Ken Burns Roosevelt Documentary

[Discombobulated]

......and then bigfoot landed on earth by way of UFO, he tried to tell FDR about JFKs assassination but he ignored the warnings. Damn that FDR.

Hmmm. That's a funny way of saying you're sorry and admitting you were wrong, but I'll take it. Bet you were surprised by all those facts and history, huh?

Now stop your hero worship, and quit spreading those lies. Teach your children and grandchildren the truth. Investigate what is REALLY going on in the Middle East right now. The lies and misinformation are being repeated once again for the benefit of those who rule, generation after generation at the expense of all mankind.

Only peace, freedom, free markets, and a government not involved in banking or commerce will keep the people from being slaves. Anything else inevitably leads to a monoply on violence and war.

No, you misunderstand my meaning in much the same way as you misinterpret history to fit an extremely narrow point of view.

My point of view isn't narrow. It is yours that is narrow. My mind is freed. Did you even bother to read my evidence? Did you even bother to try to post something that refutes it? NO.

You have been bested. Historical FACTS are on my side. All you have is a tantrum and saying NO NO NO.

Sorry your cognitive dissonance is so strong. But it is time to face the truth. You have been schooled.

You seem to be confusing facts with speculation and opinion.

Non-Sense. It's based on the fact based research of historians. One of them won a Pulitzer Prize for his history of World War II-era Japanese history.

Go check out the reviews of their books on Google. They generally garnered positive reviews from readers and non-establishment critics.

Day of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor (Google eBook)

Pearl Harbor was not an accident, a mere failure of American intelligence, or a brilliant Japanese military coup. It was the result of a carefully orchestrated design, initiated at the highest levels of our government. According to a key memorandum eight steps were taken to make sure we would enter the war by this means. Pearl Harbor was the only way, leading officials felt, to galvanize the reluctant American public into action.
This great question of Pearl Harbor--what did we know and when did we know it?--has been argued for years. At first, a panel created by FDR concluded that we had no advance warning and should blame only the local commanders for lack of preparedness. More recently, historians such as John Toland and Edward Beach have concluded that some intelligence was intercepted. Finally, just months ago, the Senate voted to exonerate Hawaii commanders Admiral Kimmel and Lieutenant General Short, after the Pentagon officially declared that blame should be "broadly shared." But no investigator has ever been able to prove that fore-knowledge of the attack existed at the highest levels.
Until now. After decades of Freedom of Information Act requests, Robert B. Stinnett has gathered the long-hidden evidence that shatters every shibboleth of Pearl Harbor. It shows that not only was the attack expected, it was deliberately provoked through an eight-step program devised by the Navy. Whereas previous investigators have claimed that our government did not crack Japan's military codes before December 7, 1941, Stinnett offers cable after cable of decryptions. He proves that a Japanese spy on the island transmitted information--including a map of bombing targets--beginning on August 21, and that government intelligence knew all about it. He reveals that Admiral Kimmel was prevented from conducting a routine training exercise at the eleventh hour that would have uncovered the location of the oncoming Japanese fleet. And contrary to previous claims, he shows that the Japanese fleet did not maintain radio silence as it approached Hawaii. Its many coded cables were intercepted and decoded by American cryptographers in Stations on Hawaii and in Seattle.
The evidence is overwhelming. At the highest levels--on FDR's desk--America had ample warning of the pending attack. At those same levels, it was understood that the isolationist American public would not support a declaration of war unless we were attacked first. The result was a plan to anger Japan, to keep the loyal officers responsible for Pearl Harbor in the dark, and thus to drag America into the greatest war of her existence.
Yet even having found what he calls the "terrible truth," Stinnett is still inclined to forgive. "I sympathize with the agonizing dilemma faced by President Roosevelt," he writes. "He was forced to find circuitous means to persuade an isolationist America to join in a fight for freedom....It is easier to take a critical view of this policy a half century removed than to understand fully what went on in Roosevelt's mind in the year prior to Pearl Harbor."
Day of Deceit is the definitive final chapter on America's greatest secret and our worst military disaster.

And of course, the other book, by master historian and Pulitzer prize winner, John Toland,

Yeah, I know, books. Yuck. TV documentaries and the stuff they told you in government schools, now that's a reality we can handle. Much more reliable than independent investigations. Whatever.



But you know, when you got nothing else in a debate, the last refuge of the desperate is to attack the other sides sources, right?



And that's really what my whole beef was about from the very beginning getting into this thread.

Ken Burns is a propagandist. He's out to do two things. Spread disinformation for the elites that run the system, and make a tidy profit doing so.

What a sell out.

None of your sources in any way confirm any part of your generic conspiracy theories. There is no documentary evidence of any kind to prove the hair brain theory that FDR knew the Japanese were going to attack at Pearl Harbor and did nothing to stop it, No such evidence exist. So everything else you post is obviously horse shit based on nothing.

 

[MisterBeale]

Hmmm. That's a funny way of saying you're sorry and admitting you were wrong, but I'll take it. Bet you were surprised by all those facts and history, huh?

Now stop your hero worship, and quit spreading those lies. Teach your children and grandchildren the truth. Investigate what is REALLY going on in the Middle East right now. The lies and misinformation are being repeated once again for the benefit of those who rule, generation after generation at the expense of all mankind.

Only peace, freedom, free markets, and a government not involved in banking or commerce will keep the people from being slaves. Anything else inevitably leads to a monoply on violence and war.

No, you misunderstand my meaning in much the same way as you misinterpret history to fit an extremely narrow point of view.

My point of view isn't narrow. It is yours that is narrow. My mind is freed. Did you even bother to read my evidence? Did you even bother to try to post something that refutes it? NO.

You have been bested. Historical FACTS are on my side. All you have is a tantrum and saying NO NO NO.

Sorry your cognitive dissonance is so strong. But it is time to face the truth. You have been schooled.

You seem to be confusing facts with speculation and opinion.

Non-Sense. It's based on the fact based research of historians. One of them won a Pulitzer Prize for his history of World War II-era Japanese history.

Go check out the reviews of their books on Google. They generally garnered positive reviews from readers and non-establishment critics.

