Let's Talk.........I mean REALLY Talk.......

[Skull Pilot]

Sorry but you're wrong
Those people qualified if barely

And really they buyers were the ones at fault for buying a home on a 5 year ARM interest only loan with no down payment.

They were just as at fault as the people who reupped their mortgages every time the value went up then whined that they were underwater when prices fell.

Right. The banks who put out those commercials encouraging people to do EXACTLY THAT had nothing to do with it.

And why not? It as a win-win for the Banksters. The government bailed them out when they fucked up, and the people who took out the loans were still on the hook.

And of course, a really horrible person would think this was fine.

yeah it's everyone else's fault

we all know your shtick

 

[JoeB131]

yeah it's everyone else's fault

we all know your shtick

Again, when you have a business model that is based on giving people loans they can't afford and selling them products that do them damage, that's kind of on them, isn't it?

Caveat Vendor should be the rule, not Caveat Emptor.

The housing bubble created the illusion of prosperity, so the 1% was happy to go along with it, knowing when it popped, the rest of us would be holding the bag.

 

[Skull Pilot]

yeah it's everyone else's fault

we all know your shtick

Again, when you have a business model that is based on giving people loans they can't afford and selling them products that do them damage, that's kind of on them, isn't it?

Caveat Vendor should be the rule, not Caveat Emptor.

The housing bubble created the illusion of prosperity, so the 1% was happy to go along with it, knowing when it popped, the rest of us would be holding the bag.

Only for people stupid enough to keep reupping their mortgages

or those who bought houses they knew they could barely afford

Sorry but no one forced those people to sign on the dotted line

 

[JoeB131]

Only for people stupid enough to keep reupping their mortgages

or those who bought houses they knew they could barely afford

Sorry but no one forced those people to sign on the dotted line

Right. Because who is supposed to be a better judge, the person who does this for a living or the one just trying to acquire a home.

Maybe your doctor should operate like that, "Hey, he wanted to keep smoking three packs a day, who was I to tell him otherwise?"

 

[kaz]

There are always many causes of a recession. However, most economist pin it on the banks and financial institutions.

They do not, you're full of shit. Why do you people make up crap like that?

Sorry, but they certainly do. So what's your explanation?

Begging the question. You're full of shit. You made it up

 

[rightwinger]

Doesn't answer the question. How did the 40% of Americans that controlled 2/10 of a percent of the wealth manage to crash the economy?

They didn't. People like Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Bill Clinton, etc. did when they unconstitutionally took over the free market and injected it with mass quantities of idiot socialism.

Interesting hypothesis

Which "socialist bills" did Pelosi, Reid and Clinton pass which crashed the economy?

I've explained it a thousand times already. The primary one was the 1997 Community Re-Investment Act (under Clinton).

How on earth could that have wrecked the economy 11 years later?

The people who qualified for those loans had minimal wealth.....maybe 100 billion total
How did they cause 20 Trillion in wealth to be lost?

 

[kaz]

There are always many causes of a recession. However, most economist pin it on the banks and financial institutions.

They do not, you're full of shit. Why do you people make up crap like that?

Sorry, but they certainly do. So what's your explanation?

Do some HONEST homework, Federal Government REGULATIONS.

Flopper thinks Crooks and Liars and the Democratic Underground are the only reliable sources, and they don't agree with you, sorry

 

[AntonToo]

Well let me tell you a little story. 40 years ago, I saw how they were starting to take discipline out of our schools, telling kids to report their parents if they were spanked. I decided it would be abuse to bring a child into that world and the world that would result. I didn't have any and I don't regret it a bit, this country has continued the down hill spiral that started back then.

LOL WTF. You seriously didn't have a child because it became socially unacceptable to hit them? That is retarded...so perhaps it's for the best for all of us.

Here is what I noticed about all these America-is-going-to-hell discussions - they simply reflect poster's situations, not macroeconomic realities.

