let's help enact Governor Cuomo's proposal for free college in New York!

[WillReadmore]

But, you've been arguing that individuals with a particular visa situation are paid differently within a corporation, and that is CRAP when it comes to major software corporations.

It's interesting as I actually have people in my neighborhood who own successful software firms, including Ofiice Automation, Healthcare and Brokerage Systems.
They tell me top dollar for an H1-B is $15.00/hour for a Masters and $22.00 for a Doctorate.
The people I know who work in Financial Firms so NOT hire the H1-Bs directly but subcontract them through Indian Firms and they pay the programmers at most $15.00/hour and fire them when they get their Green Cards.

Have you SEEN the paychecks of the Indian Business Visas working for you?
How many H1-Bs do you deal with directly?

Contractor rates vary for a number of reasons.

I'm all in favor of ending the kind of employee abuse you identify.

I've NEVER concerned myself with visa status of anyone in my company's employ. That is handled by corporate legal. On a personal level, I've seen these people go through great difficulties. One guy would have lost his progress in gaining citizenship if he left the USA, and his wife was not allowed to enter America - and that went on for two years!!

I've always been free to focus on developing world class software solutions. I believe there are small companies that take maximal advantage when their employees have a weakness such as immigration status. Denying visas because companies do that is not a valid solution.

I'll also point out that when those folks get their green cards, they will be hired based on competition with all other applicants. It's disgusting to hear that they get fired for getting a green card, but at least after that they are on the market.

Throughout my entire career I've never seen a software engineer get paid that little, by the way.

I've had to document with evidence that I would hire anyone with a particular technical skill set, including evidence of significant attempts to do so, as that has been a federal requirement. It's a pain, but I'm OK with that. And, I've always had open head count that would be filled with anyone who met the qualifications.

The catch here is that there just aren't enough serious software engineers being created. We have lots of folks who can bang out web pages or add rules to spreadsheets, etc., but that is irrelevant.

So the bottom line of reality is that you don't know.
Now you do.
By the way, MDs are being replaced also.
If ProHealth buys out your practice, you get a 2 year contract then they replace you with an Indian Business Visas.
I currently know 11 MDs who weren't expecting the businesses who bought out their practices to let them go.
They can't find employment as the clinics and hospitals in Nassau County are flooding over with IBVs.

This is a GREAT point. We have specific immigration programs that control bringing particular expertise to America. But, there is very different logic that must apply to different areas of expertise.

Doctors: We only need so many doctors per thousand population. Having more doctors doesn't widen the market or open new employment opportunity.

Computer scientists: We need exceptionally smart people in order to create MORE JOBS requiring even MORE computer scientists.

For example, Apple (and others) figured out how to allow people to create applets. Doing that required serious work on how to create an extensible architecture, including network services - even network services that use both the phone radio and the WIFI radio, connecting to different services. This is NOT easy stuff.

That meant that many THOUSANDS of new companies could start writing applets doing all sorts of stuff that Apple has no PRAYER of addressing. It also opened new businesses related to information distribution (news, corporate, purchasing, social, fun, whatever) and all sorts of other stuff. The few at Apple created jobs for HUGE numbers of people in numerous disciplines!!

I'm saying we need MORE of that.

I agree that those who develop device drivers must be the best but that comprises probably about 1% of H1-Bs.
The overwhelming majority of H1-Bs are here to write mundane code.

Most Applets are simple Copy & Paste at this point in time as just about every App does what every other App does.

Insofar as replacing MDs of all nationalities with Indians I think you've got some major stock cheap foreign labor.

Check out...
House Bill HR633
Senate Bill S744
These bills would replace almost 2 million Americans a year with Business Visas.

But I know...you think that's a good thing.
Until YOU'RE replaced.

Device drivers are not particularly sophisticated. And, iOS and Android are certainly NOT device drivers if that's what you are implying. They do have design for adding device drivers, and that design is more significant that the device drivers themselves.

And, if you reread what I wrote you will find that my point is that the reason for admitting doctors is NOT because it improves the job picture in America. But, finding smart computer scientists CAN change the job picture in America.