Day of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor (Google eBook)

Pearl Harbor was not an accident, a mere failure of American intelligence, or a brilliant Japanese military coup. It was the result of a carefully orchestrated design, initiated at the highest levels of our government. According to a key memorandum eight steps were taken to make sure we would enter the war by this means. Pearl Harbor was the only way, leading officials felt, to galvanize the reluctant American public into action.
This great question of Pearl Harbor--what did we know and when did we know it?--has been argued for years. At first, a panel created by FDR concluded that we had no advance warning and should blame only the local commanders for lack of preparedness. More recently, historians such as John Toland and Edward Beach have concluded that some intelligence was intercepted. Finally, just months ago, the Senate voted to exonerate Hawaii commanders Admiral Kimmel and Lieutenant General Short, after the Pentagon officially declared that blame should be "broadly shared." But no investigator has ever been able to prove that fore-knowledge of the attack existed at the highest levels.
Until now. After decades of Freedom of Information Act requests, Robert B. Stinnett has gathered the long-hidden evidence that shatters every shibboleth of Pearl Harbor. It shows that not only was the attack expected, it was deliberately provoked through an eight-step program devised by the Navy. Whereas previous investigators have claimed that our government did not crack Japan's military codes before December 7, 1941, Stinnett offers cable after cable of decryptions. He proves that a Japanese spy on the island transmitted information--including a map of bombing targets--beginning on August 21, and that government intelligence knew all about it. He reveals that Admiral Kimmel was prevented from conducting a routine training exercise at the eleventh hour that would have uncovered the location of the oncoming Japanese fleet. And contrary to previous claims, he shows that the Japanese fleet did not maintain radio silence as it approached Hawaii. Its many coded cables were intercepted and decoded by American cryptographers in Stations on Hawaii and in Seattle.
The evidence is overwhelming. At the highest levels--on FDR's desk--America had ample warning of the pending attack. At those same levels, it was understood that the isolationist American public would not support a declaration of war unless we were attacked first. The result was a plan to anger Japan, to keep the loyal officers responsible for Pearl Harbor in the dark, and thus to drag America into the greatest war of her existence.
Yet even having found what he calls the "terrible truth," Stinnett is still inclined to forgive. "I sympathize with the agonizing dilemma faced by President Roosevelt," he writes. "He was forced to find circuitous means to persuade an isolationist America to join in a fight for freedom....It is easier to take a critical view of this policy a half century removed than to understand fully what went on in Roosevelt's mind in the year prior to Pearl Harbor."
Day of Deceit is the definitive final chapter on America's greatest secret and our worst military disaster.

And of course, the other book, by master historian and Pulitzer prize winner, John Toland,

Yeah, I know, books. Yuck. TV documentaries and the stuff they told you in government schools, now that's a reality we can handle. Much more reliable than independent investigations. Whatever.



But you know, when you got nothing else in a debate, the last refuge of the desperate is to attack the other sides sources, right?



And that's really what my whole beef was about from the very beginning getting into this thread.

Ken Burns is a propagandist. He's out to do two things. Spread disinformation for the elites that run the system, and make a tidy profit doing so.

What a sell out.

None of your sources in any way confirm any part of your generic conspiracy theories. There is no documentary evidence of any kind to prove the hair brain theory that FDR knew the Japanese were going to attack at Pearl Harbor and did nothing to stop it, No such evidence exist. So everything else you post is obviously horse shit based on nothing.

Two can play that game. . . .

 

[Rikurzhen]

The People that admire FDR are the top historians in the nation, hardly the uninformed, and indoctrinated, and that admiration has been going on since 1948. Another group of people that admired FDR are the American people that voted for FDR four times, a record that will probably be around for some years to come, even after you and I are gone. Someday another president will be America's greatest president but we will have to wait, maybe even a century or so for that to happen.

Are you on crack or something? History departments across the nation are hotbeds of liberal idiocy. They're overflowing with gender, race and class theorists. It's becoming increasingly difficult to even find classes on subjects like military history, military theory, history classes untouched by race/gender/class concerns.

 

[Moonglow]

Pfft. I don't have hate blinding me. You have years and years of indoctrination and cognitive dissonance blocking your willingness to consider any other facts. YES, I have heard the official government narrative.

But the FACTS are something quite different. Professional historians have since uncovered and unearthed NEW facts. You have heard of something called the freedom of information act? Did you know that there are even STILL some documents from that time period, that FOIA not withstanding, they STILL won't declassify because of how they are afraid it will tarnish the government's, the presidents, and US's legacy of that time period? But we have enough facts now to KNOW that the official story we all learned as kids IS WRONG. They tell us half truths, it's called misinformation, so that when we discuss and argue like this, people who WANT so badly to believe our hero stories, can believe that the truth isn't what it actually is. Calling something a "conspiracy theory," ignoring the documented facts, keeping your illusions, and moving on with your life is so much easier. That way you can justify you jingoism while our armies and corporations pillage and steal the world's resources. Isn't that nice now?

That documented facts are, the Japanese were manipulated into attacking Pearly Harbor, and the US establishment knew when and where it was going to come. They also knew that they had the resources and man power to beat them, or else they wouldn't have lured them into the attack. The war was over before it began. STOP BEING SO OBTUSE. Stop spreading disinformation. Your piece of evidence comes close to the truth, but it leaves A LOT of very important details and relevant facts out of the picture. That's the beauty of misinformation, isn't it?

Pearl Harbor: Hawaii Was Surprised; FDR Was Not
Pearl Harbor Hawaii Was Surprised FDR Was Not

Roosevelt's intentions were nearly exposed in 1940 when Tyler Kent, a code clerk at the U.S. embassy in London, discovered secret dispatches between Roosevelt and Churchill. These revealed that FDR — despite contrary campaign promises — was determined to engage America in the war. Kent smuggled some of the documents out of the embassy, hoping to alert the American public — but was caught. With U.S. government approval, he was tried in a secret British court and confined to a British prison until the war's end. . . .

. . . . During subsequent Pearl Harbor investigations, both General Marshall, Army Chief of Staff, and Admiral Stark, Chief of Naval Operations, denied any recollection of where they had been on the evening of December 6th — despite Marshall's reputation for a photographic memory. But James G. Stahlman, a close friend of Navy Secretary Frank Knox, said Knox told him FDR convened a high-level meeting at the White House that evening. Knox, Marshall, Stark, and War Secretary Stimson attended. Indeed, with the nation on war's threshold, such a conference only made sense. That same evening, the Navy Department received a request from Stimson for a list of the whereabouts of all ships in the Pacific.

