let's help enact Governor Cuomo's proposal for free college in New York!

[Maryland Patriot]

One state I am damn glad I don't live in.

why, I hate giving free shit away to anyone but I see a really huge benefit to society by doing this.
I would say give them an associates for free, a general degree, no specialty involved, base the degree on getting out of the way all of the courses that would be common among most specialty degrees, the Math's Sciences, history etc... after that if the student wants to move on and pursue a specific area of study, then its on them, the would have been given all of the basic courses for free and would have an advantage of thousands of dollars saved.
The benefit is that society ends up with a population that is better equipped to achieve those specific degrees like engineering, or medical, business etc...
The better educated society is, the less we have to depend on others, the less we depend on others the better position we are in to be leaders in the world.
Unlike life long generational welfare or free health care, this is money well spent and I think worth every cent of tax that I have to cough up to cover it. In the end, it benefits me.

 

[Indeependent]

Don't fret, there is a movement by corporate sponsors of US Universities to allow US colleges to accept an unlimited number of foreign students.
More cheap labor at the tax payer's expense.

The H-1B Quagmire: Colleges and Universities Develop Programs to Combat H-1B Gridlock

No.

Clearly, you've had NOTHING to do with the post-manufacturing world of high tech, information, and innovation where smart college graduates are a requirement.

This IS the arena where we are competing with other nations as automation and rapidly advancing international competitors are solving the manufacturing problem while hiring fewer and fewer humans.

In this world, the required natural resource is brains. And, we only have 5% of the world's brains.

Demanding that we limit the one absolutely required natural resource is the most stupid thing we could POSSIBLY do.

With every other natural resource we require, we work to develop that resource locally and we work to import that resource from wherever we can find it.

Shooting ourselves in the brains is EXACTLY how to ensure we lose.

99% of our Business Visas come from India.
If they were such geniuses, they would develop their own country.

I don't know what you're trying to say here.

Cheap labor.
Since Trump is going to fix the Business Visas abuse, the Corporate Sponsors of universities are working on ways to inundate American colleges with the cheap labor of tomorrow and at the same time close out anyone from attending college.

 

[WillReadmore]

One state I am damn glad I don't live in.

why, I hate giving free shit away to anyone but I see a really huge benefit to society by doing this.
I would say give them an associates for free, a general degree, no specialty involved, base the degree on getting out of the way all of the courses that would be common among most specialty degrees, the Math's Sciences, history etc... after that if the student wants to move on and pursue a specific area of study, then its on them, the would have been given all of the basic courses for free and would have an advantage of thousands of dollars saved.
The benefit is that society ends up with a population that is better equipped to achieve those specific degrees like engineering, or medical, business etc...
The better educated society is, the less we have to depend on others, the less we depend on others the better position we are in to be leaders in the world.
Unlike life long generational welfare or free health care, this is money well spent and I think worth every cent of tax that I have to cough up to cover it. In the end, it benefits me.

Obama and Clinton both talked about this direction.

They presented it as ensuring financial support for a 2 year degree - the approximate time required for distribution credits by all degrees, plus a start toward something more in depth - recognizing that in most significant colleges and universities you have to have 4 full years of a specific science to graduate with a major in that science.

Also, manufacturing workers and others demonstrate that we need to have continuing education for those in these areas. Without that, we managed to leave behind large numbers of manufacturing workers as high tech and automation replaced them - right while they were working their asses off!

 

[FA_Q2]

...We could offer scholarships to students who excel in science and engineering while refusing to fund the administrative bloat and politically correct preening often found at universities. Is this sort of thing enhancing our GNP?...

Life is more than the GNP.

Pursuit of the Arts on the university level is also a worthwhile ambition, however...

For every artist of one kind or another, we need a hundred graduates with 'practical' skills (the sciences, business, administration, etc.)...

There IS some demonstrable need to begin scaling-back (not eliminating) the Arts at the university level in favor of practical skills...

Trouble is, Conservatives would rather turn a blow-torch on anything not practical, and crank-out nothing but business and research drones...

There's got to be a Middle Ground in this sort of thing...

Sure there is. This thread is on governmental support for college attendance though and therein lies the middle ground. you can pay for whatever college courses that you so desire. The government should not be getting in the business if supporting people though college arts. If they are going to provide assistance it should be for practical employable reasons and for people that have the aptitude but not the means.

 

[WillReadmore]

Don't fret, there is a movement by corporate sponsors of US Universities to allow US colleges to accept an unlimited number of foreign students.
More cheap labor at the tax payer's expense.