I pointed out the difference. One subtracts from our number of jobs. The other ADDS to our number of jobs. Or, it can when corporations pay attention to hiring the best minds - the minds we need to be competitive with other nations.

Don't forget that congressional bill numbering starts over by congressional year. So, you have to say which congress you are talking about.

And, those bills AGAIN demonstrates what I pointed out - we can adjust immigration programs in ways that are HIGHLY specific. And, NOWHERE did I suggest what India be favored - EVER.

YOU brought up India, not me.

 

[WillReadmore]

I'm fully in favor of what universities are doing in order to slow the rise in racism and bigotry on their campuses.

Do you hate freedom of speech and tolerance of opposing views?

And check this out: University Affirmative-Action Admissions Policies Are Toxic

No. But, I don't accept hate speech, assaultive behavior (including oral and written), and other such destructive approaches. Our universities have an objective that is damaged by these behaviors. They provide many avenues for open, free and rational discussion of issues. Hurling ad hom, the "n" word, gender epithets, etc. is destructive of education - there is no way to use that to add to understanding.

As for affirmative action, universities believe that having broad variety in the student body is a requirement for serious education.

That variety includes types of backgrounds, nations of origin, locations within the US, gender, race, and other such variety.

Requiring that universities can not have a hand in selecting their student bodies is damaging to their product - education.

 

[Thunderbird]

I'm fully in favor of what universities are doing in order to slow the rise in racism and bigotry on their campuses.

Do you hate freedom of speech and tolerance of opposing views?

And check this out: University Affirmative-Action Admissions Policies Are Toxic

No. But, I don't accept hate speech, assaultive behavior (including oral and written), and other such destructive approaches. Our universities have an objective that is damaged by these behaviors. They provide many avenues for open, free and rational discussion of issues. Hurling ad hom, the "n" word, gender epithets, etc. is destructive of education - there is no way to use that to add to understanding.

You are ignoring the many examples I've provided of intolerance and opposition to free speech.

More examples for you to ignore: The Death of Free Speech on Campus | RedState

Requiring that universities can not have a hand in selecting their student bodies is damaging to their product - education.

But should they be forced to apply affirmative action?

Why do you ignore the affirmative action studies discussed in the article I linked to?

 

[WillReadmore]

I'm fully in favor of what universities are doing in order to slow the rise in racism and bigotry on their campuses.

Do you hate freedom of speech and tolerance of opposing views?

And check this out: University Affirmative-Action Admissions Policies Are Toxic

No. But, I don't accept hate speech, assaultive behavior (including oral and written), and other such destructive approaches. Our universities have an objective that is damaged by these behaviors. They provide many avenues for open, free and rational discussion of issues. Hurling ad hom, the "n" word, gender epithets, etc. is destructive of education - there is no way to use that to add to understanding.

You are ignoring the many examples I've provided of intolerance and opposition to free speech.

More examples for you to ignore: The Death of Free Speech on Campus | RedState

Requiring that universities can not have a hand in selecting their student bodies is damaging to their product - education.

But should they be forced to apply affirmative action?

Why do you ignore the affirmative action studies discussed in the article I linked to?

Most universities are being forced NOT to apply methods of ensuring student body diversity. They continue to work on ways to achieve diversity, with the bigots continuing to find excuses for preventing that.

So, let's just agree on this: It's the right wing absolutists who are attacking the universities over diversity.

And, I'll have to say that I see you as a total whiner.

The idea that we can't talk about race relations without using the "n word" is proof of a total LACK of education.

The direction of hate speech does NOT further education. And, education is the ONLY PURPOSE of our universities.

Think about this: If speakers are required to use civil discourse to discuss problems, it's far more likely that education will take place, both on the part of the speaker and on the part of the audience.

 

[Clementine]

call your local legislator, New Yorkers!

NY gov proposes free tuition for public colleges

How special. They found another way to chase tax payers out of the state. There has been a great deal of people leaving high tax blue states to more friendly states.

