Justifiable use of deadly force or not?

[HereWeGoAgain]

Moral of the story: Don’t be a dick and park in a handicap spot if you’re not really handicapped.

He didn't deserve to die for that.

True, but if he (or the wife if she was driving) hadn’t been a dick to start with, the whole thing wouldn’t have happened.

Agreed.
Wife parks in handicap zone....wrong.
Husband reacts with immediate violence....wrong.

 

[rightwinger]

The man who was standing was backing away
Shooting someone for pushing you to the ground is not......stand your ground

Even if he is on the ground?

He was assaulted.
The man who pushed him was guilty of a crime

But it is not grounds to kill someone. If he was on the ground and the guy came at him...he had justification to shoot

But shooting an unarmed man who is backing away from you is unjustified

 

[miketx]

Justified. If the guy on the ground was in fear of his safety.

What an upside-down PUTZ with that bullshit comment.

The white supremacist on the ground was employing threatening gestures toward the man's wife and probably shouting specific epitaphs from the look of his conduct in the video at her car window. Any real man would protect his wife and push an asshole like that away from his her in that type of situation.

The aggressor was the shooter even before he pulled the gun initiating an argument with the woman, regardless of her parking error. That the asswipe was shoved away from the woman by her husband and went down when he was pushed away from the other man's wife was a consequence of his own fucking aggressive actions.

The round fired was absolutely unnecessary given the soon to be dead man backed up, most probably to put himself between the shooter and his wife and to indicate a non-aggressive posture. The shooter was in no danger when he fired, your bullshit version notwithstanding. Why the fuck was a man with anger issues as described in the video was LICENSED to carry should be under investigation. The shooter will be found guilty of at least manslaughter, but if I was on the jury it would vote for second degree murder!

You base your warrantless attack on "probably"? lol

 

[sealybobo]

Then let us watch as it plays out in the Fla court system

Stand your ground.
Case dismissed.

In my case, that is what happened. There was still a trial.

Not necessarily.
The video itself is enough to not press charges based on Florida law.

And, a court will decide that.

Again, there won’t be any trial.

From a local news source:

“Drejka is a legal concealed weapons permit holder and will not be charged because of Florida's Stand Your Ground law, according to the Pinellas County Sheriff's Office.”

https://www.abcactionnews.com/news/region-pinellas/video-shows-deadly-shooting-over-parking-spot-at-clearwater-convenience-store

The message must be then no matter what someone says you don’t have the right to put your hands on someone else. Had he not pushed him this wouldn’t have happened. If a tougher guy came up and shoved the shover would he like it?

But the guy should have pulled the gun and not shot. That’s obvious

 

[harmonica]

Florida:
theater -popcorn shooting
'Stand your ground' defense rejected in Florida theater-shooting case
loud music---!!-- shooting
Shooting of Jordan Davis - Wikipedia
Trayvon Martin
etc etc
??????

Deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.

bold mine

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

 

[rightwinger]

Florida:
theater -popcorn shooting
'Stand your ground' defense rejected in Florida theater-shooting case
loud music---!!-- shooting
Shooting of Jordan Davis - Wikipedia
Trayvon Martin
etc etc
??????

Deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.

bold mine

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

Hardly looked imminent

The guy was disengaging once the gun was drawn

 

[TheDude]

Tough situation. Dumbshit 1 was looking for a problem. Dumbshit 2 thought he'd flex his muscle to show-off for his girlfriend. In my opinion dumbshit 1 faces somewhere in the neighborhood of manslaughter and 2nd degree murder. Seven-ten.

 

[kaz]

I would like to thank everyone in this thread for their civil discourse

Funny how when leftists aren't really participating in a discussion it works that way, huh?

No, it’s rightists who always spoil a civil discussion by making it partisan, this post being one of many examples.

You live in a bubble, Clayton

 

[kaz]

Yes, he could have. But you're talking about the victim, not the shooter, who initiated "the tension."

The odds of any one loop ending in a death was probably low. But he kept repeating the scenario.