The H-1B Quagmire: Colleges and Universities Develop Programs to Combat H-1B Gridlock

No.

Clearly, you've had NOTHING to do with the post-manufacturing world of high tech, information, and innovation where smart college graduates are a requirement.

This IS the arena where we are competing with other nations as automation and rapidly advancing international competitors are solving the manufacturing problem while hiring fewer and fewer humans.

In this world, the required natural resource is brains. And, we only have 5% of the world's brains.

Demanding that we limit the one absolutely required natural resource is the most stupid thing we could POSSIBLY do.

With every other natural resource we require, we work to develop that resource locally and we work to import that resource from wherever we can find it.

Shooting ourselves in the brains is EXACTLY how to ensure we lose.

99% of our Business Visas come from India.
If they were such geniuses, they would develop their own country.

I don't know what you're trying to say here.

Cheap labor.
Since Trump is going to fix the Business Visas abuse, the Corporate Sponsors of universities are working on ways to inundate American colleges with the cheap labor of tomorrow and at the same time close out anyone from attending college.

No, this is about needing highly educated employees in order to be able to bring new high tech products to market.

In my career, technical experts in my group ALL spent time flying to universities in search of people who could help us. Whether those people came from the US or some foreign country makes no difference in compensation. And, there is NO CHANCE that we could have ever found all the people we need.

The main economic issue here is that there are plenty of high tech corporations that are SLOWED by not being able to find enough highly educated and smart employees.

I think you are choosing to think about hiring field labor to pick strawberries, or whatever. But, that isn't what's going on in high tech.

 

[WillReadmore]

...We could offer scholarships to students who excel in science and engineering while refusing to fund the administrative bloat and politically correct preening often found at universities. Is this sort of thing enhancing our GNP?...

Life is more than the GNP.

Pursuit of the Arts on the university level is also a worthwhile ambition, however...

For every artist of one kind or another, we need a hundred graduates with 'practical' skills (the sciences, business, administration, etc.)...

There IS some demonstrable need to begin scaling-back (not eliminating) the Arts at the university level in favor of practical skills...

Trouble is, Conservatives would rather turn a blow-torch on anything not practical, and crank-out nothing but business and research drones...

There's got to be a Middle Ground in this sort of thing...

Sure there is. This thread is on governmental support for college attendance though and therein lies the middle ground. you can pay for whatever college courses that you so desire. The government should not be getting in the business if supporting people though college arts. If they are going to provide assistance it should be for practical employable reasons and for people that have the aptitude but not the means.

No, we need people with all kinds of education. All high tech products require insightful analysis of need, accurate and informative communication both within corporations and with customers, well designed human interfaces, understanding of legal issues, understanding of the professions of those intended to use the product (such as how hospitals work, how automated manufacturing works), there needs to be wise management that understands people, economics, business, etc.


That isn't taught in computer science, physics, chemistry, or any of the other pure science disciplines.

Every successful team has a range of these skills - even when there is root technology that requires serious depth in some science or engineering related field.

We need liberal arts education, including humanities. In fact, we need engineers who have more exposure to humanities. I'm so tired of talking to computer science "experts" who are too boring, self absorbed and ignorant to even talk to.

 

[Indeependent]

Don't fret, there is a movement by corporate sponsors of US Universities to allow US colleges to accept an unlimited number of foreign students.
More cheap labor at the tax payer's expense.

The H-1B Quagmire: Colleges and Universities Develop Programs to Combat H-1B Gridlock

No.

Clearly, you've had NOTHING to do with the post-manufacturing world of high tech, information, and innovation where smart college graduates are a requirement.

This IS the arena where we are competing with other nations as automation and rapidly advancing international competitors are solving the manufacturing problem while hiring fewer and fewer humans.

In this world, the required natural resource is brains. And, we only have 5% of the world's brains.

Demanding that we limit the one absolutely required natural resource is the most stupid thing we could POSSIBLY do.

With every other natural resource we require, we work to develop that resource locally and we work to import that resource from wherever we can find it.

Shooting ourselves in the brains is EXACTLY how to ensure we lose.

99% of our Business Visas come from India.
If they were such geniuses, they would develop their own country.

I don't know what you're trying to say here.

Cheap labor.
Since Trump is going to fix the Business Visas abuse, the Corporate Sponsors of universities are working on ways to inundate American colleges with the cheap labor of tomorrow and at the same time close out anyone from attending college.

No, this is about needing highly educated employees in order to be able to bring new high tech products to market.

In my career, technical experts in my group ALL spent time flying to universities in search of people who could help us. Whether those people came from the US or some foreign country makes no difference in compensation. And, there is NO CHANCE that we could have ever found all the people we need.

