Justifiable use of deadly force or not?

[2aguy]

Wrong.... you saw the attack from the video, the victim saw the attack after violently experiencing it...big freaking difference.

Not when it comes to shooting someone dead. You are opening the door to legitimizing killing a person for almost any reason under the vague term of “fear”.

No moron...... the victim on the ground saw a completely different attacker than you did from your home watching a video from the corner of the store, you dumb ass....

He has the gun. The attacker stopped. No reason to go further.

And if you studied self defense you would know that it isn't that simple after you have been violently attacked.... you ability to perceive time and distance and your visual awareness are reduced....... ever been in a car accident? The same effect as the attack.

Seems to me that when some has a gun then, they are far to quick to use it. The assaulter was unarmed. It was a public place with other people around. He started the confrontation. The video showed good distance between them.

That man should not have been killed.

The victim who was pushed did not start the physical assault.....he was attacked by the black guy.....and the black guy kept moving forward right after the push and didn't put up his hands as the gun came out.

The video doesn't show the distance between them since it is on the corner of the store, you can't tell how close they actually were....that is the problem with making this judgement from the comfort of your home and not from the ground after being violently attacked.

 

[Coyote]

Here is a better view of the attack....the attacker kept advancing after he pushed and didn't put up his hands as the gun came out..... he was still percieved as a threat by the victim.

He is backing up. You can clearly see it.

 

[2aguy]

It will also make a difference that the attacker stayed squared up with the attacker and didn't turn away from him...

Would you turn your back on a gun?

If I was retreating post haste

Had a rogue cop at night pull a gun on me by mistake. I never turned my back on him. I walked backwards with my hands up towards my vehicle, and I never turned my back to him. May not have been right, but it's what I did.

Notice the key words? Hands up... the universal gesture of non violent intent, that the attacker did not do after attacking the victim.

 

[beagle9]

Justifiable use of deadly force or not?

In the link below is an article with a video that shows a "stand your ground" incident in Clearwater Florida. A women illegally parked in a handicapped spot and got into an argument with a man who confronted her about it. The women's boyfriend, who was in the store at the time, comes out to see the argument and pushes the man to the ground. With the man on the ground he pulls out a gun and aims at the man who assaulted him. The man who committed the assault then backs up. Despite backing away, the man fires his gun anyways hitting the man in the chest. The injured man then runs into the store where he collapses on the ground and dies in front of his five your old son.


My opinion:

Both the women and her boyfriend committed illegal acts which led to the incident. But, I do not feel the man who was assaulted was justified in shooting his attacker. The Attacker had backed off after the gun was pulled. Parking in handicap spot and pushing someone to the ground or both illegal, but punishment for those actions would never warrant the death penalty. Had the attacker continued to assault or move towards the man pushed to the ground, then you might have a case where shooting the gun might be warranted. But that is not what happened. The attacker backed away after the gun was pulled. Then he was shot and killed, dying in front of his five year old son in the store. The man has two other children as well.

I've seen people get pushed to the ground like that in the school yard. Its wrong, you have a right to defend yourself. But in this case, taking another mans life was NOT justified. Call the police and the film of the incident would be enough evidence to punish the attacker in an appropriate manner.

The article and video of the incident are in the link below:

https://nypost.com/2018/07/20/stand...r-in-deadly-fight-over-parking-space-sheriff/

media link from youtube:

Whelp --- once again this is what gun fetishism and its psycho companion the idea that the answer to every situation is to shoot at it, leads to. As if we hadn't figured it out eons ago.

Has nothing to do with millions of responsible gun owners, so don't even go there with the anti-gun bullcrap.

 

[Coyote]

It will also make a difference that the attacker stayed squared up with the attacker and didn't turn away from him...

Would you turn your back on a gun?

If I was retreating post haste

Not me...I would want to see what he was going to do and try to diffuse the situation.

 

[OODA_Loop]

Had a rogue cop at night pull a gun on me by mistake. I never turned my back on him. I walked backwards with my hands up towards my vehicle, and I never turned my back to him. May not have been right, but it's what I did.

Did you just assault him and he shot you in the chest?

 

[2aguy]

Here is a better view of the attack....the attacker kept advancing after he pushed and didn't put up his hands as the gun came out..... he was still percieved as a threat by the victim.

He is backing up. You can clearly see it.

Not afte the initial push.....and by the time he is backing up the guy is already on the ground.... you don't understand how adrenaline affects the body during an attack... you don't understand that you don't know how close they actually were because you are watching the video, the victim is seeing the attacker from the disadvantage of being on the ground after a violent impact with the ground.

