Kill The Profit Motive And You Kill Modern Medical Advances And Prosperity

[Cecilie1200]

When our government spends twice as much on medical research as the EU countries and European commission do.

SO what major innovations have come from government research?

Typically the research is not done by the government. The funds are dispensed through grants. The proportion of public to private dollars is roughly the same in the US as in Europe, so it seems likely that they are allocated as a partial matching grant.

Hate to break it to you, but private industry spends a LOT more on research than the government does.

 

[healthmyths]

A lot of medical advancements came from WWII and the notes on the experiments done by the Germans at that time.

"A lot"???
Please... who other then little kids make such GROSS generalizations?
I am so tired of these gross generalizations that then become the gist of actions!
YOUR generalization is a perfect example of how come we have this gigantic debacle known as Obamacare!
Obama and you and other supporters keep using the "46 million uninsured" as the REASON # 1 for this cluster...K!
Idiots who used the generalization of "46 million" didn't seem to know that
10 million of the 46 million are NOT citizens and therefore NOT ELIGIBLE yet idiots include this 10 million!
14 million people living in poverty levels DON"T know they are ELIGIBLE for Medicaid so they are counted as "uninsured"! Wrong!
18 million earning over $50,000 spend less then $1,000 a year don't want their employers' health plans .. but they are counted! Wrong!
Adds up to 42 million that are either not eligible i.e. illegal, or eligible don't know it or don't want but can afford.. but NOT 46 million!

So just your gross generalization is a great example of idiocy spawning actions... i.e. generalization "46 million " totally bogus spawned ACA!
See get facts before you generalize!!

 

[bripat9643]

I'll answer it when you can tell me what the last advance that came about without the aid of ANY public moneys.

That's obviously an admission that you can't list anything.

Which is in turn an admission that you can't list anything

Why would I bother? Your request is absurd. It proves nothing.

 

[RDD_1210]

Today I learned that adding more people on to private insurance plans is now considered socialized medicine.

So did the meaning of socialism change over the weekend and I didn't get an email about it?

Government control is socialism, and Obamacare is 80,000 pages of government control.

....and guess who doesn't understand what Socialism is.

 

[RDD_1210]

Since this thread was DOA when it claimed Obamacare is socialized medicine, this list is overkill, but here's a list of medical inventions and their country of origin.

Adrenaline (epinephrine): Isolated and used to treat asthma by Jokichi Takamine (Japan)
Artificial heart: Paul Winchell (USA) holds the original patent for an implantable artificial heart. Oddly enough, he was also an accomplished ventriloquist who was the voice of Tigger in Disney’s Winnie the Pooh
Aspirin: Felix Hoffmann (Germany) – he also synthesized heroin
Beta blockers: Sir James Black (UK) made a number of contributions to understanding of cardiology for which he was awarded the Nobel Prize in 1988. Among his inventions was the first of a class of beta blocker drugs which among other things offers cardioprotection after a heart attack and reduce high blood pressure.
Bone marrow compatibility test: Barbara Bain (Canada)
Cardiac pacemaker: The idea for the pacemaker came from J A McWilliam in 1889 (UK). The first external pacemaker was designed and built by John Hopps (Canada). Earl Bakken (USA) developed the first externally wearable pacemaker. The first implantable pacemaker was designed by Rune Elmqvist and Ake Senning (Sweden).
CAT scan: Godfrey Hounsfield (UK), Alban Cormac (USA, born in South Africa)
Clinical trials: Austin Bradford Hill (UK)
Contact lenses: Leonardo Da Vinci (Italy)
Electrocardiogram (ECG or EKG) – Justin Ho (UK). The first portable EKG was developed by Taro Takemi (Japan)
Fetal monitor: K. Hammacher (Germany), Hewlett-Packard Co (USA, Germany)
Heart lung machine: John Heysham Gibbon (USA)
Heart transplant: Christiaan Barnard (South Africa) successfully transplanted the first human heart from one person to another
Helicobacter pylori: Barry Marshall and Robin Warren (Australia) discovered this bacterium which causes stomach ulcers
Hepatitis B vaccine: Baruch Blumberg, Irving Millman (USA)
HIV: Luc Montagnier (France) is credited for discovering HIV as the cause for AIDS
In vitro fertilization: John Rock (USA) extracted the first intact fertilized human egg. Carl Wood (Australia) pioneered the use of frozen embryos. Patrick Steptoe and Robert Edwards (UK) carried out the first successful procedure resulting in the birth of a healthy infant, Louise Brown.
Insulin: Isolated by Frederick Banting, Charles Best, J.J.R. Macleod, James Collip (Canada). They also pioneered the process for using insulin to treat diabetes
Medical ultrasound: Karl Theodore Dussik (Austria), Ian Donald (Scotland)
Nuclear medicine: Taro Tekemi (Japan)
Pasteurization: Developed by Louis Pasteur (France) as a method to kill germs. Pasteur also developed the germ theory of infection
Penicillin: Alexander Fleming (Scotland)
Polio vaccine: Jonas Salk, Albert Sabin (USA)
Smallpox vaccine: Although Edward Jenner (UK) is credited with developing the vaccine, his work was based on an existing innoculation technique brought back from Turkey by Lady Mary Montague. It was Jenner, however, that invented the term “vaccination”
Spray-on-skin: Fiona Wood (Australia) developed this for burn victims
Structure of DNA: Rosalind Franklin (UK), Francis Crick (UK), James Watson (USA)
Surgery: Abu Al-Qasim al-Zahrawi (Andalusia) is considered the father of modern surgery
Tuberculosis vaccine: Albert Calmette, Charles Guerin (France)
Viagra: Ian Osterloh (UK) – OK, not that significant, but interesting
Xray: Wilhelm Konrad Roentgen (Germany)

