OK! What if . . . . . . ?

[P F Tinmore]

You forgot the over 500 roadblocks and checkpoints "inside" the West Bank; Gazan air space and coastal waters; the Golan Heights and the 650 IDF attacks since the ceasefire that were in addition to the 29 responses to rocket fire, there would still be the conditioned mindset that the Pals are sub-human and you've done nothing wrong.

But to answer your question, if you did all that, plus the things you left out, then, if you did happen to get a rocket, the entire world community would be on your side and would have no problem with you seeking retribution for such attack.

The hardest problem for you to deal with, is this attitude that you have to give up everything to get nothing in return. All you're being asked to do, is honor international law and respect human rights. That's it!

End the occupation and blockade and you will have peace. After that, cut a deal with the PA to give those white trash settlers residence visa's, just like any other country in the world and train Hamas and PA security forces to protect them.

You forget that they reduced the numbers of successful suicide attacks to ZERO so they worked, and they are legal under the Geneva conventions.

Still waiting for evidence of these alleged breaches that only you know about.

Strange then that Israel did all this in 2005 in gaza and the world was just as vehement that Israel was wrong in returning the fire and should find another solution to the Palestinians terrorism.

Problem is Israel is already within the bounds of International law, and has one of the best civil rights records in the M.E.. So what more can they do. Again still waiting for a link to these alleged breaches of international laws and civil rights.

Done in 2005 and the violence escalated 500%, Where is your evidence that it will work 10 years later when the Palestinians themselves say it wont. Even when they say that getting all they demand will not stop the attacks of Israel as their only goal is the genocide of the Jews and the destruction of Israel

Done in 2005 and the violence escalated 500%,​

Yeah I hear that lie all the time.

Then why don't you disprove it using verifiable links. Israel announced its intentions to leave gaza and the Palestinians started to ramp up the attacks. In the end the difference between the numbers of attacks prior to the move and the numbers after the move showed an increase of 500%

Of course you won't watch it. Israel supporters prefer to remain stupid. Tomorrow you will come back with the same lies.

And how does this refute my words ?

 

[Phoenall]

Ending the occupation would only benefit about 1/3 of all Palestinians. What about the other 2/3?

Uh huh. Exactly as I thought. I still wouldn't be enough.

I knew I'd get you fucker to show your true colors. You do not want peace at all, you want the whole land and the Jews dead or gone.

How about a peace plan where "only" 2/3 of the Jews were kicked out of Israel?

Yes?
No?

NO why should theJews be kicked out of their country that was granted legally. No one is asking for 2/3 of the arab muslims to be kicked out of their countries as part of a peace plan are they ?

2/3 have already been kicked out and not allowed to return.

When did this happen and who kicked them out ?

You forget that they reduced the numbers of successful suicide attacks to ZERO so they worked, and they are legal under the Geneva conventions.

Still waiting for evidence of these alleged breaches that only you know about.

Strange then that Israel did all this in 2005 in gaza and the world was just as vehement that Israel was wrong in returning the fire and should find another solution to the Palestinians terrorism.

Problem is Israel is already within the bounds of International law, and has one of the best civil rights records in the M.E.. So what more can they do. Again still waiting for a link to these alleged breaches of international laws and civil rights.

Done in 2005 and the violence escalated 500%, Where is your evidence that it will work 10 years later when the Palestinians themselves say it wont. Even when they say that getting all they demand will not stop the attacks of Israel as their only goal is the genocide of the Jews and the destruction of Israel

Done in 2005 and the violence escalated 500%,​

Yeah I hear that lie all the time.

Then why don't you disprove it using verifiable links. Israel announced its intentions to leave gaza and the Palestinians started to ramp up the attacks. In the end the difference between the numbers of attacks prior to the move and the numbers after the move showed an increase of 500%

Of course you won't watch it. Israel supporters prefer to remain stupid. Tomorrow you will come back with the same lies.

And how does this refute my words ?

So you cant answer, why aren't I surprised at your silence.............