The main economic issue here is that there are plenty of high tech corporations that are SLOWED by not being able to find enough highly educated and smart employees.

I think you are choosing to think about hiring field labor to pick strawberries, or whatever. But, that isn't what's going on in high tech.

I'm referring to financial institutions and software firms like IBM and MS who hire the cheapest coders so they can boost their stock value.

 

[WillReadmore]

No.

Clearly, you've had NOTHING to do with the post-manufacturing world of high tech, information, and innovation where smart college graduates are a requirement.

This IS the arena where we are competing with other nations as automation and rapidly advancing international competitors are solving the manufacturing problem while hiring fewer and fewer humans.

In this world, the required natural resource is brains. And, we only have 5% of the world's brains.

Demanding that we limit the one absolutely required natural resource is the most stupid thing we could POSSIBLY do.

With every other natural resource we require, we work to develop that resource locally and we work to import that resource from wherever we can find it.

Shooting ourselves in the brains is EXACTLY how to ensure we lose.

99% of our Business Visas come from India.
If they were such geniuses, they would develop their own country.

I don't know what you're trying to say here.

Cheap labor.
Since Trump is going to fix the Business Visas abuse, the Corporate Sponsors of universities are working on ways to inundate American colleges with the cheap labor of tomorrow and at the same time close out anyone from attending college.

No, this is about needing highly educated employees in order to be able to bring new high tech products to market.

In my career, technical experts in my group ALL spent time flying to universities in search of people who could help us. Whether those people came from the US or some foreign country makes no difference in compensation. And, there is NO CHANCE that we could have ever found all the people we need.

The main economic issue here is that there are plenty of high tech corporations that are SLOWED by not being able to find enough highly educated and smart employees.

I think you are choosing to think about hiring field labor to pick strawberries, or whatever. But, that isn't what's going on in high tech.

I'm referring to financial institutions and software firms like IBM and MS who hire the cheapest coders so they can boost their stock value.

No, you're wrong about MS. I don't know IBM.

MS will hire all the top CS grads they can get their hands on. They do have to pass a grueling technical interview process, but there is NO differentiation of ANY KIND concerning where they came from during that interview process. And, the salary structure is set based on competition with other corporations. There just isn't any mechanism by which someone could hold the same job, but get paid less based on immigration status, country of origin, or whatever else.

I know there was that case of them hiring part timers and basically using them full time. But, that didn't have to do with foreign employees. It had to do with MS always needing more work hours and thus had managers with no legal training and high motivation to keep everyone working - regardless of legal constraints.

 

[Indeependent]

99% of our Business Visas come from India.
If they were such geniuses, they would develop their own country.

I don't know what you're trying to say here.

Cheap labor.
Since Trump is going to fix the Business Visas abuse, the Corporate Sponsors of universities are working on ways to inundate American colleges with the cheap labor of tomorrow and at the same time close out anyone from attending college.

No, this is about needing highly educated employees in order to be able to bring new high tech products to market.

In my career, technical experts in my group ALL spent time flying to universities in search of people who could help us. Whether those people came from the US or some foreign country makes no difference in compensation. And, there is NO CHANCE that we could have ever found all the people we need.

The main economic issue here is that there are plenty of high tech corporations that are SLOWED by not being able to find enough highly educated and smart employees.

I think you are choosing to think about hiring field labor to pick strawberries, or whatever. But, that isn't what's going on in high tech.

I'm referring to financial institutions and software firms like IBM and MS who hire the cheapest coders so they can boost their stock value.

No, you're wrong about MS. I don't know IBM.

MS will hire all the top CS grads they can get their hands on. They do have to pass a grueling technical interview process, but there is NO differentiation of ANY KIND concerning where they came from during that interview process. And, the salary structure is set based on competition with other corporations. There just isn't any mechanism by which someone could hold the same job, but get paid less based on immigration status, country of origin, or whatever else.

I know there was that case of them hiring part timers and basically using them full time. But, that didn't have to do with foreign employees. It had to do with MS always needing more work hours and thus had managers with no legal training and high motivation to keep everyone working - regardless of legal constraints.

Then why have their products been so mediocre since 1998?
You see, as a software developer who has been forced to work with Indian Business Visas I find I can't trust your judgement on what you consider the best.
For example, I am impressed by Apple and Google and completely unimpressed by MS, IBM and Oracle.
The MS, IBM and Oracle workforce is way over 95% Indian Business Visas.
Heck, even The Wall Street Journal admits such.

 

[WillReadmore]

I don't know what you're trying to say here.