On the morning of December 7th, the final portion of Japan's lengthy message to the U.S. government was decoded. Tokyo added two special directives to its ambassadors. The first directive, which the message called "very important," was to deliver the statement at 1 p.m. The second directive ordered that the last copy of code, and the machine that went with it, be destroyed. The gravity of this was immediately recognized in the Navy Department: Japan had a long history of synchronizing attacks with breaks in relations; Sunday was an abnormal day to deliver diplomatic messages — but the best for trying to catch U.S. armed forces at low vigilance; and 1 p.m. in Washington was shortly after dawn in Hawaii!

Admiral Stark arrived at his office at 9:25 a.m. He was shown the message and the important delivery time. One junior officer pointed out the possibility of an attack on Hawaii; another urged that Kimmel be notified. But Stark refused; he did nothing all morning. Years later, he told the press that his conscience was clear concerning Pearl Harbor because all his actions had been dictated by a "higher authority." As Chief of Naval Operations, Stark had only one higher authority: Roosevelt.

"17. In light of the warnings and directions to take appropriate action,
transmitted to both commanders between November 27 and December 7, and
the obligation under the system of coordination then in effect for joint
cooperative action on their pan, it was a *dereliction of duty* on the
part of each of them not to consult and confer with the other respecting
the meaning and intent of the warnings, and the appropriate measures of
defense required by the imminence of hostilities. The attitude of each,
that he was not required to inform himself of, and his lack of interest
in, the measures undertaken by the other to carry out the responsibility
assigned to such other under the provisions of the plans then in effect,
demonstrated on the part of each a lack of appreciation of the
responsibilities vested in them and inherent in their positions as
Commander in Chief, Pacific Fleet, and Commanding General, Hawaiian
Department."

FDR goaded the Japanese to attack?

[35] Tensions between the United States and Japan had been increasing.
President Roosevelt had taken steps to freeze Japanese assets in the
United States, and US oil shipments, accounting for most of Japan's
supply, had ceased. [36] Members of both the House and the Senate
periodically called upon Roosevelt to declare war on Japan.

Forewarned against Japanese attacks the Admiral was

General Short received a similar message on November 27, 1941:

"Negotiations with Japan appear to be terminated to all practical
purposes with only the barest possibilities that the Japanese Government
might come back to offer to continue. Japanese further action
unpredictable but hostile action possible at any moment. If hostilities
cannot, repeat cannot, be avoided the United States desires that Japan
commit the first overt act. This policy should not, repeat not, be
construed as restricting you to a course of action that might jeopardize
your defense. Prior to hostile Japanese action you are directed to
undertake such reconnaissance and other measures as you deem necessary
but these measures should be carried out so as not, repeat not, to alarm
civil population or disclose intent. Report measures taken. Should
hostilities occur you will carry out the tasks assigned in Rainbow Five
so far as they pertain to Japan. Limit dissemination of this highly
secret information to minimum essential officers."

The Admiral had his ship movements and was awaiting attack..from the warning on the 27 of Nov..

It has been argued that this "war warning" language is ambiguous. [63]
Yet the actions of all the parties in Pearl Harbor indicate that they
took the warning seriously and responded with vigor. Admiral Kimmel
issued orders to the fleet to "exercise extreme vigilance against
submarines in operating areas and to depth bomb all contacts expected to
be hostile in the fleet operating areas." [64] Indeed, the first shots
on December 7 were fired not at dawn by Japanese aircraft but well
before dawn by Admiral Kimmel's aggressive antisubmarine patrols.

Halsey, then Commander, Aircraft Battle Force, placed his carrier task
force on a war footing, instituted aircraft patrols with orders to
"shoot down any plane seen in the air that was not known to be one of
our own." [66] On receiving the Army war warning message, which was
ambiguously worded, General Short ordered Alert Number 1 -- an alert
against sabotage. [67] Thus, the Hawaiian commands on December 7 were
ready to meet almost any attack -- except one arriving quickly from the
air

and the plot thickens

Additionally, Admiral Kimmel knew three things that General Short did
not know. First, he learned on December 1, 1941 that the Japanese Navy
had unexpectedly changed its call signs. [68] This information was not
shared with General Short. Second, Admiral Kimmel learned on December 2,
1941 that the location of four Japanese carriers was unknown. [69] This
was because the carriers had not engaged in radio traffic for between
15-25 days. [70] This apparent radio silence, however, also was not
passed to General Short, because Admiral Kimmel assumed that the
carriers remained in home waters. [71] Third, Admiral Kimmel learned on
December 3, 1941 of the existence of "Purple" machines [72], and that
the Japan had ordered certain consulates and embassies to destroy their
codes. [73] Admiral Kimmel, however, did not view the code destruction
"of any vital importance . . ." [74] and did not tell General Short
about it. [75] Yet code destruction suggested that hostilities were
imminent since communication between Japan and her overseas officials
were at an end.

and the real kicker..

By his actions, General Short assumed he would have at least four hours
warning of an air attack. [77] Since he employed none of his assets in
reconnaissance or surveillance, he could get that warning only from the
Navy or from Washington. Under the agreement in place in Hawaii, the
Navy was responsible for long-range reconnaissance. Admiral Kimmel
conducted no long-range air reconnaissance out of Oahu. Thus on December
7th he could get warning only from Washington

Tsk, tsk, not utilizing his tactical abilities himself..

Thus, as a practical matter Admiral Kimmel effectively
placed total faith -- and the security of the forces in Pearl Harbor
against air attack -- in Washington's ability to obtain and provide to
him timely and unambiguous strategic and tactical warning from the Magic
and other intercepts alone. This faith was not justified, nor was it
consistent with his assessment of other technological developments of
the time, or since. Even with today's satellite intelligence and
instantaneous world-wide communication, it still is not prudent to
depend exclusively on Washington for timely and unambiguous information.

That ones gotta hurt..Mr Conspiracy theorist..

Advocates for Admiral Kimmel and General Short argue, in effect, that
the failure of Washington officials to provide the critical intercepts
to the Hawaiian commanders excuses any errors made in Hawaii. It does
not. No warfighting commander ever has enough information or enough
resources. It is the job of the commander to carry out his or her
mission as best he or she can with the information and resources
available to him or her. Indeed, placing exclusive reliance on
Washington for tactical as well as strategic warning of air attack was
an act of misplaced faith.

