Once again pointing out the elephant in the room

[Rustic]

No, I mean the failed state without a functioning government bolstered by tax money of its citizens.

In other words, the exemplification of the failures of statism in an entity which has nominally survived the cycle of violence.

Somalia does not exist as a state anymore. The government like you pointed out, is a tax trap. The country itself has been carved up by the remainders of the Somali ruling class.

No, as in you have no clue what your tax dollars are worth. Because if you hadn't paid them, and nobody else did either, you would probably have been killed or enslaved by now, given how poorly you comprehend the value of a functioning state.

Joke of the day… Functioning state

 

[Skylar]

Theft is the unlawful seizure of property. There's nothing unlawful about taxes. Nixing your fundamental premise. As taxes aren't theft.

It is pretty obvious what I meant. Theft of stealing are the same thing, so drop the semantics card.

Except that they aren't. As there's nothing unlawful about taxes. While there is most definitely something unlawful about theft.

Says who? Says us. As the people are the ultimate basis of our system of laws. Collectively, not individually.

The point Lysander Spooner made on the wall of wisdom is a simple one. All any band of robbers needs to do is declare themselves a government. If you do not recognize the legitimacy of the government, then their theft is equal to that of a street gang.

Again, begging the question. As your entire argument is premised on a government and a gang being identical. You have yet to factually establish that assumption. Making any argument based upon it unproven opinion backed by nothing.

As for violence, its the ultimate basis of any law.

Yeah mate, that is kind of the whole problem

Its the basis of conflict resolution in anarchy too, mate. Only it happens *much* more often than when the Hobbsian trap is imperfectly solved through the creation of a leviathan in the form of government with a monopoly on violence.

False dilemma and false premise.

Not if we use the axiom that life is valuable. Anarchy leads to more violence, more death, more conflict. As it uses the same basis of conflict resolution as mandatory law: violence. Only much, much more of it.

Dramatically lower conflict and death is a superb justification for a system of government and its legitimacy. And I'm more than willing to stand by the axiom of the value of human life.

There is actually a whole lot more examples of peaceful conflict resolution outside the established law.

There's tons of examples of peaceful conflict resolution within the establishment of law. Violence is the ultimate basis of law as it is the fall back when all other methods fail.

Your 'peaceful conflict resolution' uses the same fall back when peaceful methods don't work. Anarchy uses violence to resolve conflicts too.

 

[Onyx]

No, as in you have no clue what your tax dollars are worth.

Nothing to me.

A lot to the politicians, generals, and crony capitalists.

Because if you hadn't paid them, and nobody else did either, you would probably have been killed or enslaved by now, given how poorly you comprehend the value of a functioning state.

1. States are responcible for more deaths than anything in history. Even with all wars combined (which are almost always caused by states), rulers have killed more of their own.

2. States were universally responsible for maintaining enslavement. There was more to fear from armies and police than plantation guards. Not to mention that all human beings are enslaved right now to their government.

3. The state is not functional. What crock shit. It has been a dysfunctional mess since day one.

 

[Rustic]

Actually tax evasion is a patriotic thing to do... The federal government should not be depending on a success tax for anything… anyway the top 10% pay most of the nations bills... sadly

 

[HnL]

Joke of the day… Functioning state

You have to be in the deepest state of denial ever to conclude the greatest and richest nation ever is not functioning.

 

[Skylar]

Ultimately any political system has to stand the tests of reality. Anarchy doesn't work. As there's no effective method of conflict resolution. And an anarchic civilization would be swallowed by a more centeralized one due to issues of specialization and focused goal making that anarchic civilizations just can't match.

Thus its relegated to communes that exist within a system of externally enforced laws, tiny blips in history, or the ivory tower of reality averse hypothetical.

Mandatory taxation and mandatory laws work. The system stands for centuries. Anarchy doesn't. Thus, in any reality based discussion of actual systems of governance, anarchy is moot. As its like a house made of wet spaghetti: it simply won't stand.

Mandatory anything does not work, see the third Reich

Except when it does. We've had mandatory taxation since before we were a nation. More than 225 years.

Mandatory taxation and mandatory laws work very well. Which is why virtually every nation on earth uses them. Anarchy doesn't. Which is why almost no nation on earth uses it.

Of course mandatory taxes and law's work good with irresponsible...
A large overbearing federal government breeds irresponsibility

Mandatory taxation and mandatory laws work well with civilizations. Those that use both continue. Those who don't.....don't.

If the irresponsible make up the mandatory taxation and laws they don't work for the good... case in point frivolous lawsuits and our fucked up tax code. That being a direct result of an overbearing nonrepresentative monstrous federal government... lol

Your premise for *why* mandatory taxation and mandatory laws work is certainly open to debate. But the reality of it working as a system of government isn't really debatable. As 225+ years of our nation's existence demonstrates.

And that's the fundamental difference between a system of anarchy and one of mandatory taxation and mandatory laws: the latter works. The former doesn't.

 

[Rustic]

Joke of the day… Functioning state

You have to be in the deepest state of denial ever to conclude the greatest and richest nation ever is not functioning.

The nation with the greatest debt in the history of the world... sure. Lol

 

[Rustic]

Mandatory anything does not work, see the third Reich

Except when it does. We've had mandatory taxation since before we were a nation. More than 225 years.