 

[Coyote]

It will also make a difference that the attacker stayed squared up with the attacker and didn't turn away from him...

Would you turn your back on a gun?

If I was retreating post haste

Had a rogue cop at night pull a gun on me by mistake. I never turned my back on him. I walked backwards with my hands up towards my vehicle, and I never turned my back to him. May not have been right, but it's what I did.

Notice the key words? Hands up... the universal gesture of non violent intent, that the attacker did not do after attacking the victim.

He backed away.

 

[OODA_Loop]

Not me...I would want to see what he was going to do and try to diffuse the situation.

So you attacked him and he shot you in the chest and you’re not going to use your last breaths to get to help. No. You are going to try and diffuse it?

 

[Pogo]

Justifiable use of deadly force or not?

In the link below is an article with a video that shows a "stand your ground" incident in Clearwater Florida. A women illegally parked in a handicapped spot and got into an argument with a man who confronted her about it. The women's boyfriend, who was in the store at the time, comes out to see the argument and pushes the man to the ground. With the man on the ground he pulls out a gun and aims at the man who assaulted him. The man who committed the assault then backs up. Despite backing away, the man fires his gun anyways hitting the man in the chest. The injured man then runs into the store where he collapses on the ground and dies in front of his five your old son.


My opinion:

Both the women and her boyfriend committed illegal acts which led to the incident. But, I do not feel the man who was assaulted was justified in shooting his attacker. The Attacker had backed off after the gun was pulled. Parking in handicap spot and pushing someone to the ground or both illegal, but punishment for those actions would never warrant the death penalty. Had the attacker continued to assault or move towards the man pushed to the ground, then you might have a case where shooting the gun might be warranted. But that is not what happened. The attacker backed away after the gun was pulled. Then he was shot and killed, dying in front of his five year old son in the store. The man has two other children as well.

I've seen people get pushed to the ground like that in the school yard. Its wrong, you have a right to defend yourself. But in this case, taking another mans life was NOT justified. Call the police and the film of the incident would be enough evidence to punish the attacker in an appropriate manner.

The article and video of the incident are in the link below:

https://nypost.com/2018/07/20/stand...r-in-deadly-fight-over-parking-space-sheriff/

media link from youtube:

Whelp --- once again this is what gun fetishism and its psycho companion the idea that the answer to every situation is to shoot at it, leads to. As if we hadn't figured it out eons ago.

Has nothing to do with millions of responsible gun owners, so don't even go there with the anti-gun bullcrap.

Ummmm yyyyeah. A shooting has nothing to do with guns. AAAlllll righty then.

 

[Lewdog]

Here is a better view of the attack....the attacker kept advancing after he pushed and didn't put up his hands as the gun came out..... he was still percieved as a threat by the victim.

What are you smoking? When the woman got out of the car, the shooter stepped up into her face, that's when he got pushed to the ground. The victim then started to back up and pulled up his shorts before he then started to put up his hands as he got shot. There was a good 6 feet in between them.

 

[beagle9]

So you are saying if a guy with a gun was standing outside the car your wife and kids are sitting in and yelling at them, you'd not do anything about it?

I sure as fuck wouldnt assault him!!!
Thats a good way to get shot.......oh wait.

It's also a good way to get shot standing outside someone's wife's car yelling at her for where she parked. Or in this case, it's a good way to get to shoot someone, which was his goal

another mind reader

Go to the one minute mark on the video and watch the next 20 seconds

There was no audio on the video in the parking lot so you don't know what the guy was saying

Can only go on the witness testimony I guess, but if no case is brought then no one will ever know.

 

[2aguy]

Here is a better view of the attack....the attacker kept advancing after he pushed and didn't put up his hands as the gun came out..... he was still percieved as a threat by the victim.

What are you smoking? When the woman got out of the car, the shooter stepped up into her face, that's when he got pushed to the ground. The victim then started to back up and pulled up his shorts before he then started to put up his hands as he got shot. There was a good 6 feet in between them.

The attacker walked up to the scene and there was no physical contact between the victim and the attackers girlfriend...all physical constact was initiated by the black guy, and he pulled up his shorts as he moved forward....and as the gun came up he didn't put up his hands...

Again.... you guys really, really need to understand self defense and what happens in those situations..... you are making judgements based on a video that flattens the distance between the 2 men, from an angle that hides what the victim actually sees, and you are not the one on the ground looking at the attacker....

You don't know what you are talking about.

 

[beagle9]

Justifiable use of deadly force or not?