Old people are going to talk about the good ol' days...because they were young in the good ol' days were optimistic and had their life ahead of them. By today many turned into grumpy old men, especially very conservative ones.

To me, the un-spanked person born some years after OKTexas has made the decision not to procreate, there is no better time than today. I want no piece of your wonderful 50s, 70s or even 90s, even if I had my salary doubled and workday halfed. 2016 is awesome.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Only for people stupid enough to keep reupping their mortgages

or those who bought houses they knew they could barely afford

Sorry but no one forced those people to sign on the dotted line

Right. Because who is supposed to be a better judge, the person who does this for a living or the one just trying to acquire a home.

Maybe your doctor should operate like that, "Hey, he wanted to keep smoking three packs a day, who was I to tell him otherwise?"

A Dr has no obligation to tell anyone to stop smoking and that Dr certainly cannot force anyone to do anything

The choice to smoke resides with the individual and it's none of your business

And FYI all the banks know about anyone's ability to pay is what they can find out on a credit score and from pay stubs

It's not up to them to counsel home buyers

 

[Divine Wind]

Sorry but you're wrong
Those people qualified if barely

And really they buyers were the ones at fault for buying a home on a 5 year ARM interest only loan with no down payment.

They were just as at fault as the people who reupped their mortgages every time the value went up then whined that they were underwater when prices fell.

Right. The banks who put out those commercials encouraging people to do EXACTLY THAT had nothing to do with it.

And why not? It as a win-win for the Banksters. The government bailed them out when they fucked up, and the people who took out the loans were still on the hook.

And of course, a really horrible person would think this was fine.

yeah it's everyone else's fault

we all know your shtick

Agreed. The bottom line here is that businessmen use whatever rules exist to maximize their profit. The only reason banks made bad loans is because Congress promised to back those loans if anyone defaulted. It began with "helping the poor", but doe to 14th Amendment issues, the Middle Class was able to take advantage of it too. When I bought my house in 1998, the real estate agent kept pushing me hard with both an ARM and "You can afford a lot more house with your credit rating".

First, ARM's scared the crap out of me. Being a former helicopter pilot, like Harry Reasoner's article once said, I was always looking for something to go wrong.

Second, I didn't need "more house". It's just more shit to clean. The three bdrom, two bath, two garage house on two acres was perfect for my wife and myself.

When the bust happened 10 years later, I was fine. Those who were greedy deserved what happened to them.

 

[TNHarley]

Most of the wealth that this country gained throughout the first half of the 20th century is flowing either out of our country or into a few rich hands. This isn't good and is hurting our economy and ability to grow. I don't really trust either side on all issues as the left has strayed from its unionist pro-workers mindset and the right is too pro-screwed up trade and cheap labor. What this country did after wwII seems to have made this country very powerful and part of it is the industry we use to have and the wanting to expand the standards of living for all Americans.

It's possible that we see another depression as the Chinese economy seems to be built on a mountain of shit and ours is without the supports it once had. There's no question that economically most people within our society are poorer by far as we simply don't have the buying payer anymore.

What needs to happen is we need to rebuild our industry, stop the flow of wealth to the top and allow for the expansion of the middle class.

you are an idiot

 

[Divine Wind]

....And FYI all the banks know about anyone's ability to pay is what they can find out on a credit score and from pay stubs

It's not up to them to counsel home buyers

If our government hadn't backed those loans with taxpayer dollars, the banks wouldn't have been taking such risks.

Many of us older members here remember the days when 10-20% down was the norm. Young couples just out of college didn't buy 3 bdrm homes 2500 sq ft with swimming pools. They bought "starter homes"; one bedroom, one bath homes which they could easily afford and which they could build up equity to afford the down payment of a larger home when they had kids. It was normal for them to live in a home 5-7 years and slowly move up until they were in a large "Father Knows Best"-type home where each kid had their own bedroom.