I reset my case...
DORN REPORT PART THREE

 

[Moonglow]

Pfft. I don't have hate blinding me. You have years and years of indoctrination and cognitive dissonance blocking your willingness to consider any other facts. YES, I have heard the official government narrative.

But the FACTS are something quite different. Professional historians have since uncovered and unearthed NEW facts. You have heard of something called the freedom of information act? Did you know that there are even STILL some documents from that time period, that FOIA not withstanding, they STILL won't declassify because of how they are afraid it will tarnish the government's, the presidents, and US's legacy of that time period? But we have enough facts now to KNOW that the official story we all learned as kids IS WRONG. They tell us half truths, it's called misinformation, so that when we discuss and argue like this, people who WANT so badly to believe our hero stories, can believe that the truth isn't what it actually is. Calling something a "conspiracy theory," ignoring the documented facts, keeping your illusions, and moving on with your life is so much easier. That way you can justify you jingoism while our armies and corporations pillage and steal the world's resources. Isn't that nice now?

That documented facts are, the Japanese were manipulated into attacking Pearly Harbor, and the US establishment knew when and where it was going to come. They also knew that they had the resources and man power to beat them, or else they wouldn't have lured them into the attack. The war was over before it began. STOP BEING SO OBTUSE. Stop spreading disinformation. Your piece of evidence comes close to the truth, but it leaves A LOT of very important details and relevant facts out of the picture. That's the beauty of misinformation, isn't it?

Pearl Harbor: Hawaii Was Surprised; FDR Was Not
Pearl Harbor Hawaii Was Surprised FDR Was Not

Roosevelt's intentions were nearly exposed in 1940 when Tyler Kent, a code clerk at the U.S. embassy in London, discovered secret dispatches between Roosevelt and Churchill. These revealed that FDR — despite contrary campaign promises — was determined to engage America in the war. Kent smuggled some of the documents out of the embassy, hoping to alert the American public — but was caught. With U.S. government approval, he was tried in a secret British court and confined to a British prison until the war's end. . . .

. . . . During subsequent Pearl Harbor investigations, both General Marshall, Army Chief of Staff, and Admiral Stark, Chief of Naval Operations, denied any recollection of where they had been on the evening of December 6th — despite Marshall's reputation for a photographic memory. But James G. Stahlman, a close friend of Navy Secretary Frank Knox, said Knox told him FDR convened a high-level meeting at the White House that evening. Knox, Marshall, Stark, and War Secretary Stimson attended. Indeed, with the nation on war's threshold, such a conference only made sense. That same evening, the Navy Department received a request from Stimson for a list of the whereabouts of all ships in the Pacific.

On the morning of December 7th, the final portion of Japan's lengthy message to the U.S. government was decoded. Tokyo added two special directives to its ambassadors. The first directive, which the message called "very important," was to deliver the statement at 1 p.m. The second directive ordered that the last copy of code, and the machine that went with it, be destroyed. The gravity of this was immediately recognized in the Navy Department: Japan had a long history of synchronizing attacks with breaks in relations; Sunday was an abnormal day to deliver diplomatic messages — but the best for trying to catch U.S. armed forces at low vigilance; and 1 p.m. in Washington was shortly after dawn in Hawaii!

Admiral Stark arrived at his office at 9:25 a.m. He was shown the message and the important delivery time. One junior officer pointed out the possibility of an attack on Hawaii; another urged that Kimmel be notified. But Stark refused; he did nothing all morning. Years later, he told the press that his conscience was clear concerning Pearl Harbor because all his actions had been dictated by a "higher authority." As Chief of Naval Operations, Stark had only one higher authority: Roosevelt.

"17. In light of the warnings and directions to take appropriate action,
transmitted to both commanders between November 27 and December 7, and
the obligation under the system of coordination then in effect for joint
cooperative action on their pan, it was a *dereliction of duty* on the
part of each of them not to consult and confer with the other respecting
the meaning and intent of the warnings, and the appropriate measures of
defense required by the imminence of hostilities. The attitude of each,
that he was not required to inform himself of, and his lack of interest
in, the measures undertaken by the other to carry out the responsibility
assigned to such other under the provisions of the plans then in effect,
demonstrated on the part of each a lack of appreciation of the
responsibilities vested in them and inherent in their positions as
Commander in Chief, Pacific Fleet, and Commanding General, Hawaiian
Department."

FDR goaded the Japanese to attack?

[35] Tensions between the United States and Japan had been increasing.
President Roosevelt had taken steps to freeze Japanese assets in the
United States, and US oil shipments, accounting for most of Japan's
supply, had ceased. [36] Members of both the House and the Senate
periodically called upon Roosevelt to declare war on Japan.

Forewarned against Japanese attacks the Admiral was

General Short received a similar message on November 27, 1941:

"Negotiations with Japan appear to be terminated to all practical
purposes with only the barest possibilities that the Japanese Government
might come back to offer to continue. Japanese further action
unpredictable but hostile action possible at any moment. If hostilities
cannot, repeat cannot, be avoided the United States desires that Japan
commit the first overt act. This policy should not, repeat not, be
construed as restricting you to a course of action that might jeopardize
your defense. Prior to hostile Japanese action you are directed to
undertake such reconnaissance and other measures as you deem necessary
but these measures should be carried out so as not, repeat not, to alarm
civil population or disclose intent. Report measures taken. Should
hostilities occur you will carry out the tasks assigned in Rainbow Five
so far as they pertain to Japan. Limit dissemination of this highly
secret information to minimum essential officers."

The Admiral had his ship movements and was awaiting attack..from the warning on the 27 of Nov..

It has been argued that this "war warning" language is ambiguous. [63]
Yet the actions of all the parties in Pearl Harbor indicate that they
took the warning seriously and responded with vigor. Admiral Kimmel
issued orders to the fleet to "exercise extreme vigilance against
submarines in operating areas and to depth bomb all contacts expected to
be hostile in the fleet operating areas." [64] Indeed, the first shots
on December 7 were fired not at dawn by Japanese aircraft but well
before dawn by Admiral Kimmel's aggressive antisubmarine patrols.