Those who are already tired of being taxed to death likely won't stay for more abuse from the money grabbing politicians who are trying to keep their dependents happy.

Maybe it would be more helpful if these lib college professors would accept less pay. The cost is ridiculous. Warren made an absurd amount for teaching one class, then she turns around and whines about the wage gap. I guess it's okay when it's them at the high end and tax payers at the bottom.

 

[Clementine]

I'm fully in favor of what universities are doing in order to slow the rise in racism and bigotry on their campuses.

Do you hate freedom of speech and tolerance of opposing views?

And check this out: University Affirmative-Action Admissions Policies Are Toxic

No. But, I don't accept hate speech, assaultive behavior (including oral and written), and other such destructive approaches. Our universities have an objective that is damaged by these behaviors. They provide many avenues for open, free and rational discussion of issues. Hurling ad hom, the "n" word, gender epithets, etc. is destructive of education - there is no way to use that to add to understanding.

You are ignoring the many examples I've provided of intolerance and opposition to free speech.

More examples for you to ignore: The Death of Free Speech on Campus | RedState

Requiring that universities can not have a hand in selecting their student bodies is damaging to their product - education.

But should they be forced to apply affirmative action?

Why do you ignore the affirmative action studies discussed in the article I linked to?

Most universities are being forced NOT to apply methods of ensuring student body diversity. They continue to work on ways to achieve diversity, with the bigots continuing to find excuses for preventing that.

So, let's just agree on this: It's the right wing absolutists who are attacking the universities over diversity.

And, I'll have to say that I see you as a total whiner.

The idea that we can't talk about race relations without using the "n word" is proof of a total LACK of education.

The direction of hate speech does NOT further education. And, education is the ONLY PURPOSE of our universities.

Think about this: If speakers are required to use civil discourse to discuss problems, it's far more likely that education will take place, both on the part of the speaker and on the part of the audience.

No one is griping about diversity. It's something that should happen naturally as people move where they want and choose the schools they want.

It's the left that freaks out when the color isn't even. You guys have messed with school students by forcing them to bus to other schools so you can balance the color out. Never mind that parents chose to move to neighborhoods because they liked the schools.

You guys are the ones who hate choice. And your idea of diversity is to rearrange people and make choices for them so you can feel good about yourself. Zero understanding of human nature allows you guys to be that way. Why do liberals always assume that they are the only ones who feel strongly about things and treat others like pieces on a chess board?

There are so many organizations to help minority students. If you want to know why so many aren't seeking the opportunity, you need to look no further than liberal policies that tell minorities they aren't as good, then encourage them to remain under the wing of government. Because of that, many assume that nanny government will give them cradle to grave care and they lose incentive to take action on their own. If they don't finish high school in those crappy inner city schools, there is no college in their future. Throwing more money at the problem hasn't done shit but libs are ready to do that again.

Until people understand that turning to government is the worst choice, they will never know what the American dream is all about.

Stop trying to control people. You guys are like the parents who treat their kids like helpless little children for years and then blame others when the kid is 30 and still needs the parents to take care of them.

 

[WillReadmore]

I'm fully in favor of what universities are doing in order to slow the rise in racism and bigotry on their campuses.

Do you hate freedom of speech and tolerance of opposing views?

And check this out: University Affirmative-Action Admissions Policies Are Toxic

No. But, I don't accept hate speech, assaultive behavior (including oral and written), and other such destructive approaches. Our universities have an objective that is damaged by these behaviors. They provide many avenues for open, free and rational discussion of issues. Hurling ad hom, the "n" word, gender epithets, etc. is destructive of education - there is no way to use that to add to understanding.

You are ignoring the many examples I've provided of intolerance and opposition to free speech.

More examples for you to ignore: The Death of Free Speech on Campus | RedState

Requiring that universities can not have a hand in selecting their student bodies is damaging to their product - education.

But should they be forced to apply affirmative action?

Why do you ignore the affirmative action studies discussed in the article I linked to?

