Leftwing - Rightwing and the Political Axis

[Coyote]

westwall What defines them? I think it's misleading to look at it solely as defined by the absence or presence of government (or state).

Rightwing:
Individual Authority
Individual Liberty
Favoring Hierarchy
Socially Conservative
Nationalism
Anti-taxation
Equal playing field
Pro-Military
Traditional

Leftwing:
Collective Authority
Collective Liberty
Favoring Equality
Socially Liberal
Globalism
Social spending
Equal outcome
Anti-Military
Progressive

You deserve the strawman award!

Try this:

Rightwing:
Authority by the wealthy
Liberty for the wealthy
Mobster Hierarchy
Pretends to be Socially Conservative, privately has no morals whatsoever
Pretends to be Nationalistic, invests globally
Anti-taxation - hey you got one!
Hierarchical society depending on wealth. Outcomes depend on wealth. Anti-equality. Needs to be the 'Big Shot' or they can't get laid.
Obsessively Pro-Military as long as some else's kids are dying
Traditionally no principals at all. Totally pragmatic and narcissistic.

Leftwing:
Collective Authority
Individual Liberty
Believes in Equality
Social individualism
Understands the need for Governments to regulate Globalism
Social spending only as needed. Believes that the private sector has responsibilities.
Equal opportunity
Judicious use of the Military
Progressive - believes in social, economic and intellectual evolution

I get the straw man award? You kind of presented a very one sided view here.

I don't usually defend the right, but consider this.


Mobster Hierarchy - can happen under any ideology

Pretends to be Socially Conservative, privately has no morals whatsoever - WHO exactly? All conservatives? Seriously? Many I know, privately have strong morals - this is not an ideological thing, it's an individual thing.


Pretends to be Nationalistic, invests globally - kind of both sides do that in practice...the Military Industrial Complex

Hierarchical society depending on wealth. Outcomes depend on wealth. Anti-equality. Needs to be the 'Big Shot' or they can't get laid. I agree - wealth confers power. Getting laid? Hell, the wealthy on all sides get laid.


Obsessively Pro-Military as long as some else's kids are dying - while true of some individuals, that one is unfair. The military is largely considered to be conservative and vote rightwing, many families have generations of military members in their ranks, and there are many veterans in political positions among the right - all of whom risked death or sent kids to fight.


Traditionally no principals at all. Totally pragmatic and narcissistic. - that one is bipartisan.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Unless you go into politics or get a Govt job

Oh horseshit, come on you are better than this. are you really going to claim that the only way to better yourself in this country is to get a Govt job?

I thought we were talking about Communist regimes?

Seems the topic of the thread is politics in the US

By left wing I thought he meant Communists. My bad.

maybe I am wrong, I thought he was talking about the left wing in the US

My bad

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

This thread is interesting and disturbing. People are people. I for one am a capitalist first and foremost. I don’t care if people are gay or straight but I dont want people telling what pronoun I may or may not use. What is disturbing is that we vilify those we disagree with and mostly from the Left. Calling people who dare disagree with them “racist, sexist, homophobes and Islamaphobes” when in reality we just disagree.

I further disagree that speech is violence. I am pro choice but understand the pro life argument. I think the 2nd amendment is outdated but understand why it is critical to many. I am Pro Israel and believe we are dangerously alienating ourselves from the only truly westernized nation in the Middle East. I don’t agree that people may change their genders and that there are more than two. I think the military is critical to prevent conflict not to just engage but also for innovation.

The reason that we are at such odds is because all we do and I at times am guilty of it, is label each other and vilify one another when we disagree.

Lastly, we have become way too PC. It is incredibly frustrating.

I kind of agree except I think you ignore the vilifying from the right - I see it all the time since I am on the left. For example - I disagree with Trump policies and I'm accused of Trump Derangement, or being a sore loser. How is that any different? I disagree with views on Muslims and I am called terrorist supporter and antisemite. How is that any different? Calling names ends discussion (and I am guilty of getting pissed off and doing that) - but it's hardly a one way street.

What is disturbing and different now is - we can't seem to disagree. People with whom we now disagree with don't just have a different viewpoint - they become enemies, traitors, evil, etc. That is new and disturbing to me.