 

[Divine Wind]

I often work with younger coworkers out in the field. Sometimes, if they asked, I'd counsel them on investments. Most of my wisdom was learned in the School of Hard Knocks because I didn't have a mentor to tell me otherwise (or I was too stupid to listen!).

One was to buy rather than rent. At the time (early 2000s) realtors were offering a single-wide trailer home on 5 acres for under $50K, no down. That mortgage would have been $500/month, $200 cheaper than renting a two bedroom apartment. They could rent out 1-2 of the other bedrooms to cover their mortgage. In a few years, they could either keep it as a rental property or sell it and buy a conventional home with a substantial down payment. I don't know how many took the advice. Another option was a condo even though maintenance fees could be brutal.

I do know of two pairs of coworkers who were burned "speculating" by buying homes with unaffordable ARMs. One pair, a married couple, knuckled down eating peanut butter and cottage cheese until they were no longer underwater and could sell the home. The other, two guys working as partners, walked away from the mortgage. I expect they eventually regretted that decision.

 

[P@triot]

Regardless of how crooked the higher ups in Fannie and Freddie might have been, student loans played little or no role in causing the recession. Defaults on student loans were fairly low until the recession was well under way in 2009. Also, 76% of student loans were subsidized which means defaults would have had little impact on the economy.

Dude...there shouldn't even be "student loans". The federal government is not a bank. The U.S. Constitution is the law and it explicitly restricts the federal government to 18 enumerated powers - loaning money for education isn't one of them.

It's outrageous illegal activity like that which is why we have such a mess on our hands.

 

[P@triot]

How on earth could that have wrecked the economy 11 years later?

Because people do not default on their first payment chief. And they don't default on their second. And they don't default on their third. It's takes 3 - 5 years before people fall so far behind and max out all of their credit to the point that they can no longer pay their mortgage. Then it takes another 1-2 years for the foreclosure process depending on how willing banks are to work with the homeowner.

And then you have to account for the fact that it's not an instant crash. As more and more people start to default, it's a slow process of the banks laying off people who then can't make payments on their mortgages and the thing gradually snowballs until you get the 2008 nightmare.

The people who qualified for those loans had minimal wealth.....maybe 100 billion total. How did they cause 20 Trillion in wealth to be lost?

You have to stop making stuff up. Nothing could be further from the truth. Do you have any idea how many former millionaires have declared bankruptcy and had their homes foreclosed on? Allen Stanford. Mike Tyson. Jordan Belfort. The list goes on and on and on. Trying to pretend like dirt-poor people are the only one's who lost their homes is vintage disingenuous liberal "we're the victims" nonsense.

 

[Divine Wind]

Dude...there shouldn't even be "student loans". The federal government is not a bank. The U.S. Constitution is the law and it explicitly restricts the federal government to 18 enumerated powers - loaning money for education isn't one of them.

It's outrageous illegal activity like that which is why we have such a mess on our hands.

I have mixed feelings on this, but overall agree We, the People shouldn't be funding college educations for several reasons.

While it is in our nation's best interests to have an educated and employed citizenry, giving away "free shit" never works because 1) it isn't free and 2) the people being given this gift soon believe it is a "right".

This article neatly explains why the Hillary and Bernie proposal of "free college" is wrong-headed and will only end up driving college costs higher.

Making college more expensive: Our view
The United States prides itself on being innovative and creative. Yet it is struggling to train its next generation of achievers. Despite rapidly rising sums that the federal government has devoted to loans and grants, American college students and recent graduates are wallowing in debt. At last count, they owed $1.2 trillion.

Not surprisingly, the leading Democratic presidential candidates — Hillary Clinton, Bernie Sanders and Martin O'Malley — have come up with plans they say will make colleges more affordable and provide debt relief for millennials. Though well-intentioned, their plans threaten to drive up costs rather than rein them in. They would all throw more federal money at colleges while offering little but hope that these institutions would hold expenses down.