Cheap labor.
Since Trump is going to fix the Business Visas abuse, the Corporate Sponsors of universities are working on ways to inundate American colleges with the cheap labor of tomorrow and at the same time close out anyone from attending college.

No, this is about needing highly educated employees in order to be able to bring new high tech products to market.

In my career, technical experts in my group ALL spent time flying to universities in search of people who could help us. Whether those people came from the US or some foreign country makes no difference in compensation. And, there is NO CHANCE that we could have ever found all the people we need.

The main economic issue here is that there are plenty of high tech corporations that are SLOWED by not being able to find enough highly educated and smart employees.

I think you are choosing to think about hiring field labor to pick strawberries, or whatever. But, that isn't what's going on in high tech.

I'm referring to financial institutions and software firms like IBM and MS who hire the cheapest coders so they can boost their stock value.

No, you're wrong about MS. I don't know IBM.

MS will hire all the top CS grads they can get their hands on. They do have to pass a grueling technical interview process, but there is NO differentiation of ANY KIND concerning where they came from during that interview process. And, the salary structure is set based on competition with other corporations. There just isn't any mechanism by which someone could hold the same job, but get paid less based on immigration status, country of origin, or whatever else.

I know there was that case of them hiring part timers and basically using them full time. But, that didn't have to do with foreign employees. It had to do with MS always needing more work hours and thus had managers with no legal training and high motivation to keep everyone working - regardless of legal constraints.

Then why have their products been so mediocre since 1998?
You see, as a software developer who has been forced to work with Indian Business Visas I find I can't trust your judgement on what you consider the best.
For example, I am impressed by Apple and Google and completely unimpressed by MS, IBM and Oracle.
The MS, IBM and Oracle workforce is way over 95% Indian Business Visas.
Heck, even The Wall Street Journal admits such.

MS, IBM and Oracle address issues that are quite different from those of the general public and their desire to play, their general technical inability, their acceptance of close systems rather than the absolute requirement for openness, etc.

And, trying to pin your charge on these companies is absolutely absurd.

 

[Indeependent]

Cheap labor.
Since Trump is going to fix the Business Visas abuse, the Corporate Sponsors of universities are working on ways to inundate American colleges with the cheap labor of tomorrow and at the same time close out anyone from attending college.

No, this is about needing highly educated employees in order to be able to bring new high tech products to market.

In my career, technical experts in my group ALL spent time flying to universities in search of people who could help us. Whether those people came from the US or some foreign country makes no difference in compensation. And, there is NO CHANCE that we could have ever found all the people we need.

The main economic issue here is that there are plenty of high tech corporations that are SLOWED by not being able to find enough highly educated and smart employees.

I think you are choosing to think about hiring field labor to pick strawberries, or whatever. But, that isn't what's going on in high tech.

I'm referring to financial institutions and software firms like IBM and MS who hire the cheapest coders so they can boost their stock value.

No, you're wrong about MS. I don't know IBM.

MS will hire all the top CS grads they can get their hands on. They do have to pass a grueling technical interview process, but there is NO differentiation of ANY KIND concerning where they came from during that interview process. And, the salary structure is set based on competition with other corporations. There just isn't any mechanism by which someone could hold the same job, but get paid less based on immigration status, country of origin, or whatever else.

I know there was that case of them hiring part timers and basically using them full time. But, that didn't have to do with foreign employees. It had to do with MS always needing more work hours and thus had managers with no legal training and high motivation to keep everyone working - regardless of legal constraints.

Then why have their products been so mediocre since 1998?
You see, as a software developer who has been forced to work with Indian Business Visas I find I can't trust your judgement on what you consider the best.
For example, I am impressed by Apple and Google and completely unimpressed by MS, IBM and Oracle.
The MS, IBM and Oracle workforce is way over 95% Indian Business Visas.
Heck, even The Wall Street Journal admits such.

MS, IBM and Oracle address issues that are quite different from those of the general public and their desire to play, their general technical inability, their acceptance of close systems rather than the absolute requirement for openness, etc.

And, trying to pin your charge on these companies is absolutely absurd.

As I am in the field for over 30 years, I have followed their endeavors since the early 80s.
They have each failed to enter the world of Open Architecture because they went H1-B crazy and H1-Bs rarely have the skills to accomplish anything.

 

[WillReadmore]

No, this is about needing highly educated employees in order to be able to bring new high tech products to market.

In my career, technical experts in my group ALL spent time flying to universities in search of people who could help us. Whether those people came from the US or some foreign country makes no difference in compensation. And, there is NO CHANCE that we could have ever found all the people we need.