What a numskull. Most of these innovations/discoveries occure long before any of these nations adopted socialized medicine. When do you imagine the small pox vaccine was invented? Penicillin? the Xray?

You are truly stupid.

Hahaha, shown proof and you punt. How predictable. So your assertion now is that these countries were all under a privatized for-profit healthcare system when these innovations occurred. Is that it?

 

[RDD_1210]

Actually you left out the government mandated/forcing to buy private insurance via a government controlled web site.

Then again most of the far left Obama drones don't much beyond the far left programing anyways.

Ok.....and? Which part of that is socialism? Governments make laws. You are aware of that right? Just because you don't like a law, doesn't make it "socialism".

I know the answer to this already, but do you know what socialism means?

All laws regulating the conduct of business are a step in the direction of socialism. There is no fine line where you can say because of this law we are now socialist. Not unless government nationalizes industry.

Enacting laws does not make a country socialist. Holy fuck how retarded can you possibly be? Don't answer...I don't want to know.

 

[RDD_1210]

And you just showed that the far left propaganda in you is to strong to be broken with facts.

This may help you:

Socialism is an economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy.[1] "Social ownership" may refer to cooperative enterprises, common ownership, state ownership, citizen ownership of equity, or any combination of these.[2] There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them.[3] They differ in the type of social ownership they advocate, the degree to which they rely on markets or planning, how management is to be organised within productive institutions, and the role of the state in constructing socialism.[4]

Socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Great. Now in your own words, which part of what you just quoted applies to our healthcare system? Which part of Obamacare is state ownership, citizen ownership or common ownership?

Control is what matters. Ownership doesn't mean a thing if the owners don't make the important decisions. Then it's faux ownership.

It must be fun to invent meanings for words.

 

[RDD_1210]

That's obviously an admission that you can't list anything.

Which is in turn an admission that you can't list anything

Why would I bother? Your request is absurd. It proves nothing.

And the punt is away!

 

[emilynghiem]

Modern medical advances are supposed to be about saving lives, not making money.

Also, marijuana has shown signs of fighting cancer. Marijuana really doesn't cost anything more than putting a seed in the ground. So, no, it doesn't take millions of dollars to find cures.
Cannabis and Cannabinoids (PDQ®) - National Cancer Institute

Dear KNB:
If you do the research on spiritual healing and reducing or curing cancer, there are no side effects at all, and this is preventative of not only cancer but other diseases as well.