 

[Humanity]

If the Israelis wanted peace they would not have blockaded Gaza. A blockade is an act of war. In any case it is Israel that fires first. Rockets are in response to Israeli attacks. You are brainwashed by Western media.

"The role of U.S. mass media – and Western media in general – as a tool for disseminating propaganda was first argued by Edward Herman and Noam Chomsky in their landmark 1988 book Manufacturing Consent: The Political Economy of the Mass Media. Their analysis reveals a media propaganda system based not on “formal censorship” but rather “by reliance on market forces, internalized assumptions, and self-censorship, and without significant overt coercion.”

"The propaganda narrative requires Palestinians always to be portrayed as the aggressors, and Israel as responding in self-defense. In the last decade, four military confrontations have taken place in Gaza – in 2006, 2008, 2012 and 2014 – in which Israel has invaded and carried out wholesale slaughter. Israel in each case has been the party who routinely and flagrantly violates the cease fires...."

Israeli Cease Fire Violations and Media Propaganda

Just more islamonazi propaganda from the catholic Nazi based on LIES

You do realise that many negotiations and prominent legal observers still considers Gaza as "occupied territory" don't you?!

And yet hamas swore that gaza was not occupied and had not been since 2005. So who is the better authority, and why does international law show that Israel does not occupy gaza

Which international law would that be then Phoney?

 

[Phoenall]

If the Israelis wanted peace they would not have blockaded Gaza. A blockade is an act of war. In any case it is Israel that fires first. Rockets are in response to Israeli attacks. You are brainwashed by Western media.

"The role of U.S. mass media – and Western media in general – as a tool for disseminating propaganda was first argued by Edward Herman and Noam Chomsky in their landmark 1988 book Manufacturing Consent: The Political Economy of the Mass Media. Their analysis reveals a media propaganda system based not on “formal censorship” but rather “by reliance on market forces, internalized assumptions, and self-censorship, and without significant overt coercion.”

"The propaganda narrative requires Palestinians always to be portrayed as the aggressors, and Israel as responding in self-defense. In the last decade, four military confrontations have taken place in Gaza – in 2006, 2008, 2012 and 2014 – in which Israel has invaded and carried out wholesale slaughter. Israel in each case has been the party who routinely and flagrantly violates the cease fires...."

Israeli Cease Fire Violations and Media Propaganda

Just more islamonazi propaganda from the catholic Nazi based on LIES

You do realise that many negotiations and prominent legal observers still considers Gaza as "occupied territory" don't you?!

And yet hamas swore that gaza was not occupied and had not been since 2005. So who is the better authority, and why does international law show that Israel does not occupy gaza

Which international law would that be then Phoney?

This one



Occupation and international humanitarian law: questions and answers

Article 42 of the 1907 Hague Regulations (HR) states that a " territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army. The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised. "



So is gaza completely under the control of the Israeli army 24/7, which would mean no tunnels, illegal rockets or attacks on Israel.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Ending the occupation would only benefit about 1/3 of all Palestinians. What about the other 2/3?

Uh huh. Exactly as I thought. I still wouldn't be enough.

I knew I'd get you fucker to show your true colors. You do not want peace at all, you want the whole land and the Jews dead or gone.

How about a peace plan where "only" 2/3 of the Jews were kicked out of Israel?

Yes?
No?

NO why should theJews be kicked out of their country that was granted legally. No one is asking for 2/3 of the arab muslims to be kicked out of their countries as part of a peace plan are they ?

2/3 have already been kicked out and not allowed to return.

When did this happen and who kicked them out ?

Done in 2005 and the violence escalated 500%,​

Yeah I hear that lie all the time.

Then why don't you disprove it using verifiable links. Israel announced its intentions to leave gaza and the Palestinians started to ramp up the attacks. In the end the difference between the numbers of attacks prior to the move and the numbers after the move showed an increase of 500%

Of course you won't watch it. Israel supporters prefer to remain stupid. Tomorrow you will come back with the same lies.

And how does this refute my words ?

So you cant answer, why aren't I surprised at your silence.............

Stupid question. You got to be how old and know nothing. That is quite remarkable.