Most universities are being forced NOT to apply methods of ensuring student body diversity. They continue to work on ways to achieve diversity, with the bigots continuing to find excuses for preventing that.

So, let's just agree on this: It's the right wing absolutists who are attacking the universities over diversity.

And, I'll have to say that I see you as a total whiner.

The idea that we can't talk about race relations without using the "n word" is proof of a total LACK of education.

The direction of hate speech does NOT further education. And, education is the ONLY PURPOSE of our universities.

Think about this: If speakers are required to use civil discourse to discuss problems, it's far more likely that education will take place, both on the part of the speaker and on the part of the audience.

No one is griping about diversity. It's something that should happen naturally as people move where they want and choose the schools they want.

It's the left that freaks out when the color isn't even. You guys have messed with school students by forcing them to bus to other schools so you can balance the color out. Never mind that parents chose to move to neighborhoods because they liked the schools.

You guys are the ones who hate choice. And your idea of diversity is to rearrange people and make choices for them so you can feel good about yourself. Zero understanding of human nature allows you guys to be that way. Why do liberals always assume that they are the only ones who feel strongly about things and treat others like pieces on a chess board?

There are so many organizations to help minority students. If you want to know why so many aren't seeking the opportunity, you need to look no further than liberal policies that tell minorities they aren't as good, then encourage them to remain under the wing of government. Because of that, many assume that nanny government will give them cradle to grave care and they lose incentive to take action on their own. If they don't finish high school in those crappy inner city schools, there is no college in their future. Throwing more money at the problem hasn't done shit but libs are ready to do that again.

Until people understand that turning to government is the worst choice, they will never know what the American dream is all about.

Stop trying to control people. You guys are like the parents who treat their kids like helpless little children for years and then blame others when the kid is 30 and still needs the parents to take care of them.

No, you can NOT deny that the right wing is STRONGLY opposed to universities working toward diversity.

That is just plain false, as we've seen over and over and over again.

No, "the color isn't even" is a big fat red herring. Universities are interested in numerous kinds of diversity. And, they are not interested in equal numbers. They haven't even been interested in numbers proportionate to the population at large.

The right wing HAS been uniformly opposed to diversity being an objective.

I have NO idea what you mean by "choice".

Your comments on spending have no justification.

 

[Thunderbird]

Most universities are being forced NOT to apply methods of ensuring student body diversity.

You mean there are some limits to the discrimination permitted against certain groups.

Asian Americans file complaint alleging discrimination in Harvard admissions

They continue to work on ways to achieve diversity, with the bigots continuing to find excuses for preventing that.

Aren't the bigots the ones who want to discriminate against certain applicants because of their skin color?

The idea that we can't talk about race relations without using the "n word" is proof of a total LACK of education.

You are being completely dishonest. Unless you are very stupid you must realize the debate is not about the use of the n word. I gave many examples of intolerance but you continue to ignore the facts.

 

[Thunderbird]

The right wing HAS been uniformly opposed to diversity being an objective.

Example?

 

[WillReadmore]

Most universities are being forced NOT to apply methods of ensuring student body diversity.

You mean there are some limits to the discrimination permitted against certain groups.

Asian Americans file complaint alleging discrimination in Harvard admissions

They continue to work on ways to achieve diversity, with the bigots continuing to find excuses for preventing that.

Aren't the bigots the ones who want to discriminate against certain applicants because of their skin color?

The idea that we can't talk about race relations without using the "n word" is proof of a total LACK of education.

You are being completely dishonest. Unless you are very stupid you must realize the debate is not about the use of the n word. I gave many examples of intolerance but you continue to ignore the facts.

You're still failing to recognize that universities (including Harvard) are working toward having a diverse student body.

So, your argument just doesn't make any sense.

And, yes, I'm fully aware that the free speech issue isn't limited to the use of the "n word". I just didn't itemize all the ways people can work to defeat actual education.

The fact still remains that part of university life does include rules that are in place to focus on creating an environment of education. They do get latitude in creating that environment.

 

[WillReadmore]

The right wing HAS been uniformly opposed to diversity being an objective.

