Obama and Biden very anti Gun owner, and Gun Rights .

[Silence]

I've never heard such absurd reasoning!

So we don't have cattle stealing anymore, therefore, we live in a utopian society, free of danger from robbers, rapists, nut cases on PCP, and just general mayhem.

Do you live in a protective bubble?

I would assume that you are also in the same league as Cheney.............Right? As you don't think any of us are any more capable than him? Right?

Or are you above all of this human stupidity, looking down from your safe, knowledgeable, sane, and sanitary world of safety?

Actually it's perfect logic if you look at gun statistics.

How many citizens do you think actually use their guns to protect themselves? not many. statistics show that you are much more likely to have your own gun used against you than you are to actually fend off an intruder in your home.

I don't equate Dick with regular Americans and certainly not myself that's for sure. If you recognize yourself in that behavior then sorry for your luck I guess. Dick shot a man in the face who he knew was there, who he obviously could see at the time and he acted like he didn't understand what the big deal was.

As for my protective bubble? no such bubble here my friend but I certainly don't ascribe to the notion that I have the skills necessary to actually pull a gun and use it on another person, especially in a high stress situation. I also don't think the world is full of evil people looking to do me in in spite of what the Repugs would have me believe

My best reason for believing in gun control is I have a child and no home with a child should have a gun in it IMO.

 

[Ninja]

How many citizens do you think actually use their guns to protect themselves? not many.

Oh, somewhere between 600,000 to 1 million per year:

Kleck's "Guns and Violence: Summary"

Were the Kerry trolls this collectively dense in 2004?

 

[editec]

MAINE...hmmm...let's talk about the Pacific Northwest which has millions and millions of acres of forests which were effectively shut down by Jimmy Carter, and even further by Bill Clinton in his infinite wisdom. The economy of Oregon, Washington, Montana, Idaho were DEVASTATED.

That's the problem with elitists and easterners. You think the world ends at the end of your street.

Oh, please... are you really trying to support your case based on some goofy appeal to regional chavinism?

No, I'm just pointing out the falicy of your argument that the environmentalists are the root source of the problem, sport.

Plenty of trees here... all to legal to cut and everything...nobody's spiking them. The federal and state government doesn't control our forests here since most of them are privately owned.

But the number of woodmen in Maine is about 10% what it was twenty or thirty years back.

And it's not just because of increased efficiency, either.

Less timber is being cut because the paper industry is faltering.

 

[Silence]

Oh, somewhere between 600,000 to 1 million per year:

It's so cute how you use an article from 1994

I'm not against gun ownership at all. Hey if you want to own a gun more power to ya. But there should be background checks, waiting periods and there should be a ban on assault rifles and other weapons that serve no purpose except to "hunt" people.

The following statistics should also be noted:

Firearm-related crime has plummeted since 1993, then slightly increased in 2005

Nonfatal firearm crime rates have declined since 1994, before increasing in 2005.

After 1996, less than 10% of nonfatal violent crimes involved firearm.

THe Brady Bill went into effect Feb 28, 1994 - coincidence? I think not

 

[Ninja]

I chose the 1994 article because you don't have access to the same peer-reviewed scholarly journals that I do, so I can't post links.

You made the claim that "not many" citizens use guns is self-defense.

The burden of proof therefore lies with you, yet you've provided none.

Most estimates are far higher than your pious recitation of conventional wisdom states.

BTW I don't care what your personal views of guns are. I care that you spread misinformation and think that you can get away with it.

 

[Ninja]

I'm not against gun ownership at all.

Of course you aren't

But there should be background checks

There are.

waiting periods

There are.

and there should be a ban on assault rifles and other weapons that serve no purpose except to "hunt" people.

Yep. Gotta keep bayonet lugs off of our streets - what with the recent rash of drive-by bayonettings and all

The following statistics should also be noted:

Firearm-related crime has plummeted since 1993, then slightly increased in 2005

Nonfatal firearm crime rates have declined since 1994, before increasing in 2005.

After 1996, less than 10% of nonfatal violent crimes involved firearm.