Halsey, then Commander, Aircraft Battle Force, placed his carrier task
force on a war footing, instituted aircraft patrols with orders to
"shoot down any plane seen in the air that was not known to be one of
our own." [66] On receiving the Army war warning message, which was
ambiguously worded, General Short ordered Alert Number 1 -- an alert
against sabotage. [67] Thus, the Hawaiian commands on December 7 were
ready to meet almost any attack -- except one arriving quickly from the
air

and the plot thickens

Additionally, Admiral Kimmel knew three things that General Short did
not know. First, he learned on December 1, 1941 that the Japanese Navy
had unexpectedly changed its call signs. [68] This information was not
shared with General Short. Second, Admiral Kimmel learned on December 2,
1941 that the location of four Japanese carriers was unknown. [69] This
was because the carriers had not engaged in radio traffic for between
15-25 days. [70] This apparent radio silence, however, also was not
passed to General Short, because Admiral Kimmel assumed that the
carriers remained in home waters. [71] Third, Admiral Kimmel learned on
December 3, 1941 of the existence of "Purple" machines [72], and that
the Japan had ordered certain consulates and embassies to destroy their
codes. [73] Admiral Kimmel, however, did not view the code destruction
"of any vital importance . . ." [74] and did not tell General Short
about it. [75] Yet code destruction suggested that hostilities were
imminent since communication between Japan and her overseas officials
were at an end.

and the real kicker..

By his actions, General Short assumed he would have at least four hours
warning of an air attack. [77] Since he employed none of his assets in
reconnaissance or surveillance, he could get that warning only from the
Navy or from Washington. Under the agreement in place in Hawaii, the
Navy was responsible for long-range reconnaissance. Admiral Kimmel
conducted no long-range air reconnaissance out of Oahu. Thus on December
7th he could get warning only from Washington

Tsk, tsk, not utilizing his tactical abilities himself..

Thus, as a practical matter Admiral Kimmel effectively
placed total faith -- and the security of the forces in Pearl Harbor
against air attack -- in Washington's ability to obtain and provide to
him timely and unambiguous strategic and tactical warning from the Magic
and other intercepts alone. This faith was not justified, nor was it
consistent with his assessment of other technological developments of
the time, or since. Even with today's satellite intelligence and
instantaneous world-wide communication, it still is not prudent to
depend exclusively on Washington for timely and unambiguous information.

That ones gotta hurt..Mr Conspiracy theorist..

Advocates for Admiral Kimmel and General Short argue, in effect, that
the failure of Washington officials to provide the critical intercepts
to the Hawaiian commanders excuses any errors made in Hawaii. It does
not. No warfighting commander ever has enough information or enough
resources. It is the job of the commander to carry out his or her
mission as best he or she can with the information and resources
available to him or her. Indeed, placing exclusive reliance on
Washington for tactical as well as strategic warning of air attack was
an act of misplaced faith.

I reset my case...
DORN REPORT PART THREE

It's rather long, hope you can keep up..

And fuck your indoctrination BS..I am a scholar and an unbiased one...I learned history before I was ever able to vote or give damn about politics..So I have a neutral position, my only concern is for discovering the truth.

 

[Discombobulated]

I look forward to the day when the contents of the secret FDR Pearl Harbor memo are finally revealed.

 

[Moonglow]

I look forward to the day when the contents of the secret FDR Pearl Harbor memo are finally revealed.

Many are unreadable..yet the admiral was negligent in not preparing better..

 

[Moonglow]

The People that admire FDR are the top historians in the nation, hardly the uninformed, and indoctrinated, and that admiration has been going on since 1948. Another group of people that admired FDR are the American people that voted for FDR four times, a record that will probably be around for some years to come, even after you and I are gone. Someday another president will be America's greatest president but we will have to wait, maybe even a century or so for that to happen.

Are you on crack or something? History departments across the nation are hotbeds of liberal idiocy. They're overflowing with gender, race and class theorists. It's becoming increasingly difficult to even find classes on subjects like military history, military theory, history classes untouched by race/gender/class concerns.

BS, when is the last time you were even in a college level history class?

 

[Moonglow]

Hmmm. That's a funny way of saying you're sorry and admitting you were wrong, but I'll take it. Bet you were surprised by all those facts and history, huh?

Now stop your hero worship, and quit spreading those lies. Teach your children and grandchildren the truth. Investigate what is REALLY going on in the Middle East right now. The lies and misinformation are being repeated once again for the benefit of those who rule, generation after generation at the expense of all mankind.

Only peace, freedom, free markets, and a government not involved in banking or commerce will keep the people from being slaves. Anything else inevitably leads to a monoply on violence and war.

No, you misunderstand my meaning in much the same way as you misinterpret history to fit an extremely narrow point of view.

My point of view isn't narrow. It is yours that is narrow. My mind is freed. Did you even bother to read my evidence? Did you even bother to try to post something that refutes it? NO.

You have been bested. Historical FACTS are on my side. All you have is a tantrum and saying NO NO NO.

Sorry your cognitive dissonance is so strong. But it is time to face the truth. You have been schooled.

You seem to be confusing facts with speculation and opinion.

Non-Sense. It's based on the fact based research of historians. One of them won a Pulitzer Prize for his history of World War II-era Japanese history.

Go check out the reviews of their books on Google. They generally garnered positive reviews from readers and non-establishment critics.

Day of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor (Google eBook)