The impact on cost effectiveness, saving lives and medical resources would be tremendous if spiritual healing were more scientifically recognized.

Unlike marijuana which DOES have side effects, at least with smoking it.

Please do not stop the research there, but go for even more and more natural healing.
And this will lead to universal health care by reducing costs to the minimal in order to maximize the resources to serve more of the public.

On that note, science can break through the religious stigma associated with spiritual healing and (also distinguish the FRAUDULENT approaches to "faith healing" that are dangerous and deadly by falsely deny medical care. true spiritual healing facilitates medical and mental treatment by FORGIVENESS therapy, identifying the cause of why people are blocking their own minds and body from healing themselves as much as naturally possible)

Right now, if govt is in charge of health care, the secularism creates a public bias AGAINST research and access to spiritual healing. The PRIVATE sector and free market approaches to health care can better accommodate faith based approaches and therapy.

Resources for further medical research are listed on freespiritualhealing | Resources for Healing and Forgiveness Therapy
I believe medical proof is necessary to make these methods accessible to the public, which are already free but are censored by church-state politics and media bias on information.
And that these cures of diseases from cancer to criminal illness will revolutionize the prison, mental health and health care systems to cover public services with resources we already pay in taxes and waste on crime and abuses caused by addictions or diseases that can be prevented and corrected by addressing all factors.

 

[bripat9643]

Today I learned that adding more people on to private insurance plans is now considered socialized medicine.

So did the meaning of socialism change over the weekend and I didn't get an email about it?

Government control is socialism, and Obamacare is 80,000 pages of government control.

....and guess who doesn't understand what Socialism is.

You.

 

[bripat9643]

Which is in turn an admission that you can't list anything

Why would I bother? Your request is absurd. It proves nothing.

And the punt is away!

ROFL! Says the guy who ran away with his tail between his legs.

 

[emilynghiem]

Ok.....and? Which part of that is socialism? Governments make laws. You are aware of that right? Just because you don't like a law, doesn't make it "socialism".

I know the answer to this already, but do you know what socialism means?

And you just showed that the far left propaganda in you is to strong to be broken with facts.

This may help you:

Socialism is an economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy.[1] "Social ownership" may refer to cooperative enterprises, common ownership, state ownership, citizen ownership of equity, or any combination of these.[2] There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them.[3] They differ in the type of social ownership they advocate, the degree to which they rely on markets or planning, how management is to be organised within productive institutions, and the role of the state in constructing socialism.[4]

Socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Great. Now in your own words, which part of what you just quoted applies to our healthcare system? Which part of Obamacare is state ownership, citizen ownership or common ownership?

Dear RDD:
Yes and no. The ACA is forcing a transition stage that is designed to fail, so that it will force companies/citizens to opt to pay for govt services instead of private.

A. The taxpayers are being forced to give money to PRIVATE INSURANCE companies (as opposed to investing directly in medical schools, teaching hospitals, and/or charity or other programs to provide the actual MEDICAL AND HEALTH SERVICES to the public)

So this is worse than govt owned/controlled, because it is govt forcing citizens into a private contract with private businesses UNDER PENALTY OF LAW.
The trick in the wording of the law is that the tax penalty is a tax, where certain people are exempted from it. And the requirement to buy insurance is part of the exemption.

B. The process is to force the public (both companies and citizens) to not be able to afford or compete with the govt option (which doesn't cover the whole population either) in order to FORCE it into govt control with all the funds required to go through there.

So it is headed to more "socialism" where govt would control the funds and resources REQUIRED of citizens to "pay for health care"

and PENALIZE people for funding options and services outside of govt control

That penalty part is already in place with the insurance mandate,
but it is disguised as a tax and only indirectly forcing people to pay money to PRIVATE INSURANCE companies (as opposed to retaining previous freedom to pay for health care through charities or other choices of provisions)

This was designed to be unpoliceable, unfixable and uncheckable by the Constitution because it is a hybrid policy that mixes private and public jurisdiction.

When proponents want to make it mandatory by law, they emphasize some parts to justify it. When they want to say it still allows free choice and isn't govt socialism, they paint it another way. And blame the "free market" for why that part isn't working, since as long as private companies are in charge, that is outside the check of govt.