In the link below is an article with a video that shows a "stand your ground" incident in Clearwater Florida. A women illegally parked in a handicapped spot and got into an argument with a man who confronted her about it. The women's boyfriend, who was in the store at the time, comes out to see the argument and pushes the man to the ground. With the man on the ground he pulls out a gun and aims at the man who assaulted him. The man who committed the assault then backs up. Despite backing away, the man fires his gun anyways hitting the man in the chest. The injured man then runs into the store where he collapses on the ground and dies in front of his five your old son.


My opinion:

Both the women and her boyfriend committed illegal acts which led to the incident. But, I do not feel the man who was assaulted was justified in shooting his attacker. The Attacker had backed off after the gun was pulled. Parking in handicap spot and pushing someone to the ground or both illegal, but punishment for those actions would never warrant the death penalty. Had the attacker continued to assault or move towards the man pushed to the ground, then you might have a case where shooting the gun might be warranted. But that is not what happened. The attacker backed away after the gun was pulled. Then he was shot and killed, dying in front of his five year old son in the store. The man has two other children as well.

I've seen people get pushed to the ground like that in the school yard. Its wrong, you have a right to defend yourself. But in this case, taking another mans life was NOT justified. Call the police and the film of the incident would be enough evidence to punish the attacker in an appropriate manner.

The article and video of the incident are in the link below:

https://nypost.com/2018/07/20/stand...r-in-deadly-fight-over-parking-space-sheriff/

media link from youtube:

Whelp --- once again this is what gun fetishism and its psycho companion the idea that the answer to every situation is to shoot at it, leads to. As if we hadn't figured it out eons ago.

Has nothing to do with millions of responsible gun owners, so don't even go there with the anti-gun bullcrap.

Ummmm yyyyeah. A shooting has nothing to do with guns. AAAlllll righty then.

Has to do with guns sure, but not in the way you want to go with it. We are tired of the bullcrap where every incident is somehow tied in with the citizens right to bear arms on whole. It's time to go after the criminals and their guns, and yes even these weirdo's that somehow get through the wire, and leave the level minded good armed citizens alone. We need good armed citizens, because the reaction times of the police isn't sufficient enough.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

It will also make a difference that the attacker stayed squared up with the attacker and didn't turn away from him...

Would you turn your back on a gun?

If I was retreating post haste

Had a rogue cop at night pull a gun on me by mistake. I never turned my back on him. I walked backwards with my hands up towards my vehicle, and I never turned my back to him. May not have been right, but it's what I did.

Notice the key words? Hands up... the universal gesture of non violent intent, that the attacker did not do after attacking the victim.

He backed away.

He shouldnt have done a damn thing.
If it were my family I would have removed them from the confrontation as fast as I could.
No good can come from gun play with your family around.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Right, but that isn't the point you made. You argued that it violated the Constitution because he was shot. The government did not shoot him. That's just stupid

No I didn't. I was arguing with Skull Pilot because he said he didn't care that the guy got shot and killed just for a simple assault.

I asked if he supported the Constitution... which has the 8th Amendment that protects citizens from Cruel and Unusual punishment. I said if he supports that, then he should care that the guy was shot and killed for simple assault. Not because the 8th Amendment protects him for that, but because they share the same principle. They aren't the same, nor does the 8th Amendment cover it, but they follow the same principle, so saying you agree with the rights the 8th Amendment gives, but then saying you don't think it is a fair principle in other parts of society is being a hypocrite.

Of course they don't share the same principle. No one ever said or meant that the Constitution should dictate interactions between citizens. It's about dictating to government how it will treat it's citizens. It's a limit on government power.

For example, government cannot restrict free speech. However, you can shit can your employees for what they say, break of with your wife, disavow your friends, criticize them on television. No one ever thought or meant that you have free speech from the consequences of other citizens. It's a horrible argument

What the fuck do you mean they don't share the same principle? It's pretty simple. In a fair world, when someone does something wrong, the punishment they receive should be equal to the severity of the wrongdoing. The founders of this country knew that, that's why they wrote the 8th Amendment... however until the civil war the Federal government did not hold precedence over the way the states took care of things. Thus why AFTER the civil war they created the 13th, 14th, and the 15th Amendments that were referred to as the Reconstruction Amendments. The 13th outlawed slavery, the 14th created due process that extended the power of the Bill of Rights and Constitution to the state level, and the 15th Amendment which extended voting rights.