Pearl Harbor was not an accident, a mere failure of American intelligence, or a brilliant Japanese military coup. It was the result of a carefully orchestrated design, initiated at the highest levels of our government. According to a key memorandum eight steps were taken to make sure we would enter the war by this means. Pearl Harbor was the only way, leading officials felt, to galvanize the reluctant American public into action.
This great question of Pearl Harbor--what did we know and when did we know it?--has been argued for years. At first, a panel created by FDR concluded that we had no advance warning and should blame only the local commanders for lack of preparedness. More recently, historians such as John Toland and Edward Beach have concluded that some intelligence was intercepted. Finally, just months ago, the Senate voted to exonerate Hawaii commanders Admiral Kimmel and Lieutenant General Short, after the Pentagon officially declared that blame should be "broadly shared." But no investigator has ever been able to prove that fore-knowledge of the attack existed at the highest levels.
Until now. After decades of Freedom of Information Act requests, Robert B. Stinnett has gathered the long-hidden evidence that shatters every shibboleth of Pearl Harbor. It shows that not only was the attack expected, it was deliberately provoked through an eight-step program devised by the Navy. Whereas previous investigators have claimed that our government did not crack Japan's military codes before December 7, 1941, Stinnett offers cable after cable of decryptions. He proves that a Japanese spy on the island transmitted information--including a map of bombing targets--beginning on August 21, and that government intelligence knew all about it. He reveals that Admiral Kimmel was prevented from conducting a routine training exercise at the eleventh hour that would have uncovered the location of the oncoming Japanese fleet. And contrary to previous claims, he shows that the Japanese fleet did not maintain radio silence as it approached Hawaii. Its many coded cables were intercepted and decoded by American cryptographers in Stations on Hawaii and in Seattle.
The evidence is overwhelming. At the highest levels--on FDR's desk--America had ample warning of the pending attack. At those same levels, it was understood that the isolationist American public would not support a declaration of war unless we were attacked first. The result was a plan to anger Japan, to keep the loyal officers responsible for Pearl Harbor in the dark, and thus to drag America into the greatest war of her existence.
Yet even having found what he calls the "terrible truth," Stinnett is still inclined to forgive. "I sympathize with the agonizing dilemma faced by President Roosevelt," he writes. "He was forced to find circuitous means to persuade an isolationist America to join in a fight for freedom....It is easier to take a critical view of this policy a half century removed than to understand fully what went on in Roosevelt's mind in the year prior to Pearl Harbor."
Day of Deceit is the definitive final chapter on America's greatest secret and our worst military disaster.

And of course, the other book, by master historian and Pulitzer prize winner, John Toland,

Yeah, I know, books. Yuck. TV documentaries and the stuff they told you in government schools, now that's a reality we can handle. Much more reliable than independent investigations. Whatever.



But you know, when you got nothing else in a debate, the last refuge of the desperate is to attack the other sides sources, right?



And that's really what my whole beef was about from the very beginning getting into this thread.

Ken Burns is a propagandist. He's out to do two things. Spread disinformation for the elites that run the system, and make a tidy profit doing so.

What a sell out.

None of your sources in any way confirm any part of your generic conspiracy theories. There is no documentary evidence of any kind to prove the hair brain theory that FDR knew the Japanese were going to attack at Pearl Harbor and did nothing to stop it, No such evidence exist. So everything else you post is obviously horse shit based on nothing.

you mean you can't make shit up, like conspiracy theorist do?

 

[Rikurzhen]

The People that admire FDR are the top historians in the nation, hardly the uninformed, and indoctrinated, and that admiration has been going on since 1948. Another group of people that admired FDR are the American people that voted for FDR four times, a record that will probably be around for some years to come, even after you and I are gone. Someday another president will be America's greatest president but we will have to wait, maybe even a century or so for that to happen.

Are you on crack or something? History departments across the nation are hotbeds of liberal idiocy. They're overflowing with gender, race and class theorists. It's becoming increasingly difficult to even find classes on subjects like military history, military theory, history classes untouched by race/gender/class concerns.

BS, when is the last time you were even in a college level history class?

I don't need to be enrolled in a class to SEE what is going on in a department.

 

[Moonglow]

Is there absolutely not bottom to your ignorance????

Not only do you know nothing and appear proud of same....
...but you will simply make things up!!!!

There was no Roosevelt 'military buildup' in the 1930s.



FDR did very little for the Army either with its size or weapons and during the 1930s, his defense budgets were cut to the bone.

Typical PoliticalChic misinformed and distorted ideas. She knows less than nothing about the topics and ideas she attempts to promote.

I just produced a fact.....

And you replied with.......


......nothing.




It should be clear as to which of us know about the 'topics.'

You base your assertion on a comment made by Marshall. He made that comment you use as your fact, but he made it knowing FDR had prepared the nation by developing and readying the production of the most sophisticated and technologically advanced weapons in the world. After developing them he produced limited numbers of them, but enough so that the producers were ready to swing into mass production as soon as funding became available. Marshall didn't have to deal with that facet of building up the military.

All three Yorktown Class carriers were built under FDR's administration, Yorktown CV 5, Enterprise CV 6 and Hornet CV 8. Not satisfied with these new carriers, FDR put the Navy to work in development of the Essex Class carrier and began producing them. Three would be built, the last, the would be started only six days before Pearl harbor. The important thing about this is that the ship building yards were ready to swing into production after having built the first ones. As soon as the funds became available the began producing more of them, 19 more to be exact. They are what gave us control of the Pacific.

Cruisers were advanced and the development of the New Orleans Class cruisers were added to the fleet. Seven of them were built under FDR ready for the War. Add to this the Farragut Class destroyers. Six of them were produced. Once again, the importance of producing these warships was secondary to getting the ship yards prepared to mass produce them.

Apparently building six modern aircraft carriers, seven modern cruisers and six modern destroyers is doing "nothing" to some. How convenient it must be to be able to omit and disregard facts when attempting to rewrite history.

FDR prepared for war and created a military doctrine that is used to this very day. Develop and produce the most sophisticated and technologically advanced weaponry in the world. When you send your forces off to war, send them with the best weapons and support possible. Send them with weapons that out class and out shoot the enemy.

FDR did the same advanced development and limited production method of preparing with everything from the Sherman Tank to the M-1 Garand. The B-17's and B-24's and B-26 as well as the fighters like the P 38 and P 51 and the Navy/Marine F4U Corsair all went through FDR's method of development, limited production and eventual mass production
with industry prepared to meet the challenge of arming the nation as soon as they were asked to do so. And they did.

"You base your assertion on a comment made by Marshall."

1. So....the quote is accurate..."George Marshall's words to FDR in May 1940: "If you don't do something...and do it right away, I don't know what is going to happen to this country"...

Well....either Marshall knew what he was talking about....or you do.

And you, being regularly revealed to be a Roosevelt boot-licking dunce....leaves little in the way of puzzlement.



2. Once the veracity of Marshall's statement is seen.....the absurdity of your attempt to shield Roosevelt from well deserved vituperation is risible.

Your claim is that, yes, Marshall said it...but FDR was already taking care of business.
No...he wasn't....that's why Marshall said that to him....you dope.

Marshall made his statement in May of 1940 and FDR finally got congress to approve over a billion dollars to fund the military at the same time. Over a billion dollars was being appropriated to prepare for the war and Marshall wanted a say in how it would be spent. He wanted it to build US forces in specific ways, and not to be used assisting the British with aircraft and equipment. FDR took his advice. In addition he accomplished what most thought was impossible, he got the draft approved by Congress four months later.
You use the Marshall comment to seem like he was asking for funds and action and FDR was ignoring him. Marshall's comment and the funding as well as FDR's implementation of measures to grow the military all came at the same time.

