Number of guns in society falling sharply

[Missourian]

Ernie




Proof? Links?

1970 total US Households = 63,401
2013 total US households = 125,000 (extrapolated from 2002 data)
1970 50% of households had guns = 31,700 families had guns
2013 34% of households had guns = 42,500 families had guns

Simple math, really.

Have you tried to buy ammo lately? Shheeeesh, I had to wait 2 weeks to pick up some 45-70's.....this was at Cabelas.....4 boxes came in and I picked up 3 of them, left one for seed.
I tried to get the ammo at other sporting goods stores and online, they all were backlogged.

Yes, we have less households owning guns these days.
I think there are still plenty that have the guns.

Do you have primitive hunting season up there...or do you just like the 45-70 Govt.?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Have you tried to buy ammo lately? Shheeeesh, I had to wait 2 weeks to pick up some 45-70's.....this was at Cabelas.....4 boxes came in and I picked up 3 of them, left one for seed.
I tried to get the ammo at other sporting goods stores and online, they all were backlogged.

Yes, we have less households owning guns these days.
I think there are still plenty that have the guns.

I have about 35 contacts for ammo I'm buying it left and right. None on line all local sources. The only type of ammo that seems to be a problem is 22 LR and 45 acp.

Can't get anything out here. No .17HMR, no .22, no 9mm, no .223, no 30-30...

No handgun ammunition at all.

My local Wal-mart was out of 12 Gauge shotshells!

They had some slugs and buckshot, but #3 on down was MIA.

I scrounged around and got enough #5 and #6 to do some squirrel hunting...but just barely.

Bass Pro has plenty of 30-.06 and .270...and some of the more esoteric rounds, but they are pretty tapped out.

I just bought two boxes of 9 mm. today and they have plenty
Here you go one of my local sources. Less than a mile and a half from my house.

Dean's Gun Shop

 

[JoeB131]

[


Collectivist governments (like you wish to impose) have killed more than 100 million people in the last century. Why do you wish to make their job easier? Oh yeah, that's right......you really don't care that people die. In fact, you want LOTS of people to die. Otherwise you would be anti-abortion.

See how that logic stream of yours fails?

Yeah, you managed to shove all the Wingnut crazy into one paragraph.

Incidently, besides the crazy "100 million number", probably nowhere near, the countries you are talking about were going about the business of killing each other long before they decided what form of economy they were going to have.

The Russians had been at war for a decade before the Communists won. The Chinese had pretty much been going non-stop war since 1911 and intermitantly since the early 1900's.

it was that too many people in those situations had guns, not that there weren't enough guns, you see.

 

[JoeB131]

I do love how they cherry pick the information about Japan.

Yes, a country that has such institutions as "Kamikazes" and "Hari-Kiri" in their history are more likely to have a flippant attitude towards suicide.

Talk about cherry picking...you fucking bigot. All warrior societies have a history of similar practices and sentiments. YOU are cherry picking to justify your ignorance and fundamental racist attitude.

Can you please point out a nation that flew planes loaded with bombs into ships?

Um. No. You can't. Because suicide is a sin in Western cultures. Thanks for admitting that.

Japan has "Sucide forests", places where they have to patrol regularly to find dead bodies.

Now, great culture, wonderful people, but they don't see suicide the way Americans see it.

 

[Unkotare]

I do love how they cherry pick the information about Japan.

Yes, a country that has such institutions as "Kamikazes" and "Hari-Kiri" in their history are more likely to have a flippant attitude towards suicide.

Talk about cherry picking...you fucking bigot. All warrior societies have a history of similar practices and sentiments. YOU are cherry picking to justify your ignorance and fundamental racist attitude.

Can you please point out a nation that flew planes loaded with bombs into ships? .

Yes, Nazi Germany for one, though they mostly targeted bridges.

You're an ignorant racist.

 

[Unkotare]

Now, great culture, wonderful people, but they don't see suicide the way Americans see it.

Americans see self-sacrifice for the good of country, unit, buddy, or family to be heroic just like every other warrior society always has. "Death before dishonor" is an admired sentiment among American fighting men and women to this day. We have expressions about 'falling on one's sword' that reflect the long history of such sentiment in Western culture. Declaring oneself ready to take a bullet for someone is the ultimate expression of loyalty IN AMERICA - TODAY. Soldiers who throw themselves on a live grenade or other explosive (as has sadly happened many times in recent wars) sacrificing themselves and saving their fellows are rightly considered heroes, not sinners. Wonder why so many Congressional Medals of Honor are awarded posthumously? Remember the battle at Thermopylae? Bunker Hill? The Battle of the Bulge? The list could go on and on.