I said it has nothing to do with the Constitution. You shouldn't have pulled the Constitution into your point. The Constitution is not written to dictate actions between citizens, and it isn't a power for the Federal government to regulate interaction between citizens. The Constitution is a document that limits Federal power. You blew up your point by using the Constitution wrong

I brought it up for a specific reason and was VERY clear it had nothing to do with one citizen over another. Many Trump supporters brag about how important the rights given to people through the Constitution are. Well if you are against cruel and unusual punishment from the government, then it is hypocritical to say that when there is an incident between two citizens it is ok for one citizen to KILL the other over something as small as pushing them to the ground.

You don't get it.

Shooting to protect your own safety is not punishment for a crime

 

[Skull Pilot]

Well if you are against cruel and unusual punishment from the government, then it is hypocritical to say that when there is an incident between two citizens it is ok for one citizen to KILL the other over something as small as pushing them to the ground.

Except pushing someone violently to the paved ground can and has killed people.

Let's try to make this clear to you for umpteenth time. Stand your ground law only allows someone to shoot someone if they feel their life is in imminent danger. When the man shot him, the victim was 7-10 feet AWAY from the shooter and backing up. He was not within range to do anymore to him, and is unarmed.

He certainly was in range

You don't know shit about unarmed combat do you?

How fast do you think a person can close in from 7 feet away?

 

[Skull Pilot]

Where is there any stipulation on being trained to overcome emotion?

An NRA pistol safety class does not train people to overcome emotion

However, it would train people to avoid rather than create conflict as the test way to prevent shootings, however. And the goal is to avoid a shooting if at all possible, not just justify a shooting.

If you were carrying, would you start screaming at another guys's woman over where she was parked? You see any risk of that turning into a shooting?

I don't yell at anyone

but then again yelling at a person is not a crime while forcibly assaulting a person is

Threatening people is a crime.

So seriously, you'd let someone scream at your wife for where you'd parked.

Again with the stupid argument

Shoving someone who is threatening your wife is an unreasonable escallation

Killing someone who shoves you for yelling at his wife is perfectly good.

That's totally idiotic

Do you know he was threatening anyone

There was no audio

Look no matter how you slice it the guy yelling was assaulted by the much larger guy

Would you feel your life might be in danger if a guy who was much bigger than you blindsided you and knocked you on your ass?

If I was knocked on my ace, and I pulled my piece that made the attacker stop and back up therefore showing me that it was over, then knowing me I wouldn't have shot the guy.

I would have held him there until the police arrived, but this cat I think knowing that he was in the wrong "killed" his prime witness before the cops got there. See how that worked ?? Dead guy's cant talk can they ?

Good for you
But that has nothing to do with what the guy who was assaulted by a much larger man might have been thinking

 

[Skull Pilot]

Yes but the threat has not risen to a level requiring lethal force absent hands on or brandishing a weapon.

Neither was getting knocked down by a guy defending his woman from him who then backed off

He wasn't defending his woman when he walked up and shoved the man to the ground.... that was a level of violence that was completely over the top.......

The guy on the ground did not commit a physical act of aggression, and simply arguing with someone isn't cause for a violent physical assault.

I can't believe you people keep arguing that a man pushing you to the ground is an adequate justification for killing him ...

... but ...

... a psychotic man who could physically beat the hell out of your wife screaming at her in a parking lot over where you're parked is no threat and not a justification to do anything at all about it.

Here's a dollar, buy some perspective

Oversimplification

If a guy much larger than you blind sided you and laid you out on the pavement would you think your life might be in danger?

Would depend on what he did it for.. If I felt I deserved it, then I could take the hit no problem.. Of course I'm a former boxer in my youth, so taking hits would be no problem really. If I was in the right then I still wouldn't have shot him under the circumstances that transpired next.

Boxer or no if a much larger guy blindsided you you would not feel your life danger?

And it's easy to say what you would or wouldn't have done while sitting at a computer.

The fact is you have no idea what you would have done if it was you who was blindsided and knocked on your ass

 

[JoeB131]

The attacker walked up to the scene and there was no physical contact between the victim and the attackers girlfriend...all physical constact was initiated by the black guy, and he pulled up his shorts as he moved forward....and as the gun came up he didn't put up his hands...

Again.... you guys really, really need to understand self defense and what happens in those situations..... you are making judgements based on a video that flattens the distance between the 2 men, from an angle that hides what the victim actually sees, and you are not the one on the ground looking at the attacker....

You don't know what you are talking about.

Um, no.

I know this guy lived your dream of shooting a darkie, but this was murder.

The store owner even said the shooter was deranged and harrassed his customers frequently.