That is true. We are at a point where disagreement begins and ends with extreme anger. Hell, I am guilty of it myself.

 

[westwall]

Does anyone find it odd that so many people claim to be fiscally conservative yet we have not elected a fiscally Conservative president since Calvin Coolidge and we have 22 trillion dollars in national debt?

You neglect to mention that the respective political party's never give we the people that option.

That is one thing the 2016 election exposed for all to see.

We don't get to choose the candidates. The political elite trot out their two chosen ones and we get to choose the lesser of the two evils.


We are still choosing evil.

 

[westwall]

The difference between leftwing and rightwing in this context is rightwing is mobile. You can start at the bottom and reach the top, while those at the top can fall to the bottom. leftwing is regimented. Whatever level you were born into, you stay. There is no way to break into the upper echelons of power, or society. They are closed.

Perhaps that is why we have one of the worst social mobility rate among industrialized nations

Ours is one of the best. However, if the progressive left get more power this country will be over as a experiment in freedom.

 

[westwall]

westwall What defines them? I think it's misleading to look at it solely as defined by the absence or presence of government (or state).

Rightwing:
Individual Authority
Individual Liberty
Favoring Hierarchy
Socially Conservative
Nationalism
Anti-taxation
Equal playing field
Pro-Military
Traditional

Leftwing:
Collective Authority
Collective Liberty
Favoring Equality
Socially Liberal
Globalism
Social spending
Equal outcome
Anti-Military
Progressive

RIGHTWING
Individual Authority. Correct. The individual takes precedence over the collective.

Individual Liberty. Correct, the individual is free to do what they want, with who they want, when they want.

Rightwing doesn't favor hierarchy, it accepts that there needs to be some form of it, but begrudgingly.

Socially conservative is not rightwing, it is leftwing.

Nationalism is ultimately leftwing. Look at the way collectivist governments refer to their countries. Nazis called Germany the Fatherland, communists called Russia the Motherland. The ultimate form of rightwing is anarchy. There can be no nationalism when there is no nation.

Anti Taxation, yup. To a point.

Equal Playing Field, absolutely.

Pro-military, yes, but so are leftwing groups. After all, you need a strong military to subjugate your citizens. The difference is in a rightwing government military service is normally voluntary, in a leftwing government it is mandatory.

Traditional, true, for a leftwing government to survive it must first destroy the traditions that came before it so they can replace those traditions with their own.

I disagree - social conservatism and traditional values are absolutely rightwing, not left.

Nationalism is also rightwing vs. leftwing globalism (or internationalism).

It doesn't mean there isn't cross over - for example rightwing Nazi's and leftwing Stalinists employed many of the same tactics, so if you view it as not just economic left/right axis, but also social left/right and authority/less authority the extreme right (Nazi) and extreme left (Stalinist) authoritarian regimes are very similar.

Rightwing governments typically have mandatory military service but also typically glorify the military.

Define socially conservative.

Nationalism is leftwing. Globalism is merely a group of leftwing countries deciding to control everything, and everybody.

If they use the same tactics, they ARE the same. Your pointing out that Nazis were slightly less totalitarian than Stalinists only shows that they were still totalitarian, just a little nicer to the people they liked. But only a little.

Leftwing governments ALWAYS glorify the military.

First - define social conservative. Essentially, protecting the status quo. Protecting traditional culture, and what is accepted as traditional evolves. Liberals (leftists) push the social envelope, expanding what is defined as "us" - sometimes beyond what society can tolerate, but they push. Liberalism is increasing inclusiveness...Conservatism is protecting social exclusivism, protecting the more narrow definition of us. Social conservatism is what opposes homosexual rights and marriage for example, or the a more liberal and equal role for women, or a woman's rights to determine her own sexual agenda. Social conservatism carefully defines roles for men and women, respects authority and religion, traditional marriage and role models for children. Social conservatism is not necessarily bring me a sammich because the status quo that is being preserved as adopted a broader role for women in some respects. At least in the US. That's how I see it - this is my opinion only, but it's based on an interesting read I found:
The fundamentalist agenda

Definitions are definitions - we don't get to make up our own. Nationalism and Globalism (or Internationalism) have meanings and one entity can't really be both. I might be wrongly conflating Internationalism and Globalism, if so, I stand corrected.