If the odds of a shooting in one case is 20% and you repeat that scenario 10 times, the odds of a shooting becomes 90%

Thats the thing though.
The guy was known to be a parking lot nazi even the guy in the interview said it.
The guy that was shot had to know this since he was a daily customer.
And is there any liability for the store owner? He said the guy hung out there everyday. If he was a problem why didnt he call the cops and have him removed?

That's a big stretch that the guy who was shot had to know that. You have no basis to say that.

All I can say is that if I was armed and I initiated aggression like the shooter did, then no one I grew up with would say I did the right thing. And I think the'd be right.

That someone can stage a murder and those of you who are defending it are defending it is inexplicable to me. He created a situation where he introduced aggression into the situation and kept repeating it while armed. That was a guaranteed death, which is not what the second amendment is about

If the guy was a problem why didnt the owner have him removed from the premises a long time ago?
That doesnt ad up.

Thats beside the point. You dont attack someone over a verbal confrontation.

I agree, don't attack someone over a verbal confrontation; however, if some kook is in my wife's face screaming at her........I might make a mistake in the heat of the moment.

Not in this case.
The guy was standing a good five feet away from the car clearly indicating his wasnt going to get violent.
Had he been all up in her face I could see it.

Ditto for the shooting

 

[westwall]

Justifiable use of deadly force or not?

In the link below is an article with a video that shows a "stand your ground" incident in Clearwater Florida. A women illegally parked in a handicapped spot and got into an argument with a man who confronted her about it. The women's boyfriend, who was in the store at the time, comes out to see the argument and pushes the man to the ground. With the man on the ground he pulls out a gun and aims at the man who assaulted him. The man who committed the assault then backs up. Despite backing away, the man fires his gun anyways hitting the man in the chest. The injured man then runs into the store where he collapses on the ground and dies in front of his five your old son.


My opinion:

Both the women and her boyfriend committed illegal acts which led to the incident. But, I do not feel the man who was assaulted was justified in shooting his attacker. The Attacker had backed off after the gun was pulled. Parking in handicap spot and pushing someone to the ground or both illegal, but punishment for those actions would never warrant the death penalty. Had the attacker continued to assault or move towards the man pushed to the ground, then you might have a case where shooting the gun might be warranted. But that is not what happened. The attacker backed away after the gun was pulled. Then he was shot and killed, dying in front of his five year old son in the store. The man has two other children as well.

I've seen people get pushed to the ground like that in the school yard. Its wrong, you have a right to defend yourself. But in this case, taking another mans life was NOT justified. Call the police and the film of the incident would be enough evidence to punish the attacker in an appropriate manner.

The article and video of the incident are in the link below:

https://nypost.com/2018/07/20/stand...r-in-deadly-fight-over-parking-space-sheriff/

media link from youtube:

I agree, and this has nothing to do with the Stand your ground laws.

 

[kaz]

He continually staged the event but never brandished or used his weapon therefore he was looking to use his weapon isnt supported by his factual actions, He used only after being attacked.

Thats my take on it.
The could have walked up and asked what the problem was instead he escalated the tension.

Yes, he could have. But you're talking about the victim, not the shooter, who initiated "the tension."

The odds of any one loop ending in a death was probably low. But he kept repeating the scenario.

If the odds of a shooting in one case is 20% and you repeat that scenario 10 times, the odds of a shooting becomes 90%

Thats the thing though.
The guy was known to be a parking lot nazi even the guy in the interview said it.
The guy that was shot had to know this since he was a daily customer.
And is there any liability for the store owner? He said the guy hung out there everyday. If he was a problem why didnt he call the cops and have him removed?

That's a big stretch that the guy who was shot had to know that. You have no basis to say that.

All I can say is that if I was armed and I initiated aggression like the shooter did, then no one I grew up with would say I did the right thing. And I think the'd be right.

That someone can stage a murder and those of you who are defending it are defending it is inexplicable to me. He created a situation where he introduced aggression into the situation and kept repeating it while armed. That was a guaranteed death, which is not what the second amendment is about

If the guy was a problem why didnt the owner have him removed from the premises a long time ago?
That doesnt ad up.

Thats beside the point. You dont attack someone over a verbal confrontation.

As someone who's owned five businesses, it's not simple to get the police to remove someone from your property. And even if they do, they come right back. Furthermore, the person can get angry at you. It's a bad situation.