If history is any guide, colleges and universities will channel much of the additional money into areas that don't directly benefit students. They might also hike tuition, telling students not to worry because taxpayers will pick up much of the additional burden. A Federal Reserve Bank of New York report found that colleges increased tuition 40 cents for every dollar received in Pell Grants, and 65 cents for every dollar in subsidized loans.

Clinton's plan is the least ambitious and the most practical. Yet it still amounts to taxpayers spending a lot more money without concrete efforts to make colleges control costs. Its centerpiece is a 10-year, $175 billion program of matching grants to states that would require states to reverse recent budget cuts. It would also allow students and graduates to refinance their debts at lower interest rates, expand programs that let people repay their loans as a percentage of their incomes, and enhance existing education tax credits.

She would pay for all this with higher taxes on wealthy Americans. While the affluent can and should pay more, this is a well that lawmakers can go to only so often. New revenue that goes to tuition assistance is money that can't be used to shore up Social Security or Medicare, expand the nation's infrastructure, or reduce the budget deficit.

Plans offered by Sanders and O'Malley would go even further, setting a goal of debt-free education for all students at all public universities.

A better idea would be to take a magnifying glass to exactly why college costs have skyrocketed at three times the overall inflation rate since 1980. As with health care, the answer involves what happens when bills are paid with other people's money.

Too many universities have become bloated and inefficient, using their revenue in ways that don’t benefit the students’ education: Million dollar salaries awarded to top-paid college presidents. Professors who barely teach. Sparkling recreation centers, such as the one at Louisiana State University complete with a lazy river. Bloated bureaucracies with endless vice presidents. Money-losing sports programs.

It doesn’t take a Ph.D. to figure out where money could be saved, but persuading colleges to part with these extras won’t be easy. This is where the federal government and states can harness the leverage that accompanies their dollars to demand accountability, perhaps by awarding grants only to institutions that hold the line on tuition and fees.

Contrary to what many schools would tell you, such cost cutting isn't impossible. Purdue University in Indiana has frozen its tuition for two straight years and will continue to do so for at least two more. To be sure, some of this has been done with the budgetary gimmick of taking more out-of-state students, who pay much higher rates. Even so, Purdue's focus on cost containment should be followed by other schools.

Only by attacking rising tuition at its root cause will the problem of college affordability be addressed. The Democratic candidates need a little more educating on this.

 

[P@triot]

Dude...there shouldn't even be "student loans". The federal government is not a bank. The U.S. Constitution is the law and it explicitly restricts the federal government to 18 enumerated powers - loaning money for education isn't one of them.

It's outrageous illegal activity like that which is why we have such a mess on our hands.

I have mixed feelings on this, but overall agree We, the People shouldn't be funding college educations for several reasons.

While it is in our nation's best interests to have an educated and employed citizenry, giving away "free shit" never works because 1) it isn't free and 2) the people being given this gift soon believe it is a "right".

You're right - but there are literally endless ways to achieve this without the federal government funding it.

Even minimum wage jobs at the smallest businesses around the U.S. now offer tuition reimbursement. That means a person can not only earn a truly free education but also earn money while doing it.

Most companies incorporate on going training programs for their people. And that's where the majority of the eduction burden should be - on the businesses that want people with those specific skills that the business needs. Liberals claim to hate "corporate welfare" but then they turn around and demand that the tax payer pick up the costs for educating the employees of businesses.

The internet. Free at public libraries, cafe's, airports, etc. and nominal costs to have or home - it provides limitless information. Limitless. One could literally learn to be a NSAS rocket scientists if they are smart enough just from the internet alone.

Libraries. Free and filled with books for educating.

And while it's illegal for the federal government to finance education, it is not for state and local governments. If liberals are so desperate to have government fund everything, this is the place to do it. Either your local municipality (best) or your state government (next bext option).

 

[OKTexas]

Well let me tell you a little story. 40 years ago, I saw how they were starting to take discipline out of our schools, telling kids to report their parents if they were spanked. I decided it would be abuse to bring a child into that world and the world that would result. I didn't have any and I don't regret it a bit, this country has continued the down hill spiral that started back then.

