Odds of WWIII

[Silver Cat]

Once again you show it is impossible for you to put up a post without lyng.

Gorbachev replied: “The topic of ‘NATO expansion’ was not discussed at all, and it wasn’t brought up in those years. … Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATO’s military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Baker’s statement was made in that context… Everything that could have been and needed to be done to solidify that political obligation was done. And fulfilled.”

Did NATO Promise Not to Enlarge? Gorbachev Says "No" | Brookings

Russian President Vladimir Putin has made it well known his antipathy towards NATO, claiming the Alliance took advantage of Russian weakness after the collapse of the Soviet Union in violation of promises allegedly made to Moscow by Western leaders. Steven Pifer argues that no such promises were...

www.brookings.edu

The statement "no inch eastward" was made. Gorbatchev doesn't live in Russia anymore, and his words doesn't means much.
Anyway, it doesn't matter now if it was a misunderstanding, an evil will or just stupidity - the NATO expansion terminated any hope for a long-standing peace in Europe.

 

[toomuchtime_]

The statement "no inch eastward" was made. Gorbatchev doesn't live in Russia anymore, and his words doesn't means much.
Anyway, it doesn't matter now if it was a misunderstanding, an evil will or just stupidity - the NATO expansion terminated any hope for a long-standing peace in Europe.

If promises weren't made to Gorbachev, they weren't made since he made all the decisions in those negotiations. There was no misunderstanding, Putin simply lied about it. What you call "NATO expansion" was the result of former soviet states clamoring to be members of NATO after being held captive by Russia for 45 years after WWII. There was no plot against Russia, Putin is pissed because NATO has spoiled his plans to recapture these states.

 

[Silver Cat]

If promises weren't made to Gorbachev, they weren't made since he made all the decisions in those negotiations. There was no misunderstanding, Putin simply lied about it. What you call "NATO expansion" was the result of former soviet states clamoring to be members of NATO after being held captive by Russia for 45 years after WWII. There was no plot against Russia, Putin is pissed because NATO has spoiled his plans to recapture these states.

The words were said, and the words meant possibility of the peace. It's not about Putin's personality or his personal wishes at all. The USA got Poland but lost Russia. And it's the really inadequate exchange.

 

[Billo_Really]

Ukraine is lost, there is just no getting around it.

Given the Kamikaze like devotion to the Ukrainian Money Laundering Operation, there is just no possibility that the US (Obama, Biden Body Double, Nuland, Blinken, McConnell, McCarthy, et. al.) can admit a mistake and make peace. The Biden Body Doubles have already started to campaign!

The only course of action is to double down on a losing hand. There is no possibility that the democrat Party can campaign on: we started by surrendering Afghanistan, and ending our first term surrendering Ukraine.

In March 2022, the USA killed a peace deal between Ukraine and Russia. Most recently Americans have been ordered to leave Belarus and Biden authoritized combat pay for Americans in Ukraine….WTF?

Are you a Russian troll?

 

[toomuchtime_]

The words were said, and the words meant possibility of the peace. It's not about Putin's personality or his personal wishes at all. The USA got Poland but lost Russia. And it's the really inadequate exchange.

Gorbachev has told the world what those words meant, and it was not that former soviet states could not join NATO. The very notion that former soviet states would have to ask Russia's approval to join NATO is an expression of Russia's imperialist ambitions. There can be no improvement in relations between Russia and Europe until Russia abandons its imperialist ambitions.

 

[Silver Cat]

Gorbachev has told the world what those words meant, and it was not that former soviet states could not join NATO.

Gorbachev can say now whatever his masters want. He is not in position to say anything for the Russian people.

The very notion that former soviet states would have to ask Russia's approval to join NATO is an expression of Russia's imperialist ambitions. There can be no improvement in relations between Russia and Europe until Russia abandons its imperialist ambitions.

Why not? Russia may crush Europe one more time and improve the relations unilateraly.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Gorbachev can say now whatever his masters want. He is not in position to say anything for the Russian people.


Why not? Russia may crush Europe one more time and improve the relations unilateraly.

So Russia will crush Europe with the second best army in Ukrainne?

 

[Silver Cat]

So Russia will crush Europe with the second best army in Ukrainne?

Highly likely - yes.

 

[Foxfyre]

Ukraine is lost, there is just no getting around it.

Given the Kamikaze like devotion to the Ukrainian Money Laundering Operation, there is just no possibility that the US (Obama, Biden Body Double, Nuland, Blinken, McConnell, McCarthy, et. al.) can admit a mistake and make peace. The Biden Body Doubles have already started to campaign!

The only course of action is to double down on a losing hand. There is no possibility that the democrat Party can campaign on: we started by surrendering Afghanistan, and ending our first term surrendering Ukraine.