Example?

Oh, please. This thread (including your posts) includes several examples.

 

[Thunderbird]

You're still failing to recognize that universities (including Harvard) are working toward having a diverse student body.

As we've seen universities are discriminating against certain groups (like Asians). Don't you think universities should be criticized for discriminating against qualified candidates?

And, yes, I'm fully aware that the free speech issue isn't limited to the use of the "n word". I just didn't itemize all the ways people can work to defeat actual education.

What?! Intolerance and the restriction of free speech = education? Don't be absurd.

 

[Thunderbird]

The right wing HAS been uniformly opposed to diversity being an objective.

Example?

Oh, please. This thread (including your posts) includes several examples.

Please provide an example of Republicans favoring laws which oppose educational diversity.

 

[WillReadmore]

You're still failing to recognize that universities (including Harvard) are working toward having a diverse student body.

As we've seen universities are discriminating against certain groups (like Asians). Don't you think universities should be criticized for discriminating against qualified candidates?

And, yes, I'm fully aware that the free speech issue isn't limited to the use of the "n word". I just didn't itemize all the ways people can work to defeat actual education.

What?! Intolerance and the restriction of free speech = education? Don't be absurd.

No. I think universities are correct in determining that their product is degraded when there is less diversity.

I also don't agree that GPA or SAT scores are the only dimension for determining whether a candidate should be accepted by a specific school.

Arguing that someone MUST be accepted because they scored high on a test hits me as crazy. There ARE other qualifications that are well known to be desirable in university applicants - how the prospect spent time outside of high school academics, demonstrations of leadership, writing samples, GPA corrections that are applied based on history with the high school, high school academic history beyond GPA, whether the student's desired academic direction matches the university well, recommendations written by those in a position to know the applicant in some serious way, etc.

I sure you're looking for this as an excuse for accusations of hypocrisy when comparing to other cases of perceived discrimination and I even agree that this is riding the line in some respects. Plus, universities CAN discriminate, obviously.

But, I don't believe that is the case here. Diversity matters. And, test scores alone don't form a justifiable requirement that the applicant be admitted.

 

[WillReadmore]

You're still failing to recognize that universities (including Harvard) are working toward having a diverse student body.

As we've seen universities are discriminating against certain groups (like Asians). Don't you think universities should be criticized for discriminating against qualified candidates?

And, yes, I'm fully aware that the free speech issue isn't limited to the use of the "n word". I just didn't itemize all the ways people can work to defeat actual education.

What?! Intolerance and the restriction of free speech = education? Don't be absurd.

In the unlikely event that most of the top SAT scores were from applicants who wanted to be English Lit majors, would you propose that the school should be required by law to dump it's science department and become an English Lit school?

Or, should they be allowed to reject some top SAT scores in order to fill a more rounded collection of class offerings.

 

[Thunderbird]

I also don't agree that GPA or SAT scores are the only dimension for determining whether a candidate should be accepted by a specific school.

This is not the issue. The question is: Should race help determine who gets a seat in college? Should Asians and other groups with equal qualifications (not only SAT scores) be discriminated against because of their ethnicity?

Do you think Asians are not well-rounded?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

You're still failing to recognize that universities (including Harvard) are working toward having a diverse student body.

As we've seen universities are discriminating against certain groups (like Asians). Don't you think universities should be criticized for discriminating against qualified candidates?

And, yes, I'm fully aware that the free speech issue isn't limited to the use of the "n word". I just didn't itemize all the ways people can work to defeat actual education.

What?! Intolerance and the restriction of free speech = education? Don't be absurd.

No. I think universities are correct in determining that their product is degraded when there is less diversity.

I also don't agree that GPA or SAT scores are the only dimension for determining whether a candidate should be accepted by a specific school.

Arguing that someone MUST be accepted because they scored high on a test hits me as crazy. There ARE other qualifications that are well known to be desirable in university applicants - how the prospect spent time outside of high school academics, demonstrations of leadership, writing samples, GPA corrections that are applied based on history with the high school, high school academic history beyond GPA, whether the student's desired academic direction matches the university well, recommendations written by those in a position to know the applicant in some serious way, etc.