 

[Hollie]

International Criminal Court, Office of the Prosecuter:

"26. Israel maintains that following the 2005 disengagement, it is no longer an occupying power in Gaza as it does not exercise effective control over the area.

27. However, the prevalent view within the international community is that Israel remains an occupying power in Gaza despite the 2005 disengagement. In general, this view is based on the scope and degree of control that Israel has retained over the territory of Gaza following the 2005 disengagement – including, inter alia, Israel’s exercise of control over border crossings, the territorial sea adjacent to the Gaza Strip, and the airspace of Gaza; its periodic military incursions within Gaza; its enforcement of no-go areas within Gaza near the border where Israeli settlements used to be; and its regulation of the local monetary market based on the Israeli currency and control of taxes and customs duties. The retention of such competences by Israel over the territory of Gaza even after the 2005 disengagement overall supports the conclusion that the authority retained by Israel amounts to effective control.

28. Although it no longer maintains a military presence in Gaza, Israel has not only shown the ability to conduct incursions into Gaza at will, but also expressly reserved the right to do so as required by military necessity. This consideration is potentially significant considering that there is support in international case law for the conclusion that it is not a prerequisite that a State maintain continuous presence in a territory in order to qualify as an occupying power. In particular, the ICTY has held that the law of occupation would also apply to areas where a state possesses “the capacity to send troops within a reasonable time to make the authority of the occupying power felt.” In this respect, it is also noted that the geographic proximity of the Gaza Strip to Israel potentially facilitates the ability of Israel to exercise effective control over the territory, despite the lack of a continuous military presence."


ICC - International Criminal Court : Home

The UN also rotates various islamo-fascist nations onto its "human rights" council, so let's not pretend we're referencing an objective agency.

 

[Humanity]

If the Israelis wanted peace they would not have blockaded Gaza. A blockade is an act of war. In any case it is Israel that fires first. Rockets are in response to Israeli attacks. You are brainwashed by Western media.

"The role of U.S. mass media – and Western media in general – as a tool for disseminating propaganda was first argued by Edward Herman and Noam Chomsky in their landmark 1988 book Manufacturing Consent: The Political Economy of the Mass Media. Their analysis reveals a media propaganda system based not on “formal censorship” but rather “by reliance on market forces, internalized assumptions, and self-censorship, and without significant overt coercion.”

"The propaganda narrative requires Palestinians always to be portrayed as the aggressors, and Israel as responding in self-defense. In the last decade, four military confrontations have taken place in Gaza – in 2006, 2008, 2012 and 2014 – in which Israel has invaded and carried out wholesale slaughter. Israel in each case has been the party who routinely and flagrantly violates the cease fires...."

Israeli Cease Fire Violations and Media Propaganda

Just more islamonazi propaganda from the catholic Nazi based on LIES

You do realise that many negotiations and prominent legal observers still considers Gaza as "occupied territory" don't you?!

And yet hamas swore that gaza was not occupied and had not been since 2005. So who is the better authority, and why does international law show that Israel does not occupy gaza

Which international law would that be then Phoney?

This one



Occupation and international humanitarian law: questions and answers

Article 42 of the 1907 Hague Regulations (HR) states that a " territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army. The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised. "



So is gaza completely under the control of the Israeli army 24/7, which would mean no tunnels, illegal rockets or attacks on Israel.

Gaza is not "completely" under the control of Israel... But then that is NOT a stipulation within your linked article is it!

However, as you know, Israel controls Gazan air and sea plus it controls the movement in and out of Gaza, not just of Palestinians but also foreign nationals.

The UN and a significant number of countries still consider Gaza as occupied based upon the above facts.



Taking the cherry picked quote you have made from your linked article, it is very clear that Gazan territory is still occupied by Israel as it is Israel who continues to maintain control of air and sea.

Furthermore, quoting from your linked article, it is very clear that Israel breaks this law on a number of examples... I won't cherry pick them all as, undoutably, you have read the whole article so will know this as fact!

"The main rules of the law applicable in case of occupation state that:

• The occupant does not acquire sovereignty over the territory.
  
