Once again pointing out the elephant in the room

[Rustic]

I wonder what people in Somalia think of this discussion.

Ultimately any political system has to stand the tests of reality. Anarchy doesn't work. As there's no effective method of conflict resolution. And an anarchic civilization would be swallowed by a more centeralized one due to issues of specialization and focused goal making that anarchic civilizations just can't match.

Thus its relegated to communes that exist within a system of externally enforced laws, tiny blips in history, or the ivory tower of reality averse hypothetical.

Mandatory taxation and mandatory laws work. The system stands for centuries. Anarchy doesn't. Thus, in any reality based discussion of actual systems of governance, anarchy is moot. As its like a house made of wet spaghetti: it simply won't stand.

Mandatory anything does not work, see the third Reich

 

[Rustic]

My Dad was a volunteer fireman in my hometown for 20 years joining other responsible citizens!

That's great.

The future of humanity comes when we start doing good things for each other without the expectation of reward or the usage of violence.

They ain't really "volunteers ". The get paid . They also go through a bunch of training and use all kinds of equipment. Paid for by taxes .

How do YOU KNOW? Were your around in the early 1950s in the Midwest in a small town with population of less then 1,000?
And as far as getting paid"???? The only pay any volunteer fireman got was a burial check if killed in the course of fighting a fire!
You are insulting millions of volunteer firefighters over 100s of years with that stupid comment!

I know a bunch of volunteer fireman that's how the system works here. How was that insulting?

If you would quit falling down well you would know

 

[Skylar]

I wonder what people in Somalia think of this discussion.

Ultimately any political system has to stand the tests of reality. Anarchy doesn't work. As there's no effective method of conflict resolution. And an anarchic civilization would be swallowed by a more centeralized one due to issues of specialization and focused goal making that anarchic civilizations just can't match.

Thus its relegated to communes that exist within a system of externally enforced laws, tiny blips in history, or the ivory tower of reality averse hypothetical.

Mandatory taxation and mandatory laws work. The system stands for centuries. Anarchy doesn't. Thus, in any reality based discussion of actual systems of governance, anarchy is moot. As its like a house made of wet spaghetti: it simply won't stand.

Mandatory anything does not work, see the third Reich

Except when it does. We've had mandatory taxation since before we were a nation. More than 225 years.

Mandatory taxation and mandatory laws work very well. Which is why virtually every nation on earth uses them. Anarchy doesn't. Which is why almost no nation on earth uses it.

 

[HnL]

I wonder what people in Somalia think of this discussion.

You mean those living in an anocracy domininated by ruthless warlords, Islamic terror groups, weak administrative governments, and an abusive and corrupt federal government?

The same nation plagued by three wars and economic interventionism by foreign powers?

Yeah, the notion that Somalia is the byproduct of anarchy is ludicrous.

No, I mean the failed state without a functioning government bolstered by tax money of its citizens.

 

[Rustic]

I wonder what people in Somalia think of this discussion.

Ultimately any political system has to stand the tests of reality. Anarchy doesn't work. As there's no effective method of conflict resolution. And an anarchic civilization would be swallowed by a more centeralized one due to issues of specialization and focused goal making that anarchic civilizations just can't match.

Thus its relegated to communes that exist within a system of externally enforced laws, tiny blips in history, or the ivory tower of reality averse hypothetical.

Mandatory taxation and mandatory laws work. The system stands for centuries. Anarchy doesn't. Thus, in any reality based discussion of actual systems of governance, anarchy is moot. As its like a house made of wet spaghetti: it simply won't stand.

Mandatory anything does not work, see the third Reich

Except when it does. We've had mandatory taxation since before we were a nation. More than 225 years.

Mandatory taxation and mandatory laws work very well. Which is why virtually every nation on earth uses them. Anarchy doesn't. Which is why almost no nation on earth uses it.