You are wrong, and you are an ignorant, racist fuckhole.

 

[westwall]

[


Collectivist governments (like you wish to impose) have killed more than 100 million people in the last century. Why do you wish to make their job easier? Oh yeah, that's right......you really don't care that people die. In fact, you want LOTS of people to die. Otherwise you would be anti-abortion.

See how that logic stream of yours fails?

Yeah, you managed to shove all the Wingnut crazy into one paragraph.

Incidently, besides the crazy "100 million number", probably nowhere near, the countries you are talking about were going about the business of killing each other long before they decided what form of economy they were going to have.

The Russians had been at war for a decade before the Communists won. The Chinese had pretty much been going non-stop war since 1911 and intermitantly since the early 1900's.

it was that too many people in those situations had guns, not that there weren't enough guns, you see.

There were NO GUNS in the hands of the citzenry, so the governments were able to kill whomever, and however many they wished to. Do try and educate yourself m'kay....


Figures and Tables
Forward (by Irving Louis Horowitz)
Preface
Acknowledgments
1. 169,202,000 Murdered: Summary and Conclusions [20th Century Democide]


I BACKGROUND
2. The New Concept of Democide [Definition of Democide]
3. Over 133,147,000 Murdered: Pre-Twentieth Century Democide

II 128,168,000 VICTIMS: THE DEKA-MEGAMURDERERS
4. 61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State
5. 35,236,000 Murdered: The Communist Chinese Ant Hill
6. 20,946,000 Murdered: The Nazi Genocide State
7. 10,214,000 Murdered: The Depraved Nationalist Regime

III 19,178,000 VICTIMS: THE LESSER MEGA-MURDERERS
8. 5,964,000 Murdered: Japan's Savage Military
9. 2,035,000 Murdered: The Khmer Rouge Hell State
10. 1,883,000 Murdered: Turkey's Genocidal Purges
11. 1,670,000 Murdered: The Vietnamese War State
12. 1,585,000 Murdered: Poland's Ethnic Cleansing
13. 1,503,000 Murdered: The Pakistani Cutthroat State
14. 1,072,000 Murdered: Tito's Slaughterhouse


DEATH BY GOVERNMENT: GENOCIDE AND MASS MURDER

 

[westwall]

I do love how they cherry pick the information about Japan.

Yes, a country that has such institutions as "Kamikazes" and "Hari-Kiri" in their history are more likely to have a flippant attitude towards suicide.

Talk about cherry picking...you fucking bigot. All warrior societies have a history of similar practices and sentiments. YOU are cherry picking to justify your ignorance and fundamental racist attitude.

Can you please point out a nation that flew planes loaded with bombs into ships?

Um. No. You can't. Because suicide is a sin in Western cultures. Thanks for admitting that.

Japan has "Sucide forests", places where they have to patrol regularly to find dead bodies.

Now, great culture, wonderful people, but they don't see suicide the way Americans see it.

Ignorant is no way to go through life jackass. I mean really, your complete lack of historical knowledge is almost as bad as saggy's knowledge of the geography of his supposed homeland...

Below is the proposal for manned V-1's. The Germans DID fly bombed up FW-190's into bridges against the Soviet forces in east Germany.



One of the most hushed up secrets of the war, back before the surrender of Japan, was the damage and inconvenience caused by the suicide-bent Kamikaze pilots of the Japanese Air Force. Troops who sailed to the invasion of Okinawa remember the Baka bomb, the winged aerial torpedo with its human pilot. But not until the end of the war, when intelligence officers began nosing around in the former Nazi domain, was it disclosed that a small group of fanatical Nazis had also organized a suicide corps for the purpose of breaking up the seaborne invasion of the continent with a German version of the Japanese Baka.

In fact, there is much evidence to indicate that the Nazi suicidists were laying their plans long before their Japanese allies conceived the idea for this unconventional tactic. Only bureaucratic inefficiency, and disinterest in official circles as high as Hitler himself, forstalled the appearance of Nazi Kamikazes in the air over Normandy on D-day.

The inception of this strange project goes back to the year 1943, when the fortunes of war were beginning to turn against the hitherto victorious German Army. At that time, many people in Germany were beginning to see that the Fatherland would ultimately go down to defeat, unless some miraculous event produced a severe set-back to the Allied cause. Among these thinking Germans was a small group of idealists who were determined to do something about it. These people, who at first numbered no more than 30 or 40 persons, came together from all walks of life. Some of them were from the Army, others were civilians, and one of the leaders was a well-known German woman flyer.