Much of the resources was going to the Philippines, Guam, Wake and Midway..

Hmmm. That's a funny way of saying you're sorry and admitting you were wrong, but I'll take it. Bet you were surprised by all those facts and history, huh?

Now stop your hero worship, and quit spreading those lies. Teach your children and grandchildren the truth. Investigate what is REALLY going on in the Middle East right now. The lies and misinformation are being repeated once again for the benefit of those who rule, generation after generation at the expense of all mankind.

Only peace, freedom, free markets, and a government not involved in banking or commerce will keep the people from being slaves. Anything else inevitably leads to a monoply on violence and war.

So now you support ISIS and other extreme terrorist groups....Peace and free markets ain't worth shit if you have disruptions in the whole system by those that seek to destroy it..

Where did you get THAT from?

No, if you bothered to read any of the information I posted, you would see that the political elites always manipulate events so that the desired outcome always favors US commerce, industry, banking and trade on Wall street. It has absolutely nothing to do with "national security."

One would have to be obtuse to believe that ISIS poses any significant threat to America. Just as one would have to be daft to believe that either the Germans or Japanese posed any serious threat to America. The intelligence services would have known long before they would have had sufficient navel power to invade either the East or West coast. Hell, Germany didn't have the Navel power to invade England. It sure as hell didn't have what it would have taken to get across the Atlantic.

And Japan? Forget about it.

By the time either Axis nation even came close to getting up the strength to invade, the US would've been prepared.

As far as ISIS? The US, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Qatar MADE ISIS. With out help from the CIA and Turkey, and with out the cooperation of the global markets? ISIS would wither away and die next month. ISIS was created to help achieve a goal. The US and it's allies are playing both sides.

Just as it FDR played the Americans to get them into WWII, OBAMA is playing them to get them to fund an effort to redraw the whole middle east to make it more suitable for American corporations to develop and create American proxy governments friendly to Israel and Western business interests.

Google: Project for a New Middle East, if you don't understand yet.

WWII was the Anglo-American world bankers plan to set up the UN and international financial markets, the middle East game is about a global rearrangement of the energy deck chairs.

If you can't see the bigger picture? Don't come whining to me.

More BS.

Members of both the House and the Senate
periodically called upon Roosevelt to declare war on Japan

Honolulu Star-Bulletin, 22 November 1941, p. 1.

 

[Moonglow]

The People that admire FDR are the top historians in the nation, hardly the uninformed, and indoctrinated, and that admiration has been going on since 1948. Another group of people that admired FDR are the American people that voted for FDR four times, a record that will probably be around for some years to come, even after you and I are gone. Someday another president will be America's greatest president but we will have to wait, maybe even a century or so for that to happen.

Are you on crack or something? History departments across the nation are hotbeds of liberal idiocy. They're overflowing with gender, race and class theorists. It's becoming increasingly difficult to even find classes on subjects like military history, military theory, history classes untouched by race/gender/class concerns.

BS, when is the last time you were even in a college level history class?

I don't need to be enrolled in a class to SEE what is going on in a department.

So you've seen every dept. in every institute of higher learning?

 

[Moonglow]

By the time either Axis nation even came close to getting up the strength to invade, the US would've been prepared.

Yet had the Axis powers had not been stopped they would have taken out vital resources for the US, we did not have every resource for every material made in the US...In the USA..

 

[Rikurzhen]

The People that admire FDR are the top historians in the nation, hardly the uninformed, and indoctrinated, and that admiration has been going on since 1948. Another group of people that admired FDR are the American people that voted for FDR four times, a record that will probably be around for some years to come, even after you and I are gone. Someday another president will be America's greatest president but we will have to wait, maybe even a century or so for that to happen.

Are you on crack or something? History departments across the nation are hotbeds of liberal idiocy. They're overflowing with gender, race and class theorists. It's becoming increasingly difficult to even find classes on subjects like military history, military theory, history classes untouched by race/gender/class concerns.

BS, when is the last time you were even in a college level history class?

I don't need to be enrolled in a class to SEE what is going on in a department.

So you've seen every dept. in every institute of higher learning?

Think Poindexter, think. From what type of vantage point could one observe what takes place in a discipline without having to be a student in a class.

 

[Moonglow]

The People that admire FDR are the top historians in the nation, hardly the uninformed, and indoctrinated, and that admiration has been going on since 1948. Another group of people that admired FDR are the American people that voted for FDR four times, a record that will probably be around for some years to come, even after you and I are gone. Someday another president will be America's greatest president but we will have to wait, maybe even a century or so for that to happen.

Are you on crack or something? History departments across the nation are hotbeds of liberal idiocy. They're overflowing with gender, race and class theorists. It's becoming increasingly difficult to even find classes on subjects like military history, military theory, history classes untouched by race/gender/class concerns.

BS, when is the last time you were even in a college level history class?

I don't need to be enrolled in a class to SEE what is going on in a department.

So you've seen every dept. in every institute of higher learning?

Think Poindexter, think. From what type of vantage point could one observe what takes place in a discipline without having to be a student in a class.

oh tell me great seer...

 

[Discombobulated]

No, you misunderstand my meaning in much the same way as you misinterpret history to fit an extremely narrow point of view.

My point of view isn't narrow. It is yours that is narrow. My mind is freed. Did you even bother to read my evidence? Did you even bother to try to post something that refutes it? NO.

You have been bested. Historical FACTS are on my side. All you have is a tantrum and saying NO NO NO.

Sorry your cognitive dissonance is so strong. But it is time to face the truth. You have been schooled.

You seem to be confusing facts with speculation and opinion.

Non-Sense. It's based on the fact based research of historians. One of them won a Pulitzer Prize for his history of World War II-era Japanese history.

Go check out the reviews of their books on Google. They generally garnered positive reviews from readers and non-establishment critics.