Of course mandatory taxes and law's work good with irresponsible...
A large overbearing federal government breeds irresponsibility

 

[Onyx]

Theft is the unlawful seizure of property. There's nothing unlawful about taxes. Nixing your fundamental premise. As taxes aren't theft.

It is pretty obvious what I meant. Theft of stealing are the same thing, so drop the semantics card.

The point Lysander Spooner made on the wall of wisdom is a simple one. All any band of robbers needs to do is declare themselves a government. If you do not recognize the legitimacy of the government, then their theft is equal to that of a street gang.

As for violence, its the ultimate basis of any law.

Yeah mate, that is kind of the whole problem

And among its many justification is the stark reduction in violence when a 3rd party acts as a leviathan and monopolizes legitimate violence compared to when when individuals and tribes settle issues violently between themselves

False dilemma and false premise.

There is actually a whole lot more examples of peaceful conflict resolution outside the established law.

And the method selected by the majority of our people as the method by which order will be maintained in our society.

Except what we have is not order, but chaos. The system is a failure upon itself. An obvious logical contradiction.

You've merely stated it as an axiom and based your later assumptions on this fundamental assumption.

Seriously?

All affirmative positions are based on an axiom. You cannot begin a conversation without an axiom.

If you believe the axiom is false, then you call it out as a false premise and explain why the premise is false. Lol.... the intellectually dishonest.

 

[Onyx]

No, I mean the failed state without a functioning government bolstered by tax money of its citizens.

In other words, the exemplification of the failures of statism in an entity which has nominally survived the cycle of violence.

Somalia does not exist as a state anymore. The government like you pointed out, is a tax trap. The country itself has been carved up by the remainders of the Somali ruling class.

 

[Skylar]

I wonder what people in Somalia think of this discussion.

Ultimately any political system has to stand the tests of reality. Anarchy doesn't work. As there's no effective method of conflict resolution. And an anarchic civilization would be swallowed by a more centeralized one due to issues of specialization and focused goal making that anarchic civilizations just can't match.

Thus its relegated to communes that exist within a system of externally enforced laws, tiny blips in history, or the ivory tower of reality averse hypothetical.

Mandatory taxation and mandatory laws work. The system stands for centuries. Anarchy doesn't. Thus, in any reality based discussion of actual systems of governance, anarchy is moot. As its like a house made of wet spaghetti: it simply won't stand.

Mandatory anything does not work, see the third Reich

Except when it does. We've had mandatory taxation since before we were a nation. More than 225 years.

Mandatory taxation and mandatory laws work very well. Which is why virtually every nation on earth uses them. Anarchy doesn't. Which is why almost no nation on earth uses it.

Of course mandatory taxes and law's work good with irresponsible...
A large overbearing federal government breeds irresponsibility

Mandatory taxation and mandatory laws work well with civilizations. Those that use both continue. Those who don't.....don't.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Can I get an example of any place on the planet that runs on voluntary taxes !?!

Facts about colonial america.

The Continental Army was funded with no taxes. There were no social services. The law was mundane and trivial. There were no conventional police.

In other words, the good old days.

Bad old days. The army nearly mutinied three times, the officers once at Newburgh. Congress was corrupt as hell. No, the early days were not the good old days.

 

[JakeStarkey]

My Dad was a volunteer fireman in my hometown for 20 years joining other responsible citizens!

That's great.

The future of humanity comes when we start doing good things for each other without the expectation of reward or the usage of violence.

They ain't really "volunteers ". The get paid . They also go through a bunch of training and use all kinds of equipment. Paid for by taxes .

How do YOU KNOW? Were your around in the early 1950s in the Midwest in a small town with population of less then 1,000?
And as far as getting paid"???? The only pay any volunteer fireman got was a burial check if killed in the course of fighting a fire!
You are insulting millions of volunteer firefighters over 100s of years with that stupid comment!

You are insulting millions of Americans by thinking they want to live in your dream world.

 

[Onyx]

Mandatory taxation and mandatory laws work well with civilizations. Those that use both continue. Those who don't.....don't.