Internationalism (associated with the left):
the principle of cooperation among nations, for the promotion of their common good, sometimesas contrasted with nationalism, or devotion to the interests of a particular nation.

Nationalism (associated with the right):
identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations.

Totalitarianism is not the pervue of only one ideology - left and right can both end in a totalitarian regime.

Leftism does not always end up in totalitarianism....if the right emphasizes the authority of the individual, and the left emphasizes the authority of the collective, then democracy itself, a collective endeavor is pretty leftist.

Leftist countries such as much of Europe are hardly totalitarian.

Once again, how can you have right wing and left wing totalitarianism? Totalitarianism is the ultimate form of collective government.

 

[westwall]

westwall What defines them? I think it's misleading to look at it solely as defined by the absence or presence of government (or state).

Rightwing:
Individual Authority
Individual Liberty
Favoring Hierarchy
Socially Conservative
Nationalism
Anti-taxation
Equal playing field
Pro-Military
Traditional

Leftwing:
Collective Authority
Collective Liberty
Favoring Equality
Socially Liberal
Globalism
Social spending
Equal outcome
Anti-Military
Progressive

I am a social Liberal to a point where I believe you should enjoy life that does not harm another person especially children and the elderly...

I am a fiscal Conservative because I do not want to pay for your bad choices in life...

I do not believe military intervention will solve most arguments and should be the very last choice but too often is the first or second choice...

So where the hell do I fall on that list?

I think most people are a mix - I am socially liberal, but more in the middle fiscally.

As am I. I am a Classical Liberal. Whatever you want to do, with whomever you want to do it with is okay with me. Your Rights stop at my nose. I am however a little more socialist in terms of energy policy.

I always figured you to be socially liberal, and pretty much libertarian - is that accurate?

I am very socially liberal. I am not really libertarian though. That's flacaltenn. Like I said, when it comes to energy production in the US I would nationalize it and that would be how government would fund itself.

That way the wealthy would pay more for their energy so that the poor would pay nothing. The corporations would pay more for their energy as well depending on how polluting their products were.

 

[westwall]

I disagree - social conservatism and traditional values are absolutely rightwing, not left.

Nationalism is also rightwing vs. leftwing globalism (or internationalism).

It doesn't mean there isn't cross over - for example rightwing Nazi's and leftwing Stalinists employed many of the same tactics, so if you view it as not just economic left/right axis, but also social left/right and authority/less authority the extreme right (Nazi) and extreme left (Stalinist) authoritarian regimes are very similar.

Rightwing governments typically have mandatory military service but also typically glorify the military.

Your pointing out that Nazis were slightly less totalitarian than Stalinists only shows that they were still totalitarian, just a little nicer to the people they liked. But only a little.

Leftwing governments ALWAYS glorify the military.

Stalin was far-Right, just like Hitler was.

Stalin was very Nationalistic, and socially Conservative, by today's Western standards, especially.

He criminalized Gays, outlawed Abortion, targeted enemies of the state. etc. etc.

He was the ultimate cult of personality and banned religion. He was real “conservative”. LOL

You’re unemployed. Read a book.

Stalin was definitely more Right-Wing than Left-Wing.

Banning religion, and being against Capitalist hierarchy may have been the ONLY things Left-Wing about Stalin.

Ultimately he was on the Authoritarian Right-Wing,.
Stalin was a social-Conservative banning Abortion, and criminalizing Gays, and banning new forms of Music.

Stalin was a Nationalist in that Russians were the master race, targeted enemies of the state, supported Autarky, where everybody used Russian products only.

The problem is with creatures like Stalin and Hitler, their ideology really crossed political spectrums - it's hard to define them as just left or right, they are all over the place and in a category of their own. That's the issue with just a left right axis.

They were both leftwing. Hitler is reported many times telling his underlings that the communists were their natural allies against the capitalists.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Does anyone find it odd that so many people claim to be fiscally conservative yet we have not elected a fiscally Conservative president since Calvin Coolidge and we have 22 trillion dollars in national debt?

You neglect to mention that the respective political party's never give we the people that option.

That is one thing the 2016 election exposed for all to see.