Day of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor (Google eBook)

Pearl Harbor was not an accident, a mere failure of American intelligence, or a brilliant Japanese military coup. It was the result of a carefully orchestrated design, initiated at the highest levels of our government. According to a key memorandum eight steps were taken to make sure we would enter the war by this means. Pearl Harbor was the only way, leading officials felt, to galvanize the reluctant American public into action.
This great question of Pearl Harbor--what did we know and when did we know it?--has been argued for years. At first, a panel created by FDR concluded that we had no advance warning and should blame only the local commanders for lack of preparedness. More recently, historians such as John Toland and Edward Beach have concluded that some intelligence was intercepted. Finally, just months ago, the Senate voted to exonerate Hawaii commanders Admiral Kimmel and Lieutenant General Short, after the Pentagon officially declared that blame should be "broadly shared." But no investigator has ever been able to prove that fore-knowledge of the attack existed at the highest levels.
Until now. After decades of Freedom of Information Act requests, Robert B. Stinnett has gathered the long-hidden evidence that shatters every shibboleth of Pearl Harbor. It shows that not only was the attack expected, it was deliberately provoked through an eight-step program devised by the Navy. Whereas previous investigators have claimed that our government did not crack Japan's military codes before December 7, 1941, Stinnett offers cable after cable of decryptions. He proves that a Japanese spy on the island transmitted information--including a map of bombing targets--beginning on August 21, and that government intelligence knew all about it. He reveals that Admiral Kimmel was prevented from conducting a routine training exercise at the eleventh hour that would have uncovered the location of the oncoming Japanese fleet. And contrary to previous claims, he shows that the Japanese fleet did not maintain radio silence as it approached Hawaii. Its many coded cables were intercepted and decoded by American cryptographers in Stations on Hawaii and in Seattle.
The evidence is overwhelming. At the highest levels--on FDR's desk--America had ample warning of the pending attack. At those same levels, it was understood that the isolationist American public would not support a declaration of war unless we were attacked first. The result was a plan to anger Japan, to keep the loyal officers responsible for Pearl Harbor in the dark, and thus to drag America into the greatest war of her existence.
Yet even having found what he calls the "terrible truth," Stinnett is still inclined to forgive. "I sympathize with the agonizing dilemma faced by President Roosevelt," he writes. "He was forced to find circuitous means to persuade an isolationist America to join in a fight for freedom....It is easier to take a critical view of this policy a half century removed than to understand fully what went on in Roosevelt's mind in the year prior to Pearl Harbor."
Day of Deceit is the definitive final chapter on America's greatest secret and our worst military disaster.

And of course, the other book, by master historian and Pulitzer prize winner, John Toland,

Yeah, I know, books. Yuck. TV documentaries and the stuff they told you in government schools, now that's a reality we can handle. Much more reliable than independent investigations. Whatever.



But you know, when you got nothing else in a debate, the last refuge of the desperate is to attack the other sides sources, right?



And that's really what my whole beef was about from the very beginning getting into this thread.

Ken Burns is a propagandist. He's out to do two things. Spread disinformation for the elites that run the system, and make a tidy profit doing so.

What a sell out.

None of your sources in any way confirm any part of your generic conspiracy theories. There is no documentary evidence of any kind to prove the hair brain theory that FDR knew the Japanese were going to attack at Pearl Harbor and did nothing to stop it, No such evidence exist. So everything else you post is obviously horse shit based on nothing.

you mean you can't make shit up, like conspiracy theorist do?

Of course everyone at the time expected Japanese action somewhere, they just didn't know exactly where and when. Most people expected a Japanese attack on British and Dutch territories or maybe even the Philippines, Pearl Harbor seemed a less likely target. We didn't really know because we were unaware that the Japanese knew we had cracked their communications code.

 

[Rikurzhen]

Are you on crack or something? History departments across the nation are hotbeds of liberal idiocy. They're overflowing with gender, race and class theorists. It's becoming increasingly difficult to even find classes on subjects like military history, military theory, history classes untouched by race/gender/class concerns.

BS, when is the last time you were even in a college level history class?

I don't need to be enrolled in a class to SEE what is going on in a department.

So you've seen every dept. in every institute of higher learning?

Think Poindexter, think. From what type of vantage point could one observe what takes place in a discipline without having to be a student in a class.

oh tell me great seer...

Hey, this is the internet, you have no way of telling whether I'm truthful or not, so it's best you just conjure up your own answer.

 

[Moonglow]

BS, when is the last time you were even in a college level history class?

I don't need to be enrolled in a class to SEE what is going on in a department.

So you've seen every dept. in every institute of higher learning?

Think Poindexter, think. From what type of vantage point could one observe what takes place in a discipline without having to be a student in a class.

oh tell me great seer...

Hey, this is the internet, you have no way of telling whether I'm truthful or not, so it's best you just conjure up your own answer.

Empty, as usual...

 

[Flopper]

Like Lincoln, FDR faced challenges not faced by Presidents before or since. Each rose to the challenge, and made this a better nation. Had Eisenhower had these kinds of challenges, I believe he had the character to also became one of the very great Presidents.

Agreed he had the character but he did not have the political savvy of Roosevelt. Just to be president, you must be smart, tough, and driven but to be a great president, you must have a clear vision, confidence to the point of arrogance, and the ability to manipulate people. Roosevelt had all this and more.

Eisenhower was pushed into the presidency. He had no desire to be president. Roosevelt on the hand was planning on being president when he enter politics.

IMHO, Roosevelt was seriously flawed as a person. He was not a dedicated husband, father, or friend. In person, he was often distant but in public he inspired confidence and loyalty. In his fireside chats, he came across as as a trusted friend but in reality he used those chats to manipulate public opinion.

 

[Moonglow]

Like Lincoln, FDR faced challenges not faced by Presidents before or since. Each rose to the challenge, and made this a better nation. Had Eisenhower had these kinds of challenges, I believe he had the character to also became one of the very great Presidents.

Agreed he had the character but he did not have the political savvy of Roosevelt. Just to be president, you must be smart, tough, and driven but to be a great president, you must have a clear vision, confidence to the point of arrogance, and the ability to manipulate people. Roosevelt had all this and more.

Eisenhower was pushed into the presidency. He had no desire to be president. Roosevelt on the hand was planning on being president when he enter politics.

IMHO, Roosevelt was seriously flawed as a person. He was not a dedicated husband, father, or friend. In person, he was often distant but in public he inspired confidence and loyalty. In his fireside chats, he came across as as a trusted friend but in reality he used those chats to manipulate public opinion.

What politician doesn't??