So you/we could argue day and night if this transition stage is or isn't socialism
and we'd stay caught in the same game! It has elements of both, and if you look
at the whole process, it is stuck somewhere in between. On purpose!

 

[emilynghiem]

Government control is socialism, and Obamacare is 80,000 pages of government control.

....and guess who doesn't understand what Socialism is.

You.

Can we agree that it is a hybrid, not purely socialism but disguised as
a mix of govt control and forcing private citizens and companies into that
control by federal govt while claiming we still have free choice because govt
doesn't TECHNICALLY own the private insurance companies caught in the middle.

In spirit, it is worse than socialism!

My bf came up with a new term for this:
"Obamunism"

Can we agree Obama deliberately mixed the two systems of free market insurance
companies with federal mandates and tax penalties to create this new beast
that is hard to police because it mixes the private and public sector where it is neither and both at the same time?

 

[bripat9643]

Great. Now in your own words, which part of what you just quoted applies to our healthcare system? Which part of Obamacare is state ownership, citizen ownership or common ownership?

Control is what matters. Ownership doesn't mean a thing if the owners don't make the important decisions. Then it's faux ownership.

It must be fun to invent meanings for words.

I invent nothing.

Capitalism means free enterprise, sovereignty of the consumers in economic matters, and sovereignty of the voters in political matters. Socialism means full government control of every sphere of the individuals life and the unrestricted supremacy of the government in its capacity as central board of production management​

- Ludwig von Mises -​

 

[bripat9643]

Ok.....and? Which part of that is socialism? Governments make laws. You are aware of that right? Just because you don't like a law, doesn't make it "socialism".

I know the answer to this already, but do you know what socialism means?

All laws regulating the conduct of business are a step in the direction of socialism. There is no fine line where you can say because of this law we are now socialist. Not unless government nationalizes industry.

Enacting laws does not make a country socialist. Holy fuck how retarded can you possibly be? Don't answer...I don't want to know.

How do you imagine socialism would be imposed if not by law?

 

[bripat9643]

Since this thread was DOA when it claimed Obamacare is socialized medicine, this list is overkill, but here's a list of medical inventions and their country of origin.

Adrenaline (epinephrine): Isolated and used to treat asthma by Jokichi Takamine (Japan)
Artificial heart: Paul Winchell (USA) holds the original patent for an implantable artificial heart. Oddly enough, he was also an accomplished ventriloquist who was the voice of Tigger in Disney’s Winnie the Pooh
Aspirin: Felix Hoffmann (Germany) – he also synthesized heroin
Beta blockers: Sir James Black (UK) made a number of contributions to understanding of cardiology for which he was awarded the Nobel Prize in 1988. Among his inventions was the first of a class of beta blocker drugs which among other things offers cardioprotection after a heart attack and reduce high blood pressure.
Bone marrow compatibility test: Barbara Bain (Canada)
Cardiac pacemaker: The idea for the pacemaker came from J A McWilliam in 1889 (UK). The first external pacemaker was designed and built by John Hopps (Canada). Earl Bakken (USA) developed the first externally wearable pacemaker. The first implantable pacemaker was designed by Rune Elmqvist and Ake Senning (Sweden).
CAT scan: Godfrey Hounsfield (UK), Alban Cormac (USA, born in South Africa)
Clinical trials: Austin Bradford Hill (UK)
Contact lenses: Leonardo Da Vinci (Italy)
Electrocardiogram (ECG or EKG) – Justin Ho (UK). The first portable EKG was developed by Taro Takemi (Japan)
Fetal monitor: K. Hammacher (Germany), Hewlett-Packard Co (USA, Germany)
Heart lung machine: John Heysham Gibbon (USA)
Heart transplant: Christiaan Barnard (South Africa) successfully transplanted the first human heart from one person to another
Helicobacter pylori: Barry Marshall and Robin Warren (Australia) discovered this bacterium which causes stomach ulcers
Hepatitis B vaccine: Baruch Blumberg, Irving Millman (USA)
HIV: Luc Montagnier (France) is credited for discovering HIV as the cause for AIDS
In vitro fertilization: John Rock (USA) extracted the first intact fertilized human egg. Carl Wood (Australia) pioneered the use of frozen embryos. Patrick Steptoe and Robert Edwards (UK) carried out the first successful procedure resulting in the birth of a healthy infant, Louise Brown.
Insulin: Isolated by Frederick Banting, Charles Best, J.J.R. Macleod, James Collip (Canada). They also pioneered the process for using insulin to treat diabetes
Medical ultrasound: Karl Theodore Dussik (Austria), Ian Donald (Scotland)
Nuclear medicine: Taro Tekemi (Japan)
Pasteurization: Developed by Louis Pasteur (France) as a method to kill germs. Pasteur also developed the germ theory of infection
Penicillin: Alexander Fleming (Scotland)
Polio vaccine: Jonas Salk, Albert Sabin (USA)
Smallpox vaccine: Although Edward Jenner (UK) is credited with developing the vaccine, his work was based on an existing innoculation technique brought back from Turkey by Lady Mary Montague. It was Jenner, however, that invented the term “vaccination”
Spray-on-skin: Fiona Wood (Australia) developed this for burn victims
Structure of DNA: Rosalind Franklin (UK), Francis Crick (UK), James Watson (USA)
Surgery: Abu Al-Qasim al-Zahrawi (Andalusia) is considered the father of modern surgery
Tuberculosis vaccine: Albert Calmette, Charles Guerin (France)
Viagra: Ian Osterloh (UK) – OK, not that significant, but interesting
Xray: Wilhelm Konrad Roentgen (Germany)

