives. Yours, mine, everyones. He can change our very natures. We just have to let Him.

if we aren't all born again on a global scale, this world is in for a lot of bloodshed and suffering at our own hands

if we aren't all born again on a global scale, this world is in for a lot of bloodshed and suffering at our own hands

That sentiment is echoed by the extremists of every religion.

They all claim to be the "one true religion" and there will be "bloodshed and suffering" unless everyone embraces their religion "on a global scale".

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Christianity is just one of many religions that in our very brief human history will come and go. Like the Greek Gods.

and yet I don't see you objecting to belief in the ancient Greek gods. Only Christ.

Christ has the power to change lives. Yours, mine, everyones. He can change our very natures. We just have to let Him.

if we aren't all born again on a global scale, this world is in for a lot of bloodshed and suffering at our own hands

The ego knows its no match for Christ consciousness

Sent from smartphone using my wits and Taptalk

 

[mudwhistle]

Michael Paulkovich finds no mention of Christ in 126 historical texts Daily Mail Online

Historical researcher Michael Paulkovich has claimed that Jesus of Nazareth was a ‘mythical character’ and never existed.

The controversial discovery was apparently made after he found no verifiable mention of Christ from 126 writers during the ‘time of Jesus’ from the first to third centuries.

He says he is a fictional character invented by followers of Christianity to create a figure to worship.

...

The 126 texts he studied were all written in the period during or soon after the supposed existence of Jesus, when Paulkovich says they would surely have heard of someone as famous as Jesus - but none mention him.

'When I consider those 126 writers, all of whom should have heard of Jesus but did not - and Paul and Marcion and Athenagoras and Matthew with a tetralogy of opposing Christs, the silence from Qumram and Nazareth and Bethlehem, conflicting Bible stories, and so many other mysteries and omissions - I must conclude that Christ is a mythical character,’ he writes.

‘"Jesus of Nazareth" was nothing more than urban (or desert) legend, likely an agglomeration of several evangelic and deluded rabbis who might have existed.’

Does this mean that his mum wasn't impregnated by a magical, invisible sky creature?

Remembering when the DaVinci Code hit. There was talk that it would change forever the way people believed in god but I've seen any evidence that happened. This will surely have the same non-effect because people want and desperately need to believe the myth.

Bet you think The Daily Show is really news too.

Nobody said Jesus never existed before on this forum, only that he wasn't the Messiah. That argument is over 2000 years old. You, in your utter hatred for Christians, have reached a new low.

 

[Abishai100]

Mental Yearning

In earlier days, families of deceased individuals would provide photographs of their lost loved ones to photographers who would professionally cut-and-paste them to create artificial photos of surviving members and deceased members in one crafted portrait.

While these photos were obviously fake and constructed, they would provide spiritual strength and emotional support for the customers.

This practice is no longer common, and we can perhaps evaluate such behavior as characteristic of sentimentalism typical of romanticism-ornamentalism historical ages. We can critique such sentimentalism or we can simply suggest that emotional flowery is not technically evil or childish since they create feelings of inspiration or optimism or cheerfulness.

We must be careful in differentiating between sentimentality and insanity, but if we do take care, then we can arrive at arguments about the psychologically beneficial aspects of 'romantic' behaviors.

It seems prudent then to argue that it's not important how accurately we can define or verify the life and work of the religious prophet Jesus Christ but rather investigate why his words and deeds seemed to inspire thoughts about peace and teamwork.

This could be the best way to approach the timelessly intriguing human question, "Is evil real?"





One Hour Photo - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[Avatar4321]

Christianity is just one of many religions that in our very brief human history will come and go. Like the Greek Gods.

and yet I don't see you objecting to belief in the ancient Greek gods. Only Christ.

Christ has the power to change lives. Yours, mine, everyones. He can change our very natures. We just have to let Him.

if we aren't all born again on a global scale, this world is in for a lot of bloodshed and suffering at our own hands

if we aren't all born again on a global scale, this world is in for a lot of bloodshed and suffering at our own hands

That sentiment is echoed by the extremists of every religion.

They all claim to be the "one true religion" and there will be "bloodshed and suffering" unless everyone embraces their religion "on a global scale".

Christ is the only one who can change our violent nature into peaceful discipleship.

 

[sealybobo]

Some people actually believe that just because so much voice and ink has spread the word of a character named Jesus throughout history, that this must mean that he actually lived. This argument simply does not hold. The number of people who believe or write about something or the professional degrees they hold say nothing at all about fact. Facts derive out of evidence, not from hearsay, not from hubris scholars, and certainly not from faithful believers. Regardless of the position or admiration held by a scholar, believer, or priest, if he or she cannot support a hypothesis with good evidence, then it can only remain a hypothesis.

and some people actually believe you can say that not a single follower who lived before or during the alleged time of Jesus ever mentions him.....and then when someone points out that they are wrong that they can ignore it as if they never posted it.......