We don't get to choose the candidates. The political elite trot out their two chosen ones and we get to choose the lesser of the two evils.


We are still choosing evil.

You know, there are more than two choices, if only people would take them

 

[Harpy Eagle]

The difference between leftwing and rightwing in this context is rightwing is mobile. You can start at the bottom and reach the top, while those at the top can fall to the bottom. leftwing is regimented. Whatever level you were born into, you stay. There is no way to break into the upper echelons of power, or society. They are closed.

Perhaps that is why we have one of the worst social mobility rate among industrialized nations

Ours is one of the best. However, if the progressive left get more power this country will be over as a experiment in freedom.

In the US, social mobility rate among the worst of all industrialized nations

 

[Norman]

The difference between leftwing and rightwing in this context is rightwing is mobile. You can start at the bottom and reach the top, while those at the top can fall to the bottom. leftwing is regimented. Whatever level you were born into, you stay. There is no way to break into the upper echelons of power, or society. They are closed.

Perhaps that is why we have one of the worst social mobility rate among industrialized nations

Ours is one of the best. However, if the progressive left get more power this country will be over as a experiment in freedom.

In the US, social mobility rate among the worst of all industrialized nations

Absolute bullshit. In Europe it's still the same family lines having the wealth as 200 years ago. In USA those people are washing dishes.

Golfing Gator, if you hate your country, you can fuck off. No one is making you stay. It's probably true that the more socialist countries work better for losers like yourself.

 

[impuretrash]

westwall What defines them? I think it's misleading to look at it solely as defined by the absence or presence of government (or state).

Rightwing:
Individual Authority
Individual Liberty
Favoring Hierarchy
Socially Conservative
Nationalism
Anti-taxation
Equal playing field
Pro-Military
Traditional

Leftwing:
Collective Authority
Collective Liberty
Favoring Equality
Socially Liberal
Globalism
Social spending
Equal outcome
Anti-Military
Progressive

Coyote's post is trying (and failing) to be fair to the right and is definitely too kind to the left. Only Sobi's comments on this thread are correct, the rest of you are wrong.

The right is order.
The left is chaos.

Free market capitalism is not right wing by any stretch of the imagination. It's too chaotic. It opens the door to materialism, globalism and moral degeneracy - the absolute antithesis of what right wing politics is all about.

 

[Marion Morrison]

The difference between leftwing and rightwing in this context is rightwing is mobile. You can start at the bottom and reach the top, while those at the top can fall to the bottom. leftwing is regimented. Whatever level you were born into, you stay. There is no way to break into the upper echelons of power, or society. They are closed.

Perhaps that is why we have one of the worst social mobility rate among industrialized nations

Ours is one of the best. However, if the progressive left get more power this country will be over as a experiment in freedom.

In the US, social mobility rate among the worst of all industrialized nations

Bullshit!

You should go watch "The Jerk".

 

[Harpy Eagle]

The difference between leftwing and rightwing in this context is rightwing is mobile. You can start at the bottom and reach the top, while those at the top can fall to the bottom. leftwing is regimented. Whatever level you were born into, you stay. There is no way to break into the upper echelons of power, or society. They are closed.

Perhaps that is why we have one of the worst social mobility rate among industrialized nations

Ours is one of the best. However, if the progressive left get more power this country will be over as a experiment in freedom.

In the US, social mobility rate among the worst of all industrialized nations

Bullshit!

You should go watch "The Jerk".

I watch the jerk every time I read one of your post.

Perhaps you should not use a fictional movie for your basis for reality.

http://www.equality-of-opportunity.org/assets/documents/abs_mobility_summary.pdf

The U.S. Does Poorly On Yet Another Metric of Economic Mobility

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

The difference between leftwing and rightwing in this context is rightwing is mobile. You can start at the bottom and reach the top, while those at the top can fall to the bottom. leftwing is regimented. Whatever level you were born into, you stay. There is no way to break into the upper echelons of power, or society. They are closed.

Perhaps that is why we have one of the worst social mobility rate among industrialized nations

Ours is one of the best. However, if the progressive left get more power this country will be over as a experiment in freedom.

In the US, social mobility rate among the worst of all industrialized nations

??? What’s the best?