In March 2022, the USA killed a peace deal between Ukraine and Russia. Most recently Americans have been ordered to leave Belarus and Biden authoritized combat pay for Americans in Ukraine….WTF?

Zelensky came to power promising to clean up the corruption in the Ukraine but there seems to be no evidence he even tried to do so. At the time Russia invaded the Ukraine, Russia and the Ukraine were consistently listed as the two most corrupt countries by a mile over No. Three.

So is the Ukraine any huge loss other than it can benefit and strengthen a corrupt Russia? Is it worth the cost in property and human lives to engage in what may be an exercise in futility? The practical and moral implications there have very blurred lines.

The Ukraine has been batted around among various powers for millenia but was considered a region of Russia for a very long time before the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991 when the Ukraine declared itself a separate sovereign country. An economically weakened Russia was powerless to prevent that at the time.

Perhaps Putin had legitimate reason to see the Ukraine as a threat, most especially if it joined NATO. Judging that is above my pay grade. Certainly the way Putin went about it can neither be condoned nor respected despite any motive.

But Donald Trump had us in a place closer to world peace than anything I have ever experienced in my lifetime. Biden has us back into an expensive and ever more costly war even if it is a proxy war against Russia.

It is difficult to find a lot of justification for that. And yes, especially if China, North Korea, Iran et al decide to proactively help Russia, it could escalate into WWIII. Donald Trump says he can end it quickly if he is put back into the White House. He doesn't make a lot of idle statements like that unless he means it. I don't know. I watch with interest.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Highly likely - yes.

If NATO weren't there and Russia could take on eastern European countries one at a time, it might score a few victories, but NATO is there and massively superior to Russia and that's why Putin is so angry.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Zelensky came to power promising to clean up the corruption in the Ukraine but there seems to be no evidence he even tried to do so. At the time Russia invaded the Ukraine, Russia and the Ukraine were consistently listed as the two most corrupt countries by a mile over No. Three.

So is the Ukraine any huge loss other than it can benefit and strengthen a corrupt Russia? Is it worth the cost in property and human lives to engage in what may be an exercise in futility? The practical and moral implications there have very blurred lines.

The Ukraine has been batted around among various powers for millenia but was considered a region of Russia for a very long time before the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991 when the Ukraine declared itself a separate sovereign country. An economically weakened Russia was powerless to prevent that at the time.

Perhaps Putin had legitimate reason to see the Ukraine as a threat, most especially if it joined NATO. Judging that is above my pay grade. Certainly the way Putin went about it can neither be condoned nor respected despite any motive.

But Donald Trump had us in a place closer to world peace than anything I have ever experienced in my lifetime. Biden has us back into an expensive and ever more costly war even if it is a proxy war against Russia.

It is difficult to find a lot of justification for that. And yes, especially if China, North Korea, Iran et al decide to proactively help Russia, it could escalate into WWIII. Donald Trump says he can end it quickly if he is put back into the White House. He doesn't make a lot of idle statements like that unless he means it. I don't know. I watch with interest.

So you are saying that when Trump failed to persuade Putin to stop violating the Intermediate Nuclear Forces treaty, and subsequently pulled the US out of the treaty, he was moving the world closer to peace?

 

[Foxfyre]

So you are saying that when Trump failed to persuade Putin to stop violating the Intermediate Nuclear Forces treaty, and subsequently pulled the US out of the treaty, he was moving the world closer to peace?

I didn't say that. Try attacking what I actually did say please.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

The only value Ukraine has is that it launders American taxpayer money into payments to the Biden crime family.

 

[toomuchtime_]

I didn't say that. Try attacking what I actually did say please.

You did say Trump brought the world closer to peace than any other time you can remember, but his failure to persuade Putin to stop violating the INF actually made the world more dangerous and brings into question if he has the ability to deal effectively with the situation in Ukraine.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Are you a Russian troll?

Clearly! Anyone outside of the Matrix is the enemy

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

So, WWIII is inevitable.

Evolution Demands That the Third World War Be Against the Third World

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

There are plenty of people who really want the war.

In America, People With Plenty Want This War

 

[sparky]

 

[Silver Cat]

If NATO weren't there and Russia could take on eastern European countries one at a time, it might score a few victories, but NATO is there and massively superior to Russia and that's why Putin is so angry.

No. NATO means the USA plus a bunch of parasites. And when we say the USA we means mostly our nuclear forces. NATO without the USA, or USA without nuclear weapons is nothing but a slice of easy meat. But after the recent decades of nucleophobic policy our nuclear forces got weak and obsolete, while the Russian have been preparing. The Russians got now the good chances to fight and win a nuclear war against the USA, and, therefore, eliminate NATO as a geopolitical force.
That's why the Russians, being under significant pressure created by simultaneously weak and aggressive NATO (specifically, by Obama-Biden fool team), preferred to attack first.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

View attachment 819065

Slim in Trim

They should have an Academy Award for bit parts.