And the store owner said the guy kept doing that and he wasn't right. That wouldn't scare you to call the cops on someone aggressive that the cops will just rile off further?

 

[ThoughtCrimes]

Justified. If the guy on the ground was in fear of his safety.

What an upside-down PUTZ with that bullshit comment.

The white supremacist on the ground was employing threatening gestures toward the man's wife and probably shouting specific epitaphs from the look of his conduct in the video at her car window. Any real man would protect his wife and push an asshole like that away from his her in that type of situation.

The aggressor was the shooter even before he pulled the gun initiating an argument with the woman, regardless of her parking error. That the asswipe was shoved away from the woman by her husband and went down when he was pushed away from the other man's wife was a consequence of his own fucking aggressive actions.

The round fired was absolutely unnecessary given the soon to be dead man backed up, most probably to put himself between the shooter and his wife and to indicate a non-aggressive posture. The shooter was in no danger when he fired, your bullshit version notwithstanding. Why the fuck was a man with anger issues as described in the video was LICENSED to carry should be under investigation. The shooter will be found guilty of at least manslaughter, but if I was on the jury it would vote for second degree murder!

You base your warrantless attack on "probably"? lol

You base your warrantless attack on "probably"? lol

First, it wasn't my attack, fool!

Second, if your dumb ass had paid attention to the details displayed in the video, you would have seen the shooter shaking his fist at the woman in the car and was VERY PROBABLY haranguing her as he shook his fist in agitation. It didn't look like American Sign Language to me, shit for brains! That is very aggressive conduct by any measure! Would you not put yourself between a loved one and an aggressor in that situation or are you just a fucking coward sitting at a keyboard with self absorbed fantasies?

Third, I wrote that the soon to be dead man, "most probably to put himself between the shooter and his wife and to indicate a non-aggressive posture". Being over 8 feet away from the shooter and in a non-aggressive posture slightly moving further away when shot, does not mitigate in the shooter's favor for a self defense claim under the Florida SYG statute when he dropped the hammer. Stupid fucking rabbit!

There is clear video that damn's the shooter along with witnesses in clear view of the event to boot this time, Cowboy!

 

[Natural Citizen]

The pushER was walking BACKWARDS.

This

 

[miketx]

Justified. If the guy on the ground was in fear of his safety.

What an upside-down PUTZ with that bullshit comment.

The white supremacist on the ground was employing threatening gestures toward the man's wife and probably shouting specific epitaphs from the look of his conduct in the video at her car window. Any real man would protect his wife and push an asshole like that away from his her in that type of situation.

The aggressor was the shooter even before he pulled the gun initiating an argument with the woman, regardless of her parking error. That the asswipe was shoved away from the woman by her husband and went down when he was pushed away from the other man's wife was a consequence of his own fucking aggressive actions.

The round fired was absolutely unnecessary given the soon to be dead man backed up, most probably to put himself between the shooter and his wife and to indicate a non-aggressive posture. The shooter was in no danger when he fired, your bullshit version notwithstanding. Why the fuck was a man with anger issues as described in the video was LICENSED to carry should be under investigation. The shooter will be found guilty of at least manslaughter, but if I was on the jury it would vote for second degree murder!

You base your warrantless attack on "probably"? lol

You base your warrantless attack on "probably"? lol

First, it wasn't my attack, fool!

Second, if your dumb ass had paid attention to the details displayed in the video, you would have seen the shooter shaking his fist at the woman in the car and was VERY PROBABLY haranguing her as he shook his fist in agitation. It didn't look like American Sign Language to me, shit for brains! That is very aggressive conduct by any measure! Would you not put yourself between a loved one and an aggressor in that situation or are you just a fucking coward sitting at a keyboard with self absorbed fantasies?

Third, I wrote that the soon to be dead man, "most probably to put himself between the shooter and his wife and to indicate a non-aggressive posture". Being over 8 feet away from the shooter and in a non-aggressive posture slightly moving further away when shot, does not mitigate in the shooter's favor for a self defense claim under the Florida SYG statute when he dropped the hammer. Stupid fucking rabbit!

There is clear video that damn's the shooter along with witnesses in clear view of the event to boot this time, Cowboy!