What a numskull. Most of these innovations/discoveries occure long before any of these nations adopted socialized medicine. When do you imagine the small pox vaccine was invented? Penicillin? the Xray?

You are truly stupid.

Hahaha, shown proof and you punt. How predictable. So your assertion now is that these countries were all under a privatized for-profit healthcare system when these innovations occurred. Is that it?

You only proved that you're an idiot who doesn't know when socialized medicine was adopted in the industrialized world. Here's a hint: it was after the discovery of penicillin and the X-ray and surgery and the polio vaccine and pasteurization and the pace maker and open heart surgery.

 

[RDD_1210]

Why would I bother? Your request is absurd. It proves nothing.

And the punt is away!

ROFL! Says the guy who ran away with his tail between his legs.

I did? I listed out dozens of medical innovations from countries that don't share our healthcare system and you punted like you were standing at the back of your own end zone and couldn't kick the ball away fast enough.

Face it, you're a hack. And not even a good one at that.

 

[bripat9643]

....and guess who doesn't understand what Socialism is.

You.

Can we agree that it is a hybrid, not purely socialism but disguised as
a mix of govt control and forcing private citizens and companies into that
control by federal govt while claiming we still have free choice because govt
doesn't TECHNICALLY own the private insurance companies caught in the middle.

In spirit, it is worse than socialism!

My bf came up with a new term for this:
"Obamunism"

Can we agree Obama deliberately mixed the two systems of free market insurance
companies with federal mandates and tax penalties to create this new beast
that is hard to police because it mixes the private and public sector where it is neither and both at the same time?

Obamacare goes 90% of the way towards socialism. Insurance companies have been reduced to little more than order takers who do the government's bidding.

 

[RDD_1210]

All laws regulating the conduct of business are a step in the direction of socialism. There is no fine line where you can say because of this law we are now socialist. Not unless government nationalizes industry.

Enacting laws does not make a country socialist. Holy fuck how retarded can you possibly be? Don't answer...I don't want to know.

How do you imagine socialism would be imposed if not by law?

So any country that has laws is now Socialist. Got it. I guess every country in the world is socialist according to you.

 

[bripat9643]

And the punt is away!

ROFL! Says the guy who ran away with his tail between his legs.

I did? I listed out dozens of medical innovations from countries that don't share our healthcare system and you punted like you were standing at the back of your own end zone and couldn't kick the ball away fast enough.

Face it, you're a hack. And not even a good one at that.

Almost every one of those innovations was made before the country had socialized medicine. You're too stupid to know when the innovations occurred or what kind of medical system the country had at the time.

So who's the hack?