  
• Occupation is only a temporary situation, and the rights of the occupant are limited to the extent of that period.
• 
  
  
  
  
  

 

[Hollie]

Just making an observation here, but the only way to suppress the Islamic beast is through force of arms.


Hamas leader urges Palestinians to plunge “Knives in the Chests...

Speaking at a Gaza rally, former Hamas interior minister Fathi Hammad said that Allah had created Man “only to wage Jihad, only to move forward, only to plunge the knives in the chests and bellies of the enemies.” His address aired on the Hamas Al-Aqsa TV channel on October 19, 2015.

 

[RoccoR]

montelatici, et al,

This has yet to play out. They are using the concept of "indirect effective control" which presupposes that it enforces overall control over de facto local authorities. Israel does not control (long-arm or indirectly) HAMAs or any subdivision within Gaza. The fact that the IDF cannot enter on a moments notice to effective counter unlawful activity (crime suppression response time), or that the IDF is not capable of deterring War Crimes (crime suppression), means that there is no effective control.

Israel does not have "overall control over de facto local authorities or other organized groups."

International Committee of the Red Cross; Occupation and Other Forms of Administration of Foreign Territory

While discussing the characteristics of the notion of effective control, one expert brought up the possibility of enforcing “indirect effective control” or “long-arm occupation.” This means that a State would be an occupying power for the purposes of IHL when it enforced overall control over de facto local authorities or other organized groups that have effective control over a territory or part thereof. The situation in Nagorno-Karabakh was mentioned as an example of “long-arm occupation.”

This is a very different scenario then the case the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ITCY) faced in their deliberations.​

International Criminal Court, Office of the Prosecuter:

"26. Israel maintains that following the 2005 disengagement, it is no longer an occupying power in Gaza as it does not exercise effective control over the area.

27. However, the prevalent view within the international community is that Israel remains an occupying power in Gaza despite the 2005 disengagement. In general, this view is based on the scope and degree of control that Israel has retained over the territory of Gaza following the 2005 disengagement – including, inter alia, Israel’s exercise of control over border crossings, the territorial sea adjacent to the Gaza Strip, and the airspace of Gaza; its periodic military incursions within Gaza; its enforcement of no-go areas within Gaza near the border where Israeli settlements used to be; and its regulation of the local monetary market based on the Israeli currency and control of taxes and customs duties. The retention of such competences by Israel over the territory of Gaza even after the 2005 disengagement overall supports the conclusion that the authority retained by Israel amounts to effective control.

28. Although it no longer maintains a military presence in Gaza, Israel has not only shown the ability to conduct incursions into Gaza at will, but also expressly reserved the right to do so as required by military necessity. This consideration is potentially significant considering that there is support in international case law for the conclusion that it is not a prerequisite that a State maintain continuous presence in a territory in order to qualify as an occupying power. In particular, the ICTY has held that the law of occupation would also apply to areas where a state possesses “the capacity to send troops within a reasonable time to make the authority of the occupying power felt.” In this respect, it is also noted that the geographic proximity of the Gaza Strip to Israel potentially facilitates the ability of Israel to exercise effective control over the territory, despite the lack of a continuous military presence."

ICC - International Criminal Court : Home

(COMMENT)

But whether (or not) the ICC, or anyone else, rule as to the applicability of the traditional "Occupation" Zone criteria is not what interests me. What does interest me (something new for the ICC and UN) is "incitement to violence." The ICC is going to be under tremendous pressure to rule that Israel has effective control in Gaza even thouth

ICC-OTP-20151030-PR1165 Press Release 30/10/2015

The Prosecutor opened a preliminary examination of the situation in Palestine in January 2015. In this context, the Prosecutor stated that her Office will also examine whether any of the newly reported incidents of violence constitute crimes falling within the jurisdiction of the ICC, and for the same purpose, will continue to record any new instances of violence or incitement to violence that may occur in the future. She warned that anyone – on either side – who commits, orders, incites, encourages or contributes in any other way to the commission of crimes falling within the jurisdiction of the ICC is liable to prosecution either at the national level or at the Court.
​

• Israeli Official Points to ‘Incitement’ by Palestinians 2014

• Abbas calls for "war for Allah," and the West Bank erupts in violence 2015
​

Media outlets, controlled the the Palestinian Authority, have initiated a deliberate campaign to incite violence and disturbances against Israel and Settlers. This is not unlike the Jerusalem disturbances orchestrated by the Grand Mufti; with a slightly difference purpose. This is to assist the Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to convince the UN to establish and deploy some sort of new kind of Protective Service Unit. This is a ploy. To help Abbas try to put together support for a direct combat confrontation force to face the Israelis.