Please control your self ok? I'm sorry you don't like my opinion, but I just think it was justified on what I can see.

 

[westwall]

Justified. If the guy on the ground was in fear of his safety.

What an upside-down PUTZ with that bullshit comment.

The white supremacist on the ground was employing threatening gestures toward the man's wife and probably shouting specific epitaphs from the look of his conduct in the video at her car window. Any real man would protect his wife and push an asshole like that away from his her in that type of situation.

The aggressor was the shooter even before he pulled the gun initiating an argument with the woman, regardless of her parking error. That the asswipe was shoved away from the woman by her husband and went down when he was pushed away from the other man's wife was a consequence of his own fucking aggressive actions.

The round fired was absolutely unnecessary given the soon to be dead man backed up, most probably to put himself between the shooter and his wife and to indicate a non-aggressive posture. The shooter was in no danger when he fired, your bullshit version notwithstanding. Why the fuck was a man with anger issues as described in the video was LICENSED to carry should be under investigation. The shooter will be found guilty of at least manslaughter, but if I was on the jury it would vote for second degree murder!

You base your warrantless attack on "probably"? lol

You base your warrantless attack on "probably"? lol

First, it wasn't my attack, fool!

Second, if your dumb ass had paid attention to the details displayed in the video, you would have seen the shooter shaking his fist at the woman in the car and was VERY PROBABLY haranguing her as he shook his fist in agitation. It didn't look like American Sign Language to me, shit for brains! That is very aggressive conduct by any measure! Would you not put yourself between a loved one and an aggressor in that situation or are you just a fucking coward sitting at a keyboard with self absorbed fantasies?

Third, I wrote that the soon to be dead man, "most probably to put himself between the shooter and his wife and to indicate a non-aggressive posture". Being over 8 feet away from the shooter and in a non-aggressive posture slightly moving further away when shot, does not mitigate in the shooter's favor for a self defense claim under the Florida SYG statute when he dropped the hammer. Stupid fucking rabbit!

There is clear video that damn's the shooter along with witnesses in clear view of the event to boot this time, Cowboy!

Please control your self ok? I'm sorry you don't like my opinion, but I just think it was justified on what I can see.

The second the guy stepped back, you no longer have the right to shoot him. If he makes a move towards you again, by all means shoot. But once he is moving away he is no longer an imminent threat and your justification flies out the window.

 

[miketx]

Justified. If the guy on the ground was in fear of his safety.

What an upside-down PUTZ with that bullshit comment.

The white supremacist on the ground was employing threatening gestures toward the man's wife and probably shouting specific epitaphs from the look of his conduct in the video at her car window. Any real man would protect his wife and push an asshole like that away from his her in that type of situation.

The aggressor was the shooter even before he pulled the gun initiating an argument with the woman, regardless of her parking error. That the asswipe was shoved away from the woman by her husband and went down when he was pushed away from the other man's wife was a consequence of his own fucking aggressive actions.

The round fired was absolutely unnecessary given the soon to be dead man backed up, most probably to put himself between the shooter and his wife and to indicate a non-aggressive posture. The shooter was in no danger when he fired, your bullshit version notwithstanding. Why the fuck was a man with anger issues as described in the video was LICENSED to carry should be under investigation. The shooter will be found guilty of at least manslaughter, but if I was on the jury it would vote for second degree murder!

You base your warrantless attack on "probably"? lol

You base your warrantless attack on "probably"? lol

First, it wasn't my attack, fool!

Second, if your dumb ass had paid attention to the details displayed in the video, you would have seen the shooter shaking his fist at the woman in the car and was VERY PROBABLY haranguing her as he shook his fist in agitation. It didn't look like American Sign Language to me, shit for brains! That is very aggressive conduct by any measure! Would you not put yourself between a loved one and an aggressor in that situation or are you just a fucking coward sitting at a keyboard with self absorbed fantasies?

Third, I wrote that the soon to be dead man, "most probably to put himself between the shooter and his wife and to indicate a non-aggressive posture". Being over 8 feet away from the shooter and in a non-aggressive posture slightly moving further away when shot, does not mitigate in the shooter's favor for a self defense claim under the Florida SYG statute when he dropped the hammer. Stupid fucking rabbit!