Mandatory taxation and mandatory laws work very well. Which is why virtually every nation on earth uses them. Anarchy doesn't. Which is why almost no nation on earth uses it.

Of course mandatory taxes and law's work good with irresponsible...
A large overbearing federal government breeds irresponsibility

Mandatory taxation and mandatory laws work well with civilizations. Those that use both continue. Those who don't.....don't.

If the irresponsible make up the mandatory taxation and laws they don't work for the good... case in point frivolous lawsuits and our fucked up tax code. That being a direct result of an overbearing nonrepresentative monstrous federal government... lol

Your premise for *why* mandatory taxation and mandatory laws work is certainly open to debate. But the reality of it working as a system of government isn't really debatable. As 225+ years of our nation's existence demonstrates.

And that's the fundamental difference between a system of anarchy and one of mandatory taxation and mandatory laws: the latter works. The former doesn't.

You do know that the person/country in debt is a slave, you're delusional if thinking this is a functioning state.
Do you know what the definition of a banana republic is?

 

[Onyx]

Except that they aren't. As there's nothing unlawful about taxes. While there is most definitely something unlawful about theft.

You are slow to catch on.

Legal does not equate to moral. That is the whole point.

Says who? Says us. As the people are the ultimate basis of our system of laws. Collectively, not individually.

Ha, what a load of crock. Nietzche, would you take it from here?

You have zero power. The ruling class is not going to allow you to vote away their power, but they will gladly spend tons of money on politicians and media to keep you as their little system whore.

Again, begging the question. As your entire argument is premised on a government and a gang being identical. You have yet to factually establish that assumption. Making any argument based upon it unproven opinion backed by nothing.

False, as I provided justification.

You skipped right over my comparison of a government protection racket and a street gang protection racket.

Its the basis of conflict resolution in anarchy too, mate.

You just showed that you have zero understanding of anarchist thought.

The capacity for violence in anarchism is that it may only be used in self defense. Using violence to enforce your will is the foundation of the state, and therefore rejected by anarchists.

Seriously read a book.

Anarchy leads to more violence, more death, more conflict.

Baseless conjecture.

I maintain the exact opposite.

As it uses the same basis of conflict resolution as mandatory law: violence. Only much, much more of it.

Again, all anarchists reject violence not used in self defense, otherwise they would not be anarchists.

Read an essay or two.

Dramatically lower conflict and death is a superb justification for a system of government and its legitimacy. And I'm more than willing to stand by the axiom of the value of human life.

Terribly naive.

The state is the number one cause of conflict (war) and death (famine/democide/exploitation)

There's tons of examples of peaceful conflict resolution within the establishment of law.

You just contradicted yourself, dumbass.

Earlier you said the basis for law was violence. All laws are enforced using violence, and therefore there is no peaceful resolution within the framework of the system.

 

[Onyx]

I love it when idiots talk about things they are uneducated on.

 

[HnL]

Joke of the day… Functioning state

You have to be in the deepest state of denial ever to conclude the greatest and richest nation ever is not functioning.

The nation with the greatest debt in the history of the world... sure. Lol

Totally irrelevant.

 

[HnL]

I love it when idiots talk about things they are uneducated on.

Like ending sentences with prepositions?

 

[Onyx]

You have to be in the deepest state of denial ever to conclude the greatest and richest nation ever is not functioning.

It is functioning on death, greed, and exploitation.

The state is an inhuman monster eating away at our liberties and conditioning our minds to obey.

 

[Onyx]

I love it when idiots talk about things they are uneducated on.

Like ending sentences with prepositions?

Don't be a grammar nazi.

So uncool man....

 

[Rustic]

Joke of the day… Functioning state

You have to be in the deepest state of denial ever to conclude the greatest and richest nation ever is not functioning.

The nation with the greatest debt in the history of the world... sure. Lol

Totally irrelevant.

OK you have one penny but you owe $50,000... you're drowning in liabilities. Apparently you can't understand elementary school math... lol

 

[Rustic]

I love it when idiots talk about things they are uneducated on.

Like ending sentences with prepositions?

Don't be a grammar nazi.

So uncool man....

Being a grammar Nazi is always a deflection... a sign of losing an argument

 

[healthmyths]

Can I get an example of any place on the planet that runs on voluntary taxes !?!

Facts about colonial america.

The Continental Army was funded with no taxes. There were no social services. The law was mundane and trivial. There were no conventional police.

In other words, the good old days.

Bad old days. The army nearly mutinied three times, the officers once at Newburgh. Congress was corrupt as hell. No, the early days were not the good old days.

Socialism - responsible for two world wars and the EU... can't get any more fucked up than that. LOL

Right...

 

[HnL]

I love it when idiots talk about things they are uneducated on.

Like ending sentences with prepositions?

Don't be a grammar nazi.

So uncool man....

When you are berating people for being poorly educated, you ought to avoid fifth grader grammatical errors.

 

[Onyx]

When you are berating people for being poorly educated, you ought to avoid fifth grader grammatical errors.

Grammatical purity is a farcry from intellectual honesty.

 

[HnL]

Grammatical purity is a farcry from intellectual honesty.

In a world that has nuclear weapons, smart bombs, and tanks that easily go 60 mph, the premise of your OP is intellectual failure.