The main economic issue here is that there are plenty of high tech corporations that are SLOWED by not being able to find enough highly educated and smart employees.

I think you are choosing to think about hiring field labor to pick strawberries, or whatever. But, that isn't what's going on in high tech.

I'm referring to financial institutions and software firms like IBM and MS who hire the cheapest coders so they can boost their stock value.

No, you're wrong about MS. I don't know IBM.

MS will hire all the top CS grads they can get their hands on. They do have to pass a grueling technical interview process, but there is NO differentiation of ANY KIND concerning where they came from during that interview process. And, the salary structure is set based on competition with other corporations. There just isn't any mechanism by which someone could hold the same job, but get paid less based on immigration status, country of origin, or whatever else.

I know there was that case of them hiring part timers and basically using them full time. But, that didn't have to do with foreign employees. It had to do with MS always needing more work hours and thus had managers with no legal training and high motivation to keep everyone working - regardless of legal constraints.

Then why have their products been so mediocre since 1998?
You see, as a software developer who has been forced to work with Indian Business Visas I find I can't trust your judgement on what you consider the best.
For example, I am impressed by Apple and Google and completely unimpressed by MS, IBM and Oracle.
The MS, IBM and Oracle workforce is way over 95% Indian Business Visas.
Heck, even The Wall Street Journal admits such.

MS, IBM and Oracle address issues that are quite different from those of the general public and their desire to play, their general technical inability, their acceptance of close systems rather than the absolute requirement for openness, etc.

And, trying to pin your charge on these companies is absolutely absurd.

As I am in the field for over 30 years, I have followed their endeavors since the early 80s.
They have each failed to enter the world of Open Architecture because they went H1-B crazy and H1-Bs rarely have the skills to accomplish anything.

No, that is absolutely ridiculous.

Apple didn't go "open architecture" either.

The point I was making is that Apple has consistently kept their solutions far more closed than has Microsoft.

Remember that it was about a decade before Apple even so much as allowed a third party to sell a printer. And, Microsoft was putting their entire system on the computers built by anyone in the world, while adding different networking solutions, and other major extensions.

Apple was considered more "usable" because they stayed closed - there just were far fewer options. There was THE printer. There was THE monitor. There was THE keyboard. There was THE network system. There was THE storage device. All hardware was made by ONE company. For a long time there was even a lock so you couldn't even see inside the box!!! Apple considered ONE user for a particular systenm as opposed to the issues and advantages seen in a corporate environment where there is corporate management of information, including information hardware (management that Apple needed to ignore in favor of simplicity for owner-maintained configurations).

And, NONE of this has ANYTHING to do with visas.

It has to do with significant differences in the perceived needs of specific and varied markets.

 

[Indeependent]

I'm referring to financial institutions and software firms like IBM and MS who hire the cheapest coders so they can boost their stock value.

No, you're wrong about MS. I don't know IBM.

MS will hire all the top CS grads they can get their hands on. They do have to pass a grueling technical interview process, but there is NO differentiation of ANY KIND concerning where they came from during that interview process. And, the salary structure is set based on competition with other corporations. There just isn't any mechanism by which someone could hold the same job, but get paid less based on immigration status, country of origin, or whatever else.

I know there was that case of them hiring part timers and basically using them full time. But, that didn't have to do with foreign employees. It had to do with MS always needing more work hours and thus had managers with no legal training and high motivation to keep everyone working - regardless of legal constraints.

Then why have their products been so mediocre since 1998?
You see, as a software developer who has been forced to work with Indian Business Visas I find I can't trust your judgement on what you consider the best.
For example, I am impressed by Apple and Google and completely unimpressed by MS, IBM and Oracle.
The MS, IBM and Oracle workforce is way over 95% Indian Business Visas.
Heck, even The Wall Street Journal admits such.

MS, IBM and Oracle address issues that are quite different from those of the general public and their desire to play, their general technical inability, their acceptance of close systems rather than the absolute requirement for openness, etc.

And, trying to pin your charge on these companies is absolutely absurd.

As I am in the field for over 30 years, I have followed their endeavors since the early 80s.
They have each failed to enter the world of Open Architecture because they went H1-B crazy and H1-Bs rarely have the skills to accomplish anything.

No, that is absolutely ridiculous.

Apple didn't go "open architecture" either.

The point I was making is that Apple has consistently kept their solutions far more closed than has Microsoft.

Remember that it was about a decade before Apple even so much as allowed a third party to sell a printer. And, Microsoft was putting their entire system on the computers built by anyone in the world, while adding different networking solutions, and other major extensions.