It was the common belief of these people that the war was lost unless a most decisive blow could be struck against the Allies. They believed that this could only be accomplished by the complete disruption of the eventual Allied assault upon the continent, thus convincing the Allied leaders that Germany was secure and impregnable within her "fortress Europe."





Lone Sentry: The German Kamikazes (WWII U.S. Intelligence Bulletin, June 1946)

 

[Unkotare]

Looks like comrade JoeB has finally been shamed into silence. I'm sure his lack of character won't allow the condition to persist for too long though.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Talk about cherry picking...you fucking bigot. All warrior societies have a history of similar practices and sentiments. YOU are cherry picking to justify your ignorance and fundamental racist attitude.

Can you please point out a nation that flew planes loaded with bombs into ships? .

Yes, Nazi Germany for one, though they mostly targeted bridges.

You're an ignorant racist.

I think what you just did there is called 'synecdoche'; to be more thorough, you should have included 'sociopathic', 'perverted', 'but kissing', 'self-centered', 'mentally challenged', 'shit head', 'dumb as a bag of cold cow turds'.

That would provide more of the complete picture.

 

[JimBowie1958]

Looks like comrade JoeB has finally been shamed into silence. I'm sure his lack of character won't allow the condition to persist for too long though.

If only it were possible.

You cant get blood from a turnip, and no shame from Joe Bastardo.

 

[Meister]

1970 total US Households = 63,401
2013 total US households = 125,000 (extrapolated from 2002 data)
1970 50% of households had guns = 31,700 families had guns
2013 34% of households had guns = 42,500 families had guns

Simple math, really.

Have you tried to buy ammo lately? Shheeeesh, I had to wait 2 weeks to pick up some 45-70's.....this was at Cabelas.....4 boxes came in and I picked up 3 of them, left one for seed.
I tried to get the ammo at other sporting goods stores and online, they all were backlogged.

Yes, we have less households owning guns these days.
I think there are still plenty that have the guns.

Do you have primitive hunting season up there...or do you just like the 45-70 Govt.?

I have an 1883 Springfield "trapdoor" that some of my friends and I get out and shoot. I have to use the cowboy load because the brass jacket would scrape up the bore pretty good if used.

 

[Saigon]

Ernie

NO!!! the number of households owning guns has gone up.

Proof? Links?

1970 total US Households = 63,401
2013 total US households = 125,000 (extrapolated from 2002 data)
1970 50% of households had guns = 31,700 families had guns
2013 34% of households had guns = 42,500 families had guns

Simple math, really.

Ah, ok, now I get your point.

I don't disagree - but of course that does not mean that the % of homes with a gun has not gone down. It's just a different way of looking at the numbers.


btw. I generally quote the sentence of your post that I am referring to in order to save space and provide clarity. It is not my intention to change meaning, and of course anyone can scroll back andread you whole post if they wish.

 

[Ernie S.]

Ernie




Proof? Links?

1970 total US Households = 63,401
2013 total US households = 125,000 (extrapolated from 2002 data)
1970 50% of households had guns = 31,700 families had guns
2013 34% of households had guns = 42,500 families had guns

Simple math, really.

Have you tried to buy ammo lately? Shheeeesh, I had to wait 2 weeks to pick up some 45-70's.....this was at Cabelas.....4 boxes came in and I picked up 3 of them, left one for seed.
I tried to get the ammo at other sporting goods stores and online, they all were backlogged.

Yes, we have less households owning guns these days.
I think there are still plenty that have the guns.

Walmart didn't even have .22 LR last time I was in there They had some 6 shot in 20 gauge and a couple boxes of .25 that have probably been there since the Civil War.

 

[Saigon]

This argument is undermined by the UK suicide rates which after being on the decline, spiked AFTER the 1997 Firearms Act, and remained at that heightened level for 4 years...resuming the decline at a similar rate as before the 1997 confiscation.
..

That could be - I haven't looked at the issue at all, but if so, it would match the spike in UK homicide rates.

I don't know why that spike occurred in either case (possibly as a result of a surge in salesbefore the ban took effect?), but what is clear is that it was a short-term spike, followed by a steady fall in numbers.

The result being that the UK and Australia have less suicides now than before the legislation was passed.