Based on what? The 99% of modern societies that used mandatory taxation and mandatory laws?

Analyze what came before and what still exists now in some places of the world. Human beings coexisting without states.

 

[Onyx]

You are insulting millions of Americans by thinking they want to live in your dream world.

It really does not matter what they want.

What matters is that they are holding us back.

 

[HnL]

No, I mean the failed state without a functioning government bolstered by tax money of its citizens.

In other words, the exemplification of the failures of statism in an entity which has nominally survived the cycle of violence.

Somalia does not exist as a state anymore. The government like you pointed out, is a tax trap. The country itself has been carved up by the remainders of the Somali ruling class.

No, as in you have no clue what your tax dollars are worth. Because if you hadn't paid them, and nobody else did either, you would probably have been killed or enslaved by now, given how poorly you comprehend the value of a functioning state.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Mandatory taxation and mandatory laws work well with civilizations. Those that use both continue. Those who don't.....don't.

Based on what? The 99% of modern societies that used mandatory taxation and mandatory laws?

Analyze what came before and what still exists now in some places of the world. Human beings coexisting without states.

Based on the rise of the nation state and the experience of the last 500 years.

 

[Rustic]

I wonder what people in Somalia think of this discussion.

Ultimately any political system has to stand the tests of reality. Anarchy doesn't work. As there's no effective method of conflict resolution. And an anarchic civilization would be swallowed by a more centeralized one due to issues of specialization and focused goal making that anarchic civilizations just can't match.

Thus its relegated to communes that exist within a system of externally enforced laws, tiny blips in history, or the ivory tower of reality averse hypothetical.

Mandatory taxation and mandatory laws work. The system stands for centuries. Anarchy doesn't. Thus, in any reality based discussion of actual systems of governance, anarchy is moot. As its like a house made of wet spaghetti: it simply won't stand.

Mandatory anything does not work, see the third Reich

Except when it does. We've had mandatory taxation since before we were a nation. More than 225 years.

Mandatory taxation and mandatory laws work very well. Which is why virtually every nation on earth uses them. Anarchy doesn't. Which is why almost no nation on earth uses it.

Of course mandatory taxes and law's work good with irresponsible...
A large overbearing federal government breeds irresponsibility

Mandatory taxation and mandatory laws work well with civilizations. Those that use both continue. Those who don't.....don't.

If the irresponsible make up the mandatory taxation and laws they don't work for the good... case in point frivolous lawsuits and our fucked up tax code. That being a direct result of an overbearing nonrepresentative monstrous federal government... lol

 

[JakeStarkey]

You are insulting millions of Americans by thinking they want to live in your dream world.

It really does not matter what they want.

What matters is that they are holding us back.

From what? Nirvana?

 

[Onyx]

Bad old days. The army nearly mutinied three times, the officers once at Newburgh. Congress was corrupt as hell. No, the early days were not the good old days.

As pointed out earlier, the continental army did not get even one year of organization or preparation, as it was in a continual state of warfare.

The continental congress was corrupt? There was very little to actually corrupt.

 

[Onyx]

From what? Nirvana?

No Disneyland, but something better than absolute degrading shit.

 

[Rustic]

Can I get an example of any place on the planet that runs on voluntary taxes !?!

Facts about colonial america.

The Continental Army was funded with no taxes. There were no social services. The law was mundane and trivial. There were no conventional police.

In other words, the good old days.

Bad old days. The army nearly mutinied three times, the officers once at Newburgh. Congress was corrupt as hell. No, the early days were not the good old days.

Socialism - responsible for two world wars and the EU... can't get any more fucked up than that. LOL

 

[JakeStarkey]

Bad old days. The army nearly mutinied three times, the officers once at Newburgh. Congress was corrupt as hell. No, the early days were not the good old days.

As pointed out earlier, the continental army did not get even one year of organization or preparation, as it was in a continual state of warfare.

You don't really get it.