There is clear video that damn's the shooter along with witnesses in clear view of the event to boot this time, Cowboy!

Please control your self ok? I'm sorry you don't like my opinion, but I just think it was justified on what I can see.

The second the guy stepped back, you no longer have the right to shoot him. If he makes a move towards you again, by all means shoot. But once he is moving away he is no longer an imminent threat and your justification flies out the window.

I think it may also depend on what was said as he moved away. We can't hear anything in the video. It may hinge on that.

 

[Harry Dresden]

Justified. If the guy on the ground was in fear of his safety.

So whatever the guy on the ground says is law?

Watch the tape he’s clearly guilty. The man wasn’t coming forward. If I were on that jury anyways

yep if i was on his jury the guy would be guilty....

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Thats the thing though.
The guy was known to be a parking lot nazi even the guy in the interview said it.
The guy that was shot had to know this since he was a daily customer.
And is there any liability for the store owner? He said the guy hung out there everyday. If he was a problem why didnt he call the cops and have him removed?

That's a big stretch that the guy who was shot had to know that. You have no basis to say that.

All I can say is that if I was armed and I initiated aggression like the shooter did, then no one I grew up with would say I did the right thing. And I think the'd be right.

That someone can stage a murder and those of you who are defending it are defending it is inexplicable to me. He created a situation where he introduced aggression into the situation and kept repeating it while armed. That was a guaranteed death, which is not what the second amendment is about

If the guy was a problem why didnt the owner have him removed from the premises a long time ago?
That doesnt ad up.

Thats beside the point. You dont attack someone over a verbal confrontation.

I agree, don't attack someone over a verbal confrontation; however, if some kook is in my wife's face screaming at her........I might make a mistake in the heat of the moment.

Not in this case.
The guy was standing a good five feet away from the car clearly indicating his wasnt going to get violent.
Had he been all up in her face I could see it.

Ditto for the shooting

He shoved the old man to the ground violently.
Thats about as in your face as you can get.
Tough case...personally I wouldnt have shot the dude just to avoid the potential legal ramifications being in Florida or not.
But then I wouldnt have attacked an old man either.

Who knows,maybe the guy said something that made the guy think it was in his best interest to cap the guy. He didnt seem inclined to shoot at first.

 

[JoeMoma]

Slight tangent: Should the shooter be allowed to keep his CWP even if cleared in this incident?

I think the white guy was at minimum guilty of public disorderly conduct which could be grounds for taking his CWP if its routine behavior.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Thats my take on it.
The could have walked up and asked what the problem was instead he escalated the tension.

Yes, he could have. But you're talking about the victim, not the shooter, who initiated "the tension."

The odds of any one loop ending in a death was probably low. But he kept repeating the scenario.

If the odds of a shooting in one case is 20% and you repeat that scenario 10 times, the odds of a shooting becomes 90%

Thats the thing though.
The guy was known to be a parking lot nazi even the guy in the interview said it.
The guy that was shot had to know this since he was a daily customer.
And is there any liability for the store owner? He said the guy hung out there everyday. If he was a problem why didnt he call the cops and have him removed?

That's a big stretch that the guy who was shot had to know that. You have no basis to say that.

All I can say is that if I was armed and I initiated aggression like the shooter did, then no one I grew up with would say I did the right thing. And I think the'd be right.

That someone can stage a murder and those of you who are defending it are defending it is inexplicable to me. He created a situation where he introduced aggression into the situation and kept repeating it while armed. That was a guaranteed death, which is not what the second amendment is about

If the guy was a problem why didnt the owner have him removed from the premises a long time ago?
That doesnt ad up.

Thats beside the point. You dont attack someone over a verbal confrontation.

As someone who's owned five businesses, it's not simple to get the police to remove someone from your property. And even if they do, they come right back. Furthermore, the person can get angry at you. It's a bad situation.

And the store owner said the guy kept doing that and he wasn't right. That wouldn't scare you to call the cops on someone aggressive that the cops will just rile off further?

Thats a reasonable point but if the guy was chasing off customers I'm sure he would have called the cops.