LOL WTF. You seriously didn't have a child because it became socially unacceptable to hit them? That is retarded...so perhaps it's for the best for all of us.

Here is what I noticed about all these America-is-going-to-hell discussions - they simply reflect poster's situations, not macroeconomic realities.

Old people are going to talk about the good ol' days...because they were young in the good ol' days were optimistic and had their life ahead of them. By today many turned into grumpy old men, especially very conservative ones.

To me, the un-spanked person born some years after OKTexas has made the decision not to procreate, there is no better time than today. I want no piece of your wonderful 50s, 70s or even 90s, even if I had my salary doubled and workday halfed. 2016 is awesome.

When you have people not taught discipline and respect for others, you get things like students attacking teachers, students killing each other and shit holes like our major cities where life is meaningless. All the situations you regressives are now using to try to take away rights from the law abiding. You still refuse to address the criminal class that is your own creation. An undisciplined society is a lawless society.

 

[AntonToo]

Well let me tell you a little story. 40 years ago, I saw how they were starting to take discipline out of our schools, telling kids to report their parents if they were spanked. I decided it would be abuse to bring a child into that world and the world that would result. I didn't have any and I don't regret it a bit, this country has continued the down hill spiral that started back then.

LOL WTF. You seriously didn't have a child because it became socially unacceptable to hit them? That is retarded...so perhaps it's for the best for all of us.

Here is what I noticed about all these America-is-going-to-hell discussions - they simply reflect poster's situations, not macroeconomic realities.

Old people are going to talk about the good ol' days...because they were young in the good ol' days were optimistic and had their life ahead of them. By today many turned into grumpy old men, especially very conservative ones.

To me, the un-spanked person born some years after OKTexas has made the decision not to procreate, there is no better time than today. I want no piece of your wonderful 50s, 70s or even 90s, even if I had my salary doubled and workday halfed. 2016 is awesome.

When you have people not taught discipline and respect for others, you get things like students attacking teachers, students killing each other and shit holes like our major cities where life is meaningless. All the situations you regressives are now using to try to take away rights from the law abiding. You still refuse to address the criminal class that is your own creation. An undisciplined society is a lawless society.

Your phantasies do not seem to match reality of lower crime rates and many people with very meaningful lives in major cities.

 

[P@triot]

Well let me tell you a little story. 40 years ago, I saw how they were starting to take discipline out of our schools, telling kids to report their parents if they were spanked. I decided it would be abuse to bring a child into that world and the world that would result. I didn't have any and I don't regret it a bit, this country has continued the down hill spiral that started back then.

LOL WTF. You seriously didn't have a child because it became socially unacceptable to hit them? That is retarded...so perhaps it's for the best for all of us.

Here is what I noticed about all these America-is-going-to-hell discussions - they simply reflect poster's situations, not macroeconomic realities.

Old people are going to talk about the good ol' days...because they were young in the good ol' days were optimistic and had their life ahead of them. By today many turned into grumpy old men, especially very conservative ones.

To me, the un-spanked person born some years after OKTexas has made the decision not to procreate, there is no better time than today. I want no piece of your wonderful 50s, 70s or even 90s, even if I had my salary doubled and workday halfed. 2016 is awesome.

When you have people not taught discipline and respect for others, you get things like students attacking teachers, students killing each other and shit holes like our major cities where life is meaningless. All the situations you regressives are now using to try to take away rights from the law abiding. You still refuse to address the criminal class that is your own creation. An undisciplined society is a lawless society.

Great post! And we should add that liberals are unquestionably leading the way in lawless society. They have completely shredded the U.S. Constitution. They advocate the most outrageous and absurd sexually deviant behavior (like people being literally naked in public during gay pride parades and little girls being forced to shower with grown men in public facilities). They advocate for the legal system to be soft on crime (no surprise there since the criminal class is predominantly made up of liberals). And they of course engage in a host of voter fraud.