Apple was considered more "usable" because they stayed closed - there just were far fewer options. There was THE printer. There was THE monitor. There was THE keyboard. There was THE network system. There was THE storage device. All hardware was made by ONE company. For a long time there was even a lock so you couldn't even see inside the box!!! Apple considered ONE user for a particular systenm as opposed to the issues and advantages seen in a corporate environment where there is corporate management of information, including information hardware (management that Apple needed to ignore in favor of simplicity for owner-maintained configurations).

And, NONE of this has ANYTHING to do with visas.

It has to do with significant differences in the perceived needs of specific and varied markets.

You're right about Open Architecture.
What I meant to convey was Apple went Open in terms of portability...phones and tablets.
MS, IBM and Oracle tried to do the same and failed miserably.

I laughed my arse off when Steve Balmer introduced to the world the...LAPTOP.
Except the idiot called it Surface not realizing that Apple, HP, Dell, etc... beat him to the punch by a good couple of years.
That's what you get when you surround yourself with people who don't even know how to surf the web and see what's going on.

In terms of software development it has EVERYTHING to do with visas.
If you have an iPhone you'll see how often that Multi-National Corporate Apps have to be downloaded because of yet ANOTHER error.
If these coders knew what they were doing they wouldn't have to fix things like memory leaks every day.

Companies like Apple and Google get it right by spending the money and getting the talent.
Others simply reply on what they sold 30-40 years ago and keep pushing supposed "upgrades" of their software.
Heck, I can't see any reason to upgrade the MS Office since around 2000; there's not ONE feature that would make my life simpler.

It's ironic that nobody under the age of 40 ever heard of IBM or Oracle.

 

[Thunderbird]

This is not a representation of what is actually going on.

you are going out of your way to find nonsense.

I disagree.

Brown University Professor Denounces ‘McCarthy’ Witch Hunts

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1602582688/&tag=ff0d01-20

Student Blasts Her College’s ‘Thought Police’ and Political Correctness That’s ‘Reached the Level of Crazy’

As a Republican, I'm on the Fringe

THOUGHT POLICE: University Persecutes Professor for Speaking Unfavorably of Gay Marriage - The College Fix

Feminist Studies Professor Leads Angry Mob to Assault Pro-Lifers



How academia's liberal bias is killing social science

How Free Speech Died on Campus - FIRE

College president pay: Is it too high?

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/artic...government-is-to-blame-for-high-college-costs

 

[g5000]

Any time a politician touts something as being "free," hold on to your wallet. I would be perfectly fine with this (in my state), if there were rational academic prerequisites and it were limited to subject matter that could conceivably result in a degree with tangible economic value (no "Fine Arts" degrees, if you please).

With 6 days to go, 12,000 Oregon students have applied for 'free' community college

They must submit their high school transcript to prove they have a grade-point average of 2.5 or higher.

Students are eligible for Oregon Promise grants if they enroll in a certificate program to become a firefighter, a welder, a radiation technician or the like. Or they can pursue the first two years of credits toward a four-year degree.

 

[Kondor3]

...In fact, we need engineers who have more exposure to humanities...

Truth.

S(ubject) M(atter) E(xpert)s are all well and good, but SMEs with well-rounded and well-balanced and broad-thinking minds are more valuable to society in the long run.

 

[WillReadmore]

No, you're wrong about MS. I don't know IBM.

MS will hire all the top CS grads they can get their hands on. They do have to pass a grueling technical interview process, but there is NO differentiation of ANY KIND concerning where they came from during that interview process. And, the salary structure is set based on competition with other corporations. There just isn't any mechanism by which someone could hold the same job, but get paid less based on immigration status, country of origin, or whatever else.

I know there was that case of them hiring part timers and basically using them full time. But, that didn't have to do with foreign employees. It had to do with MS always needing more work hours and thus had managers with no legal training and high motivation to keep everyone working - regardless of legal constraints.

Then why have their products been so mediocre since 1998?
You see, as a software developer who has been forced to work with Indian Business Visas I find I can't trust your judgement on what you consider the best.
For example, I am impressed by Apple and Google and completely unimpressed by MS, IBM and Oracle.
The MS, IBM and Oracle workforce is way over 95% Indian Business Visas.
Heck, even The Wall Street Journal admits such.

MS, IBM and Oracle address issues that are quite different from those of the general public and their desire to play, their general technical inability, their acceptance of close systems rather than the absolute requirement for openness, etc.

And, trying to pin your charge on these companies is absolutely absurd.