THe Brady Bill went into effect Feb 28, 1994 - coincidence? I think not

The decrease in crime you're referencing started before the AWB and The Brady Bill were signed by President Clinton.

But since you don't think the connection you're making is a "coincidence" go ahead and explain how restrictions on collapsible buttstocks, $0.99 plastic pistol grips, and flash hiders caused the crime rate to retroactively drop in the '90s.

I won't hold my breath

 

[strollingbones]

Quick hide the beer!!! Cheney's going hunting again!

i am like kirk out in the country....i need my gun for self protestion or would you rather i wait the 20 minutes it takes leo's to get here....nope i will take my rights of self protection over your paranoia....have you ever held or fired a weapon? other than your mouth?

 

[Silence]

The decrease could also be attributed to the healthy economy. Not as many people desparate and miserable in the 90s under Clinton. Increase in 2005 under Bush...hmmmm

 

[Ninja]

The decrease could also be attributed to the healthy economy.

Bingo.

You'll have a much easier time tying the crime rate to the economy than to restrictions on bayonet lugs, collapsible buttstocks, $0.99 pieces of plastic, flash hiders, and barrel shrouds.

 

[busara]

The decrease could also be attributed to the healthy economy. Not as many people desparate and miserable in the 90s under Clinton. Increase in 2005 under Bush...hmmmm

actually, it isnt certain that crime and economic health are related.

"There's no iron law linking [the economy and crime]," said UCLA criminal justice professor Eric Monkkonen. "This recession could see a crime wave or could not see a crime wave. It could promote crime, but it could be 15 years from now."


Indeed, crime experts are cautious about blaming the recent increase in homicides in some major cities on the economic downturn or any other specific factor.

They need only look to history to see that crime rates are often unpredictable. During the Great Depression, for example, crime went up for two years as poverty and desperation ran rampant among the American people, but then fell through the remainder of that era.

ABC News: Will Recession Make Cities Dangerous Again?

 

[editec]

The most obvious correlation to crime and poverty is when you have entrenched poverty among young men.

Failing to find anything truly productive they can do with themselves, far too many of them turn to activities sociopathic to fill that void in their lives and their pocketbooks.


Human nature being what it is, when society breaks down, it's usually the young with no avenues of escaping that poverty who start breaking down the society around them. A society which is working okay for the rest of us, but not for them is one they will prey upon.

Hey, why do you all think living in ghettos is such a nightmare for everyone concerned? High unemployment...an idle hand is the devils's plaything and all that.

When things get especially really bad, as it appears to be in now many places in America, even kids who'd might otherwise escape that trap of povety find they have to join the sociopthic gangs that dominate their neighborhoods.

Hence many otherwise decent kids inevitably end up ruining their slim chance to get out and improve themselves, too, because they end up with records.

Poverty is a vicious cycle which reinforces itself and expands that circle of poverty to include even the productive if it is left unchecked, folks.

While there is no absolute solution to poverty, there are certainly steps we can take to mitigate its toxic effect on our society.

Or we can just say, to hell with them and build more prisons.

And the fact that we spend enough on every prisoner as it would cost us to send them to college can just be ignored until we simply cannot afford them anymore.



We've got 2,000,000 men in prison now, and that's not solving things.

Given that prisons make people even more angry and sociopathic, that fact is probably just making it worse for us in the future.

 

[busara]

hey editec, you ever read the report about how legalized abortion helped lower crime?

 

[52ndStreet]

Actually it's perfect logic if you look at gun statistics.

How many citizens do you think actually use their guns to protect themselves? not many. statistics show that you are much more likely to have your own gun used against you than you are to actually fend off an intruder in your home.

I don't equate Dick with regular Americans and certainly not myself that's for sure. If you recognize yourself in that behavior then sorry for your luck I guess. Dick shot a man in the face who he knew was there, who he obviously could see at the time and he acted like he didn't understand what the big deal was.

As for my protective bubble? no such bubble here my friend but I certainly don't ascribe to the notion that I have the skills necessary to actually pull a gun and use it on another person, especially in a high stress situation. I also don't think the world is full of evil people looking to do me in in spite of what the Repugs would have me believe

My best reason for believing in gun control is I have a child and no home with a child should have a gun in it IMO.