It all looks very suspect to me. Lots of writers of history during that time from around the area where all this Jesus stuff happened. Many many famous writers and societies and hardly a mention of this Jesus character.

For a long time I've been saying that this all started from 11 guys. /QUOTE]

/shrugs....I can't help it if you insist on being wrong....

If you have a brain you can not possibly seriously believe anything any Christian church says let alone Jehova, Jew, Muslim or Mormon churches.

/shrugs......and I believe if you had a brain you wouldn't call yourself an atheist.....(and certainly wouldn't say you were an "agnostic atheist" with a straight face).......

If you study the history of all organized religions, you'd have to be a fool to believe any one of them. So then we have generic god. If a generic god created all this, he knows, thinks and cares as much for you as you do an ant in Africa. How much do you care for an ant in Africa?

And if there is a god that is watching, consider he would hope for and appreciate reasoning/skepticism.

 

[sealybobo]

Christianity is just one of many religions that in our very brief human history will come and go. Like the Greek Gods.

and yet I don't see you objecting to belief in the ancient Greek gods. Only Christ.

Christ has the power to change lives. Yours, mine, everyones. He can change our very natures. We just have to let Him.

if we aren't all born again on a global scale, this world is in for a lot of bloodshed and suffering at our own hands

if we aren't all born again on a global scale, this world is in for a lot of bloodshed and suffering at our own hands

That sentiment is echoed by the extremists of every religion.

They all claim to be the "one true religion" and there will be "bloodshed and suffering" unless everyone embraces their religion "on a global scale".

Christ is the only one who can change our violent nature into peaceful discipleship.

Yet just like Adam & Eve failed, and everyone except Noah was bad and god flooded 99.9999 down the toilet, just look at society since Jesus got popular. How's he doing so far with this changing our violent nature?

Time for a new god. One that actually works. One that everyone can buy into. And not 4 different books this time. Just one. Consolidate please!

 

[sealybobo]

Christianity is just one of many religions that in our very brief human history will come and go. Like the Greek Gods.

and yet I don't see you objecting to belief in the ancient Greek gods. Only Christ.

Christ has the power to change lives. Yours, mine, everyones. He can change our very natures. We just have to let Him.

if we aren't all born again on a global scale, this world is in for a lot of bloodshed and suffering at our own hands

if we aren't all born again on a global scale, this world is in for a lot of bloodshed and suffering at our own hands

That sentiment is echoed by the extremists of every religion.

They all claim to be the "one true religion" and there will be "bloodshed and suffering" unless everyone embraces their religion "on a global scale".

Christ is the only one who can change our violent nature into peaceful discipleship.

We as a society have to do better. Quit waiting for god to fix your problems. He ain't coming. So we need to make sure that there are enough jobs so that unemployment doesn't get too high. Then we need to make sure those jobs pay a living wage. When a society doesn't offer that it breaks down the family. Today 20 somethings can't afford to get married but they can still fuck.

If you go to prison you'll see the prisons are full of Christians & Muslims. Very few Atheists though.

 

[longknife]

Interesting. Did you know that Muslim literature refers to Him?

Jesus in Islam - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

So they only believe him to be a prophet. They still seem to think he existed.

 

[chikenwing]

Michael Paulkovich finds no mention of Christ in 126 historical texts Daily Mail Online

Historical researcher Michael Paulkovich has claimed that Jesus of Nazareth was a ‘mythical character’ and never existed.

The controversial discovery was apparently made after he found no verifiable mention of Christ from 126 writers during the ‘time of Jesus’ from the first to third centuries.

He says he is a fictional character invented by followers of Christianity to create a figure to worship.

...

The 126 texts he studied were all written in the period during or soon after the supposed existence of Jesus, when Paulkovich says they would surely have heard of someone as famous as Jesus - but none mention him.

'When I consider those 126 writers, all of whom should have heard of Jesus but did not - and Paul and Marcion and Athenagoras and Matthew with a tetralogy of opposing Christs, the silence from Qumram and Nazareth and Bethlehem, conflicting Bible stories, and so many other mysteries and omissions - I must conclude that Christ is a mythical character,’ he writes.

‘"Jesus of Nazareth" was nothing more than urban (or desert) legend, likely an agglomeration of several evangelic and deluded rabbis who might have existed.’

Does this mean that his mum wasn't impregnated by a magical, invisible sky creature?

Remembering when the DaVinci Code hit. There was talk that it would change forever the way people believed in god but I've seen any evidence that happened. This will surely have the same non-effect because people want and desperately need to believe the myth.

If you don't believe, why do you care that others do?

Its called insecurity and fear.

 

[House Mouse]

If you go to prison you'll see the prisons are full of Christians & Muslims. Very few Atheists though.[/QUOTE]

I have spent a lot of time in maximum security prisons with our church's prison ministry, and there are far, far more atheists and muslims than there are Christians.