Even if the Israelis made a general withdraw to Area C, the Palestinians would not achieve their objective. The Palestinians have not negotiated a border. Thus they run into a problem in regards to the new withdrawal line.

Most Respectfully,
R​

 

[USAF 2023]

If the Israelis wanted peace they would not have blockaded Gaza. A blockade is an act of war. In any case it is Israel that fires first. Rockets are in response to Israeli attacks. You are brainwashed by Western media.

"The role of U.S. mass media – and Western media in general – as a tool for disseminating propaganda was first argued by Edward Herman and Noam Chomsky in their landmark 1988 book Manufacturing Consent: The Political Economy of the Mass Media. Their analysis reveals a media propaganda system based not on “formal censorship” but rather “by reliance on market forces, internalized assumptions, and self-censorship, and without significant overt coercion.”

"The propaganda narrative requires Palestinians always to be portrayed as the aggressors, and Israel as responding in self-defense. In the last decade, four military confrontations have taken place in Gaza – in 2006, 2008, 2012 and 2014 – in which Israel has invaded and carried out wholesale slaughter. Israel in each case has been the party who routinely and flagrantly violates the cease fires...."

Israeli Cease Fire Violations and Media Propaganda

I LOVE this answer !!! The Palestinians initiated the blockade by firing Rockets into Israel after Israel withdrew and continued to smuggle Weapons . THAT is an act of War !! You have just admitted the ARABS were the Agressors in the 67War by BLOCKING the Straits of Tiran and firing into Israel !!

 

[teddyearp]

Whats wrong with one state and equal rights?

I see no problem with that at all. After all, the Arabs that stayed in Israel and did not become part of the newly created (or want to be) 'Palestinian' identity do enjoy equal rights. They have members in the Knesset and on the Israeli Supreme court.

 

[teddyearp]

Mentions removed by Moderation. Makes sure it's not a "call-out" thread. OPs in this forum should not involve particular members. The rest is just fine.. ---- FlaCalTenn


Tell me honestly. If Israel were to totally leave the West Bank, evict and demolish their 'settlements' (but what about Hevron?), split Jerusalem (the old city) giving 'Palestine' the muslum and (eek) Christian quarters, retain the Jewish and Armernian ones and the Wall, the new city along the 'seam line', stop the border checkpoints all over Israel controlled borders of the Gaza strip and let 'Palestine' declare their independence; would their finally be peace?

No.

But, my Israeli acquaintance, would that be the fault of the Israeli's or the Pals?

 

[teddyearp]

In any deal, the Christians including the Armenians will want the Jewish squatters in Christian Jerusalem out.

Monti, your totally extreme ignorance is showing. But it is to be expected.

Please tell me exactly where the Jews are living in the Armenian quarter. Please show me exactly where there are Jewish 'squatters' in the Christian quarter. With pictures taken with your own camera. No bullshit. Just facts on the ground asshat.

 

[teddyearp]

What do you seriously see as a solution?

I'm going to butt into the middle of this and say this. Coyote, you know me to have tried to be impartial or at the least open minded, but! With the two faced actions of Abbas of late; on the one side inciting the Pals and on the other appealing to the ICC and the UN about the Israeli 'violence' of the last few weeks without claiming any Pal violence, or as if the Pals have been sitting innocently by and not doing a damn thing; I say FUCK IT!

 

[Coyote]

What do you seriously see as a solution?