I sure you're looking for this as an excuse for accusations of hypocrisy when comparing to other cases of perceived discrimination and I even agree that this is riding the line in some respects. Plus, universities CAN discriminate, obviously.

But, I don't believe that is the case here. Diversity matters. And, test scores alone don't form a justifiable requirement that the applicant be admitted.

Why?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

You're still failing to recognize that universities (including Harvard) are working toward having a diverse student body.

As we've seen universities are discriminating against certain groups (like Asians). Don't you think universities should be criticized for discriminating against qualified candidates?

And, yes, I'm fully aware that the free speech issue isn't limited to the use of the "n word". I just didn't itemize all the ways people can work to defeat actual education.

What?! Intolerance and the restriction of free speech = education? Don't be absurd.

In the unlikely event that most of the top SAT scores were from applicants who wanted to be English Lit majors, would you propose that the school should be required by law to dump it's science department and become an English Lit school?

Or, should they be allowed to reject some top SAT scores in order to fill a more rounded collection of class offerings.

You are being disingenuous or ignorant of reality. I am uncertain of which you are using to justify your position.

Although I had excellent test scores, when I applied to college, one school refused to admit me to their school of engineering because it was full. I could be accepted into any other number of programs, but not engineering. How is that any different than what you are saying could not be done?

 

[Indeependent]

e

I'm fully in favor of what universities are doing in order to slow the rise in racism and bigotry on their campuses.

Do you hate freedom of speech and tolerance of opposing views?

And check this out: University Affirmative-Action Admissions Policies Are Toxic

No. But, I don't accept hate speech, assaultive behavior (including oral and written), and other such destructive approaches. Our universities have an objective that is damaged by these behaviors. They provide many avenues for open, free and rational discussion of issues. Hurling ad hom, the "n" word, gender epithets, etc. is destructive of education - there is no way to use that to add to understanding.

You are ignoring the many examples I've provided of intolerance and opposition to free speech.

More examples for you to ignore: The Death of Free Speech on Campus | RedState

Requiring that universities can not have a hand in selecting their student bodies is damaging to their product - education.

But should they be forced to apply affirmative action?

Why do you ignore the affirmative action studies discussed in the article I linked to?

Most universities are being forced NOT to apply methods of ensuring student body diversity. They continue to work on ways to achieve diversity, with the bigots continuing to find excuses for preventing that.

So, let's just agree on this: It's the right wing absolutists who are attacking the universities over diversity.

And, I'll have to say that I see you as a total whiner.

The idea that we can't talk about race relations without using the "n word" is proof of a total LACK of education.

The direction of hate speech does NOT further education. And, education is the ONLY PURPOSE of our universities.

Think about this: If speakers are required to use civil discourse to discuss problems, it's far more likely that education will take place, both on the part of the speaker and on the part of the audience.

Apparently, your real world exposure to Universities is right up there with your real world experiences of IT & DIVERSITY (Indians, Indians, Indians, Indians, Indians and MORE Indians).
My son is currently in Baruch College in NYC and my daughter is in Graduate School in a VERY exclusive University DEDICATED to not only DIVERSITY, but PERVERSITY as well (in terms of filling out their Sexual Orientation questionnaire).
I have many friends in Town who children are attending University all over the US and there is ZERO lack of diversity.

And what does Race Relations have to do with achievement?

Can you provide a concrete list of Universities that are anti-None White or anti-Noen American?
I'll pass it by my friends and acquaintances.

 

[WillReadmore]

I also don't agree that GPA or SAT scores are the only dimension for determining whether a candidate should be accepted by a specific school.

This is not the issue. The question is: Should race help determine who gets a seat in college? Should Asians and other groups with equal qualifications (not only SAT scores) be discriminated against because of their ethnicity?

Do you think Asians are not well-rounded?

You did not answer my question.

And, i have consistently stated that diversity is a legitimate objective.

You are having a hard time kerping up on this thread.

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