What about when a Rapist,homo,child molester,murderer psychopath,criminally insane, invades your home with a Gun to attacks you, your wife and your child.And you as the man
of the house is unarmed without a Gun, because of your insane illogical Gun control logic, is killed and victimized by this crazed Armed person.How will you feel about Gun control after being victimized by a armed criminal?.

 

[Ravi]

What about when a Rapist,homo,child molester,murderer psychopath, invades your home with a Gun to attacks you, your wife and your child.And you as the man
of the house is unarmed without a Gun, because of your insane illogical Gun control logic, is killed and victimized by this crazed Armed person.How will you feel about Gun control after being victimized by a armed criminal?.

I thought you were in prison, my bad.

Funny to note that you fear homos.

 

[busara]

What about when a Rapist,homo,child molester,murderer psychopath, invades your home with a Gun to attacks you, your wife and your child.And you as the man
of the house is unarmed without a Gun, because of your insane illogical Gun control logic, is killed and victimized by this crazed Armed person.How will you feel about Gun control after being victimized by a armed criminal?.

you hear the man enter downstairs, so you jump out of bed to get your gun from small safe in your room. as you fumble with the combination, you wonder why you kept it in the safe in the first place, and you realize it is to keep it away from your 4 year old son. the killer breaks into your room as you get the safe open, but it is too late. he sees you lifting your gun, and he fires his.

scary stories arent an effective means of proving your point

 

[Chris]

What about when a Rapist,homo,child molester,murderer psychopath,criminally insane, invades your home with a Gun to attacks you, your wife and your child.And you as the man
of the house is unarmed without a Gun, because of your insane illogical Gun control logic, is killed and victimized by this crazed Armed person.How will you feel about Gun control after being victimized by a armed criminal?.

Your wife and child are much more likely to be attacked by you than a criminal, and there are other ways of securing your home other than owning a gun.

 

[52ndStreet]

Your wife and child are much more likely to be attacked by you than a criminal, and there are other ways of securing your home other than owning a gun.

Well, I never attacked my wife, and I do prefer to own a Gun, or a fully automatic assault Rifle, and I don't want any Democrats denying me of that right.! or telling what I can or can not Have !!

 

[Chris]

Well, I never attacked my wife, and I do prefer to own a Gun, or a fully automatic assault Rifle, and I don't want any Democrats denying me of that right.! or telling what I can or can not Have !!

Most gun deaths occur when people kill themselves or a member of their family, so your gun is more of a threat to your loved ones than to any criminal.

But no one is going to take your gun away. We lead the developed world in gun deaths, one million since 1960, so we could use more sensible gun control laws. It won't happen though, mainly because of ignorant people like you.

 

[Eightball]

Your wife and child are much more likely to be attacked by you than a criminal, and there are other ways of securing your home other than owning a gun.

By the way, that above reply is totally showing disrespect for your fellow forum member. To infer or give in response that he would be the more likely perpetrator is mean-spirited answer, devoid of any common respect. In essence your just playing around toying with those that seriously rebuttal your stance.

To the board, your replies are constant deflection.

Folks here ask you what you would do under these circumstances, and you quote statistics, and won't answer how you would face this possible life/death scenario.

Please, give us a good alternative.......as you and I know that criminals aren't going to give up their guns/knives or mental behaviour because you and me give up our weapons of defense.

Your side or cause or whatever is looking pretty lame, as you won't "own up" and just give a good alternative to a life and death situation where one must defend oneself from impending danger to one's life in their home/abode.

 

[Inferno]

I don't own a gun. I won't own a gu. I don't think anyone should own a gun. I think they should be melted down and made into something useful. A gun means what it says. It is about death or injury. In a life or death situation I wouldn't use a gun anyway. I don't think that guns do that much in life or death situations anyway. I don't think that they acually prevent that many crimes. I know that legally purchased guns fall into the hands of criminals all the time. Then they are illegal guns used in crime. Then the bad people have even more guns.

I like the way Obama and Biden feel about guns.