As I am in the field for over 30 years, I have followed their endeavors since the early 80s.
They have each failed to enter the world of Open Architecture because they went H1-B crazy and H1-Bs rarely have the skills to accomplish anything.

No, that is absolutely ridiculous.

Apple didn't go "open architecture" either.

The point I was making is that Apple has consistently kept their solutions far more closed than has Microsoft.

Remember that it was about a decade before Apple even so much as allowed a third party to sell a printer. And, Microsoft was putting their entire system on the computers built by anyone in the world, while adding different networking solutions, and other major extensions.

Apple was considered more "usable" because they stayed closed - there just were far fewer options. There was THE printer. There was THE monitor. There was THE keyboard. There was THE network system. There was THE storage device. All hardware was made by ONE company. For a long time there was even a lock so you couldn't even see inside the box!!! Apple considered ONE user for a particular systenm as opposed to the issues and advantages seen in a corporate environment where there is corporate management of information, including information hardware (management that Apple needed to ignore in favor of simplicity for owner-maintained configurations).

And, NONE of this has ANYTHING to do with visas.

It has to do with significant differences in the perceived needs of specific and varied markets.

You're right about Open Architecture.
What I meant to convey was Apple went Open in terms of portability...phones and tablets.
MS, IBM and Oracle tried to do the same and failed miserably.

I laughed my arse off when Steve Balmer introduced to the world the...LAPTOP.
Except the idiot called it Surface not realizing that Apple, HP, Dell, etc... beat him to the punch by a good couple of years.
That's what you get when you surround yourself with people who don't even know how to surf the web and see what's going on.

In terms of software development it has EVERYTHING to do with visas.
If you have an iPhone you'll see how often that Multi-National Corporate Apps have to be downloaded because of yet ANOTHER error.
If these coders knew what they were doing they wouldn't have to fix things like memory leaks every day.

Companies like Apple and Google get it right by spending the money and getting the talent.
Others simply reply on what they sold 30-40 years ago and keep pushing supposed "upgrades" of their software.
Heck, I can't see any reason to upgrade the MS Office since around 2000; there's not ONE feature that would make my life simpler.

It's ironic that nobody under the age of 40 ever heard of IBM or Oracle.

Now you're REALLY going nutty. MS is a software company. They really only make hardware as a side issue.

The fact of the matter is that FAR more computers run MS software than Apple software - noting that phones aren't in that category.

And, that has NOTHING to do with being "open". So, don't make excuses.

On phones, Apple has been on the CLOSED side of the scale, with it's requirements for Apple ownership of code written by application creators. MS has ALWAYS been MORE open - both in terms of business practices and technology. Period. As has Google with Android.

In fact, third parties have windows source code. How many corporations have the source code for Apple's various operating systems?

Once again, you're just plain confused about the business world of computers and software.

And, as for management, the hiring and compensation of MS employees is determined by managers who don't even have access to the immigration status of employees - it's just not their job. There job is to create software and evaluate the engineers in their group, promoting those who are good and firing those who aren't. So, suggesting visa holders are paid less is just plain stupid. That would require a complete reworking of how compensation is determined.

If you want to critique MS on their foray into the cell phone market, fine. But, attaching that to visa issues is absolute and total BS.

 

[WillReadmore]

Any time a politician touts something as being "free," hold on to your wallet. I would be perfectly fine with this (in my state), if there were rational academic prerequisites and it were limited to subject matter that could conceivably result in a degree with tangible economic value (no "Fine Arts" degrees, if you please).

With 6 days to go, 12,000 Oregon students have applied for 'free' community college

They must submit their high school transcript to prove they have a grade-point average of 2.5 or higher.

Students are eligible for Oregon Promise grants if they enroll in a certificate program to become a firefighter, a welder, a radiation technician or the like. Or they can pursue the first two years of credits toward a four-year degree.

Yes.

It's estimated that college graduates earn at least a million dollars more than those limited to high school over their careers.

The additional income tax on that difference is significant, especially when one considers that those withg high school only often end up getting support for living rather than for college. And, that would cost far more than the cost of college tuition - it can last longer AND cost more per year.

 

[WillReadmore]

This is not a representation of what is actually going on.

you are going out of your way to find nonsense.

I disagree.

Brown University Professor Denounces ‘McCarthy’ Witch Hunts

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1602582688/&tag=ff0d01-20

Student Blasts Her College’s ‘Thought Police’ and Political Correctness That’s ‘Reached the Level of Crazy’

As a Republican, I'm on the Fringe

THOUGHT POLICE: University Persecutes Professor for Speaking Unfavorably of Gay Marriage - The College Fix

Feminist Studies Professor Leads Angry Mob to Assault Pro-Lifers



How academia's liberal bias is killing social science

How Free Speech Died on Campus - FIRE

College president pay: Is it too high?