 

[westwall]

This argument is undermined by the UK suicide rates which after being on the decline, spiked AFTER the 1997 Firearms Act, and remained at that heightened level for 4 years...resuming the decline at a similar rate as before the 1997 confiscation.
..

That could be - I haven't looked at the issue at all, but if so, it would match the spike in UK homicide rates.

I don't know why that spike occurred in either case (possibly as a result of a surge in salesbefore the ban took effect?), but what is clear is that it was a short-term spike, followed by a steady fall in numbers.

The result being that the UK and Australia have less suicides now than before the legislation was passed.

Guns were NOT grandfathered in the UK. You had to render them inoperative or turn them over to the authorities. The reason why the homicide rate spiked is because not only did the means to defend oneself no longer exist but if you took a weapon away from a bad guy and used it on him, you would be charged with murder as has happened on more than one occasion.

 

[JoeB131]

Now, great culture, wonderful people, but they don't see suicide the way Americans see it.

Americans see self-sacrifice for the good of country, unit, buddy, or family to be heroic just like every other warrior society always has. "Death before dishonor" is an admired sentiment among American fighting men and women to this day. We have expressions about 'falling on one's sword' that reflect the long history of such sentiment in Western culture. Declaring oneself ready to take a bullet for someone is the ultimate expression of loyalty IN AMERICA - TODAY. Soldiers who throw themselves on a live grenade or other explosive (as has sadly happened many times in recent wars) sacrificing themselves and saving their fellows are rightly considered heroes, not sinners. Wonder why so many Congressional Medals of Honor are awarded posthumously? Remember the battle at Thermopylae? Bunker Hill? The Battle of the Bulge? The list could go on and on.

You are wrong, and you are an ignorant, racist fuckhole.

Yeah, the list can go on, but if these were your best examples, you are kind of losing the argument.

Big difference between a spur of the moment act of bravery and deliberately taking a suicidal action in a war you already know is lost.

More to the point, the fact is, Japan does have the HIGHEST SUICIDE RATE amongst industrialized countries. No one else here is really disputing this. The grownups are discussing the role of guns in this matter.

 

[JoeB131]

This argument is undermined by the UK suicide rates which after being on the decline, spiked AFTER the 1997 Firearms Act, and remained at that heightened level for 4 years...resuming the decline at a similar rate as before the 1997 confiscation.
..

That could be - I haven't looked at the issue at all, but if so, it would match the spike in UK homicide rates.

I don't know why that spike occurred in either case (possibly as a result of a surge in salesbefore the ban took effect?), but what is clear is that it was a short-term spike, followed by a steady fall in numbers.

The result being that the UK and Australia have less suicides now than before the legislation was passed.

Guns were NOT grandfathered in the UK. You had to render them inoperative or turn them over to the authorities. The reason why the homicide rate spiked is because not only did the means to defend oneself no longer exist but if you took a weapon away from a bad guy and used it on him, you would be charged with murder as has happened on more than one occasion.

Again, the UK had 600 murders last year and we had 15,000.

I find it hilarous you are even trying to make this argument.

 

[Unkotare]

Now, great culture, wonderful people, but they don't see suicide the way Americans see it.

Americans see self-sacrifice for the good of country, unit, buddy, or family to be heroic just like every other warrior society always has. "Death before dishonor" is an admired sentiment among American fighting men and women to this day. We have expressions about 'falling on one's sword' that reflect the long history of such sentiment in Western culture. Declaring oneself ready to take a bullet for someone is the ultimate expression of loyalty IN AMERICA - TODAY. Soldiers who throw themselves on a live grenade or other explosive (as has sadly happened many times in recent wars) sacrificing themselves and saving their fellows are rightly considered heroes, not sinners. Wonder why so many Congressional Medals of Honor are awarded posthumously? Remember the battle at Thermopylae? Bunker Hill? The Battle of the Bulge? The list could go on and on.

You are wrong, and you are an ignorant, racist fuckhole.

Yeah, the list can go on, but if these were your best examples, you are kind of losing the argument.

Big difference between a spur of the moment act of bravery and deliberately taking a suicidal action in a war you already know is lost.

There was nothing "spur of the moment" about the battles I mentioned, and as I said there are many more. The men at the Alamo had lots of time to consider what was about to happen. You are wrong, ignorant, and racist to the bone.

 

[JoeB131]

Generally, the guys at the Alamo were a bunch of asshole slave holders who were trying to steal land from Mexico.

Nothing sympathetic about them at all.