 

[Harpy Eagle]

The difference between leftwing and rightwing in this context is rightwing is mobile. You can start at the bottom and reach the top, while those at the top can fall to the bottom. leftwing is regimented. Whatever level you were born into, you stay. There is no way to break into the upper echelons of power, or society. They are closed.

Perhaps that is why we have one of the worst social mobility rate among industrialized nations

Ours is one of the best. However, if the progressive left get more power this country will be over as a experiment in freedom.

In the US, social mobility rate among the worst of all industrialized nations

??? What’s the best?

U.S. lags behind peer countries in mobility

http://www.equality-of-opportunity.org/assets/documents/abs_mobility_summary.pdf

The U.S. Does Poorly On Yet Another Metric of Economic Mobility

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

The difference between leftwing and rightwing in this context is rightwing is mobile. You can start at the bottom and reach the top, while those at the top can fall to the bottom. leftwing is regimented. Whatever level you were born into, you stay. There is no way to break into the upper echelons of power, or society. They are closed.

Perhaps that is why we have one of the worst social mobility rate among industrialized nations

Ours is one of the best. However, if the progressive left get more power this country will be over as a experiment in freedom.

In the US, social mobility rate among the worst of all industrialized nations

??? What’s the best?

U.S. lags behind peer countries in mobility
View attachment 259767

http://www.equality-of-opportunity.org/assets/documents/abs_mobility_summary.pdf

The U.S. Does Poorly On Yet Another Metric of Economic Mobility

So would you rather live in Slovenia or Chile? Come on man.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

Perhaps that is why we have one of the worst social mobility rate among industrialized nations

Ours is one of the best. However, if the progressive left get more power this country will be over as a experiment in freedom.

In the US, social mobility rate among the worst of all industrialized nations

??? What’s the best?

U.S. lags behind peer countries in mobility
View attachment 259767

http://www.equality-of-opportunity.org/assets/documents/abs_mobility_summary.pdf

The U.S. Does Poorly On Yet Another Metric of Economic Mobility

So would you rather live in Slovenia or Chile? Come on man.

Those are two countries worse than the US.

I love the US and I have done very well and moved from lower middle class to top 10%. But I do not go by anecdotal evidence, but by statistics and facts. Moving up in this country is hard, while a few do it, the vast majority never will. I am going out of my way to ensure my children will have a leg up, but I can only do that because of where my wife and I have gotten ourselves to.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Ours is one of the best. However, if the progressive left get more power this country will be over as a experiment in freedom.

In the US, social mobility rate among the worst of all industrialized nations

??? What’s the best?

U.S. lags behind peer countries in mobility
View attachment 259767

http://www.equality-of-opportunity.org/assets/documents/abs_mobility_summary.pdf

The U.S. Does Poorly On Yet Another Metric of Economic Mobility

So would you rather live in Slovenia or Chile? Come on man.

Those are two countries worse than the US.

I love the US and I have done very well and moved from lower middle class to top 10%. But I do not go by anecdotal evidence, but by statistics and facts. Moving up in this country is hard, while a few do it, the vast majority never will. I am going out of my way to ensure my children will have a leg up, but I can only do that because of where my wife and I have gotten ourselves to.

Opportunity is here but many lack the desire IMO. I
am a child of immigrants. I have done OK.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

In the US, social mobility rate among the worst of all industrialized nations

??? What’s the best?

U.S. lags behind peer countries in mobility
View attachment 259767

http://www.equality-of-opportunity.org/assets/documents/abs_mobility_summary.pdf

The U.S. Does Poorly On Yet Another Metric of Economic Mobility

So would you rather live in Slovenia or Chile? Come on man.

Those are two countries worse than the US.

I love the US and I have done very well and moved from lower middle class to top 10%. But I do not go by anecdotal evidence, but by statistics and facts. Moving up in this country is hard, while a few do it, the vast majority never will. I am going out of my way to ensure my children will have a leg up, but I can only do that because of where my wife and I have gotten ourselves to.

Opportunity is here but many lack the desire IMO. I
am a child of immigrants. I have done OK.

Opportunity is here, but not to the extent many tell themselves it is.

Americans overestimate social mobility in their country