I'm going to butt into the middle of this and say this. Coyote, you know me to have tried to be impartial or at the least open minded, but! With the two faced actions of Abbas of late; on the one side inciting the Pals and on the other appealing to the ICC and the UN about the Israeli 'violence' of the last few weeks without claiming any Pal violence, or as if the Pals have been sitting innocently by and not doing a damn thing; I say FUCK IT!

Meanwhile Netanyahu has been doing his own incitement.

 

[montelatici]

In any deal, the Christians including the Armenians will want the Jewish squatters in Christian Jerusalem out.

Monti, your totally extreme ignorance is showing. But it is to be expected.

Please tell me exactly where the Jews are living in the Armenian quarter. Please show me exactly where there are Jewish 'squatters' in the Christian quarter. With pictures taken with your own camera. No bullshit. Just facts on the ground asshat.

You do like to be humiliated, don't you. Even the Jewish Virtual Library confirms that as usual I am the purveyor of facts and you are one of the forum's bullshitters.

" The major part of the residential section was evacuated. Some were illegally appropriated by Jewish squatters."

Jerusalem's The Armenian Quarter | Jewish Virtual Library

 

[aris2chat]

In any deal, the Christians including the Armenians will want the Jewish squatters in Christian Jerusalem out.

Monti, your totally extreme ignorance is showing. But it is to be expected.

Please tell me exactly where the Jews are living in the Armenian quarter. Please show me exactly where there are Jewish 'squatters' in the Christian quarter. With pictures taken with your own camera. No bullshit. Just facts on the ground asshat.

>>According to the 1905 Ottoman census in the Old City, the Armenian Quarter had a population of 382, of which Armenians (121) comprised less than one-third (31.7%). Jews (127) made up 33.2%, Christians (94) 24.6% and Muslims (40) 10.5%.[60] The Jews, who numbered a little more than the Armenians, inhabited the eastern part of the Armenian Quarter, which in the second half of the nineteenth century, became the western part of the Jewish Quarter.[61]<<

 

[theliq]

What do you seriously see as a solution?

I'm going to butt into the middle of this and say this. Coyote, you know me to have tried to be impartial or at the least open minded, but! With the two faced actions of Abbas of late; on the one side inciting the Pals and on the other appealing to the ICC and the UN about the Israeli 'violence' of the last few weeks without claiming any Pal violence, or as if the Pals have been sitting innocently by and not doing a damn thing; I say FUCK IT!

I support the Opressed=Palestinians, Palestinians are fighting for Freedom.........Israel are their Opressors....You see Teddy why didn't the Jews fight their oppessors...The Germans.....you didn't ...you just took the German MONEY and WAR REPARATION,which Germany are still paying 70 years after the war...... You took a weak route and Slaughtered the INNOCENT PEACEFUL Palestinians.....AND STOLE THEIR LAND,and you are still are STEALING AND MURDERING .........Israel and Guys like you have no MORAL BACKBONE......NONE AT ALL,yet you arrogantly speak as if you have the Moral High Ground.......Your High Ground is infact the GUTTER....You are Morally BANKRUPT..steve......Give me reasons why Palestinians should trust you.....with your shameful history towards them.

 

[Billo_Really]

I see no problem with that at all. After all, the Arabs that stayed in Israel and did not become part of the newly created (or want to be) 'Palestinian' identity do enjoy equal rights. They have members in the Knesset and on the Israeli Supreme court.

Whatever the Palestinian's identify with, is none of your (or Israel's) god-damn business!

You have no right, denying them, they're rights. Period.

 

[Billo_Really]

This one



Occupation and international humanitarian law: questions and answers

Article 42 of the 1907 Hague Regulations (HR) states that a " territory is considered occupied when it is actually placed under the authority of the hostile army. The occupation extends only to the territory where such authority has been established and can be exercised. "

So is gaza completely under the control of the Israeli army 24/7, which would mean no tunnels, illegal rockets or attacks on Israel.

Israel has "effective control" over the entire area. They control 80% of what goes in to and out of Gaza. Gazans cannot leave by air or sea without Israeli permission. It is a prison.

It also satisfy's the laws of occupation.