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/artic...government-is-to-blame-for-high-college-costs

I'm fully in favor of what universities are doing in order to slow the rise in racism and bigotry on their campuses.

This IS a serious problem today. And, the educational environment is the most logical place we have for working on this problem once families have failed their kids.

Requiring the use of inclusive language is more than logical as a starting point.

 

[Indeependent]

Then why have their products been so mediocre since 1998?
You see, as a software developer who has been forced to work with Indian Business Visas I find I can't trust your judgement on what you consider the best.
For example, I am impressed by Apple and Google and completely unimpressed by MS, IBM and Oracle.
The MS, IBM and Oracle workforce is way over 95% Indian Business Visas.
Heck, even The Wall Street Journal admits such.

MS, IBM and Oracle address issues that are quite different from those of the general public and their desire to play, their general technical inability, their acceptance of close systems rather than the absolute requirement for openness, etc.

And, trying to pin your charge on these companies is absolutely absurd.

As I am in the field for over 30 years, I have followed their endeavors since the early 80s.
They have each failed to enter the world of Open Architecture because they went H1-B crazy and H1-Bs rarely have the skills to accomplish anything.

No, that is absolutely ridiculous.

Apple didn't go "open architecture" either.

The point I was making is that Apple has consistently kept their solutions far more closed than has Microsoft.

Remember that it was about a decade before Apple even so much as allowed a third party to sell a printer. And, Microsoft was putting their entire system on the computers built by anyone in the world, while adding different networking solutions, and other major extensions.

Apple was considered more "usable" because they stayed closed - there just were far fewer options. There was THE printer. There was THE monitor. There was THE keyboard. There was THE network system. There was THE storage device. All hardware was made by ONE company. For a long time there was even a lock so you couldn't even see inside the box!!! Apple considered ONE user for a particular systenm as opposed to the issues and advantages seen in a corporate environment where there is corporate management of information, including information hardware (management that Apple needed to ignore in favor of simplicity for owner-maintained configurations).

And, NONE of this has ANYTHING to do with visas.

It has to do with significant differences in the perceived needs of specific and varied markets.

You're right about Open Architecture.
What I meant to convey was Apple went Open in terms of portability...phones and tablets.
MS, IBM and Oracle tried to do the same and failed miserably.

I laughed my arse off when Steve Balmer introduced to the world the...LAPTOP.
Except the idiot called it Surface not realizing that Apple, HP, Dell, etc... beat him to the punch by a good couple of years.
That's what you get when you surround yourself with people who don't even know how to surf the web and see what's going on.

In terms of software development it has EVERYTHING to do with visas.
If you have an iPhone you'll see how often that Multi-National Corporate Apps have to be downloaded because of yet ANOTHER error.
If these coders knew what they were doing they wouldn't have to fix things like memory leaks every day.

Companies like Apple and Google get it right by spending the money and getting the talent.
Others simply reply on what they sold 30-40 years ago and keep pushing supposed "upgrades" of their software.
Heck, I can't see any reason to upgrade the MS Office since around 2000; there's not ONE feature that would make my life simpler.

It's ironic that nobody under the age of 40 ever heard of IBM or Oracle.

Now you're REALLY going nutty. MS is a software company. They really only make hardware as a side issue.

The fact of the matter is that FAR more computers run MS software than Apple software - noting that phones aren't in that category.

And, that has NOTHING to do with being "open". So, don't make excuses.

On phones, Apple has been on the CLOSED side of the scale, with it's requirements for Apple ownership of code written by application creators. MS has ALWAYS been MORE open - both in terms of business practices and technology. Period. As has Google with Android.

In fact, third parties have windows source code. How many corporations have the source code for Apple's various operating systems?

Once again, you're just plain confused about the business world of computers and software.

And, as for management, the hiring and compensation of MS employees is determined by managers who don't even have access to the immigration status of employees - it's just not their job. There job is to create software and evaluate the engineers in their group, promoting those who are good and firing those who aren't. So, suggesting visa holders are paid less is just plain stupid. That would require a complete reworking of how compensation is determined.

If you want to critique MS on their foray into the cell phone market, fine. But, attaching that to visa issues is absolute and total BS.

Human resources is COMPLETLEY responsible for which resumes are used and which are tossed in the trash.
They have their orders from the CEO who absolutely insists all IT jobs are to be given SOLELY to H1-Bs.
If you don't know this you haven't been reading your financial publications since 2004.